Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today we are talking about unwanted sexual attraction. By unwanted sexual attraction, what do I mean? I mean being sexually attracted to someone or something that you would rather not be attracted to because acting on that attraction would go against your values.

Speaker 1: 0:40

Many men in our community find themselves sexually attracted to other men. Others find themselves sexually attracted to children, teenagers, certain types of women, certain genres of porn or objects or items of clothing. In my life, unwanted sexual attraction has always focused on braces and orthodontic appliances. I don't want to want these things. They are unwanted because, even though I find braces very arousing, that arousal is connected to deeper desires that often go against acting on that arousal. So many of us find ourselves with arousal that is in conflict with our deeper desires and our true values. And for men outgrowing porn, it is absolutely essential to understand unwanted sexual attraction.

Speaker 1: 1:51

Now, everyone experiences unwanted sexual attraction at some level. For example, if you're married, even if you find your wife very attractive, you might find yourself attracted to her sister or to one of your co -workers and life would be so much easier if you weren't attracted to them. But the fact is that you are, and in many cases unwanted sexual attraction is often no big deal. You think to yourself oh, that person is really beautiful, wow, what a great body. I really enjoy this part of this person's body or this part of this person's personality, and then you're able to move on. But for men outgrowing porn, unwanted sexual attraction is not casual or flippant flippant. It's an extremely serious matter because if I act on my unwanted sexual attraction, whether in porn or in person, I could lose my marriage, I could lose my family, I could lose my job, my ministry, my whole life as I know. It may depend on what I choose to do with unwanted sexual attraction, whether that attraction might be toward men, girls, women, objects, fantasies, fetishes, types of pornography.

Speaker 1: 3:15

We all experience unwanted sexual attraction and tonight I am going to answer this question. How do I understand unwanted sexual attraction from a Christian perspective? If I experience unwanted sexual attraction, perhaps even exclusively, what do I truly need? How should I live my life? What are my options? If you're wondering why, I think I'm qualified to talk about this man.

Speaker 1: 3:42

I have been wrestling with this topic for 15 years. I know what it's like to have a love-hate relationship. With my sexuality and my fetish for braces. I've helped hundreds of men process their unwanted sexual attractions. I've read dozens of books on this topic and I feel frustrated that what I am believing is not represented in the literature. Yet I find myself hearing about perspectives on LGBTQ issues and never quite feeling like they fully fit with what I think. So tonight I'm going to with what I think. So tonight I'm going to share what I think, not just about same-sex sexual attraction, but really any unwanted sexual attraction.

Speaker 1: 4:36

I do realize this is a very delicate, polarized, politicized conversation when it comes to LGBTQ issues, questions of sexual identity and orientation, and I feel so anxious about addressing this topic that I could throw up right now. But I feel compelled to speak out because there's so much noise out there between side A, side B, side X, side Y. It can be so confusing. In this episode I'm going to cut through the noise. First, I will summarize the existing perspectives within Christianity on unwanted sexual attraction. These perspectives are primarily focused on dealing with being sexually attracted to members of the same sex, but I think we need to have a wider conversation that applies to everyone, and I'll say more about why. In the end, you will hear a new perspective that I have been developing in conversation with other husband material leaders like Henry Brown and Doug Carpenter, that you might call Side D. I'm calling it the sexual development model, a model that applies not only to LGBTQ issues but to any type of unwanted sexual attraction.

Speaker 1: 6:00

This episode is going to be long. It's probably going to be controversial. I'm treating it as an experiment. This is a first draft. I realize I could be wrong about some things here and I hope my perspective will continue to be refined as time goes on.

Speaker 1: 6:27

To thank Jason Thompson of Portland Fellowship for his work and his chart, which is called Four Views on Christian Doctrine, identity and Homosexuality. I had a wonderful conversation with Jason where we talked about his chart and I asked more questions. If you would like to see Jason's chart, go down to the link in the show notes and you will find it, as well as another document which I found to be very helpful called the Five Streams Differing Responses to LGBTQ by Dr Linda Seiler. I so appreciate Jason's work and Linda's work and the movement of Christians who are trying to think about these things faithfully and carefully, with an openness to the amazing influence that God can have on our sexuality and that healing and discipleship can have, wanting to think through ethical issues, psychological issues, spiritual issues. Sexuality is connected to everything and this work is so difficult, it's not easy. So thank you to Jason and Linda for creating some resources that have helped me create a new resource, a sexual development model. Well, gentlemen, I have created my own chart, which you can download at husbandmaterialcom slash SDM, which stands for the sexual development model.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Before I present this new perspective, the sexual development model, you are going to hear the sexual development model. You are going to hear about some of the other sides and streams represented in Jason's chart and Linda's chart. Some of you are probably very familiar with this conversation in these charts already, and for some of you, I'm guessing that this conversation is new. So I'm going to catch you up on what people have been saying. While talking about different Christian views on same-sex sexual attraction, sssa You're going to hear about side A, side B, side Y, side X and then, if you want me to be on a side, I'm going to choose side D. While reading through these different sides. I saw value in each one and also limitations in each one. The sexual development model acknowledges the strength of each side and that each side has something that we can learn from, and also the limitations of each side and how each side has something missing, and I think this model creates space for all of that. At least, that's my hope.

Speaker 1: 9:26

We're going to start with a brief overview of each side. Side A might be summarized as affirming, affirming and celebrating same-sex union. Side B might be summarized as be celibate, viewing same-sex union and sexual activity as against the moral code of Christianity and primarily focused on obeying that moral code, and I'll get more into detail about it later. And I'll get more into detail about it later. Side X refers to what many have called the ex-gay movement, and I'm going to specify two streams within that movement which are very different from one another. And side Y might be summarized as a new identity, wanting to emphasize identity in Christ over identity in sexual attraction. Side D refers to development, growth, discipleship, becoming mature, and before I can truly explain what that is and why it's different, we need to do a deep dive into each of the existing sides If you want to learn more about what each side generally teaches. I would recommend checking out Jason's chart, linda's chart. Here's the purpose of my chart. I just want to summarize each one and then highlight the strengths, the limitations and a key takeaway that we can learn from each one.

Speaker 1: 11:11

Let's start with side A. The core teaching of side A, or the stream of affirming same-sex sexual activity, is to celebrate your sexuality, to see it as a good thing, to bless it, to go for it or, as Jason Thompson would say, to revel in it. And the relationship goal of people on this side generally is a same-sex union, whether that's monogamous or not. The goal is to release your sexuality and do what your unwanted sexual attraction wants you to do. You might not even call it unwanted sexual attraction in this side unwanted sexual attraction in this side. Some of you are probably not going to be very happy that I can find strengths in this side, but here's what I see as the strengths.

Speaker 1: 12:14

Side A promotes openness and honesty and letting go of toxic shame. The idea of coming out of the closet, of being real, vulnerable and authentic about your sexual thoughts and feelings is good. It's good to be honest, it's good to be open and you know, side A is actually doing a pretty good job of trying to teach kids about sexuality from a young age. I disagree with a lot of what they're teaching, but we have something to learn from their approach to wanting to get sex education into mainstream places like schools and homes from a young age. We need sexuality education from a young age. We need to be able to talk about it, and side A is talking about it publicly, openly and here's the most important thing In many cases without shame.

Speaker 1: 13:22

It's just normal to talk about sexuality. It's just normal to talk about being sexually attracted to different types of people or different types of things. There's less fear around it. There's less shame around it. We need that. So I see so much value, value in friends I know who affirm and bless same-sex unions, in being real, in letting go of shame, because shame is one of the major reasons why so many men continue coming back to porn again and again. So wouldn't it be wonderful if we carried less shame? Here are the limitations, though. With that lack of shame and all that openness and honesty, I have ethical issues with Side A.

Speaker 1: 14:20

From a traditional, historic Christian perspective, I think it's overly permissive and I'm not just talking about same-sex unions here. I think unwanted sexual attraction in general needs boundaries, and I don't see enough boundaries in this stream, in this side. Not as much definition of what's okay and what's not okay, not just for men with men or women with women, but conversations are increasingly going towards polyamory and adults and children having sexual activity together, and I think that the permissiveness of saying hey, celebrate your sexuality, don't be ashamed of it, can go off track when it doesn't have enough boundaries about what's truly healthy, good and beautiful according to scripture, according to historic Christian teaching. Oftentimes people on side A mislabel or malign other views as conversion therapy. It's often seen that any view other than side A is not accepting enough, not affirming enough, and so I think there's some major limitations there.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Here's the key takeaway I want all of us to learn from side A your sexual thoughts, thoughts, feelings and attractions are not bad. Notice how I didn't say your sexual behaviors are not bad. I said your sexual thoughts, feelings and attractions are not bad. Let me say it another way they're not sinful. We know that Jesus was tempted in every way, yet without sin. There is a difference between noticing beauty and choosing lust. Lust is a posture of taking and consuming another person. Love is a posture of sharing, receiving and giving with another person. Love is a posture of sharing, receiving and giving with another person, and it can be loving to look at another person, notice attraction and beauty and then say a blessing over them, pray for them, move on.

Speaker 1: 17:04

There is nothing wrong with feeling attracted to someone, no matter who that person is. There is nothing wrong with having a sexual urge to do something that goes against your values. That's a feeling in your body, to use the language of IFS and internal family systems. Unwanted sexual attraction is a part of you. It's a feeling. Emotions are feelings and as a society, we generally believe that emotions are not bad. In the same way, I think we need to all get on the same page, that sexual feelings are not bad. They're like emotions. What matters is what you do with them. Feelings are not bad. They're like emotions. What matters is what you do with them.

Speaker 1: 17:57

And from a Christian IFS perspective, we can bless and appreciate unwanted sexual attraction without indulging it. We can welcome those thoughts that we would rather not have. We don't have to attack them or avoid them. We can relate to them with curiosity and compassion, as I teach at Husband Material. It doesn't mean we need to let them take control of our behavior. This is huge for so many men. So many men are surprised and amazed that, yes, it is possible to appreciate and bless and welcome whatever sexual attractions you have without doing what those attractions are moving you to do. Just like if you have children, you love your kids, you delight in your kids, even when they want to do things that go against your values, even when they hurt each other or they want to do something that you know would be bad for them and for others. They're kids. A developmental approach in that instance is to say of course my kid wants to hit his sibling. Of course my kid wants to eat all the candy in the candy jar. Of course my kid wants to sexually experiment. He's a kid. We need to have that same posture with ourselves and say whatever I'm feeling, thinking, wanting, craving sexually, it's not bad and there is a way to celebrate your sexuality without giving yourself over to whatever it wants you to do. Okay, we did one side, let's keep going.

Speaker 1: 20:01

Side B, what Linda Seiler calls the stream of accommodation, has the core teaching of obey God, and for most people on side B, they interpret that to mean be celibate, remain single for your whole life, don't get into same-sex sexual activity. Same-sex sexual activity. Within side B, there is increasing awareness of what's called mixed orientation marriage, and this stream is often viewing same-sex sexual attraction actually in a very similar way that side A views it. Both side A and side B have an assumption that same-sex sexual attraction is inborn, ingrained. In other words, I was born this way and side A would say celebrate that, indulge that, go, act on that. Side B would say don't.

Speaker 1: 21:14

A man commented on one of my YouTube videos recently and said if you don't embrace what we're calling sidesy Day, then you are essentially putting yourself in a dark room alone for the rest of your life. And that is exactly how many of you guys feel about this thought of not having same-sex sexual relationships or not having gay porn or not having your unwanted sexual attractions fulfilled. It can feel like death, like death. It can feel like resigning myself to be alone, to living the rest of my life in a dark room, alone, in a corner, in despair, and that is where I actually see offering some strengths that we need to appreciate.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Side B and some of the proponents of it have been creating plausibility structures within which lifelong singleness can actually make sense and be a viable, healthy way of life Houses where people live together and do life together. Communities where people see each other on a much more regular basis than we usually get in church with a once a week Sunday morning service. Get in church with a once a week Sunday morning service. Side B has acknowledged that singleness is a valid state of life and also our society is not set up for single people to thrive. So if we want to give people a viable path to a healthy, connected life path to a healthy, connected life we need to have more community. We need to have stronger friendships. We need to have more everyday intimacy and I love how a lot of side B people are emphasizing that Not all of them are, but I think we all need that. But I think we all need that With whatever your sexual context is.

Speaker 1: 23:48

If you're single, if you're divorced, if you're not married, being a sexual person can just be discouraging. You can feel like I have no outlet. You can feel like I have no place to put all this sexual energy. Sexuality is our engine for intimacy. It's not ultimately about sex. It's about connection and belonging and attachment, and Side B has acknowledged that if we're going to tell people to obey God and be celibate, we need to give them a way to do that. That's better than just living the rest of your life in a dark room alone. We need community, we need friendship, we need the church. Essentially, here are some limitations that I see in side B.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Many side B Christians might drift towards side A might drift towards side A. For example, if two men decide to form a covenant friendship with each other. They live together, they eat together, they might have almost everything that a married couple would have, except for sexual activity and a ring on their fingers. To me, this seems like the closest thing to side A without actually crossing the line. So it's not surprising to me when men who find themselves on side B often renounce it and give up and go to side A. Maybe they're tired of sitting in a dark room alone, so to speak, or maybe they're trying to pursue non-sexual friendships and finding that it keeps getting difficult. It keeps drifting in the direction of a same-sex union, and many Side B Christians identify as gay or as LGBTQ.

Speaker 1: 26:01

The Side B proponents often also don't see marriage as a valid option for those who experience same-sex sexual attraction, and there's something a little bit sad about that, Because I know so many men in the husband material community who have wonderful marriages. Their unwanted sexual attraction has not kept them from that. If we said that anybody who experiences unwanted sexual attraction shouldn't get married, then we would all be disqualified. What about me with my sexual fetish for braces? This is one of the reasons why I don't fully resonate with these different sides and these different charts, because where do I fit in all this? In my late teens and early 20s, at one point I genuinely thought that I would probably be single for the rest of my life. I had very little hope for marriage. I felt despair, and it was a wonderful healing journey for me to realize the key takeaway of Side B, which is this Healthy sexuality does not require you to be married or coupled. You can have connection, intimacy, belonging, secure attachment, deep friendships, people who know you and love you, separate from romance. Wow, that is a truth that we all need to hear. So there's side A and side B, which are primarily ethical perspectives, and initially those were the only sides that I heard people talking about.

Speaker 1: 27:53

There has been more and more disagreement and differentiation in the last few years between side B and what might be called side Y, the stream of mortification. The core teaching of side Y is that if you experience unwanted sexual attraction, you need to repent and believe the gospel. Unwanted sexual attraction is seen as a sin issue. It's actually seen as sinful, and this is one of the places where I would disagree. Remember when I said Jesus was tempted in every way and yet without sin. Our feelings are not sinful. It's what we do with them and how we respond to our feelings or react to them that can go against what's right and good Inside. Why, generally, the relationship goal is opposite sex union, in other words, traditional heterosexual marriage.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Here's what I see as the main strength of side Y. Sexual attraction is a fickle, fragile foundation for your identity. For your identity. Both side A and side B find a sense of identity in being attracted to a specific type of person sexually. Side Y says that's not who you are. How you feel is not who you are. What you're sexually attracted to is not who you are. It's just a feeling. And that's good news. And I remind you of that good news every week on this podcast when I say always remember you are God's beloved son. In you, he is well-pleased. No matter what you've done, no matter what's been done to you, no matter who you're sexually attracted to, no matter what turns you on or turns you off, you need a foundation that's bigger than just your feelings, to build your life on the best foundation, for that is your identity in Christ. I love that.

Speaker 1: 30:17

Here's where I cringe at Side Y. They often over-spiritualize sexual issues, not taking into account psychology, neuroscience, biology, our social context, childhood origin stories, trauma. This is seen as a sin issue, and if it's a sin issue, then they have the standard solution for sin, which is repent and believe the gospel. And while spiritual formation is a part of this journey, we start to go off track when we reduce it to that and it can often feel like pray the gay away. So side Y can fall into spiritual bypass and trying to put a spiritual solution on what is oftentimes an emotional wound.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Sexual temptation is not sin, and when you experience unwanted sexual attraction, you can view yourself as a human who has feelings, and sometimes those feelings want you to do crazy things. I think Side Y often promotes purity, culture, fear and shame over sexual thoughts and feelings. Yet the beauty of this side can be captured in one sentence your sexuality is not who you are. It's a part of you. I'm coming back to the IFS perspective that we all have parts and unwanted sexual attraction is a part of you. Against side A, I would say your sexuality is a part of you. It's not who you are. Against side Y, I would say your sexuality is a part of you. You don't need to repent from it. Hope this is making sense.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Side Y was ultimately a branching off of side X, which is much more nuanced than most people assume. Within side X I have two streams conversion and transformation. Conversion from what we might call the ex-gay era is what Side A would call conversion therapy. I actually think that it's really important for us to distinguish between these two streams within side X because they're very, very different. The conversion stream of side X teaches you to change your sexuality. If you experience unwanted sexual attraction, try to change it or remove it or replace it. The goal here is, if you're homosexual, to become heterosexual. The relationship goal is opposite sex union. I see some serious limitations with this stream. I have ethical issues with the conversion stream of side X because it is internally violent Trying to change your sexuality in the sense of removing or replacing unwanted sexual attraction is often based on self-hatred, shame, fear, control.

Speaker 1: 33:50

This stream, I think, is responsible for much of the movement we have seen from people who tried the traditional, historic Christian sexual ethic and realized it wasn't making anything better. And realized it wasn't making anything better Because when you try to resist unwanted sexual attraction, you actually intensify it. What you resist persists. So if you continue to try to stop being attracted to certain people and to start being attracted to other people certain people and to start being attracted to other people, you are fighting a self-defeating battle. That is really, really discouraging, devastating, heartbreaking. Some of you have been on a quest to annihilate your unwanted sexual attraction for years. It's really sad to me From an IFS perspective. Your managers are waging war against your firefighters and the exiles are suffering because of that.

Speaker 1: 35:06

Because of that, on the one hand, there is a strength and a goodness in wanting change, in the sense of personal growth, the sense of relational support to meet your life goals and, of course, being open to divine intervention, because anything is possible with God. And also, whatever type of growth or support or healing you pursue should be based on self-acceptance, self-compassion and kindness rather than self-contempt and self-condemnation and fighting a frustrating, exhausting battle that you can never win. Because, guess what? Unwanted sexual attraction is a part of you and it's always going to be a part of you. It can be less intense, less frequent, it can be less disturbing. It can be less disturbing, it can be less controlling, and it's always going to be a part of you.

Speaker 1: 36:18

We need to learn how to love and accept all parts of us, all of our thoughts and feelings. I think that is the posture of Jesus toward us. I think that is the posture of Jesus toward us Always kind, always loving, always gracious, always gentle, always tender. And we are so harsh with ourselves, we are so critical of ourselves. We beat ourselves up. We should all over ourselves. We beat ourselves up, we should all over ourselves. And that's what I see with so many men who come to me for help. They're in this stream and it is eating them alive.

Speaker 1: 37:04

Yes, it's true that your sexuality can shift and evolve, but not based on obligation or forcing something to happen. Those shifts happen naturally, spontaneously, and sometimes not at all, but it's always part of a bigger story of development and maturity and growing up that I'm going to talk about a little later. I can sympathize with so many people who are suspicious of any side other than side A, because it sounds like the conversion stream and there is a much better, healthier, stronger, more mature and helpful stream within SideX that can be called the transformation stream. This is what I now see more ministries and clinicians and professionals teaching that ultimately, what we need to do is heal our sexual brokenness. The problem is we often view things as needing healing that actually don't need healing. Here's what I mean.

Speaker 1: 38:33

This concept of healing can easily be misunderstood and confused with conversion therapy. If you think I need to heal from my unwanted sexual attraction, no, no, no, I'm not saying you need to heal from it. That's the conversion stream, trying to change your sexuality. I'm saying that your unwanted sexual attraction may be a clue to deeper healing, relationally, emotionally, maybe even psychologically, emotionally, maybe even psychologically. Unwanted sexual attraction can be a symptom of trauma, not always. Yet underneath unwanted sexual attraction, we often find childhood origin stories of being neglected, abused, enmeshed, oftentimes abandoned by fathers, enmeshed with mothers, alienated from peers, and the transformation stream is open to exploring those stories, open to trauma therapy. And the goal of this therapy is not to heal from unwanted sexual attraction, or even to heal unwanted sexual attraction, but to heal whatever's underneath it. The goal is healing. The outcome might be a shift in what you experience sexually, and I have experienced many shifts in my unwanted sexual attraction that I've described in an episode called how my Sexual Fetish Shifted Over Time. So I see a lot of strength in this transformation stream, as long as we get clear that we are not healing our sexual thoughts and feelings, because those are not broken. Remember they're just like emotions.

Speaker 1: 40:36

God created us to experience sexual arousal and he didn't give us some kind of exclusive thing where we can only be aroused by our wife. So many guys are thinking to themselves if I could only be aroused by just my wife. Well, no one is only aroused by just their wife. Everybody experiences unwanted sexual attraction to some degree. People in the transformation stream will sometimes say God's design is for man and woman to be married and to experience sexual arousal toward their opposite sex partner. The relationship goal here is opposite sex union. However, there are a couple of limitations with this. One is that I disagree that God's design is for us to experience sexual attraction only to the person that we're married to. God's design is that your body will be aroused through touch, through stimulation, through certain types of emotional energy, regardless of the source. It doesn't matter who's touching you, it's going to create arousal. This often creates an internal conflict between arousal and desire. God designed our bodies to experience sexual attraction period period. Our role is to become mature in how we handle that attraction, wanting to fuel it in the directions that align with our values and wanting to not fuel it in other directions. Role in order to fulfill a moral code of sexual union in a marriage between opposite sex partners only requires stewardship of that attraction.

Speaker 1: 42:42

Within the transformation stream, I still see people often promoting marriage as the ideal outcome, seeing that as God's ultimate design, maybe not validating singleness as much as side B does. After all, singleness is going to be our eternal state, according to Jesus. According to Jesus, there will be no marriage in the resurrection other than marriage to God. We as the church, the bride being married to the lamb. Both singleness and marriage are meant to show the love of God to the world and to be a picture of marriage between Christ and the church. In this stream of transformation, we need to be very clear that healing is ultimately relational, that sexual brokenness needs to be defined, and singleness is just as valid as marriage.

Speaker 1: 43:44

Here's what I see as the key takeaway of the transformation stream, and it gives me a lot of hope. Your sexual story makes sense and God wants to redeem it all. Your unwanted sexual attraction is not random. There's a story behind it, there's a logic to it, even if you don't understand what that is and even if we never understand what that is. It's not magical, it's manageable and it's not beyond the redemptive reach of Jesus to come into your life and use that unwanted sexual attraction to draw you closer to himself, to draw you closer to other people, to lead you into becoming the person he made you to be.

Speaker 1: 44:22

Unwanted sexual attraction is not a barrier to being loved by God and to having a great life. It's a bridge, and the more I share my unwanted sexual attraction with other people, the more I find myself connected to them, the more I find myself undoing shame, facing fear, reversing the curse of loneliness and isolation. Reversing the curse of loneliness and isolation and unwanted sexual attraction can become a gift, in the sense that any human experience can become a gift. It doesn't have to be a curse, and Jesus is here to make all things new, and I believe that one day, when we are completely transformed in the new heavens and the new earth, that our sexual attraction and arousal, if it still exists, is going to be completely aligned with our deepest desires, when our transformation into becoming exactly like Jesus is complete, it will be impossible to sin. We won't have to manage our emotions, at least not the same way with effort that we do now. In IFS terms, our parts will be unburdened, our wounds will be healed and we get to experience a taste of that here and now, and the transformation stream is moving toward that, and I love that.

Speaker 1: 45:59

So there you have it a summary of side A, side B, side Y, side X, what I see as the strengths and limitations of each one and what I'm calling the sexual development model. Maybe side D, for short, is not really a side. It's a lens through which we can view each of these sides as being part of a bigger picture. Each side, I think, has some value for sexual development. We need to celebrate our sexuality has some value for sexual development. We need to celebrate our sexuality. Shame doesn't belong on our sexuality. We need to learn how to be honest and let go of shame, like we see so many people doing in Side A. We need to learn how to validate singleness and create strong structures for community, like Side B is doing. We need to emphasize identity in Christ over identity in sexual attraction, like side Y is doing. We need to be open to growth and support and divide intervention and also curious and compassionate for the childhood origin stories behind our unwanted sexual attraction. Like we see in the transformation stream side X ministries. Like we see in the transformation stream Side X ministries.

Speaker 1: 47:11

Here is the core teaching within which all of these strengths are contained Become a sexually mature adult. Side A and Side B both assume that same-sex sexual attraction is there from birth and you're born this way. Side A is saying we need to get back to that, you know, revert to the way you were born. Side B is saying, well, this is the way I was born, but I need to always go against it. Andrew is commenting that side Y just says that same-sex sexual attraction is from original sin, so also a born-this-way perspective. In a sense, side X assumes that I was born without same-sex sexual attraction, so I need to get back to that somehow. Back to that somehow. Side X would assume that same-sex sexual attraction happens in life experiences, sometimes through trauma, sometimes through neglect, abuse or sometimes through other ways, and there's still an impulse within Inside Ex to go back to this original state Inside D.

Speaker 1: 48:36

When I say become a sexually mature adult, I am saying that everyone is designed to achieve a state that we were not born with and that state is maturity. And all of us are moving forward toward that state, not reverting back to being gay, not reverting back to being straight, moving forward into becoming mature, sexually, emotionally, spiritually. And our goal is not necessarily marriage and our goal is not necessarily marriage and it's not necessarily singleness. Our goal is freedom from problematic sexual behavior. So here's my point Rather than try to go back to God's original design that appears to be like from birth, whether that's opposite sex attraction or same-sex attraction, I actually think God's design is not something we have at birth. It's something we grow into, something we develop into.

Speaker 1: 49:44

A while ago on the Husband Material podcast, I had Bill Herring on the show talking about his problematic sexual behavior framework. He asks five questions to assess problematic sexual behavior. One commitment Are you keeping your promises? Two values Are you okay with what you're doing? Three responsibility Are you protecting others? Four negative consequences Is everything okay? And five control Are you in control of yourself? Control Are you in control of yourself? I find these questions to be very helpful and our goal relationally whether you're single or married, I think should be freedom from behavior that falls into those five categories. Now your ethical perspective or your values might differ from mine. From a developmental perspective, I'm not concerned with helping you get to some final destination of where I think sexual perfection lies. My concern is for your growth, for you to go from where you are right now to the next step, to becoming a little bit more like Jesus every day. And if your version of that is something I disagree with, that's not going to stop me from connecting with you and being in relationship with you.

Speaker 1: 51:05

In the sexual development model. I'm not trying to convince everyone that my side is the right side. Rather, I'm meeting people in the middle of whatever side they're on and wanting to help them grow a little bit more in character in Christ-likeness, even if their definition of that is different from mine. So my relationship goal for people is not necessarily a certain version of union or celibacy, it's freedom from behaviors that get in the way of what our sexuality was created for. Here's the strength of the sexual development model it creates space for the strengths of all sides, for the strengths of all sides, and the sexual development model applies to all unwanted sexual attraction, arousal and behavior. So this is not just about LGBTQ issues, this is for everyone and this is a major frustration that I've had with the existing paradigms For me, having a sexual fetish for braces.

Speaker 1: 52:18

I never fully fit into any of the sides Because I'm not trying to get back to a state where I'm not obsessed with braces and I'm not trying to just go with the state of being obsessed with braces. My fetish for braces as something that I experienced from a young age that also took shape in my development, especially in middle school when all the kids around me had braces. This is really the core of how I came up with this model. I needed something to fit my sexuality that got stunted when I was 13 years old. That doesn't necessarily fully align with same-sex sexual attraction and at the same time, I wouldn't describe myself as straight. In fact, I don't think anyone's straight. I think we are all created with a sexuality that's good and beautiful and we all experience sexual brokenness. No one's straight the main limitation of the sexual development model right now. Is that not enough?

Speaker 1: 53:29

People are going into detail, articulating exactly what sexual development is Like. How does it work? What are the stages of sexual development? If we're saying this should be the umbrella over everything, well, don't we need to define it more? The closest thing I found to a summary of stages of sexual development was a DVD from like the 80s by doctors Clifford and Joyce Penner, where they described stages of sexual development from birth through adulthood. This way In infancy there's a stage of healthy attachment, learning safe touch, learning vocab words and learning to talk openly about sex and sexuality is a developmental stage. As you get older, into school age, kids, curiosity is another stage of sexual development. Learning, blessing that my body is good and also boundaries that I need to respect the bodies of others. Experimentation and adventure is another healthy, normal stage of sexual development, especially in pre-adolescence and adolescence. And the stage at which the Penners say that you reach sexual maturity in adulthood is what they call mature management. Adulthood is what they call mature management. That is the state to which I believe we should all aspire to maturely manage our sexuality, not just to indulge it, not just to fight a battle against it. Being an adult means maturely managing it.

Speaker 1: 55:18

More research is needed, more books need to be written, more models like this need to be created so that we can understand what is this goal that we're moving toward, not just trying to get back to. I've read so many books about sexuality. Many of them reference the idea of sexual development, but nobody fully defines it. Nobody fully spells it out the way. I think we really need it to be spelled out in order to make PsyD or the sexual development model more credible, something that we can really grab a hold of. Here's my key takeaway of the sexual development model that I hope all of you will remember.

Speaker 1: 56:13

If you experience unwanted sexual attraction, here's what that says about you you are human. You're human. The fact that you experience this doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It also doesn't mean you need to give into it. It means you have a body. It means you have a body. It means you have feelings. It means God created you to experience sexual attraction and sometimes, just like every other person, you would rather not experience it toward a specific person or type of porn or behavior. My friend, you are human and the truest thing about you is that you are God's beloved child and as his beloved child. You're in the process of maturing sexually, just like all of us are. We're in a process of maturing sexually. That includes learning to celebrate our sexual thoughts and feelings, learning to obey God, not necessarily needing to be married or coupled.

Speaker 1: 57:31

Yes, we're all repenting and believing in the gospel. We need to be clear about what we're repenting of and hint, it's not our sexuality. We can pursue personal growth. We can get relational support. We can be open to divine intervention in the Holy Spirit's work in our lives. We can explore our childhood origin stories. We can receive trauma therapy as needed and we can believe the truth that God welcomes us and he's here for it. He's not ashamed of unwanted sexual attraction. He's not afraid of unwanted sexual attraction because we're human. My friend, unwanted sexual attraction is a part of you. It's not who you are and it doesn't get to dictate what you do one way or the other. You have the power to choose what to do with it. My hope is that you will take steps toward development, maturity and growth, because the goal is not to get back to some idealistic, perfectionist state. The goal is to grow up. It's discipleship, becoming like Jesus. I think that's what Christianity is about.

Speaker 1: 58:54

At this point you might be wondering what is the sexual development model? If I had to summarize it to somebody, what would it be? Here are the core assumptions I have that I would describe as the core ideas of the sexual development model that make it different from any other perspective that's been articulated that I know of. I'm just going to read them straight through. These are the assumptions of the sexual development model. Sexual attraction is a normal and good part of you Period. No one is born sexually mature. Maturity develops over time. Sexual attraction naturally grows and develops throughout life, but sexual development can be stunted or hijacked in many ways by porn, trauma, abuse, abandonment, enmeshment and so on. Now we all experience unwanted sexual attraction at some level and our journey to maturity is holistic, involving knowledge, skills and attitudes, involving knowledge, skills and attitudes Our heads, our hearts, our bodies. It's a beautiful journey and it's never too late to take that journey and become a sexually healthy mature adult.

Speaker 1: 1:00:14

The sexual development model has some core assumptions that make it different from this whole side A, side B, side Y, side X scheme. Here's one Sexual attraction is a normal and good part of you period. Side A would clearly agree with that Side. B, y and x need a little bit of help to get on board with this idea that sexuality is not just good in the context of marriage, and actually in the context of marriage it can be really harmful, objectifying and destructive. Marital rape is a real thing. If you think that sexual attraction in marriage is the good version of it, then you're still ultimately allowing for marital rape and consumption of another person's body just because they're married.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

What's missing in a marriage where the guy is attracted to his wife but he's using her and objectifying her? What's missing is maturity. What's missing is being able to maturely manage his attraction so that sexuality is about connection, not just consumption. Sexual attraction is normal and good period, just like any other feeling, just like any other emotion. Sexual attraction, however, is not the goal. Opposite sex sexual attraction is not the goal. Same sex sexual attraction is not the goal. Maturity is the goal.

Speaker 1: 1:01:50

No one is born sexually mature. You were not born this way. If you find yourself in a state of maturity where you're able to delay your sexual gratification, you can bless your sexuality. You're not shaming yourself. You're able to regulate your nervous system without sexually acting out. Those markers of maturity are not inborn. Maturity develops over time. It develops through relationships. It develops through learning, self-regulation, self-awareness, self-compassion. So that's the core assumption I mentioned earlier, that we're not trying to go back to some state we had at birth. We're trying to go forward into who we're created to be, who we're created to become.

Speaker 1: 1:02:37

And here's a piece that I think a lot of people are missing Sexual attraction naturally grows and develops throughout life. When we were children, many of us experienced sexual attraction to other children and that was normal and good. There was nothing wrong with that. As we grow and develop, our bodies grow and evolve. I felt to my wife when we got married is going to be very different than the attraction I feel to her when we are in our 70s and 80s, if we're able to live that long. I say this to normalize that sexual attraction shifts, evolves, grows over time. It's actually a very common experience and we don't even realize it's happening.

Speaker 1: 1:04:02

Side A and side B often treat unwanted sexual attraction as a kind of fixed entity that might or might not change. What I'm saying is sexual attraction is dynamic and the normal state of it is to grow and evolve as we get older, and what often happens is that it becomes stunted or hijacked and therefore becomes more fixated than it could be. And that's what happened to me when I was 13 years old. My natural, normal development being attracted to other girls was growing and changing and then it got stuck. It got stunted and hijacked by the trauma I experienced and a lot of other parts of my story that I could go into. Sexual development can be stunted or hijacked in many ways. It's not that it's one thing that can then just change. It's like no, it's changing, and then often it becomes just one thing, and that's where a lot of us come back to again and again in pornography. It's often one thing or one type of thing that we became fixated on, perhaps a stage of development where we got stuck.

Speaker 1: 1:05:24

And, as we are formed sexually in many different ways, we all experience unwanted sexual attraction in one way or another, and we're all on a journey to maturity. That journey involves acquiring knowledge, skills and attitudes. It's not just about learning more information in your head. It's also about practicing skills like connecting with others, being able to release energy from your body without sexually acting out, being able to process your emotions, heal your trauma. There's a skill aspect and there's also an attitude of blessing your sexuality and also having boundaries around it. Remember that's one of the stages of development that Penner's talked about. It's an attitude of kindness, curiosity and compassion. Sexual maturity is not just about what you do or what you think. It's about how you love and thankfully, it's never too late to become a sexually healthy, mature adult.

Speaker 1: 1:06:32

I think many of these assumptions challenge some of the existing paradigms. Some of the existing paradigms, because if you experience sexual attraction to the same sex, that doesn't put you in a separate category from the rest of humanity. It means you experience unwanted sexual attraction, just like everyone. If you find yourself fixated and fascinated with just one type of person or one type of experience sexually, that doesn't necessarily mean you were born that way. Perhaps it means your development was stunted or hijacked. If you're wondering will my sexuality ever change or grow, think about it. Not like transforming a dog into a cat. Think of it as a puppy becoming an adult dog.

Speaker 1: 1:07:22

The sexual development model is unique. I have seen some other ministries and professionals who embody some of these principles, but they've never fully articulated it the way I've done today. This sexual development model is at the core of the outgrow porn approach that we are teaching in Husband Material Academy. It's going to be fully presented in my upcoming book this summer called Outgrow Porn, which I'm very excited about, this entire chart showing side A, b, x, y and the sexual development model and everything I've just shared. You can download that chart, you can share it with your friends. Go to husbandmaterialcom, slash, sdm, and that will help you visualize what we're talking about. And that will help you visualize what we're talking about. The outgrow porn approach is about becoming sexually mature, learning secure attachment, healthy, safe touch, learning to talk about these things without shame, blessing boundaries, experimentation and adventure in a redemptive sense of taking redemptive risks in a redemptive sense of taking redemptive risks and ultimately learning how to maturely manage our unwanted sexual attractions and behaviors.

Speaker 1: 1:08:45

Thank you so much for sticking with me through this very long episode. I'm now going to open up some time for questions. Tom says how can you say that my sexual attractions are not bad and destructive to my marriage? Well, it's pretty simple. It's what you do with those attractions that's destructive to your marriage. It's not the attractions themselves, it's what you do with it. A domestic violence survivor might say how can you say that my husband's anger is not bad and destructive to me. His anger is not bad. It's what he's doing with his anger that's bad.

Speaker 1: 1:09:26

Tom says how do I learn to not hate my unwanted sexual attraction? You take the outgrow porn approach. You respond to your attraction by welcoming it, getting curious about the story behind it, appreciating it and blessing it, and then managing it, regulating it. Relating to my unwanted sexual attraction like a loving parent would relate to their own child, isn't that beautiful. That's what we're learning how to do, and that is so much better than behavior modification, so much better than self-hatred, so much better than living the rest of your life in a dark room alone. And it's so much better than just going with whatever your arousal tells you to do, because it's often going to take you in a destructive direction, just like the thoughts and instincts of children take them in destructive directions. How can parents use this model to teach their kids healthy sexuality?

Speaker 1: 1:10:31

I think it starts with being willing to talk about it being open and honest willing to talk about it being open and honest and then it continues into blessing thoughts, feelings, emotions, including the sexual ones, and having boundaries about what's okay and what's not okay, welcoming curiosity, having an attitude where no question is off limits and instead of being overly concerned with surface level sexual behaviors, being more concerned with character development, who are you becoming sexually? In purity culture, so many of us internalized a posture that was all about keeping the rules, but it was still very self-centered because I was thinking to myself how much can I get away with sexually without sinning? It's not sexually mature. If we're concerned with maturity instead of purity, I'm going to be asking whatever the behavior is, whether we believe it's right or wrong, who am I becoming? When we're concerned with development and maturity, behaviors are not the most important thing. Knowledge, skills and attitudes become more important. We focus on those. My hope with the sexual development model is a movement from focusing on sexual purity to focusing on sexual maturity, and if we do that, so many positive ripple effects are going to follow.

Speaker 1: 1:12:10

Andrew's asking are there particular scriptures you would use to help explain your model? Listen to Ephesians 5.1. Explain your model. Listen to Ephesians 5.1. Follow God's example, therefore, as dearly loved children, and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and a sacrifice to God. So, first of all, there's the foundation that we are dearly loved and that we are learning how to walk in the way of love, how to become love, how to embody the love of Christ. And that's what our sexuality is for, that's what our whole lives are for. We are not born this way. Knowing how to love it's something that we develop over time. Galatians 5 would be another place. I would go to say that the fruit of the Spirit, in other words, the result of the Holy Spirit in our lives, is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control and self-control. These are attitudes and they're also skills that we learn. We are becoming these things.

Speaker 1: 1:13:26

My master's degree was in Christian spiritual formation and the focus of that program was all about how do we become more like Jesus, how do we live the Christian life and empower others to do the same? And ultimately, it's not about attraction, it's not about behavior, it's about maturity, it's about character development being formed in the likeness of Christ, and that's a huge part of what's informing all this for me. I do think that a lot of what I shared came from a Christ-centered IFS perspective, and if you want to read more about where that comes from, check out the book Boundaries for your Soul by Alison Cook and Kim Miller. You might also check out Altogether you by Jenna Reimersma. Even from a Christian perspective, the idea that there are no bad parts of us makes a lot of sense, because God created everything and everything is good and everything has been affected by sin, sin done to us, the sin that we've done. And so, rather than viewing ourselves as having some good desires and some bad desires, or some good attractions and some bad attractions, we can view it all as good and broken and in need of redemption. Our sexuality is good, our sexuality is broken and it is being redeemed.

Speaker 1: 1:15:09

Initially I wanted to present the sexual development model as a new side, side D, and while it might be called that in shorthand, ultimately I want to stop taking sides. I want men who experience unwanted sexual attraction to no longer view themselves as abnormal or separate or different fundamentally than everybody else, because everybody experiences unwanted sexual attraction. Just not everybody admits it, not everybody's willing to explore it or process it. I think we're on to something here Certainly haven't arrived.

Speaker 1: 1:15:57

I never want the sexual development model to be a weapon, something that you would use to tell somebody why they're wrong and why you're right, but rather a posture of appreciation as well as questioning assumptions and ultimately helping each other grow. For those of you who are experiencing intense internal conflict about your sexuality, I hope the sexual development model helps you take a deep breath. It helps you take a deep breath. I hope it leads to a sigh of relief that you're human, you're not abnormal, you're not in some special category of unwanted sexual attraction. Your sexuality is good and we're all in the process of growing and outgrowing unwanted sexual behavior, especially pornography, and learning to believe the truest thing about you, which is this you are God's beloved son. In you he is well-pleased.