Welcome And Interview Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow poor. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go. Thank you so much for listening to today's interview with Dr. Crystal Hollenbeck, the author of Betrayal Trauma Anger: How to Process Complex Anger While Healing from the Impact of Sexual Betrayal. I have been waiting and longing to have a conversation like this for years. Crystal brings so much expertise, knowledge, and compassion along with practical steps on how to manage betrayal, trauma, anger, both for the person who has been betrayed and the person who has done the betraying. I understand that the label of being called the betrayer may be triggering or it may feel like an identity statement. I encourage you to lean into this language as an honest description of what has happened. Crystal gives so much help to the betrayer and the betrayed. As a Christian licensed mental health counselor, a certified life coach, and an expert in the field of relationship therapy, sex therapy, and trauma recovery, as well as having a strong Christian faith, Crystal is the ideal person to help us understand and process betrayal trauma anger. In this episode, you will learn the skip protocol, the betrayal, trauma, anger calming phases, what boundaries should not be crossed, and why betrayal is similar to bullfighting. Enjoy the episode.

Why Betrayal Anger Gets Misread

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Welcome to Husband Material. I'm so excited to introduce you all to Dr. Crystal Hollenbeck. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Hi, Drew. I'm so happy to talk with you today.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

I'm happy to, and I'm especially grateful because this topic of betrayal, trauma, anger is so common, so heartbreaking, and important to understand. Why do you care so deeply about this?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Well, because for many years in our field, I don't think people understood betrayal, trauma, anger. And so oftentimes the partner was pathologized, was told that she needs to forgive too quickly, that, you know, she was told she had a borderline personality disorder because all of a sudden she was difficult, raging, acting in ways that were totally out of her norm. And that was before we really understood that a betrayed partner is experiencing post-traumatic stress, extreme loss and grief, broken relational attachment, and complex anger all at the same time. So when I was treating my clients, I was noticing anger and I was certified in anger management therapy. So I'm helping them with their anger. But I really realized I could not find any resources on specific to betrayal trauma anger. Some of the books and things would have like a paragraph or maybe even a chapter sometimes, but no real resource to put in the hands of a betrayed partner. So that's what started my journey to create a resource.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

And it seems shocking to me that there's not more on this. In a research article that you wrote with Dr. Barbara Stephens, one of the findings was this you all asked, after discovering you were betrayed, did you express your anger in a manner that was unusual for you, such as swearing, yelling, hitting, and throwing things? 76% of respondents said yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yes, and 85% who took the survey said the anger that they experienced after betrayal was more intense than at any other time they experienced anger in their life. You're right. They're behaving in ways they've never done before. The anger is so intense and they're feeling it. Again, because of all those things they're going through at the same time. Plus, there's this self-directed anger that comes, right? That's an important part. So there's just so many facets. It's so complex.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah. Anger at myself might be like blaming myself, thinking I'm so foolish or stupid or naive.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yes. Even I was suspicious and saw something and I didn't say anything. Or I caught him. He told me he was never going to do it again, and I stayed. I stayed after I knew what he was doing. So much self-directed anger that has to be worked through.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah.

When Anger Goes Unprocessed

SPEAKER_00 4:25

What happens if people don't work through it?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Well, then unfortunately, you get those consequences of long-term anger. So if you stay in a state of anger, which I'm sure we all have been angry too long at times in our life, but when you stay angry and you don't process it, then it impacts your physical health, it impacts your relationships, it impacts your mental health. It just really can take a toll on you because anger is a really healthy emotion. Anger is that indicator that says something's not right, but it's an indicator. So we're supposed to get angry at the injustice or angry about what's not right, but we're supposed to process it and heal the wound that may be created from the anger. We're not supposed to just stay in that state of anger.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Yeah. I love how you quote the Bible and saying, be angry and in your anger, do not sin. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah, that is the basis for the book of helping betrayed partners and betrayers and helping professionals, helping them actually. But I wanted to understand that process of be angry. I want to validate that. And then don't hurt yourself or someone else when you are. And that is that basis of be angry and sin not. Right. So the sin would be if you're hurting yourself or other people. And so that's what we want to avoid.

Reactive Abuse And Clear Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Some men in our community have confusion about the difference between expressing the emotion of anger and hurting or attacking. How do betrayers sometimes misinterpret betrayal trauma anger?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Well, I will tell you, it's very common to lash out, right? There's such a thing called reactive abuse. So when the betrayed partner has been deceived and abused, because I want to remind everyone, when you're betraying, you're abusing your partner. You are deceiving them, abusing them, putting them at risk. There's a lot going on there. So what happens is when the betrayed partner is first of all experiencing post-traumatic stress from the shock of discovering what's been happening. And then there's this broken relational attachment with the person you were the closest to. And so you have all this going on in the loss and the anger. And what happens is oftentimes the betrayed partner's going to lash out. They lash out passive aggressively, they lash out aggressive. I've had partners be physically aggressive with their. And then what happens with the betrayer? He's like, oh, I deserve it. She can just do whatever she wants to me. And so it's hard. We as mental health professionals have to help them understand. And I'll just use she and he for an example, but obviously there are a lot of men who are betrayed just as women are betrayed. But she is so overwhelmed and she's not herself. I explained this in the book. When you're angry, the amygdala in your brain, which is your emotional regulation, starts to go into overdrive. And when that happens, the frontal cortex shuts down. The frontal cortex part of the brain is all your logic and reasoning. So you're going to say and do crazy, right? You're not going to be your normal self. So that's why I developed a protocol for you to calm the brain. But in talking about that reactive abuse, what's happening is the brain is overreacting. She's not thinking, she's not rational. She's going to do all kinds of things that she would never have done otherwise. And that's the key. She doesn't behave like this normally. So he's got to understand. No, you don't deserve to be abused because you've betrayed her. You don't deserve to be abused no matter what. But if you can understand that she's hurting so badly, her brain is not functioning well, it can help you not to take it so personal. It can help you to lean in with empathy, to understand what she's going through when she's angry. And obviously, I teach boundaries. If she's hitting you, throwing things at you, attacking you, of course, you have to step away. You have to have a boundary to say, I'm not going to be hit. You know, this isn't going to happen. You know, let her know where you're going. Don't just leave, but just say, hey, I'm going to go take a walk for 10 minutes and then I'll come back. So we establish those boundaries with couples. But it's a very difficult time, Drew. And as you know, shame is such a big part of this. So the betrayer is shameful for what he's done. It's so hard for him to see that he's hurt the person that he loves so dearly. And then she is so hurt with shame because when your brain is overreacting and you're behaving in a way that's not normal, then you're ashamed of what you've done and said. So oftentimes they don't even tell the therapist or coach what's going on because there's so much shame. Or, like I said, the portrayer thinks, let her do whatever she wants to me because I deserve it. So we as clinicians have to really ask. You know, we have to ask about anger. We have to ask about what's going on. We have to make sure we normalize it's normal what you're going through so that you feel less shame and we can help you process that anger.

The SKCIP Protocol For Calming

SPEAKER_00 9:46

In the book, you describe the skip protocol. Am I saying that right?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yes. It's S-C I P, but it sounds like skip. Because quite frankly, I needed the C in there. I couldn't come up with a necrostic for anything else. And so, yes, it is sit down, calm down, identify, and process. And on my website, I have a short little video that explains it. And there's a PDF on there that you can download. In the book, chapter eight really explains how I developed that. I developed that protocol years ago when I was trying to help people manage their anger and their anxiety. It's based in cognitive behavioral therapy, and it's really been impactful for partners to understand that you have to give yourself grace, and the betrayer also will lash out at the partner. He'll get angry andor be snied and give sarcastic or shut down and be quiet, which can be the worst, right? And so you just have to give yourself grace. It's a brain issue. You're not going to behave in a way that's calm until you practice it intentionally to nurture yourself. So, yes, the skip protocol is a very helpful tool.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Fantastic. I'm going to put the links to the skip protocol in the description for this episode so you can go get those free resources.

Anger As Fear And Self-Protection

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Anger is also about fear and safety. You describe it as a way to protect myself.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

So the book is filled with quotes from the betrayed partners that took the survey. And one of the partners said, Anger is my way to protect myself, right? Because sometimes if we're angry, it can feel like a shield. Right. Also, sometimes when you're angry, it's almost like if you're not angry, your partner doesn't know that you're still hurting. So there's this belief with betrayed partners that he's acting like everything's fine. Or if I'm okay, then he doesn't realize that I'm still hurting. And usually that betrayed partner is hurting every minute of every day at the beginning. And so it's also the partner's way to express to their betrayer, I'm not okay. You know, and that anger can protect you from not being hurt again. All of a sudden, this person who I thought would keep me the safest, who I felt the safest with, all of a sudden you don't feel safe to me. So if I lash out in anger, you know, of course it's a maladaptive way of trying to cope and deal with what you're going through. But yes, that's common.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

In your research, it said, when asked the question, after you discovered you were betrayed, did your betrayer promise to stop? And then later you discovered they were continuing to betray you? 71% said yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

That's some of the worst part of it. That's the fear. You know, when clients come in to me, usually the betrayed partner is so afraid it's never going to stop. They're going to promise to stop and do it again and promise to stop and do it again. And then, of course, the betrayer is so afraid that their wife is going to leave them. And so we have both people coming in with so much anxiety. He desperately wants to save the marriage. She desperately wants to feel safe that he'll really be able to stop the behaviors. And over a period of time, what happens is the betrayer will come in, and after some time, he realizes I'm not doing this to save my marriage. I'm doing this to be a man of integrity. And if I become a man of integrity in these areas, I won't betray my wife again. And when she understands that she'll be okay whether she stays or goes, and that she can expect him to be a man of integrity in these areas, then the healing really just grows and they grow closer in the process.

Why The Anger Keeps Unfolding

SPEAKER_00 13:43

That's awesome. Because partners don't want to be angry.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

There is no betrayed partner on the face of the earth that wants to deal with what they're dealing with. They don't want to be angry and sad. They don't want to lose focus. They don't want to be hurt and betrayed. They don't want to be plagued with just intrusive thoughts constantly. And one of the things, Drew, that I defined is I defined betrayal trauma anger, like a literal definition for it. And the most important thing from my perspective is understanding that the betrayed partner is angry immediately, and then it's unfolding over time. So here she is, she's angry about this. She doesn't even know all the other things she's going to be angry about, right? And so in part two of the book, I have a chapter that says so many reasons to be angry. There's anger about the past that's unfolding, the present that's unfolding, anger about the future. She doesn't want that. She doesn't want to have to be going through that. So we want to be careful not to blame her, right? She's just trying to survive what's happening. But there's so many things to be angry about, right? And oftentimes the betrayer, in fact, I just had a client, a new couple this morning that I was doing some psychoeducation with about all of this. And he's just like, oh, we're having this great day. And then she gets angry and the day's ruined. And I had to tell him, right? Like, it doesn't mean the day is ruined. It means let's work through what we're angry about and let's continue and it can still be a good day. But the betrayer, naturally, he doesn't want to talk about this. He doesn't, he wants to get as far away from it as possible. And she needs to talk about it. And what I explained, just like to the couple this morning, is this is part of your story now as a couple. You have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable and talk about it. And talk about those things that bring up anger, you know, and all of the uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

So yeah. To be angry and not hurt each other or ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Yes.

The Bullfighting Metaphor For Betrayal

SPEAKER_00 15:52

The cover of your book features a bull, and you have this metaphor of bullfighting that I thought was brilliant. How is sexual betrayal similar to bullfighting?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

So it's interesting. I was doing research thinking about the cover for the book, and I thought about seeing red because that represents anger. So I was just sitting on my couch one night and I started to Google, well, seeing red really comes from a bullfight, right? Like when the bull sees red. So anyway, I just start like Googling bullfights. And then as I was reading about them, I was like, wow, the bull in the matador, that relationship really represents the relationship between the betrayed and the betrayer. So for example, we see the matador, which actually can be a man or woman, and they are dressed in these just phenomenal, fabulous costumes, right? They stand up straight, the crowd is cheering. They're, you know, we're all thinking this is this strong man of courage, right? And he's going to defeat this angry bull, right? Really, the truth is that he's already having the bull beat up back there behind the bin, and you don't know it. He's having other people stab it with things so it's bleeding. Before the day of the bull fight, the bull's being kept in the dark, deprived of food and water. So it's already so beat up, right? That it doesn't even have a chance when it comes out into the arena. Isn't that just like the betrayer and the betrayed? The betrayer, usually, in my experience, is somebody who has an outstanding reputation, a spiritual leader. People look to them, they're usually successful, have a wonderful personality, a beautiful family. You just admire this person. You don't know they're living living the double life. But really, what they're doing is abusing their wife, right? They're deceptive, they're cheating, they're spending money, they're putting her at risk, they're doing all these things to weaken the bull. So by the time, you know, they have the bull fight, the bull doesn't really even have a chance. Right. And so it represents that deception, that double life. What you're seeing isn't really what's happening. And then also, there's several different ways that I think it represents. But another one is, you know, oftentimes there's complex betrayal. So the betrayed partner, her betrayer, her husband or partner will be having an affair with her best friend, a family member, you know, will be doing things behind her back, a neighbor, a coworker. And so they know her and they're hurting her too. And that's very similar to what's happening to the bull. Notice that there's these men that have these big long spikes. So you'll notice when a bull comes out into the arena, there are these spikes sticking out of their back. So they've already been stabbed and bleeding in the back, right? Isn't that how a betrayed partner feels?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Literally stabbed in the back.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yes. Yeah. And so you're already hurting and bleeding when you come out. So, yes, so that's how the cover came to be with the bull and the matador.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

It's just heartbreaking. And it helps me to have more empathy for those anger reactions. It's like, how could the bull do any otherwise?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Exactly. See, they're gonna come out angry and hurt and act like they're crazy. Right? They're not crazy, they're angry, and you know, that's the full title of the book Betrayal, Trauma, Anger. You're not crazy. You're angry, and you should be how to process complex anger while healing from the impact of sexual betrayal. So, yes, if the betrayer can just accept and expect her, you know, I tell all my clients, expect her to be angry, right? Expect yourself to be angry at times. And then that way, when it's happening, you're prepared and you have skills and ways to process it.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah, and maybe that anger is even a form of intimacy to be honest and to let you into my pain.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

You know, part of the survey, I asked questions on how can your betrayer increase your anger or decrease your anger? And one of the things that the partner said was, if they just let me be angry, don't shut me down when I'm angry. You know, and so you're right. I think it's a beautiful opportunity to grow closer when you can be honest and raw with your feelings and not be shamed or judged for it.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Yeah, there is so much hope. This does not have to end like a bullfight.

The CALMING Phases Of Recovery

SPEAKER_00 20:53

And you've described some of the betrayal, trauma, anger, calming phases. What are those?

SPEAKER_01 21:00

I realized that there are seven phases that I recognized of anger that a betrayed partner goes through. And so I developed the betrayal, trauma, anger calming model. I took the acrostic calming, the word calming, and that is the seven phases. It's crisis, awareness, leveling, management, intuition, normalization, and grief.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Are those phases linear or do people go in and out?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, they're not linear. Of course, you always start in that crisis phase. And there is a flow to it if you're healing. But you know, Drew, how so many things can impact that smooth process of therapy or coaching or healing. So, yes, it's not linear, but I do lay it out that how you can see the progression from one phase to another. But at any time, you can find yourself back in that crisis phase. And then of course it depends on, you know, is the betrayer going to do the work? Are they going to be consistent? And I want to encourage the husbands or the betrayers that you really do have a lot of power and control on how the healing goes. Because if you can find the strength to take care of yourself, to do the work, to have a support system and be consistent. Consistency is so important. If you can really lean into focusing on that and building your integrity, that allows her to breathe so she can focus on her own healing. But when you're inconsistent and you won't do the work and you give that pushback, she can't. You know, she's just going to stay in that crisis phase and not be able to calm her nervous system enough to do her own healing.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

It makes sense because the situation's not safe when there are more and more secrets or more and more crises.

How Betrayers Hold Space Well

SPEAKER_00 23:00

What's the best way to respond and hold space for betrayal, trauma, anger?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

So are you saying for the betrayer?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

So first of all, you have to be taking care of you. Sometimes the betrayer gets too focused on the betrayal. Well, I want to be there for her. I want to make sure I want to do this. I want to do that, which is great, but you can't really do that unless you take care of yourself. So in chapter nine in the book, I list out tons of ways to do self-care. You've got to take care of you first. Then you can be there for her. So that's the first step. And then once it's happening, so again, be prepared, like expect it to happen. Don't go through the day and think, oh, it's a great day. Phew, you know, hopefully nothing's going to happen. Go through the day to be like, hey, we're having a great day. And at any time, she could be triggered. At any time she could become angry. So I know it may happen. So take care of you. Expect it to happen. And then when it's not happening, ask her, hey, when you get angry and you're triggered, what can I do for you? See if she can recognize, hey, this is what would be helpful to me. So you want to ask questions from her, not in the middle of her losing her mind. You know, when things are calm, just say, hey, I really want to be there for you the best way that I can. So get information from her. And then Carol Sheets in her book, Helping Couples Heal, right? Carol has a A VR exercise. And I walk through an example of that in my book. You want to be able to acknowledge what she is happening with her, validate it, and then reassure her. Now, sometimes, and Drew, you probably see this. Sometimes the betrayed partner, she's like, You sound like a robot. I don't want to hear that AVR. You know, when they're trying to use the skills they've been given, at first it can seem, and she's like, I don't want to hear that. I want something authentic. I want you to care about me, you know. And so try to listen to that. If she says, Don't tell me you love me, don't use the AVR. Don't say this right now. Try to abide by those boundaries that she's asking for right now where she's at. So really listen and gather that information for her. But when it's happening, you have to take a breath. You got to stay present. Some ways to stay present are touch your clothing. Just put your hand on your leg and touch your pants, right? Look at color in the room. Look at her. Is she wearing a pink shirt? You know, what is that? Just take a deep breath, right? Listen to her. Repeat what she says. Oh, so driving down the street just really triggered you because it reminded you of this. And then talk with her about it. Say empathetic statements. Here's a hard thing for men that I've found. They want to fix everything. They want to make it better. They want to help her, right? And so realize you can't fix it. You just have to sit in it. So just being kind, just validating for her, saying empathy statements like, that must be really hard. I'm sorry that it's so hard today, right? I would feel the same way if you did this to me. You know, you find the right statement. Sometimes a statement will work, and sometimes the same statement does not work. So it can be a challenging thing, but just being there, and this is the feedback that the betrayed partners gave in the survey. They just need you to stay there with them. Stay with them when they're hurting. Don't shut down, don't get mean back, don't get up and walk away. So staying in there. So those are some tips to do as you navigate being present with her while she's working through a trigger.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

So

Grief And Post-Traumatic Growth

SPEAKER_00 26:44

helpful. And that's part of grief. You talk about grief is the last stage of calming. What's the difference between healthy grief, releasing trauma, and just being triggered?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

So I think they're all experiences, right? We experience grief. And I don't believe we ever stop grieving. I believe we learn to live with what I call life-experienced grief. I think there's always going to be a little bit of sadness when you've gone through things, when you've lost through things. I think you carry that forever. I don't think it's as prevalent in your life. I don't think it's as impactful, but I think we carry a little bit with us from life experiences, from the grieving. In the grief stage, that final stage is where I really talk about post-traumatic growth. So you will get to the place when you're grieving individually and together that you start to see the good that comes from the bad. And I'm a firm believer that God will bring good out of what was meant for evil. We're never glad that the evil happened. We're never glad that the bad things happened, but we can start to see how God can use that for our benefit. In my own story, I'm a therapist. This is my post-traumatic growth. And so I have the privilege now to help other people that are going through this. And so I get to see a little glimpse on this side of heaven where God shows me how He's using my pain for purpose. But you start to, you know, spiritually realize things, relationships. I know you, I've certainly have become more compassionate towards others because of my own pain. So you start to look for, you know, uh the betrayer. You can heal those wounds. You're a wounded person. And nobody wakes up and wants to hurt the person that they love and destroy their life and blow it up. So you get to heal, you get to be a better version of yourself. You get to walk in integrity. You get to see that you can be a good husband and a good partner. So, you know, that's that grieving. We have to grieve our losses as we lean into that phase of acceptance. We accept this happened, it's part of our story. And now we get to look and see what good is going to come from this. Oftentimes I have several couples, and Drew, I'm sure you see this, where they tell me if we had never gone through this, we would never have the beautiful relationship we have now. Again, we're not happy we went through it. We certainly wouldn't recommend anybody have to go through it. But you know, that's part of the beauty that comes through the grief.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Amen. Crystal, what is your favorite thing about healing?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

It has to be the growth that comes from it. What we were just talking about, you know?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yeah. It's

Best First Steps And Resources

SPEAKER_00 29:38

redemptive, it's inspiring. Crystal, for anyone who's experiencing betrayal, trauma, anger, what's the best place to start?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Honestly, I would say get my book.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

And talk. So if you can't go to therapy right away, find someone that you trust, a family member, a friend. Also, you know, Drew, like your podcast. There's so many podcasts that can be helpful that are free resources. There are articles, there is free webinars. So look up in Google. You know, that I know I've got information out there that can all be free as well, because not everybody could afford to go to therapy time-wise and finances, but really there are more and more resources available, but you do have to reach out. But I really would love for you to immediately find a therapist, though, or a coach, because one of the main things we can do for you is normalize what you're going through. When it happens to you, you don't know. You know, you don't know what's happening. But the best we can do, Drew, that you and I do is we normalize it. Hey, you know, you're not crazy. This is normal for what you're experiencing.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah. You're angry and you should be. And there are ways to manage it, to be able to process it, to calm it. Crystal, thank you so much for your research and wisdom and compassion in helping us understand.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Thank you for all you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

You're welcome. Everybody, you can check out Dr. Crystal Hollenbeck's website, her book, videos, PDFs, all in the show notes for this episode. And always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.