Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow poor. Why? So you can change your brain, kill your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Hey man, thank you so much for listening to my interview with Jenna Remersma. She is the best-selling author of Altogether You, Finding Personal and Spiritual Transformation with Internal Family Systems Therapy, and a new book called Move Toward, which is incredible. You are going to learn a simple, powerful, awe-inspiring tool that can help you outgrow porn and even more than that to become emotionally, sexually, spiritually healthy. And I can't recommend it enough. Jenna has a unique background as someone who has experienced intimate sexual betrayal and someone who has experienced incredible healing. She's a licensed professional, counselor, certified sex addiction therapist, supervisor, a highly trained IFS therapist. Jenna is one of the most Christ-like people I have ever met. Spending time with her is like spending time with Jesus. So I'm excited for you to listen to this. Enjoy the episode. I am very excited to welcome one of my favorite guests of all time, Jenna Remersma, back to the show. Great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Great to see you, Drew. It's always so fun to be together with you. Thanks for inviting me back.

Why Moving Toward Works

SPEAKER_02 1:36

For everyone who doesn't know, Jenna was one of the professors in the PSAP pastoral sex addiction professional program that I did just when I was starting out. And it really changed my life. And then doing consultation with Jenna and reading her books have been awesome. And now she's got a new book coming out called Move Toward, a simplified IFS Therapy Tool to welcome all parts of you. Jenna, you have been refining this approach for years. What is the story behind Move Toward?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

It's a great question, Drew. And we were even just talking as we started out how many years we've known each other when we first met. Your oldest was one and is now eight. So it's been just a wonderful journey and watching all that you have done in the world and your wonderful new book and the way that you have encouraged countless numbers of people to move toward their own parts that are stuck feeling or doing things that are painful and difficult. And so we really share a similar heartbeat in that. And the idea behind it is really that all parts of us are well-intentioned and have positive qualities. And because of trauma or in Christendom, what we would call sin, they become burdened and it covers over their positive qualities. And it turns out that the most effective way to help them transform is not through fighting against them, but through moving toward them with curiosity and compassion and building relationship with these parts of ourselves, learning how they're attempting to help us in usually some not very helpful ways, and then really offering a different approach, one that is led by the spirit, by the God image inside of us. And it turns out that that is remarkably transformational and effective. And that's the spirit of the internal family systems model that I'm trained in. But I noticed that after years and years of teaching many people to use IFS, what I found was that the model itself is incredibly effective and rather complicated. As soon as you start to unpack it, it gets complicated very quickly. And there was a need for a simplified tool that anyone could use. And so that's what the heart of Move Toward is. It is just a very simple three-step approach to allow anyone to begin to move toward a part of themselves that they would like to offer relief to with curiosity and compassion.

Parts In Sexual Recovery

SPEAKER_02 4:33

That has absolutely changed my life. And it was a huge inspiration for the husband material approach and the book Outgrow Porn. What are some examples of different parts that someone in sexual recovery might need to move toward?

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Many different parts are coming to the table when an individual comes in to the recovery process. Usually there is one part that really wants the person to get sober. Another part of them may be very critical of the behavior they've been engaged in. Another part of them may be in total denial, really not wanting to look at the severity or the extent of what's been happening. Perhaps another part of them may want to blame maybe their partner or their job or their stress or something outside of themselves. And usually kind of a linchpin in the whole equation that doesn't get invited to the table in many therapy settings is the part of the person that we're hoping to help change, which is the part of themselves that has learned how to try to provide either nurture, comfort, connection, novelty, excitement, trying to help provide that by engaging in some type of compulsive sexual behavior. And that part of the individual, the very one that we want to help transform, is usually not invited to the table. And what I find is if we don't invite that part of us, of our clients, of ourselves to the table, the part that's engaged in the behavior we're trying to change, it will sabotage all the other intentions that we may have because that part's history, its positive intention, and its desires for us are not being taken into account. And so many people find it very challenging, but very transformational and rewarding to get to know, to move toward the part of themselves that's actually the part engaged in the compulsive behavior.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

That sounds so counterintuitive. Like come closer to the part of me that wants to sexually fantasize or masturbate or objectify people. I mean, it feels wrong for some of us to even think about that.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

This is such an important point because moving toward this part of ourselves, whatever part that might be, with curiosity and compassion does not mean that we are saying that the behavior that it's engaged in is good or right, or that we don't have responsibility for that behavior. What it means is that moving toward the hard stuff, just like Jesus did in scripture, is the most effective way to help it transform. Jesus did this and exemplified this in so many ways. Jesus moved toward the lepers. He moved toward the woman caught in adultery. He moved toward the storm, he moved toward the cross. And it was through relationship, not through control, that Jesus brought the message of transformation. And it turns out that that is exactly what IFS, Internal Family Systems, helps us to do with all parts of ourselves. And that's what Move Toward helps us to do in an accessible way. We're not saying that the fantasy, the love, you know, the objectification or the compulsive sexual behavior is good, that someone's not responsible for their behavior, but what we're saying is that behavior is being held by a part of you that's trying to help you in some way. And it made sense at one point in time. When that part of you began to try to help you in that way, it worked. It worked for a period of time. And it's no longer working, it's no longer adaptive. And the most effective way to help that to change is to bring relationship to it, not control.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Amen. That's a huge difference between dwelling on porn, for example, or dwelling on what's happening with the part of me that has the urge to go there. Yes. And if y'all want to learn how to do that from Jenna, please buy the book, move toward. You can find it in the show notes. But at an introductory level, what are those steps of moving toward a part?

Notice Know Need Explained

SPEAKER_00 9:22

So there's three basic steps, and they're really easy to remember. They're just one word each, and they are notice, know, and need. And what we're doing with those three steps, it seems simple, but it is can be incredibly challenging and transformational. First, we start with noticing when the part of ourselves that wants to engage in the behavior is activated. And so if we start to notice, oh, I'm having lustful thoughts, I'm beginning to objectify, I'm starting down my addiction cycle, I can see I'm starting to ruminate and these types of things. Rather than fighting against that, what we can do is pause, take a breath, take a moment, notice that that part of us has taken us over. It's not all of who we are. So sometimes it's helpful in this step just to even say, ah, I'm noticing that the part of me that's trying to help me by looking at porn or engaging in fantasy has taken me over. It's here. Let me just offer that part a little bit of kindness. What it's doing is not helpful, but let me see if it can just be here with me. And it can even be helpful to extend our hand in front of our body as if to offer a sort of a place to hold the energy of that part. And we begin to notice it with a little bit of curiosity, a little bit of compassion as separate from who we are. And a couple of important things happen when we do that. First of all, it begins to help that part, what we call an IFS, unblend or separate its energy from ourselves. And it helps us to begin to access the image of God that is inside of us that got buried kind of behind that part when it took us over. And it's that energy that helps this part to transform. And we begin to access that curious, connected, compassionate, courageous sense inside of us that's always there. And it also helps that part's urges and desires and instincts not to take us over and drive our bus, so to speak. So we're doing this sort of gentle unblending by noticing the part of us that's here and noticing it with a little bit of curiosity and a little bit of compassion. Now, that being said, it's simple but not easy. And that step has a number of different ways that it can present challenges. And so in the book, I have included a troubleshooting guide of the most common challenges and what to do when that happens. So, for example, if a client is trying to notice the part of themself that has gotten activated that wants to look at pornography, for example, a very common situation is they invite that part to kind of sit in their hands, so to speak, and the part that hates the part that's looking at pornography shows up. And so what we're noticing when we're being aware of the pornography-seeking energy is hatred or a desire to make it stop. So that would be a typical place where we've got another part of us that has taken us over now. And so there's just different complexities that can come up in noticing parts of ourselves, especially difficult parts of ourselves, parts that are engaged in behaviors that are making our lives challenging or hurting people that we love. And so this noticing step is very simple, again, but not at all easy. But that first step is just notice this part. Well, this part of me is here. Let me get curious about it. Then step number two, when we've got a little curiosity and maybe even compassion that we are holding toward this part of us, we simply ask that part of ourselves, what do you want me to know about you? And I know that can sound a little weird. I'm not talking about talking to ourselves or hearing voices or anything weird, but literally just getting in relationship with this part of ourselves. What do you want me to know about you? And what we're gonna notice is that those parts of us communicate through images or memories that come to mind or a sense of something. It's really kind of natural, very organic, but we'll start to find out what triggered this part to get activated in this moment. Maybe how long it's had to try to help us in this way by doing this job, by looking at pornography. Maybe we might learn what it's afraid would happen if it didn't take us over and make us want to engage in that behavior. So we're gonna really learn this is a getting to know you step, just like we would with a new friend. We're learning anything that this part of us wants us to know about its story, about how long it's been stuck in this job, how it's trying to help, what it's afraid would happen if it didn't take us over and do that. And then finally, the third step is just a really an equipping step. It's a relationship-building step from the God image inside of us to the part we ask, what do you need from me right now to feel a little less activated, a little more comforted? And notice we're not asking this part of ourselves, what do you need from my partner? Or what do you need from the world or my boss or the next door neighbor? We're asking, what do you need from me? Like the image of God inside of me to help you to feel a little more comforted, a little less activated, so that the image of God can be what's driving the bus, so to speak. And the part that is wanting to look at pornography doesn't have to take over. And what we learn in response to that question is the actual need that that part has, which is almost never the behavior it's engaged in. So the sense that we will get when we ask that question, what do you need from me to feel a little more comforted? It's not going to be, I need you to go look at pornography. It's gonna be, I need some comfort. I need you to reduce the stress in your life. So I don't have to try to take over and get some relief. I need you to speak your truth in a gracious and affirming but a clear and direct way to your partner who has said or done this harmful thing. I need you to set boundaries. I need you to ask for help. We're gonna get a sense of the true need that that part has, which allows us to meet that need more effectively. Pornography is not the need. Pornography is the burden that that part has gotten stuck with. And so it's a much more effective way to meet the needs of our parts, help them to build trust that the image of God actually can lead us in a more effective way. And then they have less instinct, less impulse to get reactive and take us over.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah, this is exactly what has given me lasting freedom. And so much deeper healing. And it's so much bigger than just porn. I mean, this is really for all of our lives.

unknown 17:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

And I find that these steps really work well in relationships with other people too.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

They do. They do. In fact, funny you should mention that. The whole second part of the book, once we've learned how to notice, know, and need with our own parts, and we have a little more access to the image of God inside of us, then the second half of the book talks about how we can use those same three steps to interact much more effectively when relationships have conflict or in relationships where there's really a lack of safety or toxicity. So the application of this principle is really much bigger than one part of ourselves. It's for all parts of us and then for all relationships outside of us, relationships with our partners, with our family members, with our neighbors, with our boss, with our mother-in-law. It can be extremely helpful for all of those contexts.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

I find it especially helpful with my kids. And when you talk about what are the true needs, I'm thinking of attachment needs to be seen, to be safe, to be supported and celebrated, to be cherished and treasured. There's a degree to which we can find that in God and in other people, yet there's also a part of that that only we can do. This question, what do you need from me? feels like it's primarily saying maybe I can actually meet some of these needs myself.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yes, which is very empowering. And as you say, it's really multifaceted. The ability for us to really meet those needs in our adult selves through the image of God that resides at our core is very empowering, particularly if we happen to find ourselves in relationships or contexts which aren't in the moment able to meet those needs for us. Certainly, God is always going to be present to meet those needs. And yet we have the sexual drive, we have the relational needs inside of us for the very reason that we are designed to be in relationship. We do have these other needs that present themselves. And so we can meet some of those inside of ourselves. And that allows us to become more able to approach other relationships to get those needs met in healthy and affirming and life-giving ways outside of us. So it's a double bonus. We have empowerment internally and honestly, spiritual connection and growth internally, which then overflows into enhanced connection externally. And it's it's a really beautiful positive cycle that begins.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

When we talk about healing and transformation, especially in the context of pornography or sexual brokenness, I'm aware that you have not only been teaching about this, but you have lived this story. Could you say more about what that has looked like in your life?

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Absolutely. So I just celebrated 30 years of marriage and some of those have been very off-road miles, let me tell you. And about 10 years into our marriage, learned of my husband's pornography use and went through the experience of my own betrayal trauma, which is really what led me to my own healing journey and led me to eventually go back to school, get my counseling degree, and become a CSAT and a CSAT supervisor and faculty with the ITAP that trains other people to become CSATs, which is where you and I met. And so this has been a long-term transformational journey in my own life. And I can definitively, without hesitation, say that our marriage has been saved and our lives have been totally transformed as a result of the principles that we're talking about today. I cannot really overstate it. And in fact, uh, my husband feels so strongly about it, and his transformation has been so dramatic over the last several decades. He's actually writing a memoir about it, how these practices have enabled him to really experience not only long term sobriety, but really transformation. Transformation. There's a difference between spending the rest of our lives fighting against parts of ourselves that are engaged in behaviors that we don't like versus transforming those parts so they no longer have the trigger to take us over and engage in those behaviors. They are transformed into what it is that they were designed to be, which is fundamentally positive and beautiful.

Self And Self-Like Parts

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Absolutely. One of the concepts you have introduced to me is the idea of self-like parts, which show up all over the place. Could you say more about that?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Absolutely. So in in internal family systems, the word self with a capital S is used to refer to this essence inside all of us that is fundamentally unbroken and positive and designed to lead our inner system. In Christian circles, the word self has kind of a bad rap. We don't really love that word. We usually think of it as sort of an equivalent of meaning sinful. And so I like to offer the translation for people of the word self in IFS really means the image of God inside of us. Every faith tradition has a word for this. In Christianity, it's Imago Dei or Image of God. It doesn't really matter what we call it. We could call it concentrated awesomeness, regardless of what it is. It's there inside of every single one of us, no matter how much trauma we have endured, and no matter how much trauma we have created in the world. And that's really important because a lot of times we come into a healing journey thinking what has happened to me or what I have done out of my pain and woundedness is so bad that there cannot be anything good inside of me. And this sort of revolutionary concept is that actually the image of God is inside of you. And by very nature of the fact that it is the image of the divine, it cannot be broken. And it is always there. It gets obscured sometimes, kind of like clouds covering the sun, when parts of us get triggered and take us over, but it's always there. And I know that I know that I know that that is true for decades doing this work, both in my own inner world and with many thousands of clients and practitioners. This is a truth that is deep inside of all of us. And if that feels concerning or uncertain in any way, I would encourage people to check out my first book, Altogether You, which goes into a lot of details around the integration of IFS with Christianity. So never worry, we've got a resource there if you're kind of struggling to make sense of that. But what we find in this journey is that that essence, that God image inside of us is so good. It is such a wonderful thing and it's so powerful to transform us when we have access to it, that certain parts of us who are very, very resourceful, figure that out and kind of take on a burden of trying to act like self or trying to act like the image of God. And so we call these self-like parts. When they're regarding our spiritual journey, I tend to call them spiritualizer parts. So they're parts that say the God language, pray the God prayers, do the God activities, check the box, but they're really exhausted. They're trying so, so hard to do it right and not mess up and not displease God or displease God's people. But it feels very draining and exhausting and emptying. And that's one of the ways that we can really differentiate between what IFS would call self-like parts, or we would call maybe spiritualizer parts when it pertains to our spiritual journey. And there's a real difference between that and kind of the real deal, which when we have connection to that real deal inside of us, we call it a mountaintop experience. In athletics or in art, it's referred to sometimes as flow, where it's this experience of almost being timeless and where we are feeling completely seen and known and safe and held and loved, and in the path and the overflow of exactly who we are and who we were designed to be. And it's a profound experience. It is not a common experience. And that is the experience of self with a capital S of the God image. When we have connection to that, it is transcendent, it is timeless, it is transformational. And there's a huge difference between a self-like part and self with a capital S. One of those differences is that self-like parts are trying to figure stuff out. They're trying to get us to do it right, whatever it is. They have an agenda. There's kind of a force or a push energy to them. They want to fix or rescue or figure it out. And it's very well intentioned, but it tends to create reactivity in the parts that they're trying to help or fix or figure out. When those difficult parts of us come into contact with the God image, it's a very different experience. They kind of can exhale because they don't feel fought against. It is very much like with Gideon in the wine press, and the divine appears to Gideon, who is nothing like a mighty warrior in that moment, trembling, hiding, freaked out about the enemy. And the divine says, greetings, mighty warrior. And that's exactly how it is when the divine sees us in our parts of us that are stuck in these really painful ways of being, painful feelings, painful behaviors. And there is a sense of greetings, greetings, mighty warrior. I see that you are not this behavior that you are trapped underneath. I see who you truly are. There's nothing broken or wrong about you. You've gotten stuck underneath a burden, and I'm here to help lift that so you can be freed up to be who you truly are. It's very much a relaxing back into rather than an efforting to get out of. And it makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Can you give an example of a time when you or one of your clients has found that self?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

This morning.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Well, late last night, I might have hypothetically received a text from an elderly family member from an emergency room in a state far, far from where I live. And this family member had had a fall and they were doing some testing. And my immediate response is wanting to get on a plane and go up there. And so we had a phone call this morning. And in my family of origin, because of burdens that have been passed down through many generations, it is considered sinful or selfish to say what you actually want. And so it makes communicating, especially around challenging issues, a little obtuse because what you're allowed to say in my family of origin is to manage someone else. And so there's a lot of guessing and subversive communication and trying to mind read. And it can be very difficult to just figure out do you want me to come or do you not want me to come? Because if you do, I'm on a plane. Let's do this thing. And it was it was very activating for some parts of me who really, really wanted to help and felt in a double bind. And as often happens, I laugh because I get kind of spun up. These parts of me take over and I feel all their feelings, I think their thoughts, I can feel it in my body. And I have to, even after all these years, stop and remind myself, Jenna, notice no need is available to you. So I took a timeout, I got in a comfortable place, I took a couple of deep breaths, and I just noticed. I just noticed what was happening with my emotions, my thoughts, my body. And I noticed that there was this kind of hot sense of vulnerability at my core, kind of right in my solar plexus. And it felt panicky, it felt very young, it was completely taking me over. That was the only thing I had access to. And so I literally put my hand on my chest as a physical, tangible reminder, and I just said, Hey, little one, I'm here. I'm noticing that you are pretty activated in this moment. And I don't want you to feel all alone with all of this activation. I'm noticing that you're here. Would you like to come sit in my hand, so to speak? Bring your energy into the palm of my hand so that I can be here with you and you don't have to completely take me over, which leaves you all alone with all of these painful feelings. And it took a minute. That wasn't easy because these parts were pretty activated. There's a lot of history, a lot of stuff underneath all of that, what looks on the surface like a pretty basic experience, no big deal. But like we say in the field, if it's hysterical, it's historical. And so I know if my response is much larger than the context, there's stuff going on there. And so eventually those parts accepted my invitation to come and just bring their energy into the palm of my hand. And that was very relieving because not only did their panic subside, and I got a little more clarity, a little more courage, a little more clear-mindedness. And I also started to really feel some compassion for these really young parts of me who very frequently felt in a double bind. No matter what I do, it's wrong. I'm not gonna get it right. I'm gonna try really hard. The purity of my heart is here, and I'm darned if I do and darned if I don't. And I was feeling a lot of compassion for these young parts. And I got a lot more into kind of my adult self with a capital S, the God image inside of me that had a much bigger, broader vision and understanding. And I said, What do you want me to know? And immediately the sense that I got is it's always been this way. No matter what I do, I'm doing it wrong. I have such a heart of wanting to help. And if I try this, it's wrong. And if I try that, it's wrong. And I'm just a bad person, I always wind up being a bad person in this double bind. And so I could offer a lot of compassion for that. A lot of memories came up where that experience was very real for me. This has been a lived experience, and it's very tender. The feeling of it is very tender. And when that vulnerability, the this part of me had had a chance to sort of show me all those memories, let me know why it got so activated and totally took me over in that moment. Then I could ask it, is there anything you need from me right now to feel a little more comforted, to feel a little less activated? And it was very clear, like I got the sense, I need you to be a different parent to me than may have happened in your actual world. I need you to speak on my behalf and say at a different time, when I experience this, it feels like a double bind for me. Would it be possible for us to communicate with I statements? So I am representing these tender ones more courageously, more clearly. Even if that statement isn't able to be received, I am parenting these young parts of myself more effectively and I'm advocating for them and protecting them. So that was an experience in my life within the last 24 hours where I used notice, know, and need to really respond differently to not such a big deal situation that brought a lot of activation for me, and it was very helpful.

Speak For Parts Not From Parts

SPEAKER_02 35:23

It's amazing to me that all of this is possible even just on your own. Yes. That's really important because this approach is not designed to require endless sessions of therapy. It seems like with skill, with practice, we can do this even like just ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

That is part of my hope. What I notice as an IFS therapist is that when we are in session and I can be with a client face to face, heart to heart for an hour, we can do really good work. And then I will encourage clients to check in with your parts between now and next session. And invariably, that's a really hard, if not impossible thing for people to do. They it's difficult, even if I describe what that looks like in session, for people to check in with their parts or to really continue to build relationship between the God image inside of them and the part. And just like any relationship, if we have, you know, say hello, get to know each other, have a deep conversation, and then we don't talk at all for a week or two weeks or a month, when we come back together, it's it's not going to feel the same as the last time we left. And so my hope is that this will be a tool, an accessible, easy to remember, easy to use tool for people to be able to check in with their parts and not have to have someone like me in the room to not have to be with the therapist. That being said, I will give a caveat that IFS can go deep quickly. And particularly for those of us who have experienced a lot of developmental trauma in our lives, sometimes it can get too much, you know, too fast. And so if we find that this can get overwhelming or we sort of get flooded and then get stuck, it's very important. And I give lots of resources for this, both in the book and on my website, uh, for how to connect with a trained IFS therapist. Many people really benefit from that support and that container to start with, particularly when we've had a lot of trauma in our lives. And over time, the hope is that we will develop the fluidity, the flexibility, and the skill to do what I did this morning, which is, whoo, I am triggered. I need some help right this minute. And I don't want superficial help. I mean, certain types of help is very helpful, breath work and grounding, and these types of things are wonderful. And they're not helping me to necessarily get at what's driving my triggering. And this tool does that so that we can not only feel more composure, but also find out why we were triggered and how to help that so it doesn't happen again or happen so intensely.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

There was an additional step or an additional framework that you modeled when describing what happened just this morning. You showed us how to speak for parts instead of speak from parts. You talked about advocating for yourself. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 38:59

This is a relationship-changing skill that Tony Herbine Blank really originally fully developed and fleshed out in her intimacy from the inside out or IFIO, which is the IFS approach to couples work, couples therapy. And it's very powerful because if you think about when we're triggered and a part has taken us over, we tend to speak from those parts. And what that means is if an angry part has taken me over, I'm going to speak angry words, I'm going to say angry things. If a lustful part has taken over, we're going to speak lustful words, we're going to engage in lustful behavior. That's how it works. But if we can help these parts of ourselves, when they take us over, because they will, to calm down, separate their energy from who we truly are, and allow us to support them. It's kind of like in my previous career, before I was a therapist many decades ago, I worked on Capitol Hill. And the speaker of the house on Capitol Hill is speaking on behalf of the different representatives in the room. It's a mouthpiece for other individuals who are being represented. And so there's a big difference between speaking from a part, which might sound like, you are such a jerk. How could you do this? What's the matter with you? That would be speaking from a part. If I can help that part to separate its energy from me, find out what it wants me to know and what it needs from me, then I, who I truly am, the calm, wise, clear-minded image of God, can represent that part and can speak on its behalf. I can speak for it rather than from it. And so how that would sound in this example is wow, I'm noticing there's an angry part of me that has gotten activated just now. And I'm aware, as I've noticed it, that it's trying to help protect my boundaries. And what it really needs is for me to say, I'm sorry that request is not acceptable, or you may not speak to me in that way, and I'm going to remove myself from this conversation. So notice the difference of speaking from an angry part and speaking for it. I can still be equally as angry because that anger may be really justified and really righteous anger. And when I speak from the anger, it gets me the opposite of what I'm looking for. When I speak for the anger, it gets me what the anger is trying to achieve. When I speak from it, it pushes people away. When I speak for it, it creates healthy boundaries. And that makes a world of difference.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yeah. It really does.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

And I give some scripts for how to do this and what this looks like in the move toward book so that people can both see it in action and then also practice doing it themselves.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Awesome. I have had a chance to spend some time with this book, and I am very, very excited to share it with all of you. It may or may not make an appearance in gift bags at certain upcoming retreats. It's awesome. You guys should all get a copy. Jenna, what is your favorite thing about Move Toward?

Resources Courses And Closing

SPEAKER_00 42:40

My favorite thing is that it's simple. Anybody can use it and anybody can remember it. And it helps all parts of us to truly feel welcome inside of us. And I'm so grateful for your support of the book and for the ways that you are so effectively helping so many men to really move toward the, in some ways, the most difficult parts of themselves with curiosity and compassion to find not only sobriety but long-term recovery. So I'm really grateful to you and the incredible work that you are doing.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Thanks, Jenna. I've learned a lot of it from you. And I agree that this is how Jesus relates to people. This is the love of God in action. Jenna, can you say more about the courses that you have available?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Absolutely. So if you come to my website, JennaRemersma.com, I have a variety of resources for people. I have free guided meditations, including move toward your part that is addicted. I've got move toward betrayal trauma. I have calming triggers, I have parts check ins. So lots of free resources. I've got free downloadable worksheets for you. And I also offer this content. In an on-demand video curriculum that people are welcome to check out. I have the first video curriculum that goes along with my first book, Altogether You, that talks about the integration of IFS with Christianity. And I'm working on filming the on-demand video curriculum for MoveToward, which will accompany the MoveToward book and groups can use to facilitate group book discussions. There's questions at the end of every chapter exercises. So hopefully it will really help it to be accessible and application oriented. And all of that is at JennaRemersma.com.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Are you still using Movetoward.com too?

SPEAKER_00 44:40

I should probably say that because no one no one can spell Jenna Remersma.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Movetorward.com as well. I'm going to put all of the links to your website to move toward to more information about internal family systems and the other book, Altogether You, which I highly recommend as well, in the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Thank you so much, Drew. It's always so good to be with you.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Gentlemen, always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.