SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go. Thank you for listening to my interview with Sathea Sam, who is just a wonderful man. Every time I hear him talk, I am just amazed at the wisdom that flows from him. He is the author of The Last Relapse: Realize Your Potential, Reclaim Intimacy, and Resolve the Roots of Porn Addiction. And today we have a wonderful conversation about three levels of freedom, what it looks like to find purpose and how that drives long-term freedom from porn, and why connection with other human beings is more important than ever. I had fun with Cynthia and I hope you have fun listening. Enjoy the episode. Today I have the pleasure of hanging out with the author of The Last Relapse, the founder of Deep Clean, and my personal friend Cathya Sam. Welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03

What's up, man? You and I've been talking a bunch off camera, so we just get to keep the conversation going. It's going to be fun.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10

And you were one of the very first guests on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14

That's right. I forgot about that. That was fun. I was in my little dinky apartment back then.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19

And this Yeah, it's really cool to see how far we have both come. And so I'm excited to hear more about what you have been learning and what you have been teaching lately. Cathia, why are you passionate about this work of helping men get free from porn?

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

I think when I started, when you and I first met, I was sort of in the I quit porn, I figured it out, I finally figured it out, guys. You know, let me let me help you figure this out as well. It was really that zeal of just, oh my goodness, this is actually possible. I I was pretty sure it was possible, but it was still all theory until you know I eventually was walking in. At that time, it was three years about cleanup pornography. What kind of has happened since then, probably around two or three years, you know, and you and I have talked about this off-camera, off-interview, is like running a business in general is hard. I think running a business in our space is exceptionally challenging in a lot of different regards. Just having days that that year where I thought maybe I will just not do this anymore. Maybe I'll quit. And I had the Holy Spirit like kind of tap me on my shoulder and be like, hey, don't forget about the guys, right? Like, this isn't actually about you. And I was looking at the guys, and it was a string. It wasn't, it wasn't like immediate, but probably just over a few months. There were a couple of really powerful stories that came out of our community of guys not just quitting porn, but finding purpose. You know, like a guy started a business. There's a guy who got involved in his church again after kind of being on hiatus. And so I I kind of realized, oh yeah, that's actually that's what we're doing here. Like, you don't set people free so that they can say I'm free. You set people free so that they can fly. And the places that these guys fly is just incredible. And that's been real good fuel for the fire the last couple of years of just staying on this path and trying to grow and scale and reach more people and change more guys. And we kind of have this adage now in our community like change the man, change the world, to kind of symbolize that that is actually what's happening. You know, what we facilitate is that interchange within the man, but make no mistake, and what happens in husband material as well, like you change on the inside so that you can then go make the world a better place, and that is what makes this whole thing worthwhile for me.

SPEAKER_00: 3:36

Right. There are so many ripple effects that you and I will never see. Yeah. Yeah. Marriages, families, communities, generations. Generations, yeah. And I so resonate with having thoughts of giving up or just quitting the ministry sometimes. Yeah. But when I think about the guys and when I look into their eyes, can't go back.

SPEAKER_01: 4:05

No. No. I was talking with somebody about this yesterday, and it's somebody who's very passionate about our work. He's been through the program, he really liked his experience, and he was upset at the lack of scale. Um, and he was specifically, he's a businessman, so he's kind of looking at what we've done, and he's like, you know, I was watching your YouTube channel, and like, I don't get how millions of people aren't watching this stuff. And I'm like, dude, right? You know, we kind of have that conversation. And he said something that really struck me, and I think you would agree with this. He's like, I don't think people realize that some that this is actually life and death. This guy did our program, and about five months in, he, you know, he was kind of half committed and wasn't able, we just wasn't getting the results he wanted, wasn't getting the outcome. Bunch of things were going wrong in his life. He kind of joined the program because a girl dumped him, and so he was doing the program to get the girl back, which you and I know is never really the right reason to do what we do. And dude, five months into our program, he's got a gun with a bullet in it to his head, and he's like, I had I had the my finger on the trigger and I saw the deep clean forgiveness script. And as I have this, the gun to my head, I'm forgiving people, I'm forgiving myself, I'm forgiving, you know, and he's like, and he's like, dude, he's like, my life has not been the same since that moment. And and he starts talking about you know, all the ways that his life has changed and whatever else. And I just like, oh, this thing's this is actually life and death. That's not a dramatic statement at all. This guy is literally living proof that like what what we're doing is so important, and anyways, it just it just drove it home. It's something I've really been thinking about lately. The other layer to this is, you know, maybe most clients aren't aren't at that place of they're thinking about ending their life, but there's an eternal battle going on here, and there's there's still a fight for our souls. And a lot of people who you know have pornography in their lives, if maybe they're not dying physically, but they're dying on the inside. So I just think again, it's it's so critical, it's so important. And the one thing that is nice since you and I first started compared to now is I do think the world in some ways is actually a lot more aware of it. Like I remember when I told people I was starting Deep Clean and everyone was like, Yeah, good luck, man. You know, hope that works out for you. It was kind of like that, you know, like what an uncomfortable subject, and that'll never work. And I feel like we owe a lot to people like you, actually, because I feel like you've really championed the subject and really have just said, like, hey, it's it's okay, you know, you've been so vulnerable about your struggle. You just championed something really special. And I think I think a lot of the world is waking up. Like fitness podcasts want to talk about this stuff now, you know, and just there's places where this conversation wasn't happening six, seven years ago that it is now, and and people are waking up, which is which is cool to see. It's not all doom and gloom, you know. People, there's there's some good things happening too.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

Yeah, praise God. You talked about the eternal battle here, and that reminds me of three levels of freedom: eternal, internal, and external.

SPEAKER_01: 7:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

What are those three levels?

SPEAKER_01: 7:06

Okay, so this is kind of the the backbone of Deep Clean and what we've built. And actually, part of it ties into the story I shared at the beginning, which I don't normally share, but I had a realization a few years in that this is not really about helping guys quit porn or outgrow porn. I love the language you use there. It's really about helping guys become everything that God has made them to be. And we just have to get pornography out of the way so that they can do that unchained, right? So the the freedom ladder is what we call it. It's three levels of freedom, because I believe that man can experience freedom in in these three or all three arenas, and that's when he's at his best. And the three arenas are the the eternal, the internal, and the external. And so I think in the Christian world, you know, we understand eternal freedom. That's the most important freedom, and there's nothing like having your salvation and knowing that we get to spend eternity with Christ. I think if you kind of maybe expand the Christian world a little bit, I've been in a lot of like Christian business circles and personal development circles, and a lot of them will talk about eternal freedom, which is great, and they'll talk about external freedom, you know, whether that's financial means or with your time or purpose or just some sort of evolution that is external and visible. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But how many people have we seen that have these awesome platforms? They've built successful organizations, they go to the gym, like externally they have everything, and then they have a moral failure, they have infidelity, their marriage leads to divorce. Something, something combusts internally, and that's because they miss that second rung of the ladder, that internal freedom that kind of ties everything together. And so the thing that Deep Clean is built on is uh obviously eternal freedom, that's uh everyone's foundation in this battle. But the second is internal freedom first, then external freedom. That framework has been really helpful to just give some language to what we see happening, guys, which is they quit pornography going through DeepClean and then they go and do incredible things. And we're actually working on a second division in the company. I I don't have a timeline for the rollout, something that is sort of a phase two. Once you quit pornography, here's sort of a way to take things to the next level. Because I have people reaching out to me now being like, hey, I love what you built at DeepClean. You helped me quit pornography. I don't need to keep doing the quit porn stuff, but what else can I do to keep keep the journey going? And so we're surveying clients when they finish with us now. We're trying to figure out where they want more help. We've been doing that for a while. We have some pretty good data to build sort of that second installment. There's more work to be done, right, beyond just quitting pornography.

SPEAKER_00: 9:37

Yeah. And there's so much more than just waiting for eternity.

SPEAKER_01: 9:45

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 9:46

I love that image of getting free so that we can fly. It's so cool to think about what that could look like for each of us. At the end of Husband Material Academy, we have people finish the course with a creative capstone. People have written songs, they've filmed themselves dancing, including me. I did an interpretive dance.

SPEAKER_01: 10:05

Hey, let's go.

SPEAKER_00: 10:07

One guy made food, one guy did like a video montage, one guy like carved something. We've got artists, and they're all expressing something that's unique to them. And I'm like, man, these guys are flying. They're not just putting something away, you know, they're stepping into their unique God identity.

SPEAKER_01: 10:31

Yeah. And I think I think even in recovery, like it recovery work is heavy, right? It's it's got an intensity to it. And I think it's so important that that guys don't lose sight of the fact that, hey, number one, this is for a season. You know, you're you you don't do the deep, intense recovery work every day for the rest of your life. But number two, like if this is done well, it it actually catapults you into some really beautiful things. And I even think of what you and I are doing. I remember I wrote you replied to one of my newsletters probably like four years ago now. But my wife and I had moved to Jamaica for a little bit, and I had done a newsletter about taking risks and kind of like that utopia. Because I I was in a season of my life where I had I just quit my job to do deep clean full-time. We moved to Jamaica, and I talked about how moving to Jamaica was really I was talking about a lot with my audience, not to be like, hey, everybody needs to move to tropical paradise because this is the best thing ever, but just to illustrate this is what freedom is actually about. It's it's about having options in your life. It means that the next time you're tempted, your your only option isn't to watch pornography. You have another option. You can regulate, you can breathe, you can go for a walk, you can SOS your friend. You know, it and and it that whole concept expands to everything. You can have freedom in your purpose and everything else. And I don't know if you remember this, but I asked a question at the end of the newsletter and I said, you know, what's your Jamaica? What's the thing that you're going after, your place of freedom? And you wrote me back and you said, I'm living in my Jamaica right now. Husband material is exactly where I want to be. I don't envision myself doing anything different. I love the guys I'm working with. I love that I get to do this. And I I it really struck me. Like I still remember it. I don't remember a lot of the responses I get to our newsletters, but I remember that one because I think that's what it's about. Like your story is such a great example of, you know, you did a lot of hard work to quit pornography, to outgrow pornography. And now look at you like the level of freedom you have in your sense of purpose and what you built in husband material and everything just continues to grow and evolve because of that. And that's what we want for our clients as well. That's what we want for people at Deep Clean to exactly. It's just to fly, you know, not just to not just to check the box and say, you know, I quit pornography and I can volunteer in church again. Like that is so amazing. But this thing compounds and it it evolves and develops over time. That's the beautiful part of this.

SPEAKER_00: 12:46

It is beautiful. And by the way, I don't plan on stopping anytime soon. I'm still completely in love with this work. Oh, yeah. Do you remember that response? Do you remember doing that? No, but it sounds spot on. I mean, that's been one of the challenges for me. Try to get help with the business. They'll say, Well, you know, what do you want? What are your goals? And I'm like, my dreams have come true. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. You've been talking more lately about how purpose and calling are essential for long-term freedom. And Jay Stringer's research showed that like men without a sense of purpose are seven times more likely to use porn. And yet this is an area where so many guys just feel stuck. Like, where do I start? How does discovering your purpose help you? And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01: 13:35

There's lots of research now that just shows that people who have purpose and meaning in life generally don't gravitate towards things like pornography, maybe at all, or certainly as much. So I think it's a big deal. I think that it's a complicated question. Like maybe the number one question that I got as a pastor is what is my purpose? You know, and how do I step into my purpose and know what it is? But I would say, you know, when you don't know your purpose, it's it's actually hard to really experience true freedom. It's one thing to be free from something, which is a lot of the work we focus on. But when we're talking about purpose, that's about getting free towards something. And you need both. You know, you do need to get rid of those things that entangle those things that are weighing you down. But purpose is the thing that that catapults you forward. And the beautiful thing about purpose, and this is incredibly biblical, is it doesn't have to be starting a husband material or a deep lean. You don't need to start a podcast and build a platform around what you've gone through. It doesn't have to be public, it doesn't have to be even grandiose. It just has to be something bigger than you. That's really all it needs to start with. And maybe it just means that you show up at home and you're really present with your kids and your wife. That honestly might be it. And you know, you work your job and your job is great. And maybe it's not the dream job, but it's it's getting things done, but you can be a great father at home. Dude, do do that. Do it with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. There's nothing wrong with that. For people that are, you know, really stuck on the purpose thing. We have a little bit of a framework, which is, and again, this is some of the stuff that we're gonna we're gonna be releasing a bit later on. But purpose really is comprised of three macronutrients it's calling, which is the spiritual, skills, which is the practical, and passion, which is the psychological. And I think when you merge those three things together, I think that's where man really finds his purpose. So that's uh again, it's a little bit of a nutshell overview, but those are some of the things that I think are really powerful.

SPEAKER_00: 15:39

I like how you've laid that out because when we even say the word purpose, it's like, well, what are we really talking about here? Because when some people hear purpose, they think career or maybe even like ministry. Yet our first calling is spiritual, it's to the Lord Himself. Yeah. You know, before we do anything, our calling is just to be his beloved sons. And then those other two, the skill and the passion are like how we live that out.

SPEAKER_01: 16:12

Exactly. I mean, I witnessed a lot over the years. I mean, I've been in very different church circles. You know, God's just like I started off in a very kind of united Methodist to Reform to Charismatic Pentecostal, and you know, I feel like I feel like I'm just a mishmash where I am now. And I've witnessed very different versions of this. It's part of what inspired the framework because I think the spiritual calling or the sense that God's calling you to something, I think a lot of people understand that. Whether you've experienced it or not, I think people at least get it to some degree. But then I saw a lot of people who were passionate about something, then they felt a call to it, but then they didn't really have the skills or they weren't willing to develop the skills that were required to really drive that thing forward. And so you end up kind of like on a two-legged stool that actually needs a third leg to be properly stable. And on the flip side, there's also people who have kind of the golden handcuffs, as it were, where they're going in a direction they feel like they're supposed to. They maybe use utilize some of their skills, but whether the container is not right or the environment's not right, or it's just not the right opportunity, there's no passion for what they're doing. And it ends up being, you know, really draining. And again, just not quite that that true sense of purpose, and that what I'm doing is actually giving me life. Again, this a it's a great way to evolve that journey post-pornography.

SPEAKER_00: 17:27

Totally. And we want a purpose that is sustainable, not one in which we burn out or get drained and triggered to relapse. Although I think there's also a piece of coming under potential spiritual attack while we are pursuing our purpose too. Yeah. We can expect opposition and maybe things will get harder for a season. Have you experienced that with husband material? Like clockwork, I experience that. Every time we're launching something new, something that could make a big difference, the storms come exactly on time. Whether it's a string of sexual inappropriate behavior in our community, or something that I've done that creates a big mess, or something that another leader has done, or even losing our retreat center the night before our very first retreat.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

Remember that story.

SPEAKER_00: 18:32

Yeah, it's been something that I've come to expect that living with purpose and taking redemptive risks is so life-giving and also it's rugged and it's vulnerable. And you and I have talked about some of the heartache and some of the discouragement that we've often felt while trying to step out and help guys more broadly.

SPEAKER_01: 18:59

Yeah, it's uh it's challenging for sure. And I I was just thinking about like if the enemy can't attack you in what you're doing specifically, if he can't create chaos in the endeavor, then he creates chaos at home. You know, like I remember I was working on the book, The Last Relapse, and I heard like a bang in my shower in the bath. It was just the it was the door across the hall from my office, and my my wife went into like a full-blown panic attack, you know, while I'm working on my book. And that starts to happen more regularly throughout the writing of of that book. It was it was a wild season and there was lots of things going on, but everything kind of just came to a peak at that time, you know. So yeah, there is a there is a vulnerability and there is a sticking your neck out. Uh, but it's interesting, you know, because in keeping with that the purpose conversation, I think the purpose comes first typically before the pain, right? You you get you say, Yes, Lord, I'm gonna go help guys quit pornography. Yes, Lord, I'm gonna go start that business. Yes, Lord, I'm gonna go ask that girl out, you know, whatever it is. And the pain comes later. You know, I think I think God God knows what he's doing. You know, he he gets he gets us committed. And I think that thing that we commit to, you know, assuming that it's something we're passionate about, he's calling us to it, those are the things that really keep us committed and anchored in those seasons where it is difficult or challenging, and you know, your your family's getting attacked or your business or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00: 20:24

So, Sophia, as a pioneer in this field, someone who's creating and leading and pressing into what's next, what do you see as really important in the next few years and in where this recovery movement is going?

SPEAKER_01: 20:40

I've just been observing in you know, DMs on Instagram, the emails we're getting in, you know, wherever it is, people I think are really looking for real connection more than ever before. Because in the online world now, it's very difficult to tell what is AI and what's not. I mean, you know, maybe the videos you can tell, like, okay, that's got an AI feel to it. But this is the worst that AI will ever be, right? So two years from now, five years from now, where are things going to be? I don't know, but probably beyond anything we could really imagine. And I think that the desire and the need for human interaction, digital, uh, and definitely in person, is going to skyrocket. It's already there. We're all very aware. Social media, it's kind of this pseudo-connection. It's not real, but we all kind of settle for it anyway. But I think there's going to become a huge revolt, and people are really going to be looking for communities online, places they can plug in, have authentic conversations, talk to other people that they know are people and not a bot, not some AI generated piece of material, but I'm actually getting real authentic stuff. I think that's the direction our world is going in. So for me, that's when I think about the recovery space, I just think we need to keep building on that adage that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection and really making sure that we're creating. As many environments as possible for that to happen. So, like one thing we launched this year, we call it Deep Clean Inner Circle. For people that are familiar with you, it'd be very similar to Osman Material Academy, trying to create that community, that environment that that comes with a cost. There's a there's a free version of it as well, just to give people a chance to plug in a community wherever it might be. But ultimately, I just believe that something like Deep Clean Inner Circle, where guys can get community, they can get camaraderie, they can see, okay, there's somebody else, there's there's Joe in Nebraska, you know, there's Phil in Florida or who wherever it is who's you know on the same journey with me. And he's a real person. I can read his profile, I can see his commentary, I can see him on a group call. I think that has never been more valuable. And I think it's also to kind of use the same statement I used about AI, I think it's the least valuable it will ever be. I think in the days ahead, these kinds of communities are gonna be just very, very significant, not just to quit pornography, but actually just for our overall mental health and general well-being. I think it's gonna be so, so important.

SPEAKER_00: 23:02

Yeah. For any man, for any living, breathing, embodied human to have friends, like to have community. It reminds me of the comment that maybe the biggest miracle Jesus ever did is to have 12 friends in his 30s.

SPEAKER_01: 23:23

I think it's something I didn't know about the 30s is how how challenging it is to have to build those friendships. And it's funny, I was with my ops guy, his name is Oscar. We were at a baseball game and I was talking about this with him, and there was a couple beside us, and I guess they couldn't help it over here. And they said, Hey, how old are your kids? Yeah, just like out of nowhere. We weren't talking with them. They said, How old are your kids? And I said, Oh, two, and you know, I have a I have a newborn. They said, Oh, just it gets better. Wait till they're they're in school, you'll build friends again, you'll have community again. It's just it's just a little bit difficult in this season. So I was like, Oh, thanks so much. I'm gonna take that. So I think that I think again, that those realities are there, but I do think the digital world necessitates some more human interaction.

SPEAKER_00: 24:04

Yeah. And maybe husband material is not the best fit for somebody. Go to Deep Clean. Check out the inner circle, check out some of the other communities. Like we're collaborating more than ever, and we need to because I think the enemy's strategy is to divide and conquer. If you dabble in some of these different communities and you decide you want to join their program, awesome. Check out the links in the show notes. If you want to check out Deep Clean Inner Circle, also Cynthia's book, The Last Relapse.

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

The one thing that I think has been really special about even just the camaraderie between Deep Clean and Husband Material is you and I are we're very non-competitive with each other. And we've also sent guys over to Husband Material to say, hey, if you didn't like what you got here or this didn't feel like quite the right match, what Drew and his community are doing are phenomenal. We used to have an automation set up, even to talk about the community. I mean, people couldn't afford something and they just wanted a free community. Husband Material was kind of the thing that we would just we'd plug that in. Because I really believe, and this is something that's really unfortunate. Like we're in very politically charged times right now. It's very polarizing. People are kind of you know going into camps and it's very adversarial. The reality is our diversity in our beliefs, in our offerings, in the program systems. There's so much strength in that diversity. I was listening to a podcast, it's it's called Psychiatry and Psychology. It's by a guy named Dr. David Pewter. He's a very reputable psychiatrist. And he had this guy come on and they were talking about just all the different modalities and methodologies that have emerged out of psychotherapy over the last 30 years. And they did an assessment of them and they found that psychotherapy practices today are basically just as effective as they were back, you know, 30 years ago or whatever the time distance was. You know, which is a little, you kind of hear that and you go, no, wait, we must have gotten a little bit better. And he said, Well, yeah, he said, we did actually get better, but he said specifically what we got better at was creating modalities and methods that reach more people. And so somebody may not want to do EMDR, but they'll go do a equine therapy because they're like, oh, I'll hang out with horses, no problem. And you know, and obviously there's more education, so more people are getting into it. And so he wasn't saying that, you know, we're we're we're bad, we're just as effective as we were before. We're way more effective because we can reach more people, because we're educating them more, but also there's a diversity of what you can experience. And that diversity has added so much strength to our society. And so I feel the same way. Like, again, I I don't know how many porn recovery coaches I really knew in 2019 other than Drew Boa, Frank Rich. I think maybe Sean. Sean and I got connected there as well when Sean was starting Secret Habit. But I probably have two to three guys reach out to me per month now on Instagram or Facebook or somewhere saying, Hey, I'm starting a community, hey, I'm starting an app, hey, I'm starting a coaching practice helping guys quit porn. You know, what do you recommend? There's so many now, I like I can't even keep up with all of them. And again, to me, those that's a beautiful thing about that, because it means those guys are probably gonna reach people I'll never reach. And that means we get to serve more people and more men's lives get changed that are gonna go make the world a better place. So praise God. Praise God. We celebrate that.

SPEAKER_00: 27:15

Some of you guys probably don't know that Henry Brown, who is our chief operations officer, first went through Deep Clean before he came to Husband Material.

SPEAKER_01: 27:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 27:25

And Sean Bonato, one one of your head coaches, was a husband material coach before he joined your team.

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

So there's a lot of overlap here. I strongly recommend Deep Clean. Go check out Satya's resources. Satya, what is your favorite thing about continuing to grow and heal and learn in this area?

SPEAKER_01: 27:48

I think it's two things. Like the first thing is that you you never forget, like, you know, it's been almost 10 years, and there's all I'm sure there's some things I forget about what it was like to struggle and and all that. But it's really fun working with guys in this, in this journey because somebody says something, and I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that. I remember that feeling, you know, I remember that struggle, I remember that victory, you know, that discovery. So I think it's really fun to just constantly be reminded of what God did, you know, and some really difficult moments and challenges and some really amazing breakthroughs. And uh, I think the other thing for me is it just never gets old to be married and to not have this as part of the marriage. My wife and I switched churches about three-ish years ago, and we were very involved in the previous church, you know, active on the worship team, and I was on staff there, and Shalomo actually was you know an intern there at one point, and so very well known. And when we were at this new church, we just really enjoyed sitting in the back, not being involved, not having a stage presence. We kind of did that for about two years, and then eventually, you know, people start to find out about what we do and what we're up to, and we plug into the worship team now and we love it. But with people understanding more about Deep Clean and what I do, we hear a lot more stories. You know, a lot more couples come to us and talk about the challenges they're going through and all that. And obviously, we see it in our clients in Deep Clean as well. And for me, I'm I just I'm very grateful that our marriage is where it is at. And not just because it's been free of porn, but this is something I really emphasize with our guys is this is not just about you going through a euphoric experience. Deep Clean is not meant to be just a bunch of hype, you know, it's not meant to be a bunch of like feel-good experiences. We're trying to build skills that last well beyond your duration with us because skills can stand the test of time. And whether you go on and you know, you do a completely different thing, you move across the country, you change careers, you have more kids, you know, those skills are gonna are gonna survive that. They're gonna at least give you a fighting chance to do it. And so for me, just the skills that I learned in recovery have strengthened my marriage so much. And we've gone through a lot of big life changes with kids and you know, moves and all that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I think those are the parts for me that I just cherish the most in this stage this season.

SPEAKER_00: 30:01

Beautiful. Thanks so much for being with us again. Always a pleasure, man. I love being on here. Thanks, Sathia. Everyone, thanks for listening. And don't forget to check out Satya's podcast, The Man Within, which is actually four episodes a week. If you want to go over to The Man Within, check it out. And always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.