Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you for listening to today's episode about how women hurt men and how women can help men heal from wounds caused by women. I am really interested in this topic, and I hope you are too, because there is a dimension of our ongoing healing and growth which cannot fully happen with just men, and today we have the perfect guest to talk about this.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Britta Eske has been working with men on their feminine wounds for years and years, and she actually trains others to do this work. She is a neuroaffective, relational model, trauma-informed professional. She is a certified compassion cultivation teacher. She comes from a Catholic background and works with people from all different kinds of faiths and perspectives. I really enjoyed our conversation and it is getting me really excited about what is possible between men and women.

Speaker 1: 1:45

And before we begin, there needs to be a disclaimer about this episode. Please do not use these insights against your wife or another woman in your life who you're close to, because if you're a married man listening to this episode, you might be tempted to take the truth that women can hurt men and use that to blame or shame your wife. That's not okay. You also might take the truth that women can help men heal and impose unrealistic and inappropriate expectations on your wife or on another woman in your life. Please use this episode for your own personal growth and healing, and if you are a woman listening to this, my heart goes out to you too. Thank you for your interest and I hope that you are able to do your own work around this too.

Speaker 1: 2:35

At Husband Material, our goal is to become men who relate to other men and women with curiosity, compassion, connection, courage and kindness Not entitlement, not using others not immature, using others not immature inappropriate ways. So please don't use this episode to should all over someone, including yourself. Rather, use it to show you where your next healing step might lead you. Enjoy the episode. Today we are with Britta Eske, co-founder of Core and author of Initiations in Love, and what you really need to know for today's episode is that she also started the Noble man Workshop, which you will hear a lot more about. Britta, welcome to Husband Material.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 3:27

I am excited too. We are talking about how women can help men heal. What is that all?

Speaker 2: 3:34

about how Women Can Help Men Heal. What is that all about? Through the no Women Workshop, which is basically a space where women hold space for men and then men go through their stuff with women, you know, like any wounds from mom to you know, ex-partner to girlfriend, to former, to wife, to whoever right, Teacher or sister or someone some feminine influence in their life.

Speaker 1: 3:59

In your book you say that a friend of yours spoke some very powerful words. He said we as men have inflicted so much pain on women and at the same time, women have also inflicted pain on us men.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Yeah, and it's true. And you know, when I first started this work myself, I didn't really believe that I thought men really were the perpetrators, right, and that's also what it's all you know. I was like a really strong feminist, all you know. I was like a really strong feminist and I was like, I am not going to be suppressed any longer. And there is a truth to it. There is obviously a history of men having abused women, and men are simply physically stronger, so you know just that. So that's true. And on top of that, there's also another truth, which is that women have also hurt men. I would say there is a shadow masculine and there's a shadow feminine, and the shadow feminine is not spoken about very often, right, and it's almost like we're not allowed to say that.

Speaker 1: 5:10

So when you say the shadow feminine, you mean the shadow side or the dark side of women been healed, that is unresolved in us as women.

Speaker 2: 5:37

Of course we're going to pass that on to our sons or brothers, or just men in our life. We're going to project that right. So that's just human nature. So this is one of the things I learned from being at the Nobleman Workshop that like I was like this first time I write about that in the book too, like just the first time seeing these men walk in there and then having them share what happened to them, like my heart just broke, you know, and like I was like, oh my God, I had no idea what you're carrying right. Like in some way it's even harder than for women in one way, because men don't talk about it that much. You know. Women get together and talk about that a lot, right, but men, as far as I know, you know, don't so much. I know you help them talk about this kind of stuff, thank God.

Speaker 1: 6:27

Right? Well, it is rare for men to be able to talk about our wounds, our trauma, and not just to talk about it, but to truly feel it. And it's even more rare for that to happen in a room with women. Where men and women are together is even more rare. When you're in that space with men opening up about their wounds in relation to women, what kinds of things do you hear?

Speaker 2: 6:55

Yeah, so it starts with mom, right, that makes sense, right. So I hear a lot of men where their moms have sort of used them. You know, as they are, let's say they're in unhappy marriages, right, and again they don't have their needs met with the husbands. Then their sons become their surrogate husbands, you know they, they have to fulfill all that. They become their confidant, they're like even become their lover, like this is how bad it can get. Right, like that happens too. I know we always say that happens to the, to the girls, but it also happens to the boys, you know, and it's terrible and totally confusing right and very deeply wounding right Because we trust mom. Right, like mom is the first image of God you could say right, so it's very painful and I'm really sorry to hear that happen to you.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Well, I would never have said that until getting into deeper healing work and then realizing that what I thought was love was actually my mother needing to be loved and caring for me so that she could also have some kind of closeness because she was so alone. Yeah, and that really shaped my sexuality. It shaped my relationship with pornography as well, and we have a lot of men who have identified enmeshment in their story, especially with their moms.

Speaker 2: 8:30

So that's one side of the spectrum. Is enmeshment or being used as a stand-in husband or something. The other side is neglect. You know, and there's like a lot of men that didn't get attuned to, that didn't get their needs met, that, as boys, mom just wasn't there. You know she was super busy or whatever, distracted with her own trauma. You know like occupied and they just have no imprint of closeness or love or attunement or connection with mom. You know like occupied and they just have. They just have no imprint of closeness or love or attunement or connection with mom. You know, so that's leaves them starving for connection, right, like that's the other side of it. Right, like mom was really harsh, they were never good enough, like it was like, you know, there was so much pressure put on them to be a certain something, somebody, something for mom. You know like so and they were never good enough. There's a whole spectrum from anything that can happen in parenting can happen to a little boy.

Speaker 1: 9:35

I'm also hearing stories of men who had sexual experiences with older women when they were little boys, but they didn't think of that as abuse because it came from a woman.

Speaker 2: 9:46

Yeah, yeah, so that's something to really. When it comes from a woman, it's harder to wrap your head around that it's oh, this is also abuse, right? It's clear. When it comes from an older man to a girl, right? When it comes that older women do that too, I don't even know. People know that. You know that this happens, right. So now I don't know the percentage and in a certain way, does that matter so much? Because what matters is the individual person and what has happened to him or her.

Speaker 1: 10:21

So much because what matters is the individual person and what has happened to him or her.

Speaker 2: 10:28

So true, many men in our community also feel hurt by their wives, which is complicated because they have also hurt their wives so much too. Yeah, life is complicated, you know, like. This is one thing I'm really discovering over the years is it's so complex, like these easy stereotype kind of things, that we think about life. They're just not true. You can be really hurtful to someone and they can also be hurtful to you. I think that's actually what happens a lot, right, and you don't know who started and does it even matter? Or like who started being hurtful? Like in one way, it's like, yes, maybe that doesn't matter, but in another way, it's like let's just go deeper than that and get to the bottom of what we all need.

Speaker 2: 11:09

You know, and why are we behaving so unskillful, right? Which is why, I think you know, when I read about your work, I was like, oh, this is so good. You know, like that you're going to the underneath. You know, like, why am I doing this? What am I trying to get to to behave in this way? That is so unskillful and so hurtful, right, in terms of women hurting men. I believe that, on a global level or an unconscious level, it may be because of what had happened, what has happened to women over the thousands of years, you know like of of that kind of suppression, that it may be that women are letting it out on the men. You know who knows right, but it's like somewhere we're gonna stop and right and just go. Okay, let's look at what. What's my part of it right? What's my part of it right?

Speaker 1: 11:59

What's my part of this? Yeah, perhaps rather than expecting my wife or my mother or someone else in my life to finally change.

Speaker 2: 12:09

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:10

Good point. The reason I mentioned that is because I sometimes can unfairly project onto my wife that she has to be the one who heals my wounds around the feminine. I mean that can happen, but in the Noble man Workshop you have women who men have never met before helping them heal. What's the power of having a woman who's separate from your life come into your healing journey?

Speaker 2: 12:43

Well, I think it's much easier because you don't have all this history with that person you know although sometimes their wives are present, you know, also present like depending if they've also done their work, like these are all people, the people that are staffing or holding space, are all people that have done a lot of inner work, because you need to be able to hold that kind of space of unconditional presence and attunement and connection and not taking anything personally. Well, if you're the wife of someone, that is much harder, right. Or the mother of someone or the you know, like if you're connected. So in a certain sense, it's easier, much easier when it's strangers and you know, sometimes, when you hear it out of the mouth of a stranger, you go oh, that's my story you know, like and and it's less charged with personal history.

Speaker 2: 13:36

And all that for and protection.

Speaker 1: 13:39

Yeah how do women help men heal?

Speaker 2: 13:43

And so you know, also in my book I write about how this all started, which was like my former partner and I sitting around the kitchen table and our male friend, who was also a facilitator and did his own men's work, came in and he said what you can do with men is love them. That's what you can do. And it just rang a bell. It was just like ooh, oh, like it was just like so simple, but it was like, oh, love them, like give them sort of like this sweet, devotional, caring, maternal, feminine love that they're craving right without wanting, without wanting anything from them.

Speaker 1: 14:27

And without some kind of sexual dimension to it.

Speaker 2: 14:31

Yeah and no, it was a very safe, non-sexual space.

Speaker 2: 14:35

So that whole thing is just taken off, you know, like, which creates a lot of trouble, right, and like in terms of like, there's very clear boundaries of what is allowed and what is not allowed. So that's very clear, right, and you take all that off and then they walk into this almost womb-like space you could say, right, where they're just loved, and they can, you know, say it all, put it all out, tell all their stories, and they don't have to protect women. This is another important piece. We say this right at the beginning you do not have to protect us, you don't have to be nice, we just want you to be real, just, and we can hold it. We have our own stories that are not so pretty, you know, and so let's just lay it all out and trust in essential goodness, right, like similar to what I see in your body of work that if you just kind of go deep enough and then quiet do, you will get to something good there's something good that wants to happen, because we're essentially good.

Speaker 2: 15:34

God made us in his image, right, so we're essentially good and so we can trust. If we unravel enough, we're going to get somewhere to something beautiful, you know, and that's what happens yes, it has been material.

Speaker 1: 15:48

Oftentimes that looks like getting in touch with the little boy in me. What we do is take men into their masculinity and help them grow up, but what you do and what your organization does is so, so important that we don't do which is allowing a man to receive emotionally healthy love from a woman.

Speaker 2: 16:14

Yeah, and it's interesting. It is a lot about the little boy, of course, because that's where this all started, but it doesn't stay there. You know like it's like it's not like we just kind of coddle them the whole time or something. You know it's like once that need is fulfilled, right, then I'm sure that's the same in your work Then the men that they are because they really aren't little boys, right, they are men right arises, you know, like in a very empowered way, right, because that little boy is integrated right and not kind of shoved aside, right.

Speaker 2: 16:49

So, and I tell you, it's really beautiful for women to see that. You know to see men empowered, like not macho men or like or dominating men, you know, but also not kind of wimpy men that are this kind of like victims and like, you know, and complaining and like disconnecting and, you know, whining or something. You know like it's like. It's like actually men that are really empowered and have, with an open heart. You know like that is really beautiful to see for women, you know, because you know women become a little emasculating women. You know, because you know women become a little emasculating, you know like and controlling a lot Like there's a lot of relationships where the women are controlling the show because the men have sort of given up.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Or the women have taken control appropriately, since the man has been sabotaging their lives with his secret sexual behavior, been sabotaging their lives with his secret sexual behavior.

Speaker 2: 17:49

Yeah, the woman is waiting for the man. You know, like, where's your leadership, right? You're just kind of stuck in front of a computer, right? Or you're in your la-la land or you're just not present, you know. And then often the women do what needs to be done for the family, and you know, and just kind of take charge, right, like they also long for a man who stands up and is strong and present, and so it's lovely to see that happen in such a short time. You know like to for that masculine, beautiful, masculine, empowered presence to arise. And then women go. Oh, I can let go, right, I can relax, like it's safe now.

Speaker 1: 18:31

Can you share some stories of what healing looks like for men at a workshop with women facilitating?

Speaker 2: 18:39

Can look very different ways, right, like that this is about as diverse as as the stories are with the men, right, but like, usually they come in some kind of crisis, right, like they either just got divorced or they have had difficulties in relationships, like maybe they've gone through one after the other or they can't commit. Right, like they just can't say yes, no, no, women's ever good enough. Or like different stories, right, but usually there's some kind of crisis point, some kind of. Sometimes their wife is like going, if you don't do something, I'm out of here. That also sometimes happens, right, which is not so great, but they get there somehow somehow, you know so, usually, yeah, someone always ends up back to what happened with mom a lot, right, like what happened in your early life with the feminine that had that caused that disconnection, right, and then that kind of unravels.

Speaker 2: 19:37

We do a lot of different things, but a lot of embodied processes and a lot of sharing. And then so there's men that didn't think they were husband material, for example, and then found, got married, had children, found that they are really good at this, actually, you know so, for example, right, or yeah, men that just, let's say they had a divorce and they're like they are not trusting women anymore. That they opened up again to trust. That has also happened. Yeah, anymore. That they opened up again to trust, that has also happened.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Yeah, just profound healing with whoever they needed healing with right some. It could even be like with another woman in your life. It could be like for my uh husband. It was with his stepmother, you know we didn't even acknowledge existed kind of thing, even though she was a mother figure his whole life. You know, like that after that workshop he went to her and apologized for not ever seeing her, you know, and and like so. A lot of like all of a sudden being present with someone in your life. Sometimes it's apologizing something, it's like being honest about something that doesn't work for you or, you know, so could be many different things.

Speaker 1: 20:53

My imagination is spinning just thinking about what that can be, and I know that healing friendships with women have been a big part of my story as well.

Speaker 2: 21:05

See, sometimes it's like the only woman we relate to is your wife or your family members. Right, like barely, and it's like, and there's such beautiful friendships available between men and women. Right, and it's so rare that that actually can happen in a non-sexual safe. You know, brotherly, sisterly, sisterly way, right, that is so enriching and so many people don't have that, you know, maybe they have a wife or a girlfriend or something, but that's it in terms of closeness with the feminine right and there's so much more available, like on all these levels a lot of guys don't feel safe or they don't see opportunities.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Yeah, yeah, understandably, women don't feel safe either. You know, like safety is a big issue, right, how to create safety and a container, and I think sometimes it's just we just have to experience it once that this is possible, right. Like, oh, oh, like I can be close to someone and I can share and I can learn and I can like this, like be brotherly, you know, and sisterly with someone, and it's really enriching and it's safe and it's OK, right. So sometimes you just need to experience it, right.

Speaker 1: 22:30

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 22:32

You said that men coming to these workshops wanted to know not just what it was to be a man among men, but also what it meant to be a man among women that is safer mostly not for everyone, but you know like it's, and it's like to really kind of know what it is like to be a man among men and to be to heal your wounds with the brothers and all that kind of stuff, right and then. But that is only one step right, because the other half of humanity is still there, the other half of humanity is missing. And so to be, to take that step, to be a man among women, is it's another step, isn't it? Yeah, it certainly is.

Speaker 2: 23:27

I just wanted to say to the men here that are listening that I feel like you've really been battered up about this. You know like, and I want to say I'm sorry for you just having to take all the blame for everything bad that happens. You know like I don't think that's fair, and I just want to say like I think it's beautiful that you're a man. I think men are beautiful. The masculine is beautiful and, of course, has a shadow side, but so does the feminine, right, and let's, let's just bring the beauty out in each other.

Speaker 1: 24:03

So your organization hosts these workshops every few months, multiple times a year, for a select group of men. Can you say more about that?

Speaker 2: 24:14

for a select group of men. Can you say more about that? Interesting enough, my organization, core right, like, doesn't actually produce these workshops anymore. We have we have, like satellite organizations that, so people that we've trained right that now have taken these workshops to their communities. So there's different places. For example, one is in Colorado, right, where people put on these workshops, and sometimes my husband and I still go and facilitate, but we don't produce them anymore, right, but they're on our website and everything.

Speaker 2: 24:43

It takes a brave soul to do this, right, like. I'm always amazed that somebody comes right and it puts themselves in the hand of the women, right, like often they don't know anybody else there, like, they just somehow landed there and they're like oh my God, what have I done? So they usually don't walk out like that. Yeah, so there's three and a half days and we've been into initiations. That's what also the title of my book is, right Initiations and Love Meaning that we're holding like a particular space where you come in one way and you come out another. You go through a real vital passage, right, and you are seen and witnessed by the women in it.

Speaker 1: 25:34

So beautiful. If someone's interested, what's the next step?

Speaker 2: 25:42

I would say they go to our website, to the no Women page, check it out. There's always discovery calls they can do if they're not sure that they that's the right thing for them. You know, there's also I think they happen every two months or so like intro events, like short two hour events where women are actually there and holding the process and then the men can check it out what it's like to. These are online, right, so just kind of check it out. What is it like if I participate in this, with women leading it and, you know, sharing about my relationship with a feminine?

Speaker 1: 26:09

awesome. I'm putting all of the links for Britta, her book CORE and the Nobleman Workshop in the show notes for this episode. Britta, what is your favorite thing about women helping men heal?

Speaker 2: 26:28

So the favorite thing is really in the initiations. So there's a man sort of in the middle of a center, right and surrounded by women and his brothers, and goes through this process. And there's a moment when and everybody feels it when it's just like this is how it's supposed to be, this is how the best of women and the best of men are supposed to be together. You know, this is like unity, right? It's like oh, oh, this is how the puzzle fits together. You know, like this is how it's meant to be and it's even better than you think it is, like that's how beautiful it is and there's a reason why we're made male and female, and I truly believe that there's something in there. When men and women heal, the world heals. You know, like the world has a chance to heal because we need both. We need the best of women and we need the best of men to come forth now, right, like it's time, so good.

Speaker 1: 27:33

I'm excited to explore this for myself and see what can happen with our community as we begin to heal, not just with other men, but with women too.

Speaker 2: 27:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:44

Gentlemen, thank you for listening to this whole thing. Always remember you are God's beloved son and you he is well pleased.