SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Chris and men outgrow pork. Why? You can take your breath, fill your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Ruboa, and I'm here to go. Let's go. Today's episode, K-pop Demon Hunters, a story of hiding and healing, is the longest ever episode of Hudson Material and one that is so worth listening to. K-pop Demon Hunters is a movie that came out this past year with incredible popularity and also incredible depth and value for men in sexual recovery. In this episode, my friend Andy and I are going to explore the main themes of the movie, which involve shame, hiding, and healing through vulnerability and connection. Some of you may have concerns about the film, which we will address right away. Then Andy will lead us in an in-depth analysis of the film, and we will constantly be coming back to lessons that we can take away for our journey of outgrowing porn, as well as connections with our Christian faith. In the end, you'll get a very clear picture of each character taking a redemptive journey and how that can inspire us to choose hope, to reject shame, and to continue on this incredible healing adventure. Enjoy the episode. Today we have a special fun episode with my friend Andy, who is actually my former housemate, college rock bandmate, and Christian Camp co-counselor. We've had a lot of experiences together, and he's been involved in Husband Material, which has been such a gift, and some of you already know him. Andy, welcome to the show. Thanks, Drew. Andy has even staffed and co-led one of the breakout sessions at the most recent Husband Material retreat. Andy, it's so sweet for me to get to partner with you in that way. What has your experience been with Husband Material?

SPEAKER_02: 2:16

I got involved in Husband Material in 2023, beginning with a virtual retreat and then connecting more deeply with you and joining a small group, going through the small group experience alongside the Husband Material Academy lessons, and starting to attend the in-person retreats. And all of those experiences have been really impactful for me. I cherish the connections I've made, the experiences I've had. Happy to be a part of the Husband Material community.

SPEAKER_01: 2:49

Thanks for giving back and using your voice, which is the theme of K-pop Demon Hunters, finding your voice to talk about this movie.

SPEAKER_02: 2:57

K-pop, for those who don't know, is Korean pop music. It is a genre of music that has exploded in worldwide popularity, I'm not sure exactly when, like over a decade ago. I don't know a lot about it, except that fans of K-pop can be very passionate, very passionate about the music and also the personalities and stars, the celebrities of the K-pop bands, usually boy bands and girl bands.

SPEAKER_01: 3:28

Now, before we get into the film, we really need to talk about some of the concerns that people may have, especially theologically, maybe some of the triggers involved. Andy, what were some of your hesitations about the movie?

SPEAKER_02: 3:44

Yeah, so it's got demons in the title. That was a hesitation. K-pop, that's a hesitation because I didn't know anything about K-pop before watching this movie. I mean, I knew of it, I knew that it existed, but I'm not a K-pop listener. And just the idea of demon hunters and a kids movie or a kid family-friendly movie, that was confusing. But my daughters had already seen it so before I knew what it was. So I had to watch it to see what they are watching. And I can say, after watching this movie, being someone who has degrees in biblical studies and theology and Christian ministry, if you know me, you know that I'm a very analytical thinker and dissect things. Yes. I want to assure listeners that who are concerned about these that this movie is not demonic, that neither evil nor sin are ever glorified or encouraged in this movie, but in fact, quite the opposite. Evil is portrayed in a way that is very consistent with evil in scripture and in Christian theology. And I think that there's a lot of connectivity between our faith and the themes and portrayals in this movie, even though many of the regular demons in this movie are more cartoonish creatures. The word demon actually takes on a variety of meanings throughout the movie. It's referenced in song lyrics and things in different ways. Things like, for example, we listened to the demons, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 5:23

I also heard someone say that the concept of demons in Korean culture and mythology is different than the concept in the Judeo-Christian worldview and what we see in the New Testament. They're more like monsters. And while for some that may be a concern that demons are being depicted in this way, I don't think we should let that prevent us from engaging with the content. And in the movie, there's at least one human who becomes a demon. And that does not happen in scripture.

SPEAKER_02: 6:02

The movie is a little unclear and kind of plays fast and loose with the rules of what is a demon. And I think that they just serve a story purpose in this movie. Their art style is styled after Korean folklore, an area that I don't know anything about. They don't look very much like demons in Christian theology or scripture, which we don't really get visual depictions of in the Bible. But the focus is really on their leader, their master. And their master, the sometimes he's called the demon king, he really doesn't seem to be one of them. He really seems to be this force, this evil person who has enslaved all of them. And his goal is to enslave and consume people. And the way he does that very much reflects the tactics of evil, of Satan, of the serpent throughout the whole biblical narrative and in Christian theology, which I will say more on as we get into the story. I can say that I have personally observed this movie contributing positively to my daughter's spiritual formation. My oldest daughter has made connections between how sin or Satan operates in Bible stories that she knows. There have been times where she has, I've noticed her feeling ashamed of herself for one reason or another. And I've asked her is that the voice of Gima? And I've seen like a light bulb go off. And then we're always connecting it to Jesus as well. So this has been a positive contribution to my daughter's faith formation, and I see the gospel truths shining in this movie.

SPEAKER_01: 7:57

Absolutely. And we will make the case that this movie can also contribute positively to your sexual recovery. And I feel that very deeply.

SPEAKER_02: 8:09

Before we dive deeper, here's a brief summary of what is K-pop Demon Hunters with only very mild spoilers. K-pop Demon Hunters is a 90-minute animated movie about a trio of musical pop stars called Hunterx, who are tasked with defending the world from cartoonish Korean folk demons by singing songs that inspire and affect their audience in a way that strengthens a magical barrier, protecting the world from these demons. The demons are led by a big talking flame called Gima. He is a personification of evil, and his goal is to weaponize shame in order to enslave and consume people. Gima sends a group of his minions, disguised as a rival K-pop boy band, to sing and spread messages of self-indulgence and shame. Meanwhile, the protagonist and lead singer of Hunter's, named Rumi, wrestles with keeping hidden a shameful secret about herself that not even her co-stars and closest friends know about. Managing this secret affects Rumi's singing voice and becomes the focal point of the movie's plot conflict. Throughout the movie, we see that every character has parts of themselves they feel they need to keep hidden from everyone. How these developed during their childhoods, and how only through vulnerably opening up to one another about the things they feel ashamed of can they experience real healing, love, forgiveness, belonging, freedom, and rest.

SPEAKER_01: 9:53

So good. And there is so much overlap between what you just said and what husband material is all about. And what sexual recovery and outgrowing porn is all about.

SPEAKER_02: 10:05

Yes. K-pop Demon Hunters invites viewers to join its characters into stepping into vulnerability with safe people and together facing all parts of ourselves with compassion and curiosity. And I think we can highlight those throughout the movie as we talk about it.

SPEAKER_00: 10:23

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01: 10:24

I'm particularly excited to have you on this show talking about a movie which has captured both of our imaginations and has so many lessons for us to learn. And yet it also seems like an unlikely topic for the Husband Material podcast. I'm guessing that some of our listeners will be surprised that we're talking about K-pop demon hunters. It seems like a movie where the target is not necessarily adult men, much less adult Christian men. And at the same time, after I watched it, I thought, wow. Why are you passionate about this movie?

SPEAKER_02: 11:13

My daughters took some time to persuade me to watch it with them. I, like many, was a little confused and hesitant and unsure what to think of it. But anything that my daughters are are into, I want to share their world with them. So that brought me to the table. And then the music and the story just sucked me in. And as I was watching it, I was just all these connections were firing for me about trauma and healing and shame and recovery. And portrayed in this package that was just really well-crafted and beautiful. And a little bit on more of why we recommend this movie, unlike many Hollywood movies, K-pop Demon Hunters is not about accepting those parts of ourselves in a way that leaves them exactly as they are. On the contrary, in the exposure, compassion, curiosity, and healing, those parts become unburdened and transformed into parts that turn from creating problems to healthy integrating with the rest of themselves. And I think that is a picture of what the processes in Hazm material look like.

SPEAKER_01: 12:29

It's a great movie for anyone who loves IFS, internal family systems, parts work, even inner child work, and we'll talk about that more. And overall, just this painful and powerful process of choosing to be seen and known with the parts that we don't like about ourselves or that we're afraid for other people to see. Andy, why do you recommend this movie?

SPEAKER_02: 12:57

I recommend K-pop Demon Hunters because I think it's a nuanced and layered exploration of the ways that shame, past trauma, and burdensome coping mechanisms can manifest in our lives, and how risking curiosity, compassion, vulnerability, and mutual care can bring about and spread healing in a way that I think is compatible with, if not directly inspired by, the gospel of Jesus. As it this movie features Christian ideas such as true to life, voice of shame, the theme of bringing darkness into light comes in over and over and over again. I think that this is actually really appropriate for like Advent and Christmas time right now, with the themes of light and darkness. And even one of the characters makes a Christ-like sacrifice. So this resonates both with the Christian faith and with as packaged in a way that I think is just accessible to all kinds of people, including those of us in recovery. I also recommend this movie because it's just so well crafted. I have to just mention briefly that like the animation design from the same studio that created Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse and Across the Spider-Verse, which are movies that I love and highly recommend. It features extremely well-written and performed songs that fully deserve all the acclaim that they've received. They're super popular for good reason. It's just really well-written music. I also think it's got healthy expressions of gender, female empowerment, and masculinity to top it off.

SPEAKER_01: 14:32

Agreed. And it also has some triggers. So you should be aware if you're going to watch this movie that there are sexualized portrayals of the boy band members in particular. One of them is called Abby because he has like six-pack abs, and we see the members of Huntrix looking at the bodies of these boys. I think this would be a particular trigger for our listeners who are sexually attracted to men who are watching members of Hun Trix be like drooling over the different boys in the band. So it's interesting to me how the boy band, the Saja boys, have a lot in common with porn, and perhaps maybe even particular gay porn. So you should be aware of that. And also be aware that there are a couple scenes that take place in a Korean bathhouse. Now, no nudity takes place in the bathhouse, and yet that could also be a trigger for people to remember experiences they may have had in that type of setting.

SPEAKER_02: 15:57

They're played for jokes in some ways, but they're also getting at the heart of what this rival boy band that's got malicious intentions is out to do, which is to use indulgence and lust and consumption to draw people in and addict them.

SPEAKER_01: 16:20

And this is an animated film. So anyone who has historically accessed genres of porn that are animated or especially hentai or other sexualized similar portrayals, this might be triggering for you too. And I think some people are just going to be feeling disturbed at the sight of evil or demons in general. Andy, are you ready for the in-depth summary? As ready as I'm going to be. It's time to go into the details.

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

This is going to be full spoilers. If you haven't seen it, this is your last chance to go watch the movie and then come back because we're going to fully spoil everything and just talk about everything.

SPEAKER_01: 17:10

Let's go.

SPEAKER_02: 17:11

The movie opens with a prologue just kind of explaining, showing us the history of these generations of these singers who are protecting the world from demons with their songs. Like the power of these songs is from people connecting with them and being inspired in it, like spreading. That's what like creates the barrier. The barrier, in a way, is like a culture, like cultural shared experience that is keeping at bay these malicious powers.

SPEAKER_01: 17:44

And that's really fascinating. It's their connection and their community that shields them against evil and the voice of shame.

SPEAKER_02: 17:52

The prologue is narrated by our protagonist Rumi's aunt, who was part of one of these bands alongside her Rumi's mother.

SPEAKER_01: 18:03

Rumi's aunt is Celine. Celine is the one who is raising Rumi from when she's a young girl.

SPEAKER_02: 18:22

That victory is within your reach. It is your voices, your song, that will create the golden Han Moon. Han Moon is the name of this barrier that they're working to strengthen. That protects them against the demons. Right. And it their goal is to achieve a new level of barrier of turning it gold. That becomes a symbol in this movie. That's what Rumi is so focused on. And she feels the weight of the pressure of that responsibility that she has learned from Celine.

SPEAKER_01: 18:59

There's all this pressure to perform, like the weight of the world is on her shoulders. There's this need to achieve or else. And so many of us can identify with feeling that kind of shame-based performance driving us. And you know, you can achieve a lot that way. And yet, as we start to see, this plan does not work out the way Rumi hopes. Because there's one big problem. You ready for it? Here is the big problem with Rumi's plan. She has uh patterns that are identical to the patterns we see on the demons. And this word patterns has so many layers to it. On the surface level, it's just visual. It's the shapes and the colors on her skin. But as the movie goes along, the word patterns starts to take on new meaning. Because Rumi has these patterns of hiding and keeping this secret. Patterns could be her emotional walls that she has up. Patterns could be her behaviors. Patterns could be what she inherited from the previous generation that gave her these shapes on her skin. And so as we talk about hiding our patterns, I think it can have multiple meanings.

SPEAKER_02: 20:29

At first, when they talk about patterns, they're referring to these physical purple patterns on her skin. They look kind of like tattoos. And they're not all over her whole skin. So she's able to, you know, we're able to see most of her arms, you know, her face, but like there are in parts of her body that are covered in these patterns. And we don't find that out for the first, you know, quarter of the film. Then we find out she considers herself a part demon because she carries these patterns. And I realize that if you listen to the whole movie and think of every time they talk, they use the word patterns, that maybe in addition to this literal meaning with the skin patterns, it might also have a metaphorical meaning for behavior patterns or trigger patterns or all kinds of patterns.

SPEAKER_01: 21:16

And I find it helpful to view the patterns as a part of her. And so when we think about what are the parts of Rumi that she's ashamed of? It's more than just her skin. And as we consider the parts of ourselves that we're ashamed of, it might include sexual behaviors. It might include sexual attractions and arousal patterns that we're ashamed of. It might include all kinds of thoughts and feelings, and maybe even just being ashamed of our bodies physically as well.

SPEAKER_02: 21:53

Rumi is also ashamed of her family, her family background. I think that might resonate with some people. So it takes a physical manifestation, like you mentioned, like being ashamed of part of your body. It's really layered. It can this thing in the movie is not something typically we don't really have in real life. So it becomes this like symbol for the part of us we feel ashamed of and feel we need to keep hidden, and then you can fill that in with anything.

SPEAKER_01: 22:23

Well said. So Rumi's got this secret, and then it starts to affect her voice. The patterns start to spread, they rise up to her neck, and all of a sudden she can't sing.

SPEAKER_02: 22:37

When the band, their band Huntress, releases their new single called Golden, this is their effort to turn the Han Moon Golden. They see a shimmer of it during their concert at the beginning of the movie, and when they release this single and it goes viral all over the world, they're being interviewed in the bridge of the song. This is when we see Rumi by herself longing to be free from this pain, this shame that she's experiencing. She sings that she waited so long to break these walls down, to wake up and feel like me, put these patterns all in the past now and finally live like the girl they all see. No more hiding. I'll be shining like I'm born to be. And it shows that this tension between who she thinks she should be and how people perceive her and how she feels like she actually is. And she thinks that if they can achieve this goal, that her patterns will go away, that she can get rid of this part of herself. And I think that that also connects with healing. Sometimes there's that part of ourself that we feel we need to keep hidden that we just want to reject, that we want to pretend doesn't exist. And we might think that the the path to healing is to cut out that part, remove that part. And so often we find, I think that my one of my big takeaways from my recovery journey is learn understanding that no part of ourselves can we can't get rid of. That's because it's part of us. And so what are we gonna do about that?

SPEAKER_01: 24:23

We need to stop fighting against these parts and start facing these parts. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 24:30

And and which is exactly what this movie is all about when at the end of Golden, Rumi's voice goes out, she cannot sing the high notes anymore. She leaves their rehearsal, runs off on her own, and realizes that the patterns have been spreading across her skin and they're starting to encroach on her throat and her vocal cords. And she begins to panic. She is triggered in this moment, and when she has this trigger, immediately she has flashbacks. She has two flashbacks. First, to her childhood. Immediately, she's a child again. And I think that this is just a great little picture of how every trigger tells a story. And she's singing this song that Celine taught her that goes, We are hunters, voice is strong, slaying demons with our song, fix the world and make it right when darkness finally meets the light. But the irony is that the things that she's kept keeping out of the light are not meeting the light. And she asks Celine, she says, Celine, do hunters kill all demons? And Celine says, Yes. She says, so everything that has patterns, and Celine says, cover those up. You only have those because she's like, because my dad was a demon, and Celine says, You're not one of them, Rumi. You're a hunter like your mother was when the hone moon is sealed. All demons will be gone from this world, and so will your patterns. And it's just solidifying that, like, Rumi is like, Am I part of that? Am I, is there something wrong with me? And Celine's telling her there's nothing wrong with you while also, but with her actions, saying, cover those up, she's communicating on a more deeper level that there is. Then she has another flashback to the early days in Hunterx, where she will not join Mira and Zoe, her her other members of Huntryx, in the bathhouse because that would expose too much of her skin and they would see the marks. And she goes to Celine and she says, Maybe they'll understand. But Celine says, no, Rumi. Nothing can change until your patterns are gone. No one will understand.

SPEAKER_01: 26:56

And there's this line that Celine says Your faults and fears must never be seen. So there's a contradiction. Celina's saying, You're not a demon, you're good. But she's also saying you need to hide, cover up, never let anybody see this part of you. And I think that's how many of us grew up understanding our sexuality. We'll say in church or in family settings that, oh yeah, sex is good. God created it, of course. But then we have all this shame and secrecy and hiding about that part of our lives, as if we can't talk about it and we can't have open conversations about it. And many of us experience that contradiction growing up.

SPEAKER_02: 27:42

It includes our sexuality and our sexual experiences, but it includes all other things too. Maybe things that happened in our family, how this parent was unsafe, this parent was so cold and distant or different, the conflicts going on, and sometimes these other wounds then can become sexualized in our experiences. And so it includes, I think, all of those.

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

So that's why Rumi is so terrified when the patterns are spreading and she might be exposed.

SPEAKER_02: 28:18

She's having to work harder to keep it a secret, even from her closest friends. And she doubles down on her efforts to seal the Han Moon and by trying to fix her voice. And so Zoe, one of her bandmates, who is always full of ideas and always has a need to try to solve every problem as soon as as quickly as possible. She has an idea to go visit an unusual doctor.

SPEAKER_01: 28:48

This is one of my favorite scenes of the film. They go to the doctor wanting to cure Rumi's voice as quickly as possible so that they can get back on tour and get back performing. And the doctor has some amazing sentences that come out of his mouth. I mean, he looks at Rumi and it's kind of funny. He opens his eyes really wide and says, hmm, I see.

SPEAKER_00: 29:16

Then he says, actually, I don't see. You have walls up. And Rumi says, No, I don't have any walls.

SPEAKER_02: 29:22

He says to her, in order to heal a part, we must understand the whole.

SPEAKER_00: 29:28

So good. So amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 29:33

When he says, actually, I don't see. Very strange. You have lots of walls up. Rumi's response is, I'm just trying to stay focused. But he says, focus is good, but focusing on one part leads to ignoring other parts, making you separated, isolated. And then Zoe adds, emotionally closed off, and he says, Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 29:56

So it's this great moment toward the beginning of the film where Rumi is exposed truly in what the real issue is. This is the core. But she's still in performance mode. She's still just trying to achieve this goal that she thinks will make her patterns go away. Whereas if she had listened to the doctor and if they had really become curious about that and open, it could have spared a lot of heartache. They could have started healing a lot earlier.

SPEAKER_02: 30:35

This doctor is kind of like the first beacon of light like exposing things in the movie. And it's very uncomfortable for all three of them because none of them are spared. He immediately after that turns his attention to Zoe and then to Mira, and no one is safe. He approaches each one of them with his giant cartoonish eyes, hmm, and just makes quick observations that just cut right to the things that they hide or are uncomfortable about.

SPEAKER_01: 31:17

Mira is exposed in her aggressive defensiveness, the fight reaction. And then Rumi is hiding, running away, avoiding the truth, which is the flight reaction, the flea reaction. Each of them has a childhood survival mechanism based on fear, which is what we explore in the floss method.

SPEAKER_02: 31:40

That's right. And I like how they weave this all together throughout the movie. In the very beginning, we're introduced to each character and we get a little bit about their childhood background. And then as we follow them into this scene, we see a little exposure of their survival mechanisms and how they're functioning or not functioning well in their lives. And then we're going to trace those throughout the story.

SPEAKER_01: 32:05

I wonder if that moment of vulnerability sets the stage for what happened next when they first encounter the Saja boys, the boy band.

SPEAKER_02: 32:18

The evil demon king, this talking flame, Gima, has sent these minions as this rival boy band. And when they're introduced, and when Huntryx runs into them, they are taken aback at how attractive they are, how tempting they are to look at, to encounter, and then before you know it, they are performing their first song called Soda Pop and capturing the hearts and minds of everyone around them. The members of this group called the Saja Boys are caricatures. One is called Romance. He represents this flirtatious parasocial relationship. One is named Abby. He represents the sexualization of pop stars, celebrities, and idols. One is named Mystery. He's this enigmatic figure, unknowable. Another one is Baby Saja, who represents this infantilization, a common trope in K-pop. And then finally their leader, the charismatic leader, Ginu, who the story will focus on, who is different from the other four members in that he is a three-dimensional character and not a caricature.

SPEAKER_01: 33:29

So the Saja Boys come on the scene. And Andy, when we first started talking about K-pop demon hunters, I was amazed at some of the parallels you drew between the Sajja Boys and online pornography.

SPEAKER_02: 33:44

That's right. Soda Pop features lyrics like I need you to fill me up. You taste so sweet. Every sip makes me want more. And it's this very catchy tune. No one can stop their shoulders from moving to it. But it's really about just glorifying self-indulgence and addiction, addictive things, like I can't get enough of this. Meanwhile, members of the Saja Boys have like physical or metaphorical comparisons with the allure of pornography or sexual behaviors, sexually acting out. But this is presented as for kids, so this is presented in a way that's just this overarching idea of like selfish indulgence and consumption. It reminded me of the Garden of Eden, of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, and and the snake offering them the fruit. In the animation, they literally manifest hearts out of thin air and they go flying and like knock people to the ground. It's very silly and funny, but it's also like touching on the way that things like pornography get at our hearts and our bodies, our imaginations. That's where they sink their tendrils.

SPEAKER_01: 35:04

Right. The scene is playful, it's fun, it's casual, and yet there's a dark side to it. This is all part of a very dark agenda. And taking advantage of people. Like, of course, we were created for play, for fun, to enjoy beauty, to enjoy ourselves. And that's the best part of photopop. But even when we think about the title, like photopop is really bad for you. It's loaded with artificial sugar, and it will kill you in large doses, similar to pornography, which uh is increasingly seemingly normalized as our culture becomes more sexually permissive. And yet underneath the surface, it's consuming us. After this, we see Hunterx wanting to take down the Saja Boys.

SPEAKER_02: 36:07

The members of Hunterx see through the facade and realize that these boy band bears the marks of demons. They must be demons in disguise. And they're a threat that they need to eliminate. What we haven't talked about so far on the episode is that the members of Hunterx wield these magical weapons, and that whenever they make contact with a demon, the demon just vanishes and seems to just be sent back to the underworld. They suit up ready to take down this boy band, but when it comes to it and they're in the battle, they're unable, they're overwhelmed in the fight, and there's an important moment where Rumi has part of her sleeve torn in the fight, and Ginu sees that she has patterns, and he freezes and stops, and it confronts him. Genu, the leader of the boy band, the one who had this whole idea, he said in his deal with Gima, he says that what he wants in return for this is to forget the memories that haunt him. And we're gonna learn about what those are later. He covers up Rumi's sleeve for her. He blocks the other girl's view of Rumi, and this gesture of kindness from an enemy also confuses Rumi. They make it out of this battle, but they have not stopped the Saja boys. In fact, they are getting more popular than ever.

SPEAKER_01: 37:52

When Rumi's sleeve gets cut and Ginu sees her patterns, he covers it up for her and essentially communicates your secrets safe with me. And this was a powerful moment that to me looks a lot like grooming. I think that's the start of Genu gaining Rumi's trust. That's the first thing he does for her that makes it seem like maybe he's not all bad. And of course, he's not all bad. We'll talk about that later. This is a really important distinction. The only difference between grooming for the purpose of sexual abuse and exploitation, and love is the motivation involved. When someone does something special for you, when someone does you a favor, keeps a secret for you, uh it may be out of love or it may be out of the intention to use you. And at this point in the film, Ginu has a mix of both. I think in the way that Ginu develops his relationship with Rumi, maintaining even more secrecy, having a secret relationship with her, we see elements of what predators will do to build trust and start to get to the point where they can fully use another person sexually.

SPEAKER_02: 39:24

That's a very different take. I had not thought of it that way at all. The way I interpreted that moment, Hunterx is his enemy. He's there to stop them. He does not know that Rumi bears these patterns. And when he sees them, he stops attacking. It stops him in his tracks, and his knee-jerk reaction to seeing that is compassion. He sees that and he immediately I think he immediately sees himself in her and does.

SPEAKER_01: 40:04

Except that it does it does I think this is kind of fun that we're uh going back and forth on this because uh while it is an act of kindness, uh that same action can also be used to gain even more power over her. And uh in Ginu we see someone who's deeply conflicted. He uh has that compassion and yet he's also working for this evil power at the same time. Right. As we see later on, Ginu uses Rumi's trust in him to deceive her and to trick her and to lure her into a trap later on.

SPEAKER_02: 40:58

I would be more comfortable with using the term manipulation than abuse for this relationship. I think that he has this moment of kindness and compassion, but then as he reflects on it, he realizes like I can use this to manipulate her. And then we see him make a choice like I'm gonna start manipulating her. But then while he's doing that, he has a change of heart, a gradual change of heart as he is confronted with things that upend his assumptions about the world and about himself. And as he starts to see that things could be different, his motivation for manipulating her erodes. And his compassion and identifying with her, connecting with her, seeing a lot of the same things in himself in her continues to grow until he's ready to abandon the manipulation altogether and completely change course.

SPEAKER_01: 42:02

Yeah, so redemptive.

SPEAKER_02: 42:18

Directly after this scene, Ginu is back in front of Gima, and they talk about this discovery that Rumi bears these marks. And Gima is saying, I don't have control over her. And Ginu reassures Gima, saying, This is good that she has these marks. It means that she has shame, and we can use that against her. I just need to find out what it is, and thus launches his manipulative agenda. The next thing that happens is he sends an invitation to her to meet. And in this invitation, she decides to meet up with him in secret, but she is planning to ambush him with her sword and attack him. He is able to dodge her attacks and have a conversation with her where he makes observations about her patterns and her secrets and her shame, and he draws upon his shared experience to begin this connection in order to manipulate her to try to get her to open up about her shame. At this point, she's not ready to. She shuts him down and she leaves. However, Ginu says to Rumi, I know what it feels like to have those. Rumi says, Feel you're a demon. Demons don't feel anything. He says, Is that what you think? That's all demons do. Feel. Feel our shame, our misery. It's how Gima controls us. Do you not hear him in your ear? He says, What are you talking about? He says, You're lucky. I'll never forget the first time I heard him. And that's when he tells his origin story, but he leaves out the most vulnerable details. He talks about how 400 years ago he made a deal with Gima that ended up costing him his mother and his sister in order to have a life of wealth and prosperity from being poor and desperate.

SPEAKER_01: 44:24

And this is a behind-the-scenes look into how evil uses shame to control us. That's how Gima got to Ginu. That's what keeps Ginu trapped. That's what keeps Rumi trapped, and really establishes that this is how evil works in our lives. Through silence, shame, isolation, that prevents us from healing.

SPEAKER_02: 44:52

Ginu ends this conversation with an invitation to Rumi to open up and share about her shame with him, and she she rejects it. They go their separate ways. And Rumi and Huntryx problem solve what to do about the rising popularity of the Saja boys, who have taken a lot of the spotlight off of Hunter's, and which is weakening their ability to strengthen the hone moon the way that Rumi believes she needs to. We follow Rumi's continued conflicts with Mira and with Zoe, with Mira in particular.

SPEAKER_01: 45:31

And I will add that Mira has this gut instinct and intuition that something is off. Something is not being shared. And she tells that to Rumi's face. Rumi denies it, essentially gaslighting Mira. And then Mira begins to think, I'm going crazy. The problem is with me. And Mira distrusts her very correct instincts. And that's a moment I think that's also significant, where Mira chooses to trust Rumi instead of going with her gut. And her gut was right.

SPEAKER_02: 46:18

Yeah, this brewing conflict between them reaches a zenith in the scene on the train where Rumi has an outburst to try to deflect attention away from her secrets and says to Mira, Not everything is about your insecurities, Mira. After that scene, Zoe and Mira say, We just have to figure out this new song so we can take down Saja Boys. They just turn their backs and walk away. And connection is just completely severed in that moment.

SPEAKER_01: 46:50

The band begins to be more divided. Trust is broken.

SPEAKER_02: 46:54

During this part, Rumi is questioning everything. Everything that she all of her assumptions about quote-unquote demons, all of her preconceived notions about what it means to have patterns or what it means to have shame. She starts wondering if all these demons are victims of Gima's enslavement. And she comes up with an idea, and finally she reaches out back to Ginu and they meet up again. Rumi begins to see parts of herself and her story in Ginu and to empathize and have compassion for Ginu. And in that, she begins to envision a hope that perhaps what will save her could also save Ginu. It's unclear if he's a demon, right? Because he was a person, he was a human who's now enslaved to Gima like a demon. The question before Rumi is: can he be freed? And maybe if she could turn him to her side and get him to sabotage the Saja Boys to help the Hunterx seal the golden Hanmoon, maybe everything could be fixed. Maybe Ginu could be free from Gima's control and shame as well. But there's a problem, and that she's going about it all the wrong way because they're still keeping their secrets.

SPEAKER_01: 48:20

While Rumi is more disconnected than ever from her friends, she becomes more connected than ever to Ginu, and they sing this song together called Free. I love this song. And this is when Rumi starts to get her voice back, when she starts to open up and express her shame out loud and be seen and known by another person. The lyrics of the song they sing at this point are just beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 48:48

Rumi and Gina sing this duet called Free, and it reminded me of a sacred screenplay in House of Material Academy, where we envision possible futures. And they are envisioning with their imagination in this moment what it might feel like, what it might be like to experience freedom from the shame that they're carrying and through facing it together. Gina really steals the show in this song. His verse goes, Time goes by and I lose perspective. Hope only hurts. So I just forget it. But you're breaking through all the dark in me when I thought that nobody could, and you're waking up, all these parts of me that I thought were buried for good. Between imposter and this monster, I've been lost inside my head. There's no choice when all these voices keep me pointing towards no end. But it's just easy when I'm with you. No one sees me the way you do. I don't trust it, but I want to. I keep coming back to why does it feel right every time I let you in? Why does it feel like I can tell you anything? We can't fix it if we never face it. We could be free.

SPEAKER_01: 50:21

Yeah. This is basically narrating the beauty of a really good recovery group. Where you take the risk to choose hope. And that posture of hope motivates us to tell people things we've never told anyone before. We start to taste that freedom. Feeling like, wow, if I can talk about this secret, maybe I can talk about anything. Maybe I can be me. Maybe I can be free.

SPEAKER_02: 51:00

And maybe the nightmares I think of what would happen if I shared these won't come true. You know, maybe, maybe there's a future. Maybe there's healing. Maybe healing. That's what she says, sings at the bridge of the song. She says, what she sings, what if we heal what's broken?

SPEAKER_01: 51:20

And it happens in relationship. It happens in the context of a friendship where trust is built and confidentiality is protected. In this case, it's a secret friendship, and there's a romantic element to it as well. So it's mixed. This is not the victory. This is not the full healing, but it's a start.

SPEAKER_02: 51:45

And something I think is significant choice in the storytellers is that they're not emphasizing romance in this relationship. They're simply emphasizing vulnerability and compassion and curiosity. They start getting curious about each other's stories. They start feeling empathy and compassion for each other and seeing connections with themselves, what's resonating with them, and sharing that with each other. And in any vulnerable relationship that's able to be safe and that vulnerable, that's possible. A sad reality of shame is that that triggers and things can strike, especially right after we've been so vulnerable. Because immediately after they part ways from this song, Gima snatches Ginu back down to the underworld right in front of him and reminds him of his most shameful secrets that he has not yet shared with Rumi. That he's not taken that redemptive risk. This part of the movie is where they've come so close, but they're still holding back. Rumi is still holding back from taking the redemptive risk of telling Mira and Zoe. And Ginu is holding back from telling Rumi the full truth, which Gima, the voice of shame here, reminds him. And he does not mince words. He says, You betrayed your mother and your sister. You made a choice. He this didn't just happen to him. He chose to leave his family and leave them in poverty so that he could have this other life. And that has haunted him his entire life, that fateful choice, and that he has not shared.

SPEAKER_01: 53:35

He abandoned his mother and his sister to the streets while he feasted in the palace and slept on silk sheets every night. And that is the truth that he didn't fully share, that he didn't take his mother and sister with him into the palace. When he made a deal with Gima, it was at their expense.

SPEAKER_02: 53:53

Gima wields this to crush Ginu's hope and tells him he'll never be free. He can never be free. And Ginu despairs in this moment. He had made the decision at the end of that song and that conversation to join Rumi and forsake Gima, help them win the upcoming Idol Awards. But in this moment, he turns back on that decision because of his despair.

SPEAKER_01: 54:27

I wonder if some guys can resonate with that after momentum or a breakthrough or some new resolve in recovery. At that exact moment, we can get so attacked spiritually. We can get so triggered sexually and feel like we haven't grown at all. And no matter what we do, we'll never be free.

SPEAKER_02: 54:55

And we have a real enemy who wants to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 54:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:59

And the the spiritual warfare aspect of recovery is very real.

SPEAKER_01: 55:05

And we're most susceptible to that when we are most threatening to the enemy. Exactly. Sometimes when we're taking redemptive risks and we're healing and growing, that's when we become a target.

SPEAKER_02: 55:22

And this is when everything crashes down in the movie. After this, the idol awards have finally arrived. Hunterx is going to sing golden, but a trap has been laid for them, for Rumi by Genu and the Demons. Two demons manifest as doppelgangers of Zoe and Mira to trick Rumi as they perform. They switch to the song Takedown and they begin to tear off Rumi's sleeves and expose her patterns. And it is all of Rumi's worst nightmares coming true. This is the big discovery. And Rumi's world crumbles around her.

SPEAKER_01: 56:06

It's heartbreaking to watch.

SPEAKER_02: 56:09

Rumi flees and she finds the real Mira and Zoe, and her worst nightmare continues to unfold because they back away from her. Next, after their abandonment, Rumi runs to find Ginu and confront him about his betrayal on his word. And this is when Ginu finally tells Rumi his full truth. And he very vulnerably and emotionally admits his deepest pain and guilt and shame of what he did all those years ago with his family. As he rehearses exactly what Gima told him, he just reverberates the exact same message that he has internalized from Gima and says that there's no hope. After this, the idol awards are canceled, and there's this the Han Moon is physically torn apart, and it's like hell has been unleashed in the world. And the public breakup of Hun Trix has this profound effect on all of their fans. The whole fan base is all heartbroken. They all see that Rumi had this experience of being exposed and the shame, and they all start reflecting on their shame, things that they have kept hidden. And we start to see different characters hear that voice of shame in their own minds. And interestingly, in this part of the movie, when they hear these voices, it's their own voices with kind of this like dark second voice added to it. It's the message they're saying to themselves, which is, see, I told you. See, I told you. Your worst fear, that thing you feared, I told you. So just before this idol of wars catastrophe, Mira and Zoe had taken their first redemptive risks and spoken vulnerably with the group about their flaws and fears, while Rumi did not open up. And I want to take a moment to pause and just talk about Mira and Zoe here, as they are now starting to despair and feel this the shame. So we were introduced to Mira at the beginning as the visual and dance leader of the group.

SPEAKER_01: 59:06

She was the one with the long pink hair and the scowl on her face.

SPEAKER_02: 59:13

And we learned right at the beginning of the movie that apparently she was the black sheep of her family. And that she's very people consider her very cool. But Mira herself, we see throughout the movie, fears her wild personality. She fears that it actually is a problem and that she doesn't deserve to be close with anyone or be part of a family. To manage that fear, she restrains those parts of herself while posturing security and invincibility to survive life. And Golden says, I was called a problem child because I got too wild, but now that's how I'm getting paid. But she's got this tough girl exterior. Right. Her ridiculous. Redemptive risk is to vulnerably allow those jagged edges, she calls them in the final song, her wild side as well. I think her pain and insecurities, I imagine her grief from the parent wounds and the rejection from her family that she experienced to be expressed honestly. And right in that moment before the Idol Awards, when they're sitting down, she says to the others, I'm kind of a difficult person, overly blunt, short-fused, highly aggressive. My whole life, those things were a liability. But somehow with you guys, they're okay. And when they had that watershed moment, but now, after the catastrophe at the Idol Awards and the discovery that Rumi had been lying to them and keeping this secret, and Hunterx breaks up, the Saja boys are starting to rule and take over. Hunterx is a failure. And this triggers Mira to despair. And in her despair, she hears that voice of Gima, which is her own voice, saying, You thought you found a family, you don't deserve one, you never have.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:06

And then there's an extra piece at the very end. I can give you a family, right? So there's also a temptation that's offered to her.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:15

Yeah. And we hear that echoed with Zoe too. So we were introduced to Zoe at the beginning as the rapper and lyricist. She's the one with the black hair that's often in those buns on the side. She is a third culture kid. She grew up partly in the United States, but her family is from Korea and not fitting in anywhere. She says that in the song Golden, that I lived two lives, tried to play both sides, but I could not find my own place. Zoe fears that she's too much. She's too loud, too talkative, too colorful and quirky. And she also fears that she's not enough. She's the youngest in the group. She's not old enough, mature enough, competent enough, or useful enough to fit in anywhere, in America, in Korea, and even within Hunter X. She feels weird, like a misfit. Zoe compulsively people pleases to survive. The doctor noticed this in the doctor scene. He observes in her eagerness to please, maybe a little too eager, which makes her extremely uncomfortable to hear. And throughout the movie, we've watched Zoe grow increasingly anxious as she has tried to single-handedly fix Rumi's voice with the doctor's tonics and to fix the Saja boy's threat by writing the perfect rap song, but she can't do either. And she gets more and more anxious and despairing. But in that moment before the Idol Awards, Zoe's able to follow Mira's lead when Mira opens up about her vulnerabilities in that moment before the Idol Awards. Zoe follows suit. She says, Before I joined Huntryx, I felt my thoughts and my lyrics and all my notebooks were just useless and weird. But with the two of you, they mean something. I mean something. And as both of them had that moment of opening up, Rumi doesn't. She still holds back. She does not take the redemptive risk. But now, after everything has collapsed, Mira sinks into despair, and that leads Zoe to follow her lead in that direction too. When Mira says, there's no us anymore. I don't deserve a family. I never have. Zoe begins to despair too. And the voice she hears says, You're too much and not enough. You'll never belong anywhere, but I can give you a place to belong.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:52

So the voice of shame lies to her and then gives her a temptation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:58

We could also call this their inner critics, right? This is the inner critic that many of us carry that it's rooted and driven, it's fueled by that fear.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:10

We also see Bobby. We haven't really talked about this character, Bobby, their manager. And we don't get a lot of glimpses into his story, but we have some here. And we see that he fears that failing will lead to rejection and being left all alone. He fears abandonment. He overworks and obsessively cultivates their social media influence to try to survive and make things right. But now, after Hunter's public breakup, Bobby despairs. He hears that voice saying, You couldn't keep them together. You're all alone, but you don't have to be. We see that all the fans are despairing, infected their minds and their hearts, and they're all headed to the Sotzer Boys concert.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:50

At this point, everyone's in a trance. They are almost hypnotized. We might even say dissociated. They've become internally divided, and they're just kind of mindlessly following the crowd toward the concert. You can visually see the dissociation happening in them. Maybe this is the point in the film where everyone goes into the flop reaction. They just give up, dissociate, and enter a trance-like state of almost losing their own volition and becoming kind of like zombies. And this is the state that many of us enter when we are most susceptible to sexually acting out, to searching for porn, giving into temptation. It often follows this pattern that we see in the film. And as everyone approaches the concert and they're all seated at that concert, Lasaja boys sing a song called Your Idol.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:10

Meanwhile, Rumi is on her own journey. She has fled. Her fear response is almost always flight. She fears that she is a mistake, and a disgraceful part of herself must be hidden or erased in order for her to be acceptable and lovable. So she's been concealing and performing and working towards erasing this part of herself to survive. She's saying in Golden, I was a ghost alone, given the throne, I didn't know how to believe I was the queen that I'm meant to be. But now, when everything has been exposed, this catastrophe has happened. She is left with a choice. And she goes to the source. She goes to her family of origin, her aunt, Celine. The one who taught her and raised her and trained her as a pop star and as a demon hunter. She confronts Celine. She says, I thought I could fix it all. Fix me, but I ran out of time. They saw, they know, there's no denying it now. This is who I am. But Celine's response is, Rumi, no. Rumi continues, you knew I was a mistake from the very start. Do what you should have done a long time ago before I destroy what I swore to protect. She's ready to give up completely. She thinks I'm the problem and I can't be fixed.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:41

Rumi at this point is suicidal. She wants to die. She's asking Celine to kill her.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:49

And this is where Celine's response is so nuanced because it's loving and it brings her back, but it also continues the harm at the same time. It's so complex and so common and human. She says, I can't. We lost your mother. I swore to protect all that was left of her, but I never thought that that would be a child like you. Those words sting. Everything I was taught told me you were wrong, but I made a promise, so I did my best to accept you and help you. And Rumi interrogates that. Accept me, she says, You told me to cover up to hide. Celine says, Yes, until we can fix everything, and we still can, we can cover those up and put everything right again. I'll tell Mira and Zoe that it was all a lie, an illusion from Gima to break us apart. She's saying we can still walk what I'm going to call the golden path. The path of managing and fixing and hiding. But Rumi has had it with that. She can't accept that anymore. Rumi says, no, no more hiding, no more lies. Rumi says, don't you get it? This is what I am. Look at me. Why can't you look at me? Why couldn't you love me?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:18

And at this point, Rumi's eyes are different colors. One of her hands has become a claw. She's very ragged in her appearance and desperate for love.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:30

She says, Why couldn't you look at me? Why couldn't you love me? And Celine says, I do. But Rumi responds, all of me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:41

Let's pause there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:46

This is the key, I think. In the language of IFS, there are no bad parts. And to really heal, we need to learn how to love and accept the parts of us we don't like. And that starts with being loved and accepted by someone else. Rumi never got that from Celine. Celine said, I love you, I accept you. But Rumi's experience was that that was conditional and partial. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:25

Celine's love was sincere, but broken and incomplete and flawed. Why? Because of the fears and traumas that she carries, which is why this is so common. That's why my hot take about this movie is that Celine is the most realistic character because it's so common and so human. She loves Rumi sincerely and she sincerely wants to help Rumi. She's on Rumi's side, but her own fear and trauma get in the way. And it produces messages and actions that are harmful to Rumi. Rumi's loved by her and harmed by her all at the same time. And it's complicated.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:16

This is the tension that many of us have when processing our childhood experiences, especially with our parents or primary caregivers. Like, yes, my parents loved me, and my parents shamed me. Yes, they provided for my needs in many ways, and they didn't in other ways. And we need to be able to hold that tension in order to really process our experiences and heal. As Jay Stringer has eloquently said, we need to balance honor and honesty. We honor Celine for all that she did to raise Rumi. And we need to be honest about how she set Rumi up to struggle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:07

Yeah. And here I think this is why this movie belongs on this podcast. It's because it's got this portrayal of Rumi's trauma, it's childhood trauma, and it's generational trauma. With regard to generational trauma, this movie doesn't tell the whole story. We don't know what happened with Rumi's mom. We don't know really where these patterns came from. We just know that they're there and that they've been taught that they're bad. That's it. The movie doesn't bother explaining because it doesn't need to. In fact, it's better for not explaining it because that is common with generational trauma. A lot of what research has shown in generational trauma is that it's often not understood. Generational trauma is foggy because they're not our memories. And it reaches back multiple generations into stories that we don't know. And yet the effects are affecting us. And when we learn, when people learn things from their family tree of things that happened, light bulbs come on. They start realizing, they see a pattern, they see where something came from and how it developed through different generations. And this is just a very accurate depiction of that in this little snapshot in the movie.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:25

At the very beginning of the film, the first backstory montage showed multiple generations of demon hunters, the trio of singers from like the 1920s, the 1940s, 1960s, 1980s. Like it was a really quick yet significant moment where we see that Rumi, Mira, and Zoe are not the first hunters. And who knows how many generations have carried this shame and this belief that our fears and faults must never be seen. In this moment with Celine, Rumi has an opportunity to break a generational curse that goes back who knows how many years.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:15

Precisely. And this moment where she screams, all of me, I think is the turning point of the entire movie. This is the turning point for Rumi where she makes a decision to follow a different path than the two paths she's been offered. And I want to talk about those two paths because she's at this crossroads now. The two paths that she's been presented with, the first is what I'm calling the golden path. It's the path of managing, hiding, putting on a false performance. The song Golden inspired fans toward this hollow ethos of performatively presenting ourselves as freely shining, despite actually keeping parts of ourselves hidden from everyone, because those parts are viewed as unacceptable. And it renders the song's glowing golden freedom that she sings about as this out-of-reach fantasy. There are these shimmers of gold, but golden is always out of reach. It's a fantasy that she cannot capture and she's always striving for. And this is what Celine in this scene is desperately clinging to. She cannot let it go and she doesn't. And I think that's actually really brave of these filmmakers. So many times in a lot of kids' movies, when like the parent or someone is confronted, they usually have that change and that outcome that we desperately long for, for them to just like realize and then apologize and change. And then we see this happy ending where they have learned their lesson. And that doesn't always happen. And there's degrees of it happening, you know, it's not just all or all or nothing, and it's complicated. And I think this movie is very honest about that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:06

And at the same time, my experience of this moment was the most unrealistic part of the movie. Because Rumi goes from total despair, ready to die, into accepting all parts of herself. Like that doesn't just happen in a moment. That's a process. We don't come up with that on our own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:38

I fully agree with you. It's like this is the kind of moment and turn we want to happen, but a crisis doesn't necessarily always generate it. Where I've seen this in husband material is in psychodramas, where this conversation is played out with a group of people supporting and pouring in that compassion, curiosity, insights, and supporting that person working through those painful moments. And if that turn does happen in the relationship with that person in normal life, typically if that turn happens, it's because that person did make the change. Like they did like repent or whatever. And there was like a healing moment. But yeah, I think that for the purposes of the movie, it made some sense for it just like it to happen. But I think it's good for us to recognize that that doesn't happen on its own, that usually Jesus and people are involved.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:38

Amen. Yes. So while the movie is very honest and raw and true to life in many ways, when it comes to what healing actually looks like, this moment where Rumi has a breakthrough is very implausible. It's like, how does she all of a sudden step into her power and choose to be vulnerable and real and stop hiding at all and believe that all of these broken parts belong? Like for many of us, this is a messy, nonlinear process punctuated by breakthroughs, but they're not breakthroughs that we come to on our own.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:28

They're not predictable or linear. Yeah. But I would say that what happens later with when someone has had that breakthrough, and they start living and making choices in light of it and the effect it has on others is an accurate depiction of how healing spreads. And we'll get to that soon. So this golden path is reflected in the state of the Han Moon, this barrier, protective barrier. It's when they're chasing the golden path, it's increasingly porous and not working. The second path, I'm calling it the escaping or despairing path. This is where we found her and where all those other people are being led to this concert. The Saja boys are presenting this alternative path as an antidote to the broken golden path and all of its failures. When the Saja boys sing soda pop, they're presenting the antidote to our festering hidden faults and fears and wounds and shame is indulging gratification, consumption, addiction through idolizing these influential role models to the point of worshiping them. And this, as it develops and people get more addicted into this escaping through gratification, consumption. It results in this torn and now shredded Han moon. The Han moon is in pieces. It's completely broken apart. And now, as they head into this concert, they're listening to the voice, they're fully dissociated. They enter into what looks like a hellish darkness as the Sajapoys sing their final song, Your Idol. Your idol is the end result of this idolatrous worship of these pop star celebrity saviors, alternate saviors. It's an ominous religious worship experience that is all-consuming and soul-devouring. If you listen to the soundtrack version of it, it actually opens with the dire in Latin, the day of wrath from the Christian Catholic uh funeral mass. It feels like a worship concert in hell, and they sing the words keeping you in check, keeping you obsessed. Play me on repeat in your head. Anytime it hurts, play another verse. I can be your sanctuary. Your obsession feeds our connection. I'm the only one right now. I will love you more when it all burns down. Yeah, you gave me your heart. Now I'm here for your soul. I'm the only one who will love your sins. Feel the way my voice gets underneath your skin. Living in your mind now. Too late, because you're mine now. I will make you free when you're all a part of me. Give me your desire. I can be the star you rely on. Don't you know I'm here to save you? Now we're running wild. I'm all you need. I'll be your idol.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:42

Wow. This is so similar to what happens in a relapse. This is so similar to the voice of evil, the voice of shame that keeps us trapped in porn.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:05

Like you have said many times, porn presents itself to us as a solution. And that's exactly what the Saja Boys are doing with this concert.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:14

Yeah. And in my book, Outgrow Porn, I talk about it as both a pacifier and a predator. It's almost like the song Soda Pop is the pacifier side of it, the nice, cute, pretty side of it. And this is the predator side of it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:33

Yeah, exactly. I will also say that this part of the movie, this concert, is just chocked full of Christian symbolism and language. Because this is the nature of idolatry and sin. This movie is not glorifying evil or sin, it's presenting it for what it is, it's exposing it for what it is. And it's doing so in a way that is very artfully crafted, very nuanced. It's really a spectacular work of art, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:05

And just when it seems like everyone will mindlessly surrender themselves to Gima and worship the Saja boys and be destroyed, Rumi shows up.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:21

And Rumi, when she shows up, she announces that she is taking a third path. She's rejecting those two options and finding a third option. And she's going to lead everyone else down that path by taking the first steps down it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:42

She's rejecting the path of managing and fixing and trying to get rid of her patterns. She's also rejecting the path of just giving up and listening to the voice of evil and shame.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:58

When Rumi walks in, she, like you mentioned before, is ragged. Her arms are fully exposed, showing her patterns, and all of her flaws are physically shown. When she enters the scene, Gima says to her, You come here like this. You think you can fix the world, you can't even fix yourself. He's throwing back to her the words that she said during her breakdown at the beginning, right after Golden in the movie, where she says, How can I fix the world when I can't even fix myself? So he says, You can't fix the world, you can't even fix yourself. And she says, I can't. Gima says, and now everyone finally sees you for what you really are. Rumi says, they do. Gima says, and the Han Moon is gone. And Rumi says, it is. So that we can make a new one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:01

This is the third path.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:03

This is the new way. The healing path is represented in this song, what it sounds like. The song is a journey from darkness into light, and it begins with Rumi courageously and vulnerably confessing truths and the compassionate acceptance and affirmation that she shows herself and then receives from Mira and from Zoe. And that they all begin to confess and accept and affirm and care for one another. Rumi begins singing, nothing but the truth now. Nothing but the proof of what I am. The worst of what I came from, patterns I'm ashamed of, things that even I don't understand, which I think is a nod to that generational trauma. She says, I tried to fix it, I tried to fight it. My head was twisted, my heart divided. That line, that whole line, I think, is just a perfect capturing of the struggle with porn and with sexual addiction. I tried to fix it, I tried to fight it, my head was twisted, my heart divided. She sings, my lies all collided. I don't know why I didn't trust you to be on my side. Referring to Mira and Rumi. She sings, I broke into a million pieces and I can't go back. But now I'm seeing all the beauty in the broken glass. The scars are part of me. Darkness and harmony. My voice without the lies, this is what it sounds like. And then Zoe and Mira receive what she's saying. And then they join in. Zoe says, Why did I cover up the colors stuck inside my head? Mira sings, I should have let the jagged edges meet the light instead. And then all together they sing, Show me what's underneath. I'll find your harmony. The song we couldn't write, this is what it sounds like. And then it becomes an anthem. And as the music builds, they sing together. We're shattering the silence, rising defiant, shouting in the quiet, you're not alone. We listened to the demons, we let them get between us, but none of us are out here on our own. And they continue to confess: so we were cowards, so we were liars. So we are not heroes, we are still survivors. The dreamers, the fighters. No lying, I'm tired, but dive in the fire, and I'll be right here by your side. This embodies this invitation to join into this healing process, and the whole crowd, the fans, they all start to join in as well. And realizing that everyone carries these flaws, these fears, these wounds, things that they're ashamed of, things that they've been trying to keep hidden, and that it's okay to acknowledge them. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:20

And it's okay doesn't mean it's not that bad. Right. It's okay means there's grace and space and a chance to be seen and known and connected in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:38

The parts of us that have chosen to behave poorly, have chosen to sin, have chosen made choices that have harmed ourselves and others. The part that made that choice is not itself evil, something to be discarded, something to be rejected. It's a part that's burdened, it's a part that needs care and needs healing. And that's the turn of the healing path.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:09

It's not making excuses, instead, it's embracing each other. So that we can heal and grow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:20

And we see that those parts are not when they are in the light and they're accepted and cared for in this way, they're not left unchanged. We see that visually in Rumi's patterns. They transform, they are not gone. She doesn't get rid of them by the end of this movie, but they change color. They go from this festering, spreading like sickness to these glowing, like whitish purple glowing badges of healing and beauty. They're transformed, which is, I think, the goal in IFS and in husband material of moving toward those parts so that they can become unburdened. And when they become unburdened, they'll be freed to behave differently and take on a new role in their integration with us. Love it. And then what this part of the movie portrays really well is the way that this inspires others. And the first person we see inspired by this is Ginu. Ginu had been despairing. He feared that his betrayal of his mother and sister makes him irredeemable and deservedly doomed to suffer his shame torment forever. He would do almost anything to forget his past and drown out his demonizing inner critic in order to survive. But when he witnesses Rumi, Mira, and Zoe healing, it inspires Genu's redemptive risk. He dares to hope and believe that he is redeemable, that his past wrongs can be forgiven, that he can be free of his shame, misery, and that he has something to give others. And then he acts on that belief and that hope. It leads him to sacrifice his life for the rescue and redemption of others. And in his final moments, he rests free of shame because his hope and his soul have been restored.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:28

Right. Gima retaliates, tries to attack and crush Rumi, and then Ginu places himself in between Gima and Rumi, like Jesus, taking the wrath. It's a moment where the gospel of Jesus' sacrifice for us shines through so clearly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:54

We get this picture of it, this glimpse of it, right? Genu hasn't been a Christ figure throughout the movie as a character, but in this moment, he has this moment where he makes a Christ-like decision. And we see this image, this picture of Jesus in this moment. We even see like his arms stretched out, and he's kind of above her as he is taking on the full force of Gima's fire blast. And he allows that to destroy his body, but his his soul is is saved in that moment.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:32

This is perhaps the clearest picture of the gospel in the film, because Rumi can't defeat Gima on her own. This is not a self-help message.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:43

Right. And I'll get to how Gima is not obliterated in that moment. Rumi is just rescued in that moment. After Ginu's sacrifice, this whole concert becomes this collective healing experience. Because when Rumi, Zoe, and Mira are publicly modeling vulnerability, owning their faults, fears, and parts they had kept hidden in shame, and receiving one another with compassion and love, the fans are inspired to join and participate in this ethos of vulnerable transparency and forgiveness and acceptance, imperfect growth and integration. They join this defiant renunciation of permitting shame and false saviors to addict, torment, and despair them as they sing and they turn towards each other as they sing. We also see Bobby join his voice into this collective song. Gima's flame is finally obliterated as Rumi, Mira, and Zoe hold hands in a circle facing each other. They're not even facing Gima. They're facing each other and they're singing this song to each other, accompanied by the voices of all the fans. And when they do that, that is when Gima's flame is finally snuffed out completely. And when that happens, as they ascend into the air, the sunlight of the morning dawning fills the stadium. And the transition from this darkness and this hellscape into daylight and beauty arrives. And we see in that a new, rebuilt, and resilient Hanmoon. The way that witnessing other people's healing generates healing in you and spreads to others, portrayed in this song, feels very real to my experiences in husband material, attending retreats, attending the small group, and the impact of witnessing other people's healing that has had on me. And I think that many in husband material have experienced.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:52

God created our brains with these amazing mirror neurons that allow us to internally experience something of what we see someone else experience, which allows the healing to multiply. It's just beautiful. And we do that in the hot seat. Many of you are familiar with the hot seat call format, where one man is sharing and working through his healing process while everyone else is silently observing and responding with comments of appreciation and affirmation. And when we do that, everyone gets something out of it. Maybe that's part of the beauty of this more communal collectivist culture that we see in the film.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:44

It definitely is drawing from Eastern, you know, Asian cultural perspective that I think is more foreign to those of us in the United States, like myself and you, who have grown up in a very individualist-minded kind of culture where the collective is emphasized. And I see both of those reflected and affirmed in the Bible and in scripture.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36:11

And this applies to shame, addiction, and healing. Like shame is contagious, it will spread like a virus. Addiction slowly reaches out its tentacles in the darkness and consumes entire communities in secret. I guess what I'm trying to say is just like shame is contagious and spreads throughout communities, healing could be the same way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:46

Yes, and this is manifested visually in the movie by the Han Moon. It's like this visual manifestation of the state of the community. The message of K-pop demon hunters is that no part of you needs to be rejected, unmade, erased, or discarded. The parts of us that are burdened, that act out, that feel or do things we feel ashamed of, or cause ourselves or others harm, those parts of us can journey into healing. It will require facing them with others, with compassion, courage, curiosity, and care. And when we do, healing spreads. And this is the way of Jesus, the good shepherd who pursues us and tends to the wounds of every sheep, the great physician who comes to heal, the light that shines into our darkness with unending love. I wonder if some of the creators of this movie are Christians, because I think that the Christian truths of God's love are just very apparent and just come through in the message of this movie. Yeah. And the songs are bangers. Yeah. My daughters and I just continue to listen to them in the car. We try to rap with all the lyrics of how it's done. It's very fast and very hard. Zoe is incredibly talented. It's just very fun.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:17

Andy, what do you hope people will take away from this?

SPEAKER_02: 1:38:22

I hope that people take away from K-pop demon hunters that there's a third way between the managing and the firefighting in IFS terms.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:34

And in the context of sexual recovery, there's a third way beyond purity culture and beyond porn.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38:43

Exactly. You could definitely see this golden path as similar to the purity culture path.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:51

In the sense that it's based on fear, shame, silence, isolation, and performance.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38:59

And fighting, and fighting it. Like that's another thing we haven't really talked about is how they're writing the song Take Down to Die and Fight the Demons. And that's not how they defeat the demons. They don't defeat them by fighting, they defeat them with curiosity and compassion. And then the second way is maybe we could relate with the ways of the world, the way the world's culture might encourage people to just embrace all kinds of sexual activity, to just indulge in everything, accept everything uncritically and leave it the way it is, and where that leads us, just deeper into addiction and in more shame and destruction. And that the healing path, the third option, can lead us in the way of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:44

Jesus who loves us exactly as we are and does not leave us as we are, who leads us toward Himself, toward others, and towards our true selves as well. Yeah. Andy, what's your favorite thing about healing?

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:07

I think my favorite thing about healing is that journey from despair to hope. No matter how deep into despair anyone finds themselves, there's a path back to hope for themselves, for their future, for all parts of themselves, for all parts of us to be loved, that the future can be hopeful. I think that's my favorite part of healing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:30

Amen. Hope is a redemptive risk. And thank you for taking the risk to record this with me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:38

Thanks for having me. I feel very underqualified and very grateful to be here and to be your friend.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:45

I'm glad to be your friend too. Thank you to everyone listening for making it to the end of the longest episode of Husband Material ever. And no matter what, always remember you are God's beloved son. In you, he is well pleased.