Why This Podcast Exists

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go. Thank you so much for listening to my interview with Adam Nissenson on masculine betrayal trauma. Adam is the author of A Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal: Overcoming the Pain and Repercussions of a Cheating Partner. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist. He's a certified sex addiction therapist. He is the type of guest I've been hoping to interview for years because men get cheated on too. Male sexually betrayed partners are underserved, under-resourced, and under-reported. So in this episode, you are going to hear Adam's personal story of being cheated on, why this is so difficult for men, how men often react to the experience of being betrayed, the stages of grief they go through. You're going to hear about what healthy boundaries can look like and the difference between walls and shields, as well as the cost of not processing this pain and what you gain when you do the work of healing. If you might identify with the experience of masculine betrayal trauma, I encourage you to check out Adam's resources. Enjoy the episode. Today I'm excited to introduce you all to Adam Nissenson, a licensed marriage and family therapist who is also known as the betrayal shrink. And Adam has coined this really important and needed term of masculine betrayal trauma. Adam, thank you so much for your work. Thanks, Drew. Thanks for having me. What is masculine betrayal trauma?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

It's something no one's talking about. The short story, I like to say my little tagline is men get cheated on too. And the idea here is that our society has really developed this narrative that men are the only ones that cheat and women are the victims. And that's true. And actually, what we're really discovering is it's becoming almost equal in the sense of the percentage of men that are actually in committed relationships where their partner cheats on them. So cheating right can be a physical affair or an emotional affair. And it's sadly in the psychology industry, it's something that is never really talked about and it's not taught. And I actually wrote the first book to uh on it on that topic to help men, yay, to help men navigate what to do when their partners cheat on them. Because the truth is there's no resources out there, and we can get into that later in my story and how all that came about.

Adam’s Story Of Infidelity

SPEAKER_00 3:34

That's the book. Like your book, too, right? It's on Amazon's. A man's guide to partner betrayal. Adam, what is your story of being cheated on?

Shame And The Male Ego Wound

SPEAKER_01 3:46

The first thing I want to say about my story is it has nothing to do with my ex-wife. Like she's part of it, but my story is my story and the impact that it had on me. But I guess it's now well over 13 years ago. My my now ex-wife, she had an affair. It rocked my world. And in that journey, what happened? I we we went to a couple therapists and we bounced around a little bit. And I never felt safe. And I never felt heard or validated. And actually, sometimes, and I hear this story so much in my the work I do now is the betrayal shrink, but but I actually had like it was questioned like, well, what did I do to cause her to go cheat? And it that felt really incongruent to me. And it felt like the trauma, it felt like I was getting re wounded over and over again. And and of course I had a part, right? Like every every relationship has struggles and blind spots and stuff like that. But there was no resources for me. I felt, I felt super alone. Like I bought books and I was looking at stuff online, and and everything was right with again, was the man was the cheater. So that was really hard like to flip pronouns and try to not get triggered just by reading that. Cause I was kind of like, what about me? What about my wound? And there was nothing out there that was in the tone of a man, or even some of the stuff I read through didn't even connect with what my what my experience was around the shame and the ego wound.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah. You know, I think the biggest part of shame that a man struggles with when he's been cheated on is the cultural messages that equate with masculinity, with control, with strength, with sexual adequacy. Betrayal just cuts you down as a man, cuts you at your knees. And the other part is I think a lot of men feel like I should have been more, I should have been better, right? There's all kinds of shaming messages that I think men take on. And I did this, and to give you an example, one of my best friends and my brother, they didn't hear about my betrayal experience until eight years later. Because I just had so much shame. And, you know, the other part too, I think it's the social image of like men, right? And like you tell another guy he's gonna, right? He's gonna be like, well, take care of that, or right, or you know, you don't need her, right? You get those kind of macho machismo messages, and those do not help in the healing process, much less helping you understand what's happening to the ego and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

It seems like there's continuity and discontinuity in how men experience betrayal trauma compared to how women experience it. What are some of the unique aspects of it for men?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I think one of the main things I see happen is, and I kind of alluded to this, is men withdraw and almost completely, like, right, they'll isolate and then it's back to the shame. And then also men, we struggle with how to share our emotions, right? Because crying and being vulnerable, well, and unfortunately, back to the social norms, that that shows weakness. Whereas women actually they share their ex their feelings, they will express their feelings, they will seek help really quickly. And I'll I'll give you a couple great examples. I'm remarried, so my wife, Judith, she actually what's interesting is we we flip the coin. I work with men who've been cheated on. She works with women who are the betrayers or the cheaters. And so we're really in this interesting world. And she's doing the flip side that no one else is talking about, too, which is again really sad. If she does something out on the internet, she will get tons of emails and she will respond and she will get great responses. She'll get responses back, like a significant number. When I put something out there, let's just say every 15 emails I respond to and I respond to them all personally. If I tell you I get one or two guys that respond back, that's probably about average. Where I think my wife, she probably's 50% or more. I think also like men will shift to anger. Now, women too, right? But men and women do anger differently, right? And I'm not here to, you know, to make any sex right or wrong. I just, I'm here to talk about the things that we're not talking about or what men go through. And so, you know, men, we get angry, but then society tells men we can't be externally angry, so then we internalize it. So then the man might start to overcompensate, right? They might get deep into their work and become a workaholic. They might just totally shut down emotionally. I have a lot of guys that, and I know you do a lot of great work with men struggling with porn. Well, that's actually one of the easiest vices. I know when I was going through mine, I noticed like, man, I'm looking at a lot of porn because I was looking to numb out the pain was so heavy, right? And that idea of maybe never, right? You go into a story two of it'll never be the same. I'll never find another partner, I'm not desirable. Those are things the porn message, I think, feeds and tricks people into, right? Because I'm also a CSAT. Yeah, those are some of the differences that I kind of see.

Isolation Anger And Numbing Out

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Another trend or pattern I see is the difficulty of even being able to name. Name the pain. Yes. Like it's so difficult to say that I've been cheated on or that I'm experiencing betrayal trauma. There are so many reasons why we deny and dismiss and invalidate ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

You know, betrayal is one of those things that's like I like to say, like you ever been sick and your body just hurts, but you can't figure out where it hurts, but it's just that overwhelming, consuming pain. That's betrayal trauma, right? You just can't touch it and it comes in waves, right? And actually, one of the big, big struggles with betrayal is the intrusive thoughts. And so that's the thing that intrusive thoughts play into the shame. It's basically the way our brain works to kind of fill in the gaps. It's very active, if you will, during betrayal trauma because you're in so much trauma. And I want to stress that when you've been cheated on, it creates trauma. And trauma's trauma. And when we're in trauma, right, either we're in the fight or flight phase of things. And the intrusive thoughts come in like when we hear a song, right? And then we start to think about our partner. And then if we know some of the data around their infidelity, then we start to fill in the gaps and we go into these rabbit holes, if you will. And the intrusive thoughts grow and grow. And then we internalize it, we hold on to it, we don't share it, we can't name it because the other part is unnamable. You know, I feel like betrayal is kind of like you experience a death, and yet you get to see the person over and over and over again. So it's it's pretty painful. I think that's why naming it's so difficult.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

What's the cost of not processing that pain?

Naming The Pain And Intrusive Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 11:58

So many things. What's really interesting is I do I do men's betrayal groups. And you know, I kind of get the spectrum of men from it. Just happened a couple months ago. I discovered it, the D-Day, it's called, to men years down the road. And one of the patterns I'm seeing is men 10 years, 15 years since the betrayal, are finally doing the work. And you're asking what the cost is. Well, the cost is if you don't do it, it doesn't go away, guys. Like this isn't something that you can just like cut off an arm and you're good and you don't never, never need it again. It's kind of always there, right? It it grows. I think it grows in the sense of anger and resentment. I have guys tell me things that although they reconciled, and I do bunny ears on that, because reconciling isn't moving on and pretending as if. Reconciling is doing the work. And when I say doing the work, that means you're going to therapy or a betrayal trauma coach or you're doing some men's work, you're processing what you're going through, you're learning about things. Like my book walks you through that. You're learning about boundaries. I don't know, Drew, you if you ever talk about boundaries, but I think it's the one thing we all struggle with. But doing that, and your partner has to do the work too. If your partner doesn't understand the whys of what they did or what the gaps are, there's a chance they'll do it again. There's no growth, right? And I think we're one of the reasons we're put on this earth is to grow, is to learn, is to become better humans, right? I always like to think I want to leave this place better than when I got here. I want to have a positive impact. And I think if you don't do the work, so these guys hold on to this stuff. And then also it grows as resentment. And then it'll hit you again when you don't expect it. Maybe the kids move out, go off to college, or your wife does something again, right? And then also I think the other part is if you don't heal, if you don't grow from it, if you don't know if I'm staying in this marriage or relationship or not, then you don't, you're not fully alive. And then you're also not fully vulnerable and you're not fully having a relationship and you're not fully experiencing love. And then what is life if you don't get to have those true deep experiences? So it's important to let go of it and also let go of the unhealthy attachments that come with it.

The Cost Of Avoiding Grief

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Right. So we need to learn how to let go of the pain, the trauma, the shame, and also to set boundaries. Can you say more about healthy boundaries and maybe the difference between walls and shields?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah, that's kind of like my little metaphor. I'd like to use walls and shields, right? Because like the old therapy saying, if you put up a wall, right, you block out other people, but you keep yourself trapped in. Right. So that's not healthy. The shield idea, I love because it's kind of like I can protect myself, but I can still see you. I can be vulnerable when I need to be, right? It doesn't keep me trapped, it protects me. I will tell you part of my story or my journey was I was so afraid of giving my ex-wife boundaries because I thought I would push her away more. I thought it would give her an excuse to leave, which ironically, she already had the excuse to leave. I like to use also the metaphoric you wouldn't want to drive on a dark, foggy mountain road with a cliff off to the side without guardrails up. Boundaries are the guardrails. Boundaries are what keep you on the road. They, what I want to say that I think is really important is they're not punishment. And some boundaries should never be negotiable. So some of the basic boundaries after betrayal are you no longer get to see your affair partner. And if you haven't broken it off with him, you break it off with him. And actually, I might be sitting there with you when you make that phone call. You remove all his contact data, any different ways you were connecting with him. Right? And this isn't policing. This is if you want to reconcile, if you want to get fully back into integrity with yourself in this relationship, then these are these are the basic things that have to happen. Now I will tell you, I have guys I work with with their partners, they did that or they kind of did that, or they were really wishy-washy on it, and then they never did any other work. And so these guys have never felt safe. And then when I see the guys with wives who are starting to do the work, doing their counseling and stuff like that, the women that aren't reacting when the man is angry because he gets triggered, they're helping him heal. That's truly when you start to reconcile. There's all kinds of boundaries. I would tell you guys to talk to your therapist or betrayal trauma coach or life coach or some, whoever you're working with to help you navigate that. I also in my book I outline, I think, my boundary chapter is the biggest chapter, probably, of course. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

That seems like a really important topic because I can just hear some guy saying, What do you mean, learning how to protect myself? Like I've been trying to learn how to stop getting defensive, you know?

Boundaries That Build Safety

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's some of the work, right? Is to actually be in your truth and to maybe actually, for the first time in your life, really hold boundaries and let your partner know what you want and need. That's the other thing. I think a lot of relationships, we get into them and we just assume. Like I'll have guys say, well, we had an agreement, right? Well, there's tons of assumed agreements in a relationship. After betrayal, you can't assume anything anymore. It needs to be really black and white. And that's also how you know if you guys are healing and doing the work. Otherwise, you just kind of keep kicking that can down the road, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

What are some other ways that healing from masculine betrayal trauma can be transformative and life-changing?

SPEAKER_01 18:35

I was asked once if I would do it again, if I go through my experience of being cheated on. And I remember I took a deep breath, and then I was like, yeah, actually I would. I mean, it it sucked. It was really hard. It was probably some of the darkest times of my life, but I became a better man. Like this stuff cracks you open, guys. And this is a chance, right? Where you get to learn to be honest with yourself. You get to learn to speak your voice. You get to learn actually feelings, you get to learn healthy boundaries, you get to learn what's really important. And if you're reconciling, one of the things I love is I see men and their partners develop relationships that they never had, that they never even realized they could have. That's the gift, right? Is a lot of us grow up in homes that didn't model great relationships. And this gives you a chance to kind of stop those patterns. This gives you a chance to reclaim yourself, reclaim your values, reclaim your passion, and reclaim your masculinity in a different way.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Amen. Adam, what do you see as the difference between being triggered and just venting versus authentically processing raw feelings?

Shields Versus Walls

SPEAKER_01 20:00

So triggers, right, are that instant experience, right? So that's that fight or flight place, right? In a trigger, we're not thinking rationally. In a trigger, we're pretty much in a defensive posture. It's hard to be reasonable with anyone who's been triggered, right? And I would actually say out there, if you're the if you're the betrayer and your partner is being is triggered, the best thing to do is not to defend yourself, not try to fix it, actually just hold space for them, maybe even ask for a timeout. The authentic part is when I'm grounded and I can look at my partner, then I can actually say, I need to talk to you about something that's coming up for me, or I need to express to you some pain that I'm sitting with or an awareness. So it's actually first, it's asking permission, right? Because the other part is I want to make sure my partner is available to hear what I have to say. And I can tell you, when there's betrayal, there's so many triggers and there's so much heightened anger and tension. And you often will feel, I remember I felt like I just had to, if I dump this on her right now, I'll get rid of it and it'll serve her right. But if she's not willing to hear it, then it perpetuates the wind. So I ask permission. And if she says yes, great. If she says, I can't, I'm not in that place right now, I'll go, well, when? Can we do it after dinner? Sure. And then that I think I would call is masculine, mature energy. That's a healthier way of approaching what's going on for you. It's asking permission.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. Staying in a place of curiosity, calm.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

It's also in your power, you know. I think that takes a lot of power to do that. You know, when I work with couples, I'll say, um, I find it interesting when couples are arguing and fighting and everyone's yelling, no one hears each other. So, so nothing happens, right? So again, doing it in a calm way, doing it with clarity. Also, when I'm angry, if I can express what the anger is, but also the impact, if I make it more about me, if I use I statements I feel I'm experiencing, that limits the defensiveness for my partner because I'm not attacking them. And I want them to understand. So hopefully they can have some acceptance, some understanding, and some vulnerability towards me.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Some compassion. Yeah. I like how you've mapped out the seven stages of masculine betrayal trauma. What do those look like?

Triggers Versus Real Processing

The Seven Stages Of Betrayal

SPEAKER_01 22:46

In my book, The Seven Stages I Came Up With, one thing I want to say is they're not recovery and healing is not linear, right? We'll what it goes, actually, it's my my little logo, right? This is life, the score, you know, the back and forth and the twists and turns. Same in recovery work, right? There's those ups and downs. And so the first one is the ego injury, right? I think that's that's the first part. And the the ego injury, sometimes I think the word ego gets gets a bad name, but but the ego is important. It's that part of, it's the external part. It's how we think the world sees us or we want the world to see us. And so naturally being cheated on is gonna like really give that a swipe and knock it off. So the first part of the stage is understanding your ego wound, your ego injury. And from there, the second stage is questioning your self-worth. All right. And that's every, I think man or woman will do that. But for the man, it's like our worth is so much tied to our external accomplishments, right? That's kind of how men were wired. My house, my car, my family, my job, right? And all those kind of things. And so when betrayal hits, it kind of goes right for those things. And so we're trying to figure that out. And also we're struggling with grief. And so what you men usually do is we don't like grief. We don't like sadness, we don't like to be emotional in that sense. And so the next stage is anger, anger and projection. Anger and projection will pop in and out. Okay. And then the next stage is competitiveness and jealousy. And I'll tell you, Drew, when I was writing my book, and and writing my book was really therapeutic for me. I mean, it was such a long time ago. Like in each chapter I write, like my experience, I realized I was internally really competitive and jealous about the affair partner. And it wasn't that I thought he was better than me or better looking or any of those kinds of things. It was more, I just wanted to get even. And I remember I was scheming. I was like, because I knew he kind of had a partner at that time. I was like, oh, I can reach out to her, or I can reach out. I know his company and some of his clients. And I can like I just was fast, you know, I was fan the fantasy of that was really big. And and maybe in some ways those were like intrusive thoughts, right? Because I was spinning down rabbit holes and wasting time. But what happened, I realized, and and I think it's really important in my book, is that I was wasting time. I was wasting energy, I was wasting focus. He's irrelevant, really, in many ways, right? He wasn't there to fix me or fix the work or fix what was happening between me and my now ex-wife at that time. And so it was lost energy. So I think that's super important. The next stage, what I usually find is men, as we're processing through all that kind of stuff. I was talking about earlier, the shame. I think the shame is really big at this point. And as we're going through that, we start to isolate. Men feel that no one else will understand. Men feel that they're less than when they're going through this. I hear that story all the time in my men's group. And then what I watch about the third or fourth men's group, these guys open up and they start to realize, wow, I'm not alone. Right. And I think, I think the isolation is important because it gives us a chance to kind of hunker down and kind of feel and figure some things out. What's not safe or good is if you stay in that place, right? And then from there, I think if you do the work, I don't think I know, if you do the work, the next stage is your transformation. And this work is not quick work, guys. I mean, this could take years. And it's not like you have to do it every day, and it's not like it's all consuming, right? In the beginning, maybe yes, and it should be, but this is work that will continue. And depending upon if you stay in your relationship or not, rebuilding and transformation is different. So just know that happens. And then through there, right? It's the growth, it's becoming the part I love, like the new man that I became in my my growth around resilience and my growth around what's really important in my life. And that's the gift, right? There's always a gift. We can't have darkness without light. And if you stick this out, if you fight for it, you'll find the light and it works. So, yeah, those are the seven stages. I know I didn't number them, but that's pretty much the order there.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

It's beautiful. Adam, now that you've been through these stages yourself and worked with so many men through them, what is your view of masculinity now?

SPEAKER_01 27:48

That's a great question. Because I also think, you know, I think the idea of masculinity has changed a lot through these recent years, right? And my view and what I also want the world to see is I think masculinity can be as beautiful and fragile as femininity, right? I think, I think that's what makes men unique, is that we can hold an edge and we can hold a flower, that we can be vulnerable and we can be brave. And actually, I think vulnerability and brave go hand in hand. And I feel like that's part of what's happened to me is I have really learned to embrace my weaknesses, my flaws. They're what make me complete. And I have to have them. And I think the other bigger part is I'm super vulnerable now. Like I will cry in a movie. I am over the top with my wife, Judith. Like, I am not gonna withhold love. I'm not gonna protect my heart anymore. Because I think the more I show it, the safer I make it for everyone else in my life. So to me, that's masculinity. Is the heart is in front of the shield for sure. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

That's a powerful image. Yeah. What's your favorite thing about healing from masculine betrayal trauma?

Redefining Masculinity After Trauma

SPEAKER_01 29:11

If you do it, it works. I mean, if you do it, you can like I remember I was thinking, I don't know if I'll ever get married again. I don't know if I'll ever find love again. Sure, I'll date, but I'll never go that deep into it. And through the healing, I did it. I can do it. Anyone can do it. And I think when you do the work and you do the healing, you will attract a different kind of partner. You'll attract someone who's of like mind, of similar and maybe in their own journey. And that's the gift, right? Is to find that soulmate and that person that gets it, understands you, and allows you to be who you are.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Whether that's your transformed partner or a new partner.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah, totally. But it works both ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Well, I'm excited for people to learn more about you and get a copy of your book. You can find all of Adam's links in the show notes. What do you think is the best next step for a man who is starting to maybe possibly entertain the chance that maybe he has experienced this?

Ask For Help And Find Community

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Be brutally honest with yourself and ask for help. I think men, we often struggle to ask for help, like we struggle asking for directions, right? And the truth is, I talk to guys about this all the time. Men were taught surrendering is kind of a weak thing. To me, surrendering is brave. Surrendering means you have clarity. Surrendering means you know something isn't working, and surrendering means you know you can't do this alone. And guys, I guarantee you, you cannot navigate being betrayed in masculine betrayal trauma by yourself. Can't do it. You can read my book, but that's still not going to be enough. You have to find help. You have to find community. And let me say this, Drew. Community is not Reddit on these chat groups where people are slamming women and doing like, no, like this isn't, this isn't that. This is actually finding healthy, mature, strong masculinity that gives acceptance, support, validation, and listens to you and is balanced. So that would be my next step.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

I love that. Adam, thank you so much. Thanks, Drew. Loved being here. As we said before this podcast, there are more men struggling with this than we know, and more men struggling with this than they know. Yeah. So, guys, go down to the links in the show notes, go to betrayalshrink.com, check out Adam's work, and always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.