Welcome And The Mission

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material Podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

Jeff Johnson And Open Spaces

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Today I'm excited to introduce all of you to Jeff Johnson, founder of the Open Spaces Collective and the Open Spaces Podcast. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Thank you so much, Drew. It's so good to be on. Good to meet you in person and how we've been kind of getting to connect a little bit, but excited today to be on your show and honored. So thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah, I've been anticipating this. Jeff, why are you so passionate about this topic of open spaces?

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I'll start with just the theme of our ministry that we have begun. I'm a worship pastor full-time and I am in ministry. I've been in ministry for 20-something years. I also simultaneously have my own struggles and my own battles, as everyone in ministry and any human that's breathing does. My struggle was always felt like a little bit different. It felt like I didn't, it felt other than, it felt not normalized. It felt way bigger than everyone else's. And in that, my struggle was with same-sex attraction. So my entire life, as far back as I can remember, that had been part of me. Just a story that I had to unravel over all of my years and figure out. And for so long, I lived in shame and secrecy and tried to fix this problem on the surface level, and then had to go through so much counseling to understand who I am in Christ and the freedom that I have now found after all the years of working through all of this and unraveling all the deep places and really dealing with the Lord in all of this and seeing what's possible and believing what's possible for my life and not living in shame and secrecy. You know, my my struggle was very private for a long time. And little by little, through accountability, through community, it opened up to more and more people. And as it continued to open up, I just got to a point where my wife and I really just felt like we were carrying this God story that was miraculous. Like for me, it's miraculous that I'm married and that I have three kids. That's the Jesus miracle that's happened in my life. I felt like if I ended my life and never shared that, I talked about it and pointed men to that is possible. It's not the goal. Marriage to me is not the goal. It's holiness, it's living in the light, it's vulnerability and following after Jesus. But it all of these things are on the table for guys that often don't feel like it's on the table. And because I believe so strongly in that, we took a really big step of faith. And a year ago, last February, we felt like the best way we could do that was through a podcast form of sharing our story. That way people could hear our heart in it. We want people to see that we're not judging anyone, that we we love people, but we we see Jesus as the answer, we see the Bible as truth. And so we opened our life up very vulnerably to the world a year ago and so shared our story through all these episodes of a podcast and the first five episodes in the podcast of Open Spaces Unravel Our Story. And we started a nonprofit with Open Spaces Collective to help its donor raise that way and it funds our ministry. But we have a lot of dreams of like having retreats. The amount of people since we have launched our uh podcast that have reached out and said, Me too, I've never told my wife that this is my struggle. We we don't know how to talk about it. We're struggling in marriage, I've cheated. Hundreds and hundreds of men that and and women that have reached out to us and we're watching the fruit of like, okay, when we were we took this step of faith to throw our life out there and be really vulnerable in hopes that it would shed light on, hey, you're not alone. There is possibility, there's freedom on the table. You know, I've seen a lot of women talk about this, but I have never really seen men talking about it. And I want to follow after him. I want to like see what he's doing. And so for me, I was like, if, you know, I want to be that example and I want to be somebody who lives my life in the light and is open in the ways that I feel like the Lord has called me to, in order to bring freedom to people around me and not just stand and lead worship on a Sunday and walk away and live a hidden life. Because I've also seen how that has taken so many guys out of ministry. And I'm one step away from all of this. So I'm not in any way putting elevating myself above anyone because I know my depravity and where I'm prone to wonder. But I also just want to be like, hey, like with there's some steps that you can put in place and truly find freedom with whatever the struggle is in your life, whether that's same sex attraction or pornography or whatever that whatever's pulling you away from God's best for your life, those things are why we spoke into this area and why we started the Open Spaces Collective and the Open Spaces podcast. Praise God.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

It's not easy to be open and vulnerable, but yet it's so worth it.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

It's absolutely worth it. You know, when we pulled the trigger a year ago on our the night before we were releasing this podcast, like our close friends know, and like and anybody I had been in ministry with, like pastors, I had said, you know, if I'm if I'm leading on your stage and stuff, like I need you need to know this about me. And I've been very vulnerable with a handful of people and a good amount of people in my mind. And that was happening already, but it was like the night before we pulled the trigger. We're like, we have a really great life. Like, why would we are we about to blow it up? Like, why would we blow this up? And we we considered the cost. We looked at it all and we were like, it's still, it's absolutely worth it to help men not feel alone and find freedom in all of these things. So, and we've seen the fruit of it. To me, that's the Jesus life of like you you trust him, you follow him, that's where faith enters, you trust the big steps that he calls you to, and then you step into it. And now we didn't do it for any other reason other than to help people, and the fruit that we're seeing is just like the kindness of God to us to be like helping people now and getting to speak into all these different lives and couples, and it's really amazing. It's mind-blowing to

Where Secrecy And Acting Out Lead

SPEAKER_01 6:17

me.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Jeff, while you were still completely alone in all of this and hiding and struggling, where did these attractions take you?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

They took me to the gym, the locker room, they took me to dark places, traveling alone, finding outlets to experience, you know, and dive into these desires fully. And what it eventually did is so like, you know, those anonymous encounters that that I would have, which is, you know, if you don't know what that means, it's just acting out with someone you don't know, and then, you know, have having this one night thing, and then often it's like that's it. You're you never talk or see that person again, never exchange names, that kind of thing. The next morning, after every single time, I all I was left with, it was never fulfilled. It was never a fulfillment thing. Every single day after it was guilt, shame, hating myself, just disgust, feeling gross about myself, which you need to pay attention to. Like, if that's how you feel, is it really satisfying your desires to do that? Like, and that's where I just was like, it isn't. It feels so real in the moment, but it's the enemy putting this false thing in front of you for fulfillment, and it just doesn't fulfill. And what it eventually even did was take me like places where I wanted to take my life. Like, I did not like who I was, I didn't see a way that I could keep take another step because I was so engrossed, self-centered, and only seeing my own desire, my own thing. My eyes were not open to like, how does God want to use this in my life? How does God want to take these desires and all of this and turn it into redeem it all? Like, how what is that possible? Like, or do I just not believe that's possible? I'll tell everyone from a stage as a worship leader, like, God can do anything, but oh, he cannot mess with my desires. Like, he can't, he can't change those things. He can't no, like, I believe that it was possible, which is what led me to the life of obedience that I'm living now, and I've seen how that has changed over time. But those those things were very dark. It took me into very dark places, and praise God that he has taken me out of those things.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Amen. As you have processed your origin story, what have you learned about how same-sex attraction developed for you?

Letting Go Of The Origin Question

SPEAKER_00 8:37

It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

I don't think that I could have a specific answer to it because I've I've really tried to study it, you know. I've tried to figure out how did this start and is this part of my DNA? Is this like how I was born, or is this like because of circumstances? And for me, you know, as far back as I can remember, this was how my mind worked and what I was attracted to. Just to, I was that's just how I operated. And so it's interesting because as I've tried to figure it all out, I've I think I'm just at the place now of like I don't really know the answer to how it all came about. Yes, I had situations that that led me and pushed me further into the hidden secret life and acting out and in these anonymous encounters and all these things that I have done that probably perpetuated my sin. But as far as it has developed, I'm just, you know, I'm kind of at this point going, I don't really know how that all came to be, but I I trust that God is using it in ways that only He can. And I'm okay to not know that answer. I'm okay at this point to just be like, I don't really know exactly how that all transpired in my mind and what all happened and how it could have looked different, if this didn't happen in high school, if this wouldn't have changed in college. I think I'd go crazy if I tried to figure all that out. I just kind of go, today, the cards on the table are that I am same-sex attracted. I'm not afraid to say it. I'm not bound in shame. I'm living in freedom and I'm okay with this being my life. And honestly, because I believe a lot of times that those hard things in our life become our greatest ministry. And that's where I'm getting to live into of like the hard thing for me that I've struggled and wrestled with my whole life, trying to figure it out. Now just resting in it and saying, you know, yes, it is still a temptation, but I will not give into it. I will choose Jesus, the Bible, and keep moving. And yeah, so that's kind of how I see all that. I know.

Ministry While Compartmentalized

SPEAKER_00 10:33

What was it like for you to carry this secret while stepping into ministry?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Man, I wish it would have been different. You know, like I became a Christian growing up. My parents took us to church, and you know, I was doing church, but in religion. But it changed for me in college when I met the Lord. I was at a collegiate conference, a couple thousand college students at this conference called Passion. I meet the Lord, and in that moment, I remember just like making all these false promises, like I'll never act out in this, you know. And now that I'm a Christian, like that's not gonna be, I'm never gonna give in to those temptations and make all these false promises. But I didn't have discipleship in that moment that would have said, no, you might fail in some of these things, but that's where grace comes in. And every day is a step towards from the way I look at it, like towards sobriety from that and and and moving towards holiness. And but as I did that and felt this call in my life to step into ministry and be a leading worship, I didn't see it being talked about anywhere in the church. Like there was nowhere in my church that it was discussed. It was a hidden topic. It was the thing that I can't even imagine if I ever had brought it up. Like, you know, like I think that the challenge there was I felt like a dichotomy of like I was two different people, like, you know, fighting the struggle over here, and then showing up and having this genuine pure desire to like lead people in worship and and the way that I felt about the Lord and like loving him. And I needed discipleship to merge my worlds and instead of compartmentalizing all these different areas of my life. So the way that played out was like I did compartmentalize for those early years of ministry, and it led me down a very dark path. Like it led me down a path of just hating myself because the guilt and shame after I would act out of like, I can't do this. Why am I doing this? I'm that was very real. There were moments that I just didn't want to live because I didn't see another way out. If I'm attracted to guys, there's no family on the table for me. There's no way I can get married. But again, all internally in secret and in ministry, locking that and not trying to say anything and trying to put on the right face. I really learned through counseling how to not compartmentalize all these things and to move everything into a whole life and what that looked like to live a life where I could talk about it and tell my pastor and be like, hey, this is something that I struggle with. And I'm terrified that you're gonna say you can't lead worship, and then being met with like, okay, like I have struggles too. And when Grace met me in that within the church, within ministry, my life began not being compartmentalized and moving into a healthy whole lifestyle. But those were those early days. We're really hard. It was very hard without the church uh speaking into this topic.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

When did things start to change for you?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

My

Telling Jordan And Finding Grace

SPEAKER_01 13:25

wife and I, my wife now, of we've been married 15 years. We dated for 10 years, so we have quite the saga of dating. Three major breakups in the 10 years. In the middle of us dating within the 10 years, there was a moment that we were going through like a book, a dating book together. And at this point, I was 28. I had not shared this struggle with anyone. There had been earlier things that had happened in my life that I had talked to my parents about, but that had kind of been left way years in the past and never talked about again. And we kind of got to this place when I was 28 in this relationship, about to break up for the second time with my now wife, Jordan. And her and I were going through this book, and she could tell something was wrong that it asked some questions, something happened in your life that you know you want to talk about or something. And I met her one night, she said, I can see something's off. I'm gonna give you two days to process this, but you have to tell me whatever is happening. Like, I want to know. We can't keep moving forward. I was terrified. We took two days away from each other and we met two days later, and we met, and it was the first time that I ever actually verbalized all of this. I told her, you know, I know that we're in this dating relationship, but like I'm attracted to guys, so it means it's over. And I truly loved her, and I I wanted this friendship with we had this such a deep friendship. It was just the sexual attraction and all the sexual peace that I couldn't reconcile in my head, which I was going way too far ahead and trying to figure way too many things out at that point. But when I told her my struggle for the first time at 28, she didn't respond with, oh, gross, or oh wow. Her response was, I believe that God has something for us in this. I'm not going anywhere. I am moving towards you, and I'm willing to work this out. And let's keep talking about what it looks like for you. Totally unexpected, for what I would have ever thought. You know, and so when she said that, it was just shocking to me. And also, like, I'm crying, like we're having this moment which emotionally and that was intimate for us. You know, we're like holding each other, and I'm just crying, and like, gosh, like I didn't expect that grace that you're giving me, like Jesus. And that is where it changed for me. Because that that was the first time I saw, oh, there is a world where we can talk openly about our struggles. And someone that meets you with that curiosity of like, what's that like for you? Instead of, oh, I that's too much for me and turn and walk away. She leaned into me and asked more questions. What's it like? Let's talk about it. I want to understand how you think. And when she did that, that actually moved me towards her. And then, you know, long road still, five more years after that, uh, to wrap up our 10-year dating history before we got married. But that is where things changed, where I saw what was possible because of my wife being Jesus to me and extending grace.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

That's so beautiful. And it goes against many of the assumptions that many people have about what is possible for someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex. So there's this internal narrative of well, I can't date, I can't get married, I can't be a husband, I can't be a dad, maybe I can't be a worship leader, I can't be in ministry. And you've basically disproved all of those lies. Yeah. God has disproved those lies through your story. That's right. How did you decide to pursue Jordan and eventually to marry her?

Choosing Obedience One Day At Time

SPEAKER_01 17:01

I had to make a lot of choices in these moments. You know, am I going to just choose my desires and just follow after my desires? And where does that lead? And I had to look ahead and think about the life that I was wanting and what I was creating. And I talk to guys about this all the time. If you're only living it today in your desires and just like acting out in your desires, that is creating your tomorrow. So when you look ahead and go, okay, what I want is a family. Like what I want is to honor God with my life. What I want is to be hope to people and show Jesus to people, that's where I looked. And I knew that the anonymous encounters when I'd wake up in the morning and feel horrible about myself and live in guilt and shame was not giving me, getting me to the path that I wanted to. And so, as hard as it was for me to try to figure out what is this going to look like to pursue a woman and wrestle with all of what does not feel natural to me, now that's changed over time. But in those early days, it was such a hard thing of like, okay, I'm choosing you, but I will I ever be sexually fully fulfilled and all of these things that my mind wondered, but I just kept taking small steps of obedience towards her and opening my life up to guys that I was walking with and finding what accountability looked like and having guys point me, you know, and saying, like, yes, the call of a Christian is to deny yourself and to pick up your cross and follow Jesus daily. And so just do that today. Stop thinking about 10 years from now, but just every single day, like just kind of take those small steps of obedience that ultimately could get you to your future. And I wanted that. I saw in her the person that I wanted to be with. Like I was like, I want to look more like her, the way that she loves people, the way that she loves Jesus. And it moved me towards her. And that our friendship is what kept making me come back to like, there's nothing better. I have the best time with her. And I believed that God, and we were both worship leaders. So we were like leading worship together, and we just saw that the Lord was doing something. And I didn't want to just walk away from that and be like, well, I'll never know what that could have been. So I just kept taking the step of obedience, which was to be with her. And I'm so grateful I did because now, you know, as I said, we have three kids, and like I look back at these kids and I'm like, they're miracles to me. Like, I believe the Lord is gonna use our kids that He has great plans for them because they're in this story with us and they're learning about their dad and what all this means for our family. But in a way of like, no, but there's hope for whatever struggles you're gonna walk through. I just want to model that well. You know, I want to model like how to have accountability and walk through whatever struggles you're gonna have. But with Jordan and I, it was always just a choice of I choose you, and I think that that everyone can relate that is married, that is marriage. Like, no matter if it's same-sex attraction or whatever, it's waking up every day and I choose you, I choose to serve you, lay my life down for you, and I'm moving towards you in every way that I have choices today to do.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

How did your feelings toward her start to change, especially to the point of being able to have sex?

Sex Expectations And A Real Marriage

SPEAKER_01 20:06

That was just such a journey for us. I think the dating was really complicated because in dating, you're like, take take same-sex attraction out of it. Like, we were committed to like not have sex before being married, and we weren't going to like, let's just see if it works, you know, then we'll get married. Like, that wasn't on the table for us. And so we really trusted the Lord, and like going into our honeymoon was very much like trusting God. Like, all right, you have come through in all these other ways. Will you come through again? And he did. We have such a narrative around sex and what it should look like, and I do believe a lot of that is based off of porn and what everyone has their you know mindset on of like it's just perfect and it all how beautiful it is, and all this stuff. And it is amazing when it's done in the right way with the Lord like in the center of it and and connecting with someone. But we went in and it was like, okay, we have to figure this out. It was messy and like for how it worked for us and what we've come to realize as we've as we have counseled all these younger couples, not that it are same-sex attraction, just and our, you know, people in church and stuff that were young couples getting married and walking through counseling with us, and it's messy. And we always like, you know, it's gonna be different for you. It's gonna like this was our experience, but it's gonna look different for you, and you're gonna struggle, and one of you might not want to have sex as much, and what the other one might. And just having to compromise and figure that out is hard for everybody. So when I normalized even that and stopped putting so much emphasis on, oh my gosh, I'm attracted to guys, but now I'm married to a woman, and how how can this work? And that's been my whole thing with same sex attraction. It's so elevated and so other than in our culture, society, well, within the church, like culture and society is like we're in it, like this is accepted, it's everywhere. But within the church, it's so other than. And when it is, it creates this whole mentality of I can't, I don't fit in, I don't belong, everything's different for me. It wasn't really. That's different for me when I think about you know, like I was I was figuring it out and having to figure out what that looked like with my wife. But as everyone that can relate in a marriage has to figure out your sex life, like you figure that out. And we have figured that out, and it's just over time, even it's gotten so much better, just as like I would say most couples, and I'm so grateful for that. You know, that that's where we're at today.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

That's so cool. From men who are sexually attracted to other men, I often hear this desire to somehow arrive at a finish line of like, oh, I'm fully free from this or healed from this, or it's not an issue anymore. What does the journey actually look like for

Redefining Healing Through Community

SPEAKER_00 22:44

you?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

I have been pretty vocal about the fact that I still struggle with this same-sex attraction and my desires. Like that's still a wrestle for me. And I believe God can do anything. So I've heard stories of guys that are like that went away from me, and now I'm only attracted to women. And I'm like, great, that's awesome for them. And I do believe God can do that. But for me, he that hasn't been the case for me. So it still is the thorn in my side that brings me back to him daily and keeps me tethered to him in a different kind of way. You know, in the beginning, I prayed for healing. Like that's I just wanted to be healed. Like, what did healing look like? In my mind, it was like that just would be out of my life. God take it away. Jordan, my wife, prayed for that, prayed that for me because it was just this naive of a thing of like, well, that's the only way we can be find healing in this. And I will say, like, after decades of wrestling with the Lord and working on it and really doing all this hard work, what I have found is like for me, the healing has truly just been the reality that like accepting that this is part of my story, the acceptance and loving myself and being like, you know, that doesn't make me less than, it is acknowledged that it is my sin, that that's what I have to wake up with and fight daily. But it is the truly the thing that keeps me more tethered to the Lord, like I said, and I and when my desires flare up and you know I'm attracted to a guy, like I know that I have to kill that and I I have ways to do that. But it's also the healing has come so much through my accountability, my community, my peep, my guys in my life that I meet with weekly, telling them everything, not letting things fester in my head and grow to where you know the silence, shame, secrecy, all that is what I'm killing. That's that's where I'm like, get rid of that. That's the true healing for me is I can wake up today and fight these same-sex desires and have victory today in that while because I am sharing that with others and open and living a life that I don't feel hidden. My wife knows when I'm struggling, my wife knows how my mind works. I feel seen, known, loved. And I'm like, that's the best life ever. Like, there's a lot of heterosexual people married that you we talk to that don't have that in their marriage. And I'm like, I have a really great marriage and life, and I'm just grateful. And that's the healing for me, is just, yeah, I didn't go away, but I have found ways to work through that and to love my life and all of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

That is the best life of being known and seen and loved. Absolutely.

Healthy Brotherhood Versus Sexualized Closeness

SPEAKER_00 25:18

What's the difference between the healthy brotherhood you have now versus the sexualized version that you have craved?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Ooh, that's a great question. I think the sexual version that I crave is false. It's it's just like porn, it's not real. It's this thing of like you can go act out and like have a desire met in a second that's fleeting and it's not lasting, versus the intimacy that I have created now with my wife is like this is true friendship, intimacy, being known, specifically with my community of guys, like how I have learned how to like walk through that. You know, when I first started talking through all this, it was hard. One of the first guys, I just had him on our podcast, but like it was it was challenging. Like I told him, and I was still trying to figure out how I could be close to a guy, but not be intimate. Like that was like how I had to that was as weird as I did say, like that was just the reality of where I was at, you know. I wanted to be close to you, so that mean it meant I have to be intimate. Well, that was the beginning work of many, many years of understanding like I can be close to someone and have very healthy relationships with guys and be very, very close to them without the intimacy side. And a lot of that was like wounds and father things and all those in me that had to be worked through and thought through and talked about. But now on this side of it, there is just a really healthy way that I deal with friendships and boundaries and with guys in my life. And we've come a long way from where I started. And that's quite a journey. And it's a starting point for everybody. So it's like the guy listening today that's like, I've never done this, I've never shared. It might be messy at the beginning. It might be messy stepping into that and start sharing that, but it's worth it. It is worth it because you grow in the process, you just continue to grow and grow and grow to get to the place where you're like, Oh, this is like normal everyday stuff where I'm just kind of sharing my weaknesses with these guys and close to them and feel connected to them, but in a very healthy way.

How To Share And How To Respond

SPEAKER_00 27:19

For someone who doesn't have that, who's living in silence, shame, secrecy, and darkness, what's your best encouragement?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

My best encouragement is you are worth being known and loved. And you are loved by the creator of the universe, but you are worth being known. And I think that's a narrative a lot of guys just kind of think, you know, I'm not worth it, and no one really wants to know me. And that's not true. We were all created for community. And so when you silo yourself, you just are creating this space of in isolation, is where the enemy loves to work. And I have seen that play out over and over and over. So just being honest with yourself about, you know, if it's hard to find that one guy or take that step towards who could that be, even if it's a pastor, of sitting down with a pastor and being like, hey, like I, this is like how my brain works or how I how I'm whether it's same sex attraction, whatever else, like there is somebody in your world, if you set and really thought about that you could take a step towards, and you're not in charge of their response. So, you know, whatever the response might be, like it might, it might be great or it might be not what you expected or not what you want. But practicing that vulnerability kind of helps you foster that life of like, you know, take those steps and keep taking the steps. And eventually it will click with somebody. You know, somebody's going to say, Oh, thank you for sharing what I have found when I'm vulnerable with somebody, like finding that guy and sharing your thing or your story. Vulnerability really leads to vulnerability. Like when I share something, like it's very rare that I wouldn't share my struggle with somebody and them say, Thank you so much for sharing that. I want to tell you, like, it makes me think like this is my thing. And they share their thing and they're like, Oh, well, I didn't even ask for that. But because you felt safe, because I'm trusting you with my story, you know, you you give that back. And I just want to say to the person, you know, we're talking about the guy who is struggling with how to like find or how to take a step towards that. I want to say to the person, the receiver of that, the guy that that this person comes to and may share something really hard with you. It really matters how you respond to them. It matters how like your first initial reaction to whatever the thing is, they'll remember that forever. So just be people today that are not shocked by the story, but will like hear the story and and be ready for that. Like be people who live on mission to like let others feel free to talk to you and be a safe place for people. So don't let your face show, oh gosh, this is so worse than everything else. Or what you know, like step into that with them and just thank you so much for sharing with me. And that means a lot. And I and you don't have to understand it all. Like, I don't need a guy to understand same-sex attraction to share my story and relate to him. It's different for him, whatever his thing is. So it's really just about being kind to each other and being curious about what is your story and why, how did that happen? And like, how do you feel? How does that make you feel? How do you process that? Those things matter a lot when you're trying to work on what it's like to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

And that's the culture that you're creating at open spaces.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yes, that's the hope. That is our hope,

Where To Connect And Final Blessing

SPEAKER_01 30:32

man.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

So, everyone, you can learn more about Jeff, connect with him, and listen to his podcast at the links in the show notes. Jeff, thank you so much for being with us. Yes, thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. Gentlemen, always remember no matter what your thing is, you are God's beloved son. And you, he as well, please.