Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

Today we are talking about how to take a redemptive risk. You're going to learn what redemptive risk is, why any step toward outgrowing porn involves redemptive risk, and three steps to take one with wisdom and faith, because we need faith. And as we begin, I have a question for you. How does change happen? How does healing happen? How does recovery happen? How does freedom happen? How does transformation happen? Dave says it happens through God working in and through us. Matt says, stepping into the unknown, taking a risk. Exactly. That's why we're talking about it tonight. Drew says, change happens through patiently and intentionally yielding to union with Jesus as my ultimate source. Wow. Love that. Brent says, it usually happens slowly, although I wish it weren't so slow. Sometimes the speed of our recovery is proportionate to the level of risks we are willing to take. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Duncan says, it happens through doing something differently. Matthew says one small risk at a time. And while I fully agree with that, I also want to add that there are no small steps toward outgrowing porn. Every single step, however small it may seem, is giant and worth celebrating. Even just listening to this episode is a redemptive risk. You choosing to be here with me right now is you choosing hope, choosing faith, choosing love, choosing yourself, choosing to believe that you matter, that maybe there's more, and that you're gonna get something out of this. You could be disappointed. So even being with me right here, right now is a risk. In my book, Outgrow Porn, I claim that any step toward outgrowing porn involves redemptive risk. Not just risk, sexually acting out is a risk with lots of potential negative consequences. Risk itself does not heal. Redemptive risk does not always heal. But healing does not happen without it. So, what is redemptive risk? I want to describe it using some language I learned from a somatic therapist named Rezma Menekem in his book, My Grandmother's Hands. In this book, he describes the difference between clean pain and dirty pain. And this is so perfect. It is such a powerful description of redemptive risk versus non-redemptive risk. He says there are two kinds of pain, clean pain and dirty pain. Clean pain is the pain that mends and can build your capacity for growth. It's the pain you experience when you know exactly what you need to say or do, when you really, really don't want to say or do it, and when you do it anyway. When you're scared or worried about what might happen, and when you step forward into the unknown anyway, with honesty and vulnerability. Experiencing clean pain enables us to engage our integrity and tap into our body's inherent resilience. Dirty pain is the pain of avoidance, blame, and denial. When people respond from their most wounded parts, become cruel or violent, or physically or emotionally run away, they experience dirty pain. They also create more of it for themselves and others. Guys, we cannot escape pain in our lives, just like we cannot escape risk and unknown. We can only choose between dirty pain and clean pain. And I believe to get lasting freedom from porn means slowly, over time, continually facing our fears and choosing the clean pain of redemptive risk. That's why we're here tonight. That's what this is about. I know it's not a terribly attractive idea to say we need to choose pain, but we really can't escape pain. Pain is going to happen. We are either going to have clean pain or dirty pain. And so many of us, for so many years, know the agony and despair of dirty pain. And I wish I could tell you that there's a really foolproof formula for getting rid of the dirty pain in your life. But the closest thing I have to that is choosing clean pain. It is not fun, it is not easy, it sucks. It can be terrifying. It can even be re-traumatizing, which is why tonight's episode is so important. I want to teach you how to choose clean pain, how to take a redemptive risk so that you experience healing, freedom, change, transformation more fully than ever before, maybe. So how do we suffer well? How do we put ourselves out there vulnerably in a way that could hurt us or could heal us? Michael says you have to go through the pain, not around the pain. It's the only way. That's what redemptive risk is. It's choosing clean pain, believing that maybe just maybe there is goodness and beauty and truth and flourishing on the other side of it. Maybe even in the middle of it. Here's my definition of redemptive risk: it's opening yourself up to an experience that could potentially hurt you or heal you, depending on how it goes. It's vulnerability, not just transparency. Here's the difference. If I go to the zoo and I'm looking in at an exhibit with the tiger, and there's a thick pane of glass between us, I'm transparent, I'm visible to the tiger, but I'm not vulnerable to the tiger. When we take away the glass, now I'm vulnerable. The Latin root vulnus means wound. So to be vulnerable is to be woundable. To take a redemptive risk is to make myself woundable so that I can be healable. And that's why we need wisdom, because it's not wise to take a redemptive risk with just anyone or just anywhere. There are some groups that will not hold space for your story or for your pain. There are some people that just don't have the capacity to hold your sexual story with kindness. There are some activities that sure might be healing, but the risk is higher in some places than others. So we need discernment so that we can maximize the chance of healing and minimize the chance of hurt. Knowing that just the act of being vulnerable is painful, it is difficult. And even when a risk goes wrong, it can build your sense of resilience and identity when you realize, wow, I just made a choice in alignment with my values. I did something brave. And you know what? I'm still here. I can do hard things. When those identity beliefs sink in a little bit deeper, that can be healing too. Dave says redemptive risk resulting in failure gives us the knowledge that we are able to fail, pick ourselves up, and still move forward. We will talk about that. Even if you take a redemptive risk and it goes horribly wrong, it can still be healing. Let's talk about some examples. What are some examples of redemptive risks that you are taking or that you have taken or want to take on this journey of outgrowing porn? Remember, it's what Medicum said: the thing that you know exactly what you need to say or do, but you really, really don't want to say or do it. And well, you do it anyway. What is that for you? Hugh says, Telling my wife I struggle with porn. Man, that might be one of the most redemptive risks you ever take. And it certainly needs a lot of wisdom and support, both for you and for her. Thank you, Hugh. Richard says, telling a friend that I am sexually attracted to men. Yeah, that can take a friendship so much deeper, and it can also end a friendship. Unfortunately, I hear stories of both. In any case, it's brave. Dave says, confronting and facing a difficult situation when I would rather run away. Yes, embracing conflict is a redemptive risk. It's actually one of our core values at Husband Material in Husband Material Academy, the courage to face conflict rather than avoid conflict or ignore conflict or attack the other person, choosing to face it, to show up with curiosity and compassion. Having difficult conversations is one of the biggest things, I think, that can trigger guys to go back to porn. Because porn is an escape. It's a way to not think about it. It's a distraction from what we know we need to say or do, but when we really don't want to say or do it. Brent says showing up and sharing with other men in person. Yeah, when there's a redemptive risk like sharing with someone else, you can take it to the next level by making it more embodied. So rather than sharing online, sharing in person makes it more embodied, potentially riskier, and potentially more healing. We see that all the time at our retreats. Duncan says attending a celebrate recovery group, attending the HM retreat, when I first told my counselor I struggled with porn, all of those are redemptive risks. Because you never know fully what's going to happen. Contrast that with porn. Porn is fueled by certainty, control, and predictability. In contrast, redemptive risk is about letting go of control. It's about giving up however I think something should go. And this is why courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to tolerate discomfort and uncertainty. I think that is a game changer. When you realize that courage is not the tough guy image of nothing phases me, I'm fine. I got this. That's not courage. That's just pretending. Courage is when you're terrified of something and you do it anyway. Courage is choosing to take a leap of faith, trusting that you'll be caught or that you'll be able to pick yourself back up after you fall. I think this is one reason why shame can feel safer than grace, because shame has an element of certainty with it. You know, if you think about some of the lies you've believed about yourself, they tend to feel almost self-evident. Like there's not much doubt. I know I'm a loser. I know I'm worthless. But when you start to believe that maybe you are God's beloved son, and that in you he's well pleased, it doesn't have that same feeling. It has a feeling of risk associated with it, of taking a trust fall to believe that in my bones. So this is inherent in the Christian life, and every step of recovery, I think, is a step of letting go of control, of becoming more able to tolerate discomfort and to receive good things. This journey is not just about avoiding what's bad, it's about receiving what's good. And that is a risk. It's hard to trust it. Hugh says, It helps to know God has my back. Absolutely. Wendell says, being curious about the sexual trauma I experienced as a young boy rather than assigning blame, that is a profound example of redemptive risk because curiosity and shame are incompatible. Blame implies certainty and control rather than the openness of curiosity. Benjamin says, choosing to be honest with how I am doing with other men regarding my emotions, lust, etc., and allowing them to speak into my life, that is a risk because they might say something really unhelpful. They might get it wrong. And for some of us, maybe it's the risk of choosing to be just a little bit more honest next time. For me, whenever I go through a porn recovery group that I'm leading or that I'm in just as a participant, my challenge is to share just a little bit more than I've ever shared before, to find one thing that I've never told anyone, the embarrassing detail that I so wish wasn't true, and to take just a little bit more risk. And the more I do, you know, the easier it gets. It's still difficult to push that boundary, but the boundary moves. And so the things that I used to be terrified about sharing are no longer that scary. And that's some of the slow work of transformation that we've been talking about. Michael says, asking a girl out on a date, playing pickleball. Scott says, choosing to hope. You know, Dan Alender once said that every addiction is an attempt to slay hope, to kill hope. Isn't that true? Because frankly, despair is easier. Hope implies that I don't have what I want yet. It's tension, it's unfulfilled longings. Hope is painful. Hope can be agonizing. So choosing to hope is indeed a risk. Matt says, admitting failure. Yeah, that's a huge one. You guys have put together a great list. I will add some more items to this list. Here are some that come to mind for me. Try out a new tool when you're triggered. Like for many of us when we are sexually tempted and triggered, we kind of know something that would probably help us, but in the moment, it seems unhelpful. It seems useless, powerless, weak. The tools that we think of as solid and reliable on a normal day all of a sudden seem not that great when we're in the middle of really tough situations. So maybe taking the risk to actually call a friend or actually do the floss method or BOA or older brother coaching or going for a walk outside could be a risk for you. In fact, one of the things I'm often telling guys to do is practice using your tools even when you don't need them, even when you're not tempted, even when you're not triggered, because then you're building the neuropathways that will be there for you when you do need them. Dave says, I never thought of using regulation techniques as taking a risk, but it is a risk. You don't know how much it's gonna work for you, you don't know how much it's gonna resonate with you. Every time I engage with my inner child, I don't know what's gonna happen. And yet, invariably something good happens. It's healing, it's practice. And I know for some of you that might be really foreign and difficult as you engage in husband material, as you continue to learn how to outgrow porn and heal the boy to free the man, it becomes easier. But then again, not every tool is going to work perfectly for every person in every situation. So it is a risk to see: do I need to call a friend? Or is that gonna make me feel even more alone? Do I need to engage with my inner child, or is that gonna put me in even more pain and trauma? It's always a risk. Another redemptive risk could be taking time off to connect with nature, yourself, andor God. How is that a risk? Well, it might mean getting less work done. It might mean risking disappointing people. It might mean taking the risk of trying something and then it doesn't work out because you got sick or because the weather was bad. There are all kinds of ways that anything can go wrong. And sometimes when we think of the worst-case scenario, it prevents us from even giving it a shot. Here's another one. Initiate a difficult conversation that you've been avoiding. Maybe it's asking someone out on a date. Maybe it's talking to a roommate or your spouse about something that's been bothering you for a long time and you haven't told them yet. It could be a difficult conversation with yourself. Admitting something to yourself that you've been in denial about. Working with a new professional coach, counselor, or therapist, trying a new program, joining a new group, all of those are redemptive risks. Revealing a sexual secret you've never told anyone out loud. That's a big one for me that I continue to press into. And this is one that is so powerful and yet so heartbreaking at the same time. If you leave a toxic job, relationship, or home environment, you are taking an incredibly redemptive risk. When I see guys move out or leave their job or break up with somebody as a redemptive risk, I know that it's the right thing for them. They know it's the right thing for them. And yet sometimes when you take that kind of risk, you end up sexually struggling even more because you're stepping even more into the unknown. And your system is looking for something familiar, something it can control, something predictable. And porn is pretty good at that. We don't watch porn because it makes us feel happy. We watch it because it makes us feel normal. It's familiar, it has the illusion of safety. And so one of the best things often you can do is to change your environment, to get out of a toxic space. And yet, when you do that, you open yourself up to the potential emptiness on the other side. That can be just as difficult. But it's clean pain. It's not the dirty pain, it's clean pain. And I want you to remember that. The question is not really choosing the known or the unknown, it's which unknown. While porn might seem like the known entity, I mean, the consequences of it long term are truly unknown. It is a risk either way. One is redemptive, one is not. I'm convinced that redemptive risk is. The key to becoming the kind of man who simply does not need porn anymore. It's how you change your brain. Each risk you take builds new neuropathways, the neuropathways of courage, curiosity, compassion, finding your strength and power. Because you are powerful. Some of you have been through 12-step programs that have taught you that you are powerless. Alone, perhaps, yeah, in isolation, in shame, with help. You are not powerless. And for some of you guys, if you really feel powerless, maybe the most powerful thing you can do is reach out for help. This journey is not about admitting that we're powerless as much as it is using our power for good, even if it's not something I can do alone. I saw this happen last year at the Husband Material retreat in Colorado when one of our breakout sessions invited men to take a cold plunge in an ice bath. At first, I didn't think many men would do it, but most guys actually did it. They got in the ice bath and they stayed in it for multiple minutes. And some of these guys would have never thought that they would do something like that. It was an incredibly redemptive risk for them. And part of how it brought healing is through other men. When they got into the ice bath, they had the option of receiving support from a friend who would be looking into their eyes, speaking words of affirmation, maybe even holding their hand to say, brother, you are loved. You can do this. I'm with you. Oh like there is so much learning and healing and growth when we're willing to be uncomfortable, to take the cold plunge, metaphorically speaking, with each other. So guys weren't just taking a cold plunge to be a man. This was about learning to train our brains and our bodies to tolerate discomfort, uncertainty, and clean pain together with connection empowering us along the way. The first step to taking a redemptive risk is to start with why. Why am I taking this risk? What is the goal driving me? Because if I don't have that, I might not even take the risk. I might back out at the last minute. I might start to take the risk and then lose confidence and kind of sort of go for it, but not really. We need to start with why. What is more important to you than the pain you will feel with this risk? Fix your eyes on Jesus. Keep your eyes on the prize. Whether that's the focus on God Himself, maybe it's the focus of changing your brain, healing your heart, saving your relationships. Freedom from porn is a great goal, but we have to get underneath that to why. Why is that great? What do you want to be free for? That's the first step. When you have a clear purpose in mind, it's easier to do something that you may have thought of as impossible. I want you to think of one redemptive risk that you want to take right now and ask yourself, why am I doing this? What is my purpose in taking this risk? What matters more to me than the pain I will feel? What potential positive outcome is so precious that I'm willing to risk the possible negative outcome? Richard says his purpose is experiencing acceptance when I tell someone something I'm ashamed of. Absolutely. Benjamin says, My why behind continuing to give up alcohol is because it is the number one factor to me wanting to look at porn. The cost is absolutely worth it because not only is porn less appealing, I am more present with God and others when I'm sober. Love that. That is the first step. That is your North Star. That is the pre-work before taking a redemptive risk. The second step to taking a redemptive risk is to count the cost. Be honest with yourself about what could potentially go wrong and decide if the risk is still worth taking. And when you actually take the risk, step three is to own your strength. Own your strength. This is what we talked about earlier when I said that you are not powerless. You are powerful. You can take redemptive risks, you can lean on others for support. You can find community. You have a father who loves you. You have the Son of God who died for you. And you have the Holy Spirit living within you. You are created in the image of God. You are a man of beauty and strength, purpose and love. You can do hard things. Owning your strength means facing your fears. Even when your fears come true, reaffirming your resilience. Maybe you're stronger than you think. And as you take these steps of starting with why, counting the cost, and owning your strength, here's what I've learned to expect while taking a redemptive risk. And this is an excerpt from the book Outgrow Porn. First, evil hates redemption. When you take a redemptive risk, you will face opposition. Expect it. Especially if you're stepping out for the sake of the kingdom of God or you're reclaiming territory that the enemy has held in your life for a long time, the spiritual forces of darkness will attack you. And I never fully know what that is going to look like ahead of time. But man, every single time I do something at Husband Material that seems like it's going to be helpful or important, like a big milestone, like publishing my book or leading the first retreat or doing an HMA launch. Oh my goodness. Every single time we go through a storm. Second, your risk may appear to fail, but you never know what the long-term ripple effects of your redemptive efforts might be. You might start something and think it failed. It never got off the ground. But maybe that led to something that led to something else that was a miracle. Don't assume that when you take a risk, it has failed because it didn't go the way you hoped. It may be part of a much bigger story with an ending that you could not have predicted. And third, the outcome you initially intended can evolve into something different and far more beautiful than you ever imagined. That has been the story of husband material. Gentlemen, the only way to completely avoid growth is to completely avoid risk. And if you want to take your redemptive risks to the next level, see if you can target some of the exact places where you have been harmed and go there. We had a man who was abused in a Christian camp environment come to our retreat at a Christian camp. The exact place where he was harmed became the exact place where he was healed. And isn't that exactly what Jesus does? When you take redemptive risks, you live a bigger story. Porn is a small story. There's no suspense. When we choose the clean pain of redemptive risks, we live a story that is way more compelling than any sexual content we have ever consumed. Michael says one risk leads to another risk, right? This is like a muscle that you can build and develop. And some of you guys are taking incredible redemptive risks. And I'm cheering you on. Let's go. Matt says it reminds me of the Whitney Houston song, I didn't know my own strength. Man, that's so good. I hope some of you guys will take that with you tonight. All right, we're almost done. Last question. What is your next redemptive risk? What is that thing that you know exactly what you need to do? And you're afraid to do it, but you're gonna do it anyway. Drew says, my redemptive risk is initiating sexual intimacy with my wife for this weekend. Brother, however she responds, I celebrate that risk. I celebrate that integrity. Ben says, I want to meet more guys at the gym so that they become human and even friends. That helps me to not objectify what a redemptive risk. I love that. Desexualizing those thoughts and feelings. Matt says, sharing more of my story with the men at my church. Every single step is giant. There are no baby steps. You guys are rocking it. I'm so excited to hear this. If you have taken a redemptive risk or you're planning to take one, please let me know in the husband material community so that all of us can celebrate with you and spur one another on. Because no matter what the outcome is, doesn't change who you are. You are God's beloved son. In you, he is well pleased.