Podcast Mission And Guest Welcome

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Welcome to the Husband Material Podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go. Hey man, thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Jason Mellard, who has become a good friend. He's one of our certified coaches, and he's actually leading a workshop at the upcoming Husband Material Retreat in Georgia. We're talking about curiosity, childlike wonder, and awe. And you might be thinking to yourself, man, those are exactly the things that got me hooked on porn. Well, in this episode, you are going to hear how they can be part of getting you out into more freedom, imagination, and ultimately the kind of life that God created us for. These qualities are not bad. They can be redeemed. And Jason explains how. Jason has such a gift for bringing the best out of people, including me. He even inspired me to sing a song in the middle of this podcast. So enjoy the episode. Today I'm so excited that we get to hang out with Jason Mellard, who is a certified husband material coach, a high performance coach, and the founder of Own Your Identity. Welcome back to the podcast. Thanks so much, Drew, for having me. I'm excited to be here. Same. We're talking about curiosity, childlike wonder, and awe. What made those three words come together for you?

Defining Curiosity Wonder And Awe

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I love them. I consider myself somebody with childlike wonder. And that didn't come out for a lot of my life. And it was through, you know, years of recovery work and really digging deep that all of a sudden, you know, I got to a place where the future just felt more possible. Like I could dream a bit more. And it was exciting to get to that place where I could think, you know, gosh, what if? You know, what's possible? With the identity that I have, with the creativity that God's put in me, you know, what can happen? And really getting to a place where I can imagine again. It's so important, I think, for everybody to do that at any place in their recovery journey, during, before, after. When I look back on my childhood, I can see times where I had that same sense of childlike wonder, but it got cut off or just not fanned into flame. And I can look back at the past and I can see the pain. And often when I've done inner child work, I've focused on that, like looking at the younger Jason that is alone and lonely and having a hard time. But I think it's been helpful as well to look at the Jason that did get excited about things, that wondered what was out there in the world and what was possible, even if it was just short-lived sometimes. And I think capturing some of that is really powerful. God has created that in us and it's a beautiful thing. So I'd love to talk today about curiosity, childlike wonder, and awe. And I think they're all three related, but different and unique, each of them. So curiosity asks, What is this? Hmm, you know, what does this mean? What would happen if I pressed the red button? Wonder says, Oh, what's possible? What if? If I could imagine something, you know, what would that be? And then awe, I love it. I feel like that is a little bit more mature, a little bit more grounded, saying, Because God is so big, where am I in comparison in an amazing way? And I can feel small, you know, with awe, but it's a good small. You know, it's a small that says the world is immense and God is amazing. True. But I think with each of these three things, there's different parts to them. You know, there's that God-given curiosity that I talked about, but then there is a distorted curiosity that is not helpful.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

For many of us, our curiosity was exploited by pornography and hijacked by evil. And our curiosity became sexualized. So for many of us, curiosity is like what got us into porn. And I'm really in awe and wonder that it can also help us get us out.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Oh my gosh, Drew, that is probably one of the biggest things that you taught me. And I know you got that from other folks. I mean, Jay Stringer in particular, but I didn't know Jay Stringer. I knew you first, and then I've learned about him through you. But the idea of looking at our pornography use, our fantasies, our attractions from that place of curiosity is a way that we can redeem it. We can have God-given curiosity, we can have unhealthy, distorted curiosity that says, you know, what happens when I put in this search term? What does this person look like underneath their clothes? But when we use it for our good and for healing, it's it's powerful to say, you know, what does this fantasy have to tell me? What did that younger Jason, younger Drew really need back then? And then it becomes, you know, more expansive. You know, if you feel the difference in your body when you think about those different types of curiosity, to me, that's very helpful. When I think about it in that positive way, like, gosh, what does younger Jason need? How can I speak to him as a big brother, that mentor? And I feel more expansive. My chest just kind of opens up. But when I use that example of, okay, I'm gonna put in this search term, uh, what's gonna happen when I click to the next video? You know, I'm just more closed up. It's just like I get tunnel vision. And I like the idea of acknowledging that we have curiosity in us, but where it's gone awry, like you've said.

Redeeming Curiosity From Porn Patterns

SPEAKER_01 6:29

This is so good. I'm feeling inspired by the difference between healthy curiosity and unhealthy curiosity. Maybe healthy curiosity is about observation, like observing my own inner world, being curious about what's happening within another person or what's out there in the world versus obsession. And I think obsession versus observation might be a helpful distinction. Like in porn, it's not just mindful, calm awareness, right? It's that craving.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, it's necessity of it. You know, good curiosity is kind of can be exciting, you know, but the excitement that has a need to keep going more and more. Yeah, that necessity, that craving of it, versus a neutral point of view. Like, huh, life is pretty cool, but I wonder what's around the corner. You know, a little kid, they go to school for the first time. Man, what's that gonna be like? Who am I going to meet there? What am I gonna discover? What am I gonna do? You know, that's awesome. We want to develop that way. But then over time, when we decide that we're gonna give that curiosity over to something else, then we're robbing ourselves of that opportunity. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

I really like that question of what or who am I giving my curiosity to?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

I think the same thing can go with wonder. When I look at maybe the distorted view of wonder, I might think about fantasy. You know, that imagination can be awesome to imagine, you know, what is possible in life, or things like that. You know, what can I build? What can I create? I think as men, we're we're made to create things. And when I give it over to fantasy, instead, when I use my imagination to escape life rather than build a life, then again, I'm robbing myself of something that God has given me. We have to have a vision for what's in the future to be able to imagine what's possible. When I give that vision, when I escape reality into pornography or fantasy, then I'm not really living. And we're called to live, you know, fully alive. And to do that, we have to be present, not wanting to escape. There can be fantasy that's about imagining, you know, what if, but we want to imagine what if and know that it's possible to really engage fully with it.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

There can be an imagination of fear, like what if everything goes wrong? There can be an imagination of hope, and that inspires courage. And there can also be that twisted imagination that becomes inwardly selfish.

Wonder That Creates Instead Of Escapes

SPEAKER_00 9:21

For sure. When I think about you know what's possible, an idea of that. I know the first time that I had the thought about starting creating content or coaching in relation to same-sex attraction, I remember sitting on the couch, it was Thanksgiving, and I had done a lot of personal development work, you know, the couple years prior. And I just had this thought that came to my mind. You know, what would it be like to overlay some of the skills that I've learned in personal development, the mindset work, you know, visioning into same-sex attraction? You know, it just seemed kind of small at the time, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized, you know, it is powerful to look at something for through a different lens. Same-sex attraction, often it's been a trauma type of work that's been done with that. But to see it through a personal development lens, like, all right, where do we want to go? And how can we change the story about our attractions or about our porn use in a way that's going to propel us forward and have something that's going to draw us that way. And so it was really fun to imagine, gosh, what would it be like to really lean into this? I remember just having a little notepad on my phone with different topics that I could talk about, you know, started outlining chapters of a book, ended up doing the podcast instead, the on your identity podcast, and would imagine, you know, what the different episodes would be. And I think one of the coolest things that I wondered about was who would I get to meet by doing this? You know, what lives might be touched? I wanted to have a front row seat to God doing the impossible in people's lives. And often that's just looking at something a little differently, maybe believing what God says about them in a more real way than they had before. And I wanted that. And it was so cool to think about how it could grow and build and what I would need to do to get there. So that was a beautiful way for me to really put wonder into practice in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah. I love how your imagination has been redeemed to help so many men. An example of what you were talking about earlier, the difference between building and escaping, or we might think of it as the difference between creating and consuming. You bet. What do you see as the difference between imagination that gives life and creates versus imagination that pulls us away from reality and just consumes?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

I think a lot of it's about connection. You know, I think about the imagination that creates, I think about the people that I'm going to connect with. But when I'm consuming, I'm just alone, you know, alone with myself, maybe pixels on the screen, uh, other folks that are there. And I think that it's connection, but it's it's false. That's huge for me. I would love to ask you, Drew, when you first thought about creating husband material and you wondered about that, like what did that feel like for you? What was that story for you?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

I remember so vividly in 2018 watching the movie The Greatest Showman and the song Every night I lie in bed, the brightest colors fill my head, a million dreams are keeping me awake. I think of what the world could be, a vision of the one I see. Million dreams is all it's gonna take. And I was dreaming of a world where Christian men could feel loved and healed without purity culture, without the old accountability approach, finally experiencing the brotherhood and belonging that we were created for. And I wanted that so badly. And here we are. Like, thank you, God.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

That is so fun. I can imagine you just playing that song over and over again as you're thinking of this dream and this possibility. I've done the same thing with that exact song. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

I was weeping, I heard that song, and it destroyed my heart in the best way because that was me, and that's still me in a big way.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And I'm having new dreams now. Well, in part of that movie, it starts off as a little boy. Yeah, he's singing it, and then it grows up to be the man. You know, it's a connection across time.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I think that world of freedom from porn exists in a way that it didn't, and yet porn has also evolved too. And so we need more imagination, more creativity about how to continue to reclaim our imaginations for healing. It starts by taking the shame out of it, and that's what you've done.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I remember Jake Porter once said curiosity is incompatible with shame. That you can't experience both at the same time because curiosity is inherently uncertain and open to learning, whereas shame has an element of certainty and closure with it. And so I think with both curiosity and childlike wonder and awe, you talked about the beauty of feeling small in a good way, whereas shame almost feels big in a bad way. And so that's one of the reasons why it's so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

And I think you're right on that. Vulnerability is key. It takes vulnerability to be curious because, you know, like you said, shame has certainty associated with it. But curiosity, and especially, you know, wonder and awe, you know, you're gonna open yourself up. That's vulnerable to dream, to imagine. You know, I know a lot of guys that they don't dare dream that something is possible because it's not safe to feel that way. You know, you have to believe something different in that moment to do that. You have to believe that, you know, maybe I'm not as bad as I thought I was. Maybe there's hope for me. Maybe God has something He can do in me. To be able to choose, to dream, to wonder, in the moment, you have to switch those beliefs about who you are. And it's hard to do when you are in the habit of believing certain things, but it's powerful. And I think that's one of the great ways that these things can impact people as they're moving through recovery because it changes your identity, is something that's telling yourself something different about maybe who you thought you were. The pornography, the temptations are not defining you, the attractions don't define you. You get to decide that something better is possible. And that means that you have worth, you have value, you have strength, you have possibility that God is limitless and amazing and he's chosen you and that he wants to do something great through you. But that can be scary to believe that. And questions could come into your mind, like, well, what if I relapse? What if I screw up again? But going into continued recovery from a place of fear and shame is not as powerful as vulnerability and love. So even though it can be scary, that's gonna get us a lot further along when we choose vulnerability, love, wonder, curiosity, and awe.

Awe Without Lust Or Idolatry

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Amen. It's living a bigger story. Porn is such a small story compared to being fully alive. One of the words that we're focusing on today is awe, which is often appreciation of beauty. And in Sam Jolman's book, The Sex Talk, He Never Got, he says part of good sex, the way God created it, is awe and reverence for the sacredness of our bodies, for the sacredness of that intimacy. And I think some of us have confused awe and lust. Like when you see an athlete, male or female, performing at a high level, it inspires awe. Like when you see a really physically attractive person, male or female, like there can be a sense of wow, that's not bad. There's a difference between appreciation and addiction.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah, it's when the awe goes to, oh, and what does that mean about me that I maybe don't measure up? The comparison starts to come in. And you can say, you know, that is an amazing athlete, period. Right? But when we go to, and what do I need to be able to be like them so that I am acceptable and have value too? And then all of a sudden, awe becomes idolatry. We move our focus off the creator and onto the created. I need something from them to be what God's already made me as. I already have the identity in Him as a believer in Christ, as a beloved son. But when I shift and I think, oh, I need them to be able to tell me I have value so that I can feel okay, so I can feel strong. Then my focus becomes them as an idol versus them as an inspiration, somebody I can admire and say, wow, I'd love to be more like that. I'd love to work harder to improve in the areas that they have. Or maybe I can even say, gosh, where do they remind me of the things in myself that I already possess that God has caused me to lead out in? That maybe I've just forgotten in this moment because I'm feeling a little bit insecure. And so I think that's a good distinction when you find yourself, you know, putting somebody else on a pedestal rather than God on the pedestal.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yes. So awe does not have to lead to idolatry, it can lead to worshiping God. I mean, we have this heart within us that wants to worship something or someone. And we can let beautiful, strong, amazing people be an opportunity to say, wow, God, thank you for putting so much goodness in this world. And that feels more expansive. I can just feel the physical difference that you were talking about earlier. And I've heard a lot of guys say that when they actually talk to the person that they are in awe of, sexual thoughts and feelings tend to dissipate.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah. You realize, okay, they're like me, I'm like them. It's not quite as amazing as it is. Because we play up this fantasy in our mind often, but you realize that they're just another person. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

It can break the cycle of unhealthy curiosity, maybe with healthy curiosity, of wanting to get to know that person a little bit, hear more of their story.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah, you bet. I think one of my favorite parts of all these things is that I get to know Christ more by practicing these things. Get to know God. I think that's one of the big reasons we're here on earth, right? To know Christ more and to make him known. He is the author of Curiosity, Wonder, and Awe. And I get to participate in that aspect of his character. That's part of who he is. And we wouldn't have that apart from him. And so when I see those things in the God-given form that they are, then I feel like I'm more connected to him. You know, I get to imagine alongside him, it's not just me here doing it. Maybe I can just get excited about something on my own. But then I, you know, I look up to him and I say, God, what do you think? You know, do you want to partner together in this? Or you know, do you have something better for me? And I can see his face. And I like to think sometimes that, you know, God gets a sense of excitement on his face. Maybe this anticipation, like, yeah, Jason, that could be really cool. Or I have this other idea. Let's brainstorm together. You know, and I just like that relationship with him. When I see him, definitely as my Lord, as my savior, but also my friend, you know, who he wants to hang out with me. I want to hang out with him, and we can enjoy those things together. I just I love that that part of it and connects me to him.

Practices To Cultivate Awe Daily

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Amen. The excitement and delight of God. It seems like God is interested in what makes us feel alive. Jason, what have you discovered about looking back at moments when you felt that healthy curiosity, wonder, and awe?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah, I just feel like when I'm there, again, I'm more connected to God and my future. I can look to the future without fear, but with a sense of possibility and knowing I'm not alone. You know, that God's there, that He's calling me into it. And I can't allow myself to feel more expansive. You know, when I've looked at porn in the past, one of the things I loved about doing that is that everything just goes away. Everything just Kind of fades to the background, all my fears, all my worries. And in a sense, when I'm that in that childlike wonder with God, you know, some of that same thing happens, but it's in a creative, powerful place. But I have to choose to do that. I have to set aside the time for it. I have to decide that I'm important enough to do that and that I'm worth it because God has given me, you know, that joy and that delight. I have a visualization that I do with some of my clients where they wake up in the Garden of Eden, like before the fall, where everything was perfect and they're there. And you know, they're just sitting looking at all the amazing things that God had created, and just like, wow, this is just extra. It's just so much more than anything I've seen before. And then all of a sudden, you know, God walks up behind them and they feel his presence, and God kind of taps them on the shoulder and they turn and they see God. He's like big, you know, huge, or however however you would envision God. And God's just smiling because he knows that he has something really cool that he wants to show. And God, in that visualization, takes them to a place in the garden that is designed just for them. Now think of the Garden of Eden, and there's so many people there, you know, ideally. But I think also God has something unique for us. And we go into a grove where there's a field of trees and it's just open. And God's like, this is where you know I have given a piece of property for you to create something based on how precisely I have put creativity and amazing things inside of you. You're gonna make something that nobody else is gonna design it for. But what I want you to know is that I have a space for that. There's a space for you in my kingdom, in my world, on the earth, for you to make something that I have gotten excited about already. And I want you to step into. And that's what I love about that. The space, but mainly the look on his face that I imagine. You know, he looks at me and like, this is gonna be cool, Jason. You're gonna love it. This space, what you're gonna be able to do here, that we're gonna do it together, you know, we're gonna have all these ideas. And that's when I feel most alive. That's when I connect with that younger version of myself in just a fun, life-giving way. You know, I connect with him when he has needs, when he's hurting, when I'm going too fast and he says, Jason, slow down. But I can also connect with that boy that said, you know, what if? What if I, you know, wrote a novel? What if I learned how to do this thing? You know, what if I met all these people and traveled to all these places? And I can say, let's do that together. I can take you there. And God's in it with us. You know? I love it.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

That's amazing. If someone listening wants to cultivate that kind of curiosity, childlike wonder and awe, what's a good place to start?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I'd say just pause. Pause where you are in the day. Because life is crazy. And we can be jumping from one thing to the next. We can have all kinds of swirling thoughts, but make time for it. Pause and open yourself up to what God might have to show you. You know, look at the things around you and say, what does this tell me about the bigness of God? Maybe start there, start with the awe. God is big. And because he is big, because I'm certain that he is good, certain of who I am in him, then I can feel safe and vulnerable enough to wonder, to imagine, to dream, and then to get curious about what are the next steps that I might need to do to head that direction. And God can show me what those things are. But it takes honoring yourself, it takes pausing, it takes intentionality, but it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Dude, this is so good. I can't believe you listened to that's my song. Oh, it's one of my favorite movies. Yeah, I still put that on sometimes, you know, because I felt when I was a kid that I didn't have permission to dream. You know, like I didn't I didn't feel like that I could do that. And that's one of the best things I can give myself is permission to dream, to believe that something is possible that I could be a part of, not just watch, but to actually participate in. So cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Amen. This is so good. Jason, what is your favorite thing about curiosity?

Retreat Invite And Final Blessing

SPEAKER_00 26:57

My favorite thing about curiosity is that I can use it to my advantage, like we've talked about. I can, you know, see that as something that I can transform. If I can transform curiosity, what else can I transform? I wonder what else could I transform? How could I look at something else differently? I experience same-sex attraction. How can I look at that differently when I'm curious about it? When I can imagine other things, and then that leads to awe, leads to something bigger. I can look at things differently from a place of curiosity that I couldn't before. Amen. That's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

And guys, if you want to connect with Jason, check out his podcast, go to ownyouridentitynow.com, and we have all the links to more of this in the show notes. And Jason is actually going to be leading a workshop at the Husband Material Retreat coming up in Georgia, which I'm very excited about. So you can join us live in northern Georgia in late April if you would like to experience that. Jason, thank you so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Thank you, Drew.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

And guys, always remember you are God's beloved son. And you, he is well pleased.