Welcome And Safety Framework

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Welcome to the Husband Materials podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, kill your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go. This episode is special. It was recorded at the recent HMA in a day online workshop with two certified husband material coaches, Jordan Castile and Jason Mellard. Jordan Castile is a board certified Christian counselor and the founder of Castile Coaching. He leads Inner Child Thursdays in HMA. Jason Mellard is a certified high performance coach and the founder of Own Your Identity. Jason leads Vision Sunday in HMA. In what you're about to witness, Jordan and Jason demonstrate how to process a sexual fantasy through inner child work. At the start, Jason shares his Secret Screenplay, an assignment in the HMA course, which involves writing out the story of a sexual fantasy in detail while staying as safe as possible to reduce the risk of relapse. We do not recommend doing this on your own. We do not recommend doing this without guidance and support. The goal is not to dwell on the fantasy itself, but to learn from it and to let it lead us where we need to go into deeper healing. Rest assured that Jason does not share any graphic sexual details. He only shares an overview of his fantasy and how it made him feel. However, what he shares still may be triggering for some listeners. So here is your trigger warning. If you start to feel uncomfortable or unsafe while listening, please skip to the next section of the demo where Jordan responds to Jason and they start inner child work, eventually inviting Jesus in to complete this experience. It's amazingly beautiful. And this is what we do every week in HMA. It's a glimpse into the deeper work of what it takes to truly outgrow porn. Enjoy the episode.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Jason. How about essay preference? That's a great idea. Okay. Well, yeah, Jesus. I thank you for Jason. And thank you for yeah, just his willingness to share this fantasy and to do inner child work. And yeah, I pray you would lead us. You would bless um this town. And yeah, you would really just in Jason's process, you would speak to him today. And help him to connect with little Jason. And yeah, just experience uh a moment of healing and care

Prayer And Setting The Space

SPEAKER_04 3:48

and love. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Okay, Jason. Well, yeah, why don't you you start off by sharing your fantasy screenplay?

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Okay. Well, it starts in the locker room shower. And you know, as I go into this shower area, this older man notices me. And he just wants to hang out and talk for a bit. And he just really appreciates all of me. He would like to give me a gift. He wants to give me an experience at any cost that would make me feel most alive and allow me to just be really happy. And he doesn't have any expectations, no strings tied to it.

Jason Shares A Fantasy Overview

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Nothing that he has to get himself. He he wants this for me. He's seen something in me, didn't even know me, but he just admired me and and wanted to be a benefactor to something great. And in that in that fantasy, the idea came to mind of being in like this luxury hotel, like the top floor way up high with windows all around. He's paying for this whole experience I'm gonna have, but he's not even a part of it. Like I said, he was just saying, Man, I like you, I see something in you, I want to give you, you know, this experience. And I'm up there, I'm by myself for a while. It's just like this huge suite, you know, penthouse. Everything is is done, it's all taken care of. There's there's food around, just nice drinks, and you know, have everything I need. You know, servants coming in asking me, you know, Jason, what can I get for you? Is everything comfortable? Is the lighting just right? You know, whatever it is, like there's huge bathroom, there's a you know, little little living room area up there, and it's just like I'm kind of the king of the world. And then, you know, what I asked for are three guys to come into the room, like really attractive men that I would get to select one of them to be with. And you know, wouldn't have to be doing anything necessarily intense with them, but it was the idea of having control of my surroundings, of being in a place where I didn't have to worry about anything. And these guys come in, they're wearing speedoes, all very attractive, just nuanced differences about them. And I select one of them and send the other two away. And it's this huge, you know, king plus size bed that's on there, it's like silk sheets, and this really huge screen TV that's there. And I'm just like, hey, you know, come here in the bed, let's watch TV and hang out together. And it's just that idea of I get to choose like the perfect guy, I get to be the one calling the shots, and he's just there to make me happy, and he's really enjoying it too, and it's all paid for by this other man, you know, and just kind of see where it goes. And it does end up, you know, going pretty far. And and he says something in me, you know, through the sexual experiences that we have, that uh he just really likes, he really wants like all of me, and the masculinity that kind of oozing out is just kind of what he's been looking for. Maybe he didn't expect that when he he came in, but but he's uh really enjoying the experience. And the part where it gets really weird is if that's not weird enough, it's like this 360 view around the top floor of of this hotel. There's windows all around. And somehow in my fantasy, you know, I I wanted people to be able to watch me, watch me be doing this, watch me be in control, you know, being admired and seen. The only way I could figure out how to make that work was to have a bunch of other guys in little hovercrafts as I was thinking through this and writing it out. So they're all there floating around outside, looking to get a glimpse through these big windows at me and whatever I'm gonna choose to do in this amazing place withever I choose to get to do it with. I get the ability to close the the curtains if I don't want them to see inside. So when I do that, I just take all these big curtains and uh I close it up. It's it's powered, I just press a button. And they're disappointed, you know, and then they all you know go away to wherever they came from. And it's just an amazing, amazing day. And that would be probably my ultimate sexual fantasy.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Okay. Well, thanks for sharing all of that, Jason. It's uh yeah, very vulnerable and raw story to share. Yeah, just uh a few things that I I feel like I'm I'm I'm hearing there's well, there's connection. There is you know, being seen and and noticed by men. And I I think you know, just as you're describing the the story itself and the the connection that you have with this this man, there is yeah, there's power. You have all of the power

Naming The Longings Beneath It

SPEAKER_04 9:54

and and at the same time there's this you know affection, tenderness, and yeah, it just it seems like you're you're you're being affirmed through the process by the way he responds to your masculinity. Yeah. Yeah. What's what's coming up for you right now?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Yeah, feeling a little bit emotional. I think most of tears, you know, are starting to come to my eyes. Yeah. I think through you know, that however old kind of that person is that's actually wanting that experience, you know, why he wanted it and how he felt, and the idea of a feeling out of control so much of my life, feeling like I was just on these waves of the ocean and in a little rowboat, not having much say about what's everything was just so much bigger than me. Everybody was telling me who I was and what I was allowed to think and feel and do, and I was always, you know, too much or not enough. And you know, I was overpowered by my father and the idea to say, you know, I get to choose, and there's nothing is right or wrong. There's nothing off limits. I don't have to be ashamed. I get to to experience this thing.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Okay. Well, yeah, just as you're sitting here with this emotion, don't you close your eyes and just take a few deep breaths to really center into your body here.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Breathe into your nose and out through your mouth. Really focusing on that emotion. Where do you feel it in your body?

SPEAKER_03 12:18

It's funny, I feel it like in my eyes. Um

Tracking Emotion In The Body

SPEAKER_03 12:23

behind my eyes and and in my chest too. It's like this heaviness that's uh taking some time to just uh relax my shoulders. I have to be intentional about that. Yeah, sure. Maybe in my throat, my throat even just that connection between my chest and my face.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Yeah, as you you feel that in your face, your eyes, your throat, you know, focus in on that and with that emotion, travel back to Challenge and where little Jason is.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Yeah, I remember being in bed with my dad, and and he would want me just to have my underwear on, and he would just have his underwear on. And I didn't like it. And I was somehow supposed to be giving something to him that wasn't mine to give, or no, he wasn't supposed to be getting that from me, whatever it was that he needed. And I just felt like powerless. I remember one day telling him, Dad, I don't I don't like it when you do this, I don't like it when they touch me like that. And you know, we were standing up. This was somehow middle

A Childhood Moment With Dad

SPEAKER_03 14:31

of the day, and I'm not sure how it came up. And I'm looking up at him, and he just he just seemed like this huge, huge person. Maybe I was eight, nine years old, and I just felt even smaller than I was, and it was like, you know, dad, I don't like this. And it took so much courage to say that. I didn't feel like I had a voice, you know, so much of the time, and to be able to say that it took a lot, took a lot out of me. And uh and I remember him saying, Well, Jason, if you don't want me to touch you, um it's fine. You don't have to touch at all. No hugs, nothing. I'm looking at him like, well, that's what I want, you know. I want a hug. What's wrong with me? I mean, did I do something wrong? You know, am I the bad guy? So I felt like it was just all on me. And you know, I wanted somebody to say, Hey, gosh, I hear you, I see you, you're hurting, I'm sorry. I would have loved if if Christ actually somehow could have come in there in that moment and and put his armors around me and just taken me by the shoulders and turned my face to him to say, I got you, you know, I'll give you a hug. Um I wanted to be noticed, I wanted to be validated, wanted it to be okay to to speak up, to say, I don't have a right to my own person. Yeah, I wanted that connection, especially from my dad.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Wow, so it it sounds like as you're describing this with your dad, he he's he's taking all the power away from you as you as you have the courage to express like, hey, I don't like this.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

And he responds with no touch at all. So hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:49

What what comes up for you as you feel that?

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Uh some deep sadness, deep loss, just uh like an an ache, anger as well. Yeah. I mean, I can I can look back now in anger, but I mean back then I had no clue how to really experience anger. It was so buried down, just felt felt empty, confused and scared and uh anxious.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

I just felt trapped. I didn't know how to turn around and just walk the other way. Then he was gonna reject me even more. Um, I couldn't say anything else about how that hurt me because apparently, if I shared anything that hurt me, I was just gonna get rejected even more. So I was standing there like paralyzed.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah, wow. Well well, Jason just as yeah, you're sitting with all of this, you know, and little Jason yeah just experiencing a lot of hurt and a lot of anger, sadness. Why don't you imagine yourself as present-day Jason walking into the room?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

This makes me smile. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yeah, I just I see him there standing up looking at his dad, like frozen. And my heart goes goes out for him. Yeah, and uh, you know, I think I just walk over to him and I just tap him on the shoulder. I guess as I'm thinking about this, it's just like every time is just stopping, it's just standing still and don't have to worry about dad anymore because

Present-Day Jason Protects Little Jason

SPEAKER_03 18:57

he's just standing there frozen, yeah, kind of helpless, and and I get to say, hey buddy, I'm here for you. And I got all the time in the world. I came all this away, not just for you, and I know what you're going through. I know what it's like, and I'm always gonna be here for you. Let's let's just talk, okay? Yeah, I think that's what I would want to do.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Yeah. So how is he responding to when uh I think a little shocked, a little shell shocked.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

He's like, Who are you? Can I trust you? Yeah, you're coming here so so big. Are you safe? I think I have to somehow just tell him, yeah. You don't have to trust me right now. It's okay. You don't have to feel safe with me. Yeah. We can just sit here together together for a bit.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Yeah. And tell them who you are.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Like 40 years later, been through a lot. Yeah. Been through a lot and uh found a lot of strength. I never knew I would find. I found my voice in so many ways. And it's impossible for me now to live without the belief that God is like right with me. Um, that Christ does see me all the time, that I do matter, that it's worth being around. People are are better off for it somehow, and that uh I can trust my gut when something feels right or feels wrong, and God's there for me to bounce ideas off of and just say, what's going on here? That I'm not alone. I know right now you're feeling really alone, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah, you don't know what to trust. Yeah. Yeah. I was a little jazzed in responding.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Yeah. I think he's softening a bit. Yeah. I think he is like putting his hand on on my arm just to see if I'm real and see how I'm gonna react to it. He's looking up in my eyes and just trying to study them to see if uh see if what I'm saying is true. Yeah. He's looking back at his dad. Like, man, there's there's something better than what you're able to give me, dad.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Can I trust this guy? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

And I think he just wants to open up the floodgates of all the things that he's never felt allowed to say. All the feelings that he's had inside that he felt wrong to feel. Um I think once he gets started, he's not gonna stop until the wee hours of the night. I don't know. There's just so much inside.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

I think my older self just listens and smiles and says, What do you mean? Yeah, what does little face in me?

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Yeah. Just to get it all out. To get it all out and To get a big hug when he says he's comfortable for with that and uh just uh put his head on on my chest and just to uh just to be safe and then to say, yeah, and there's this other thing I have forgot to say, and I remember this. And and I was afraid to tell you this specific thing earlier, but now I I feel like I can, so I want to tell you that too.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah. There's so much I thought I just had to bury down, not if anybody knew. They would just think I was weird, or they think my family was a mess, and because of that, that that must be a mess. And you know, somehow if they got too close to me, they would get infected with whatever it was that was wrong with us. Um the more I share, the more, you know. Big Jason just wants to love even more. It's like the depth of love just keeps growing. Yeah. The depth of knowing, the depth of love, the wanting to hear even more. I think it's like we go for a walk, you're not sitting in my bedroom anymore, and and then Jason just starts telling him more stories about his life, the things that we're gonna experience, the things that God's gonna do, and the people we're gonna get to meet, the people are gonna hear this story in real life and say, Yeah, Jason, I love you. The look of uh his mentor Bill, he's gonna have at some point that's uh you know, not in a hurry for anything, just loves it all. Tell him about all those experiences, you know, can tell him about the impact that he's gonna have one day and other people somehow allow good to come from this.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

I think during that little Jason said all kinds of images come to mind, images of the future that I'm talking about, more experiences that are hard coming up, things that he thought maybe that didn't happen, but he's realizing that it really did. Um he's thinking of the things that he has dreams of and hopes for and interests in that that maybe could be possible, that maybe aren't bad. You know, maybe how he's wired is is not wrong. Um maybe he's maybe he's a lot cooler than he thought he was.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

You know, Jason as as you're like yeah, the the back and forth is really incredible. You're you're really connecting with the little boy inside of you to attune to him, to connect with him. You know, this is a part where I I would like to invite Jesus to be with the two of you and for him to attune to both of you. That that belief of something is wrong with my family.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

And just really holding that up to him.

Inviting Jesus Into The Memory

SPEAKER_02 27:04

So yeah, Jesus, right now.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Is there anything you would want Jason to know? Would be your heart for him.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

And you're in my family now. You're adopted into my family, and and I tell you there's there's nothing wrong with it. And I've chosen you. That's bigger than you can imagine, better than any father, any even amazing mentor that you might have here on earth. I want you to know that uh the brokenness of your family does not mean anything about you. It doesn't mean anything about what I put it in you and what I'm excited about for your future. It doesn't get to squash that, it doesn't get to mute it. You don't have to edit yourself. I've put all kinds of different ingredients together when I created you and I smiled when I did it. And I want to hold your hand and kind of look to the future and be excited along with you for what's possible. I want you to lean into your interests, lean into the talents that you'll find that you have. Feels more comfortable when you're under his, but that doesn't mean that what he's saying is true or that it's gonna be this way forever. We just kind of sit, you know, the my house and everything just fades away, and we're in the middle of this field that is full of this beautiful grass and flowers with trees around and the sun's shining. And he's telling me, Jason, you can come here as often as you need to. You can come here whenever you like. I'm always gonna be here. Even when you're in your room and you feel like you can't say that you don't like something, you can be here in this open space, because that's where your true self is. That's where I am I'm there with you in that room, but I want you to to picture being with me in this space that's full of possibility I created for you to flourish. There's no limits here. Because that's what's actually true. There's no limits, Jason.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Yeah. How does that feel, Jason?

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Yeah, I feel good. I think that you know, knowing it's not just a person, but it's a place as well. Like there's room for me. There's room for me to run around and a place to call my own, and not a place to do bad things that aren't gonna be helpful for me to take control in a way that I can only imagine is what I somehow want to be in control, but letting go control to a person that that's perfect, you know, that made me and that has all kinds of ideas for me. It's not about gaining control, it's about losing it to the one who calls me his.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:34

Man. Well, Jason, that was a gift for me to just walk you through that and yeah, just seeing you attuned to little Jason and then inviting Jesus in, and yeah, just the the way you interacted with them was just beautiful to see.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah, ex Jordan's has been really good for me. Yeah, good. Really good for me today. I wrote that screenplay a long time ago, but uh didn't quite play it out like we have here together today. Yeah, it's really nice.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

I like that image of the field that came to mind. I just hadn't put words to it like that before. Like I can always come there and it's not about having control, but losing it to him and he's wrapping his his cloak around me. Like that's really powerful for me today.

SPEAKER_04 32:32

Good. Well, Jason is, you know, you kind of closed this out. Yeah, I just want you to go back to little Jason and you know, tell him, you know, however you would like to just say, hey, I'm I love you. It was good spending time with you. And I'm gonna I'm gonna come back.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah, I'll do that out loud. I'll see how say little Jason, I think you're really cool. I think all of all your gifts are pretty cool. And I'm gonna protect you not here waiting for you anytime that you need,

Closing Words And How To Join

SPEAKER_03 33:23

and you're you're not alone. And yeah, just remember that I love you and and God loves you. We've got your back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

That was so cool. Yeah. Thanks, Jordan. Yeah. Uh thank you, man.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

That was that was man.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I'm looking out here at my window in the backyard and a picture in Jesus out there. Yes. That was really nice.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Yeah. You know, just one thing, I I it really feels like there's so many connections that took place here from your fantasy to you know the that moment in time with your dad. Just even right now of picturing Jesus outside looking through the window at you when in your fantasy you had people looking at you.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

But he's not on hovercraft. Yeah, he's on hovercraft. Oh man. Yeah, I'm not gonna forget this. This is so nice.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

You were so courageously vulnerable.

unknown 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Feels good. Feels really good. Feel a lot lighter. I don't think I realized how much I needed this today. This is just a gift. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

And it wasn't just a gift to you, it was a gift through you and Jordan to all of us. Thank you so much for sticking with us to the end. If you would like more of this, join HMA at joinhma.com so that you can come to Inner Child Thursday with Jordan Castile, Fantasy Friday with me, Drew Boa, or Vision Sunday with Jason Millard. And always remember, you are God's beloved son. You