SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Thank you so much for listening to my interview with Clinton and Charity Munoz. Their story is amazing, their perspective is pioneering. What they're doing is incredible, and I hope that many of you will get connected with them. You will hear how couples in sexual recovery can help each other heal. Both the unfaithful spouse and the betrayed spouse, as the case may be. It's inspiring, it's incredible. I can't wait for you to hear it. And remember that the views expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect

Show Mission And Guest Disclaimer

SPEAKER_01 0:50

the views of Husband Material Ministries. Featuring a guest is not an endorsement of their beliefs, methods, products, services, or any content they may have created or promoted. We believe in discernment. So as with any resource, listen thoughtfully, test everything against sound wisdom and your own convictions, take what's helpful, and leave the rest behind. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to Husband Material. We are here with Clinton and Charity Munoz, founders of Restore to More, and the co-authors of The Bridge Back to Us, which is an eight-week course with videos, with workbooks, with an incredible learning experience for you to restore safety, trust, and communication. Welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

Thanks for having us. We sound so official. Nobody's ever said co-authored. Wow. Thanks, Drew. Are we authors?

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Drew, it's so good to be with you, man. Thank you so much for having us on. It is so great to just see you and connect again.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

It was fun catching up just before we started recording. Some people might not realize that this is your second interview on husband

Meet Restore To More Founders

SPEAKER_01 2:00

material. For those who didn't hear the first one, could you remind us what led you to start Restored to More?

SPEAKER_05 2:09

Our ministry was his birth out of our story. So we almost got divorced and Clinton had addiction. Yeah, he was unfaithful. And he started going to groups and doing all the things, seeing the therapist. And like a lot of wives, we think and we have this perspective and kind of like narrative that once he heals, our marriage will heal. Well, I realized, okay, he's doing great and our marriage isn't healing and I'm still suffering. So I now go on my own journey and do therapy and women's groups and all the books on betrayal trauma and all the things. The Lord had already made it clear to me that I was to stay and that our story was going to be used as a light at a very dark tunnel. And I didn't know what that meant yet, but I just was holding on to that for hope. And a couple of years into recovery, the Lord

Why Couple Focused Recovery Matters

SPEAKER_05 2:58

impressed on Clinton to ask me, like, hey, what's what's the deal? Like, what are we doing with our story? And I was like, well, the Lord told me to start a podcast. And he's like, okay, let's do it. We need to be obedient. So we started a podcast, and it really was more so about us talking about how we built communication, intimacy, and just our relationship. We had found that there was a lot for her on betrayal trauma, a lot for him with sexual addiction and intimacy disorders, but there was not a lot for the coupleship. Like we were just like, man, is there a manual out there? Like, what does it say in the Bible when someone's been unfaithful? Like, how do we restore us together? Because us, we were not the same people when everything happened. And so we went through so much trial and error. And really, that's why we started Restored to More was we felt like there was kind of a gap in the recovery industry. And we just wanted to be like, hey, we felt like we need to be obedient to what God had pressed on our heart. And that was to share a story, to share how God healed us and then healed our relationship.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

You've been doing this for years. You've been pioneering something I've never seen before. This bridge back to us course. As I went through it, I just thought, wow, wow. This is so good. Like, oh my word. It's solid. It's simple. It's deep. It's respectful. It's safe. I mean, this is truly remarkable. And I hope a lot of people will go down to the link in the show notes and check it out. You are not only leading groups of couples who are doing this work together, you're training leaders to do it. What is it like for couples to be rebuilding trust together in a small group?

SPEAKER_03 4:53

So you get couples in the same room, either physically or on Zoom together that have the same story. And they're like, How is that going to go? And what we've seen is it's incredible. I mean, it's it's way beyond what we could have ever hoped for. We didn't really know how it was gonna go. I mean, I'll I'll never forget our first group. And we're like, how is this gonna go? Like, what is gonna happen here? How do we keep it safe? We had we had boundaries around communication, what you could say and couldn't say, and we were gonna try to limit the triggering atmosphere as much as possible. And then we found something that was so special that happened so organically that we didn't we couldn't even take credit for it. And what happened, Drew, in those circles was let's say it was us sitting here and we were a couple, and there was another couple across from us sharing. That whenever Charity shared with me her her symptoms of betrayal trauma or her experience

What Makes Couples Groups Feel Safe

SPEAKER_03 5:43

or her emotions or her processing the pain, it was really hard for me to listen, right? Because immediately I got I I didn't want to, but I got defensive, right? Or I felt shame or I felt guilt. And so I couldn't just sit there with empathy, I couldn't even process what she was saying. I wanted to, but I couldn't fight all these other emotions, and it was really, really challenging. But what happens to most men is that when another woman shares that isn't their wife, they don't have the exact response with guilt and shame. And so they sit there and they just start weeping because now they've for the first time ever, they've actually gr got it. They're grabbing a hold of what their wife has been saying. And and all of a sudden we see the guy, I mean, this happens almost in every group, during the guy looks at the wife and he's like, I finally get what you've been trying to explain to me. And then the wife is just like, oh my god, it's just a magical Holy Spirit moment where you're like, Okay, God, you are in this, you're moving. And so we just see so many guys be able to understand what their wife has gone through from the perspective of other wives in the group because they don't have that initial knee-jerk reaction to get defensive or to to minimize it. Like they can't, they can't like dismiss what all of these wives are feeling. And we've heard the same thing, I don't know if you'll know it from the wives, but we had a wife say this just a couple weeks ago. She goes, Wow, it's so crazy for me. Because I know my husband has told me his story of struggling and being abused and different things. But when I hear that it happened across the board with these other men, and to see them being stuck in the same patterns my husband was in, I'm really able to connect with the younger version of him and see that this, even though every betrayed spouse knows like this wasn't about me, I didn't cause this. She's like seeing how, man, this started in all these guys' stories way before they were married, way before they were even in college. And so, yes, as betrayed spouses, we are greatly impacted by this, but we can like tangibly see how we didn't cause it. Oh, it's so good, Drew. I mean, that that's like one example of like, okay, Lord, you're in this, you're doing great things that we never even could have imagined or planned.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

And that is so unique. I don't hear many people saying, I'm going through a group together with my wife, together with other couples, and it seems like something's missing there.

SPEAKER_05 8:11

It's been so beautiful, too. Like our course is eight weeks, and normally what ends up happening is we kind of like sign off. We're like, hey guys, bye. See you later, great job. But then we'll check in with some of the people in the groups and we'll be like, Hey, how's it going? They're like, Oh man, we're still meeting with our group. We've met with them at the same day, same time. Now we're going through a different study. And and oh, we've met up. We found out we're three hours away from each other, or we've had one couple who was literally in Canada, and then another couple was in like Ohio, and they met up and they drove across across the border to go see each other and hang out because the community that's built is so rich. When this happens in your story, the enemy wants you to feel so alone. Like you're the only one who's going through this. And it feels like I can't tell anybody, nobody's gonna get me. And what we want so badly in the beginning of recovery,

The Week One Stories Breakthrough

SPEAKER_05 9:00

at least I wanted, was I just wanted somebody to really understand me. Like I just constantly remember hearing from other women when they were going through hard things. And I just remember being like, okay, but you still don't get me. Like your husband didn't cheat on you. Like, I'm having PTSD, like I'm having triggers, my hair is falling out, like I'm losing weight. Like, I know you're going through a hard thing, but I it was just so hard. And I just so badly wanted someone else to be on the other side and be like, you get me. And that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

And that's what you're saying. Also, the missing component there was that you also wanted restoration in our relationship.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

And so I think what we've been able to identify is that these are like-minded couples where they they're not just hurt and in pain and feeling isolated, but they're yearning for other couples that want restoration. And so that's where most of the work is, Drew. I mean, not everybody is ready for our course, and we get that. But there are couples, and what we try to do is identify the right heart for a couple that's ready for the course. And that's typically when both spouses are willing to do the work of recovery and healing. And both spouses want restoration, they really want to experience wholeness in Christ after this really, really broken part of their story. And so now you have a few couples that together that are all like-minded and they want the same thing. It's it's really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Can you help us imagine what it's like to be in a group like that?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. What we tend to see is, I mean, I'll share and then you can share. I'll share from the guy's perspective, from the husband. Everyone's nervous. I mean, they're terrified. I mean, we, I'm just gonna We're terrified.

SPEAKER_05 10:40

Yeah, we don't know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah, I mean, we we've done the best we can to kind of find the right, yeah, you know, identify the right aspects of a couple joining, but you know, I'm gonna go from the husband's perspective because I know I've I've had a many chats with these men, and they come in and they're terrified. They're like, okay, is my wife gonna get triggered? Am I gonna get triggered? How's this gonna go? I've never heard other wives talk about their brokenness. I've never a lot of these guys have come from other courses and groups where they've openly shared with other men, right? They've like laid their heart out there, but they've never done that with a female present. So they're like, what is gonna happen? And then they're like terrified of the other guys in the group. They know what these guys tend to share in circles like that. I'm like, how's my wife gonna respond to what that guy's gonna share? So there is just fear. I just totally fear. They're terrified. And that's why we train our ambassadors so well to like mitigate that, to pray before, to make it feel safe, to read the safety guidelines, to make sure everyone knows, like, hey guys, we're all here. We all want the same thing. This is how we're gonna go about it. And week one, I mean, we don't waste any time, Drew. You have an eight-week course, you can't afford to waste a week.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

It's not an eight-month course, this is eight weeks, and so we're like, all right, we got to get into it. And so what we have right away is the first week is that we've actually said, hey, before we meet, you're gonna write out your story as an individual. And so the husbands write out their story and they go, This is my story of brokenness, this is my story of pain, of addiction, of whatever that entails. And then the wife writes out their story. Let's say that in this situation, we have had couples go through it where the unfaithful spouse was the wife, but for this situation, most of the time, the unfaithful spouse is the husband, the betrayed spouse is the wife. We have again seen both, but let's say the husband's gonna share his story, and so week one, they share their story. And week one, the facilitator is trained on how to navigate that. Each individual has shared their childhood, their trauma, their brokenness to the best of their ability, the addiction that, or the, or the again, the sexual brokenness that it that it led into, even and they're connecting always to the feelings. We're so big on going back to their feelings. So it's not just like, here's what happened, but here's what I felt. And so when I saw pornography for the first time, here's what I felt. When a pastor shamed me after I admitted failure, here's what I felt. The first time I acted outside of my marriage, here's what I felt. When my wife found out that I was betraying her, here's what I felt. And so by and large, let's say you have five couples in that group, ten people shared their story. They may not have connected on the details of their story, but what they did connect on was the emotions. They did connect on the feelings of helplessness and hopelessness and shame and fear. I mean, you name it, right? Whatever that was, overwhelming doubt that they could ever find freedom, whatever it was, they they connected and they resonated. And then so the wives connected, the men connected. I mean, week one is like, man, get your tissue box ready because there's gonna be a lot of tears. But at the same time, at the end of week one, they're all the men form a group right away, a texting group with each other, and the wives form a texting group with each other, and it just seems like those texting groups blow up, and they're like, dude, I want to talk to you more, I want to hear more of your story, I want to call you. When are you free? And it just kind of organically creates this week one setting that's like, okay, guys, we're here, we're real, we're all broken. We all need Jesus desperately, and we are seeking for him to do a great work, and we're believing he's gonna do it. And so, I mean, I that's like that's the week one of an eight-week program that's like, let's go, you know, would you add to that at all?

SPEAKER_05 14:20

No, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

It's pretty powerful, it's awesome, Drew. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

It's an amazing, mind-blowing idea. I can imagine myself in a group like that. Why do you emphasize sharing emotions more than facts?

SPEAKER_05 14:35

Oh, that's good. I believe that yes, facts are you can say they're important. And what I feel like we really need as humans is to feel seen, known, and validated. And we need to know what the feeling is. When there's a feeling associated, then you can connect with them on a deeper level and you can really build that intimacy. So for Clinton and I, I mean, we even say that regardless of in our group or not, like we're always trying to connect. Like, let's say we don't see eye to eye. I'll be like, okay, but what are you feeling? When we're talking to our kids and they're angry, I'm like, but what are you feeling? Like what happened? Because I can connect to the feeling. I can't always connect to what happened, but I can connect to

Feelings Create Empathy Faster

SPEAKER_05 15:20

your feeling. I can understand if you're feeling betrayed. I can understand if you're feeling deceived or manipulated or I can go to a time where I have felt that before, right? And so the connection is so much more richer, deep, real. And I really believe it's this really connects not only you to your spouse, but to other couples too. Would you add anything to that?

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Oh, it's good. It adds a layer too of introspection, like when you're like, oh, I need to dig deeper than just telling you what happened. I need to work on my emotional awareness and building that. And so we're really big on that. I think most people, when it's stuff that is really painful, it's like, oh, I need to go there with my feelings. And so when we choose to go there and go deeper than just reporting what happened, we find that man, we we've all experienced those feelings at some level. Like you, I'm basically just reading what you said, but with different experiences, we can still relate to those feelings and it draws out empathy. I mean, how many of us, like even as guys, when when our when our wife shares what happened, we don't know how to respond. When she says, Man, this is what it's made me feel, it's made me feel alone. I'll never forget one time Cher and I got in an argument and she went in the closet and she was just crying. We were still like post-argument, five minutes, right? And so I'm still kind of like, I mean, I'm right, and she's wrong. There's no doubt about that, you know. But like, you know, why you're angry? And I'm still trying to make a point. And so I kind of like I know she goes in there and I follow her in the closet and she's on the ground, she's crying, and I'm like, man, like what's what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

And she shares and she goes, You just triggered this like core belief that I am just not good enough, and I am feeling so defeated and small and isolated and alone, and I'm feeling just all these horrible feelings.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

And my response, Drew, completely changed from like wanting to be right to just wanting to hold her. And I was like, Well, man, screw the argument. Like, I'm so sorry that I made you feel that way. And so I think when we share feelings, it creates a different response in everybody around us.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Have you seen that as well, Drew? I just want to ask you. I mean, I just want to I'm like, what about you? Would you add to that?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yes, it's a hot topic in our conversations in the husband material community right now, because a lot of men are not connecting with their wives. And oftentimes they are going nowhere in conversations. To use the language you use in the bridge back to us, the relational circuits are turned off. Some of those safety boundaries you have in your in your groups are not there. The boundary of no criticizing comments, the boundary of no comparison, using I statements instead of you statements, and no spouse bashing.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Very clinical type of terminology here.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

I mean, but that captures the feeling of it. It does.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah, it does. What are relational circuits and why do they matter?

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Oh man. Yeah, well, we we borrowed those. Chris Corsi and some amazing people in the recovery world have just really coined this, and we just don't know a better way to explain it. And so we actually reached out and said, hey guys, we love your terminology. Can we just use it in our stuff? And they're like, totally, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 18:49

Well, impacted us.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

It impacted us so much. But I think of relational circuits like a switch in the brain that make us think relationally or not. So basically, just let's make it really dumbed down. I love when it's like anything for you know, 101, because that's how my brain works. I'm just like really simple. But it's like, man, my light switch is either on or it's off. And if I have a relational switch that's off, everybody is an enemy. I'm just trying to win the argument. I'm just trying to prove a point. I'm probably still in my pain. So I'm not

Relational Circuits And Repair Rituals

SPEAKER_03 19:18

able to even interpret what you're saying in a relational format. I really don't care about your feelings. I care about being right, I care about being seen. And so there's not really trying to reach a resolve that's beneficial for everybody. I'm just thinking about me. I'm still hurt, I'm just kind of stuck. And so everything I'm doing is a reactionary response versus like a response that's healthy. I'm not able to listen with empathy. I'm not able to put myself in your shoes. I'm not able to process your pain. My switch is off.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

So I might go into attack mode, or I might just withdraw and shut down altogether.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Fight, flight, freeze. What's the last one where you just turn into a yes person? All those things. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Oh, fawn.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

That's exactly what I do when my when that switch is off. So turning on my relational circuits is going to help me respond entirely different. I mean, it is it is like black and white. It is literally like the pitch black dark room, or you flip the switch and you have overhead can lighting and like nine of them go on, and you can see every corner of the room.

SPEAKER_05 20:19

Which I want to add, so we sandwich our groups with turning your RCs on in the beginning before starting group and then at the end. And I think it's just so important because we know that more than likely someone may get triggered in group. And so, or they may be walking into group already triggered. And so we know that you can't retain information if your RCs are off. We know that you can't build community when your RCs are off. We know that you can't be who God's created you to be. Like the whole thing is pointless. You're not gonna grow, you're not gonna have freedom, you're not gonna have healing if your RCs are off. And so we want them to get the most out of the course. So you they start the course with turning their RCs off on by just sharing a couple things that they're grateful for. Everybody goes around, and then they get into like the heavy stuff. And at the end, we do another RC activity where everybody gets an appreciation partner. And it's always female to female, male to male, so it's appropriate. And you are appreciating something that that female partner or that male partner said in group. And I can't even tell you like that. Sometimes also is like the most treasured moment of our group is when you hear a couple saying, Man, when you said blah, blah, blah, that just really resonated with me. And I felt seen and thank you so much for that, you know? And you're getting to see live feedback, first of all. You're seeing that wow, they retained information and they're light. I mean, all of a sudden they're smiling. Maybe they were like mad and they got triggered in the middle of group. By the end of it, everyone is laughing. Everyone is like holding their spouse's hand, and it is just like they're ending group with a bow and hope. And it's just like, man, like I can't even tell you how many times I remember leaving my own group and just being more pissed. I'm like, why did I even freaking go tonight? You know, like I'm walking in pissed that I have to be here. I'm leaving pissed that I just, you know, was there for two hours and I'm I'm just more angry at my husband or whatever it is. And I'm coming home and I'm just feeling like crap, honestly. I'm like, this sucks. My life sucks. My situation sucks. My circumstance sucks. I didn't feel seen. Everybody just dumped. And then we left. And it's just like, oh, you know, I just felt like so, oh. And that was my experience in recovery in my group. And so that's really why everything in this workbook stems really from our own personal experience, from what we got in recovery and how just little things that we really felt would make a really big difference in healing, moving forward, and what we would have wanted personally.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

And the reality is, Drew, we were in that same boat that you talked about. We were stuck so many times. And we have so many stories of just personally feeling stuck. You know, moments that we thought would bring us together. I'll never forget coming home one day from therapy and being so excited to tell charity this epiphany that I had with my counselor. I was like, man, she's gonna want to know this, right? She's she's my partner. Like, she's gonna want to understand that I just connected my sexual brokenness to my childhood brokenness and some father wound issues. And I come home and I'm just oblivious, right? We don't have, we've never been taught how to have healthy communication. We don't know how to have boundary on communication. I can't read the room, like never, you know, whatever. I'm just about me. So I come home. Charity has the ergo. She's got a baby probably on her, you know, she's got a frying pan in one hand, she's cooking something, the baby's in the ergo. There's probably dishes in the sink piling up. And I just come in, I'm like, hey, can I tell you about my my session? And like a loving wife, she's like, yeah, sure. Like, maybe thinking, maybe can you do something while you talk to me? But yeah, I'm not gonna, I don't pick up on that. And so I just start like unloading on her all this really deep stuff. And even though she was like, Yes, tell me, she really meant no, not right now. And she didn't know how to communicate that either. And so it just it just ended bad, right? It ended with like her not listening, me shutting down, me feeling isolated, her feeling like we're never gonna grow, her feeling like, why can't you just help me out? And that is like one small example, Drew, of probably that over a thousand times. And so we were like, what is missing? I'm in recovery, I'm healing, and my wife isn't seeing it. Or charity's over here going, I'm working on getting healing from what Clint's done, and he's unaware that he continues to hurt me. And I'm like, Well, I'm not even acting out. How am I hurting you? You know, and so there's just there's all these misses. And I think what happens in recovery is unintentionally, that stuff compounds. And I can't tell you how many couples reach out to us after years of being in recovery, and they are so distant and they're so far away from each other's hearts because moments like that we just explained that we had personally, that's compounded for years for certain couples. And they've never learned just certain things that could have really helped them along the way. And I think, again, this is all unintentional. I don't think that any ministry, any resource that took place 20, 30 years ago ever saw this happening, but it's kind of just happened. And now we have a bunch of marriages that they want to recover, they want to heal, but they just don't know how. Just don't know where to start, how to begin that journey.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

And you've discovered that a key ingredient of healing the relationship is gratitude and appreciation on both sides.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Yeah. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

That might seem like common sense to some people, but I think it's really radical.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

When you say that too, what happens, I think, too, is I can't even have that unless I begin to understand what she's gone through in recovery. What I experienced, again, this is again so much of this is from our experience. What what we and we'll and the experience that we've learned from others is that so much focus and recovery is about me. And rightfully so. Yeah. Right, rightfully so. I love the analogy a friend just said recently of two people that are drowning trying to like use the other person to not drown. Like that's pretty ineffective. You know, like that's what that basically summarized what we had. Two people that were drowning, and I I can't use her to try to like become a buoy so I can survive. Like, I'm just, we're just, it's not gonna be good. And so at some point, we do have to learn how to swim on our own, how to begin that healing journey, recovery on our own. With that being said, so often I find that either spouse has never really understood what the other spouse is going through in recovery. And I've seen this a lot more. I would say that a lot of times I will hear more often wives trying to understand their husband's addiction or what that's looked like. And so they'll listen to podcasts or read a book. Very seldom do I see husbands reading books about betrayal trauma on their own. Like, oh, you know what? I want to understand my wife's experience. I'm gonna pick up a book on betrayal trauma. That happens sometimes, and like, man, kudos to you. If you're out there and you've done that, like, way to go. I didn't do that, right? I didn't understand my wife, I didn't understand what she was feeling, what she was going through. And then I see her reading this book, and we probably got into an argument, and I'm like, I don't get you. And she's like, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna read this book, and I'm gonna highlight everything that stands out to me, and then I'm gonna put it here so you can read it. That probably wouldn't work for probably a lot of people. And when I picked up that book and I read her highlighted areas, first I couldn't believe it. I was like, What? You have like this is what happens to you? This is how you feel unsafe. This is what you feel when you're triggered. These symptoms you're experiencing, they're connected to betrayal, like your stomach issues and your sciatic issues and your hair loss and weight loss. You think that's because of this? And then wait, wait, there's all these other women who've experienced the same things because of this? Like, wow, okay, I thought you just like you know, had other things going on. And so I started to have empathy, and I think what we learned is like, wow, when you educate the spouse about the other spouse in a non-bashing way, in a non-derogatory way, like you did this, you should feel guilt, you should feel shame. But just this, hey, let's just get educated on the other spouse in order to really work together. That has been so incredible for marriages to take time to go, I want to I want to learn about you, not just about my own journey, and then to do that with other couples has been phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

I believe you. And I see so much commonality in the way that you've structured this course between the two people going through it, especially in the idea of processing your pain with Jesus. How do you do that?

SPEAKER_05 28:57

Alone, together, but all the above?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

All the above. That's such a big question. It is, but like that is the core. Like that's the thing we need.

SPEAKER_05 29:08

So this happened for Clint and I at different times in our recovery. It didn't happen at the same time. So mine happened sooner than his, and it was right actually after a relapse. And I remember being so pissed, so just heartbroken and distraught and just feeling shattered, honestly. Like I really thought once he started recovery, I was seeing changes that it was like smooth sailing from there. And when he had told me that he had a relapse, I was just like, oh

Taking Your Pain To Jesus

SPEAKER_05 29:45

my gosh, what? Like, is this our life? Like, what do you mean? I was so confused. And I remember just leaving and being really upset and angry. And I remember going up to a little mountaintop where I could see a really pretty view and scene scenic area. And I remember playing worship music really, really loud. My windows were up, and I just remember like crying out to the Lord, just like being so distraught and so angry. And I was really angry with God. You know, I was really angry that I had been put through all this. I was really angry that I really thought that I married this amazing Christian man. And I thought we did things the right way, the way that he wanted to, the premarital counseling, saving ourselves, you know, like all of it. Like I thought we did X, Y, Z. And so I was gonna be resulted with, you know, a beautiful night and shining armor, you know, marriage. And and I was so mad that he I felt duped by God. Not only did I feel duped by my husband, I felt duped by God. Like you say do these things, and I thought this was gonna be the result, but it's not. So where are you, God? What the heck? And why? And then I started going and being like, Lord, not only am I duped in my marriage, but like you've seen what I went through when I was younger, the divorce, the molestation, the abuse, all the things, right? And here I am thinking that this was gonna be the one guy that wasn't gonna hurt me. Like, why couldn't you just have given me that God? Like, why couldn't that just be the gift? You know, like, please. And I remember just being so angry, tears are down my face. And I just remember this still quiet voice that said, Charity, I've always been here. I've I've caught every tear, and I have never betrayed you. I have never left you. Cause I was like, Lord, my parents betrayed me when they got divorced, my boyfriends have betrayed me, you know, named my friends, now my husband. I'm like, really? And he was like, I have never betrayed you. I have never turned my back on you, I've never left you. And just like, come to me in this and like get really tight with me. And in that moment, I realized, whoa, I had put in Clint on the throne of my heart. And the Lord was saying, remove him from the throne of your heart, because you cannot rely on man. Like, if if I if I were to look at Clint's track record, then his track record was all up and down and who knows what. But the Lord was like, look at my track record. I will be faithful, I will always be there, I will comfort you, I will heal you, I remind you of truth, I will give you the comfort that you need, the healing that you need, everything I will be there for you. And so that was the moment that I really released Clinton and put the Lord like one-on-one. It was no matter like, okay, Clint's gonna do whatever he's gonna decide to do, if he does recovery, if he has a slip, whatever that is, but I'm more focused on my relationship with the Lord. I'm gonna be more in tune. And I am so grateful for that experience because it radically changed my faith. It radically changed my relationship with the Lord. It radically changed everything about me and who I am. And they weren't like the the words in the Bible were not words anymore. They were literally like bread of life. Like I was more hungry for the word of God than I was for real solid food. It really became this like, Lord, you are literally all I have and all that I need. And like you satisfy alone. And I really understood that. And I'm so, so grateful that I was able to experience that in recovery. I really believe that was the pivotal moment in my recovery journey that really helped me and catapulted me to where I even am today.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

The key to what you said is you took that pain to Jesus. Yeah, you weren't afraid of wrestling with God and really asking that question of like, where were you? Why did you allow blank?

SPEAKER_04 33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

I think Drew, so much of my sexual brokenness was deeply connected to my spiritual brokenness. There was so much that was broken in my heart. I had I had so much confusion around God. And I was saved at seven years old. I was raised in the church, both my parents loved the Lord, but I was so confused, Drew, in my recovery as to why wouldn't God take this away? And why would God allow blank? And why, when I would be open with Christian men growing up that I struggle with pornography or masturbation, why wouldn't they tangibly help me? Why didn't one person disciple me? Why did I, why did I, I mean, literally over the course of my life, from junior high through college, there was probably 10 different times of like the most honest, vulnerable confession, seeking out help to never have anybody except for one person, anybody really like walk with me in that and say, Man, I want to help you. I want to tangibly be with you in this. Most just gave me a book, most questioned my salvation, most would say you need to pray more. Really bad advice was you need to study scripture more, like God's word isn't in you. And so it was always like shame and condemnation and guilt, and I'm not good enough, I'm doing something wrong. And so here I am, like now this is blood into my marriage, and my wife is about to leave with our two kids. And I'm I'm not just angry at everything, I'm angry at the one that I know could have healed me. And I read all these stories of everybody showing up to Jesus and having faith and knowing that he could heal them, and he's like, Yeah, your faith has healed you, child. Go in peace. And for the first time in my life, I was like, God, where were you? And so this whole chapter in our course is like, listen, you have the option of taking that pain to Jesus or not. And if we don't, if we don't actually have that conversation that we need to have with the Lord, we're gonna keep dismissing it. And we're gonna think that God just wants us to show up on church and and sing, you're good, good father, but not actually experiencing him as a father. And so there was a part of my journey where I was like, God, I can't sing these words anymore if I haven't wrestled this out with you. Yeah, I can't just read your word and just use it as a band-aid because it's not working. And I'm not gonna share everything in my journey about that, but the the thing is, Drew, we did realize on our own journey that we're either gonna not go to God with that pain, or we're gonna take that pain right to the foot of the cross. That God's not afraid of our anger. He's a big enough God He can handle, He can handle it. And we found tremendous healing, tremendous transformational truths. Like Charity shared hers, that you know, I never abandoned you, I've never betrayed you. I had to experience some deep-seated truths that rocked my world, that rocked my theology. Because I thought that God being I thought him being good meant the absence of suffering. And I found a whole different experience in that. And so we encourage people, man, it's not you're not gonna get that done in eight weeks, but a lot of the eight-week course we have is really starting that conversation that's gonna lead to long-term healing and long-term health with Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Again, that is really scary to be unfiltered and raw and 100% honest, yeah. Like you both were, and that opened you up to the real God, you know, when you got real.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

We had a group that just actually finished their eight-week course I think last week. I think Drew, this this session was probably the hardest session for the group. And we taught, I mean, our course talks about a lot of stuff slips and relapse game plan, how to navigate triggers, sharing your story, understanding what your spouse is going through. But this session kind of rocked their world. We had numerous couples from and we actually didn't lead this group. This was led by an ambassador, they led it in person, and they reached out to us and said, Clint, this week was the hardest for our group because these couples had been in recovery for a while, but they had never verbally processed the pain that they haven't talked about with the Lord. And they've been holding on to that, and they haven't taken these hurts and these pains to Jesus. And even though it was one of the hardest weeks for this group to process, it became one of the most relatable weeks because they all related to one another. And this this group, they they were just of a different generation than we were, they were a little bit older than us, and so I think it was even harder for them to go, man, how do we do this? They've never had they've never had an example. All these couples were in their 50s and over, and they'd never had an example of like how do you wrestle with God with big emotions? How do you take your feelings to Jesus? And the beauty that they experienced after that week of being able to relate to each other and go, Man, we gotta do this. We have to encourage each other in this. This is gonna not it's not gonna be easy, but we have to do this together and we gotta be here for each other. I just think that's that's transformational in and of itself. Like that would change your whole life. Yeah. If you've never taken those really big questions to God and said, okay, I'm gonna take these to God and find out what he has to say about them.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

And then to have a community of other couples who really get it, who are in it together.

SPEAKER_05 39:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

That's amazing. You talk about post-traumatic growth. I love that word. What is your favorite thing about post-traumatic growth?

SPEAKER_05 39:53

Oh man, I love that word too. And it's not talked a lot about. And I love that we share that in our group. Post-traumatic growth, personally, I just think it means the gospel. What I mean by that is like boom. It's it's that God brings beauty from ashes, he brings pain into purpose, he restores, he does what only he can do. And that your pain is a chapter. It's not the story, you know, it's not the whole book, it's not your identity. If the perspective and if you have people around you that are safe, it can radically mold you and change

Post Traumatic Growth For Marriage

SPEAKER_05 40:33

you to be even better and a more mature follower of Jesus. And so I think it's sanctification. You know, I think it's like pruning. I mean, it's it's really like when the Lord says that He can do more in you and through you than you can imagine, you know, it's like really believing, okay, God, like I'm gonna use this pain to glorify you. One of my favorite stories in the Bible that the Lord revealed to me while in recovery was when the disciples were walking with Jesus and Jesus had seen, or there was a blind man, and the disciples ask him and they go, Hey, why is this man blind? Is it because his fathers have sinned, his mother, we know what what is the reason? And he goes, Neither. It's because his pain is gonna bring glory to my name and it's gonna share the gospel. And that was like, oh man, there doesn't have to be a reason for your suffering, but your suffering can shine light and truth to who God is because he can redeem, he can restore, he can literally bring dead to life for his glory. And so that's what post-traumatic growth is to me. Post-traumatic growth is bringing dead into life, new birth, and allowing God to bring something beautiful out of it, where you become somebody so I really see like flourished, new, and where people go, wow, what's different about you? Wow, why are you guys still married? How did you survive that? Well, because of Jesus, because you know, we went through this and he restored me in parts that I didn't even need, knew needed healing. And now we're stronger than we are before we went through it, you know? So that's what I mean. I get really passionate and fired up about post-traumatic growth.

SPEAKER_04 42:20

Really?

SPEAKER_05 42:23

And I just love it. I believe that it's just like so biblical, and I believe that it's so hopeful too. Like, I who doesn't want to hold on to that?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

We need a new version of post-traumatic growth that describes that for a couple.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Well, you know, it's interesting to say that because we were just, I was just chatting with somebody, and it was saying, you know, a lot of couples don't know where to go, they don't know what they can have, you know, and it's so it's like, well, what are we trying to do here, Clint? Like, are we just trying to like restore the relationship? Because we don't really want to go back to what it was, right? And so what can we have? And I think that couples just think, and I think, you know, if you interviewed couples with our story that have had an amazing experience of recovery, restoration, healing, they're gonna tell you that what they have now is probably richer than couples that haven't gone through betrayal.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

But I think a lot of couples in the beginning stages of recovery, when they find out or they discover betrayal or they've admitted it, they just think, well, there it goes. Like we can't really have a great marriage because great

Refusing Mediocre After Betrayal

SPEAKER_03 43:29

marriages don't have betrayal in their story. They omit this. Like, this is not a part of their ingredients in a great relationship. And so they just kind of think that a great relationship is unattainable. Oh, Drew, I don't think there's I don't I don't I mean, I think it just breaks our father's heart, our heavenly father's heart because I'll never forget almost believing that I was in recovery for a couple years and I had experienced more freedom individually than ever before. I think I was at my my year sober mark. I was so excited, and I knew that like my Marriage was missing though. Like I knew that I was having healing. I had gone 12 months. That was incredible for someone like me who struggled daily with this struggle with sexual brokenness. And I was like, wow, okay, but my marriage still needs help. And I'll never forget, I was a part of a group that had a lot of men in recovery and a lot of men who had a lot of years of sobriety. And so I started going up to them one-on-one and being like, hey, what have you done for your marriage? I really want to work on that. And the first guy goes, Well, actually, we got divorced years ago. I just, I just think I gotta still be in recovery. So, like, you know, but I can't give you much hope. I was like, Oh, okay, that's a bummer. And then I go to the next guy. I was like, hey, like, what have you done though for your marriage? Like, you know, I want to start working on that. And he's like, Oh, my wife and I sleep at separate rooms, and like I'm just happy I'm not divorced like that guy. And I was like, Oh, oh, that sucks. You know, like, okay, well, let me go to the next day. And the this true, it never changed. I mean, one after another, it was like, oh, I'm just happy that, you know, we have we have sex once every two to three months, and I think, you know, I'm really happy that's the case. But we're not like connected, or we've never seen eye to eye in recovery. Or, you know, she's just happy I'm not acting out, but she doesn't really want to talk to me. Or she's still really hurt, or, you know, I'm just I don't get her. She has a lot of problems and she needs to be here coming to this group too. Or whatever the it was like there was so much blame and shifting and and so much just calling out the other person, and and there was just a lack of understanding, and there wasn't healing. And I almost thought, Drew, like, oh, okay, that's gonna be me too. Like, I should just be happy that we're not divorced, I should just settle for mediocre because that's all marriages can really have after betrayal, right? It's just mediocrity. And it wasn't until we started meeting other couples who had stories that we really yearned for, and we're like, oh no, wait. Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

We could be restored to more.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

That's it. That's it, too.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

And there was this moment of like God showing us, like, I want to bring back the years the locusts have taken and then add more to it. And the things that you suffered through, I'm gonna, I'm gonna replenish that and add more to it. And I was like, wait, God, so what could our marriage be? And it was like, it can be way more than you ever thought possible because your foundation in the beginning was broken. So let me build a great foundation and let's let's scrap what was and let's do something new, and let's do something that can last forever, at least on this in this age, you know, this side of heaven. And that's what we were like, okay, God, we're gonna run with that, and we're gonna just continue to have our little light. And whoever needs to be lit, we're just gonna say, hey, here's what God can do. And God can do more than we thought, than we asked for, than we can ever imagine. And we are living proof of that. We're excited to shout that from the rooftops that we have a marriage today that we hope for. It's not perfect by any means, but I'll tell you, we never thought we'd be this connected. We never thought we'd have date nights this much fun. We never thought we'd laugh this much together, this we pray this much together. I never thought we'd be this connected spiritually, physically, intellectually, with our kids, having purpose and vision. It's like, wow, this is awesome. And we just want marriages to know, like, man, this doesn't have to be mediocre after this is a part of your story. It can it can be more beautiful than you even think.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Amen. There could be post-traumatic growth, and you can be restored to way more than before.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

We should change that. We should be restored to way more. I think I like that.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

Change it, change the logo.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Thanks, Drew. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Thank you so much for being with us. If y'all want to connect with Clinton and Charity, you can go to their website, restortomore.com. You can listen to their podcast, you can get their awesome new resource, the bridge back to us.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

And we'll see what is in store next. You're very kind, Drew, for just having us on. Thank you so much. We love what is happening at Husm Material. We keep hearing, I mean, all these questions you ask us, we could ask you them right back. And I know that there's just testimony after testimony of people that have been impacted by what God's called you to. And it's great to it's great to run in this field with you, my man. Thank you so much for encouraging us always. You're such an encouragement to us, seriously. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Thanks, y'all. Likewise. And as I say at the end of every episode,

Resources And Final Blessing

SPEAKER_01 48:35

always remember you are God's beloved son, and you he is well pleased.