Welcome And Episode Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

Meet Chandler And Relay’s Mission

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Thanks for listening to my interview with Chandler Rogers, who's the founder of Relay, the number one group-based program to break free from the system of porn and sex addiction and find lasting freedom. I think Relay is really innovative in helping people in recovery connect with each other, not just during group meetings, but throughout the week in daily doses. And in this episode, you're going to hear Chandler's personal story as well as what he has discovered about what makes a group successful. What does real accountability look like? Not the shaming purity culture kind, and also some of the unique value of enhancing our connections and our communities with digital, consistent, daily actions. Enjoy the episode. Today we get to hear from Chandler Rogers, who is the founder of Relay. Welcome, Chandler.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Thanks, Drew. So glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah, I'm super glad you're here, especially since over the last few years, Relay seems to have come a long way. What's the story behind your passion for creating relay?

Chandler’s Story And First Group

SPEAKER_00 1:26

You know, for me, I never planned on starting an app that helped people with something as sensitive as porn addiction. I grew up in a Christian household. I was the oldest of five. And I remember my parents talking about pornography. It was something that we did talk about in our home. I knew that they they really wanted to help us avoid falling into pornography. And I always had this desire to be good, to be a good kid, to excel and achieve whatever I set my mind to. And, you know, when I stumbled into pornography, and later, as I realized the effect it was having on my life, I felt what a lot of people have described as like that shame, that loneliness. And my initial path, like what I did kind of in my recovery, I the first thing I did was join a group. And I've talked to a lot of guys who maybe don't get to that step for 20 years, 30 years. And I, you know, I had struggled alone for a couple years, but I was still relatively young. I was a senior in high school at the time when I came across this young adult group led by a therapist via Zoom. So it was an online thing once a week on Wednesday nights. It was like 60 bucks a week or something. And I was like, let's give it a go. My parents were willing to help pay for it. I so I was willing to be open with my parents, which is maybe a like a you know part of my story that I'm like, why was I actually willing to talk about that? And why did I feel comfortable stepping into a group at 18 years old? But looking back, I think I just felt really quick quickly this deep truth in my heart that I couldn't do this alone. And what's led to ending up building relay is just this conviction around how important connection is and the reality that we weren't designed to be on this earth to navigate these things alone. We don't have to do it alone. There's a better path to do it, and that's by building a support system and walking that path together. So that's what I stumbled upon in my recovery, and I found it to be the missing piece that helped me.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Absolutely. And we talked a little bit about that in last week's episode with Chris Chandler, who's part of your clinical advisory board at Relay. And we were created for relationships, for intimacy, and recovery happens so

What Makes Groups Succeed

SPEAKER_02 3:40

much better in a group. You have facilitated hundreds of groups now through Relay. What patterns are you noticing about what makes a group successful?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah, I think when somebody gets to the point where they're willing to join a group and these groups in the app, right, they're maybe less scary than a traditional, maybe 12-step group that you think about walking into a church basement or going in person and sitting around the circle. This is like fairly anonymous. I can download an app, I can, you know, get put into a group where I only have to share my first name, I don't have to put a profile picture. But I think that people, when they come into a group, they often are looking to get something, they're looking to feel something from others. And what I've noticed is a lot of the time, either they instantly are met with that, that belonging, that feeling of connection. They feel seen for the first time, maybe ever. They feel like they can be open and vulnerable. But on the flip side, there tends to be maybe this the hero's journey where things aren't as roses and butterflies and picture perfect, and the novelty of this new thing, this new tool has worn off, and I reach out and no one answers, or I, you know, feel ashamed and no one has the right thing to say, or somebody gives me advice and it doesn't quite hit right. And so I think the biggest thing I've noticed is kind of expectations around when we join a community, when we step out of doing this alone, what are the expectations we have? I think there's so many righteous expectations to have, but I think the part of us, the inner boy, I know you talk a lot about this in your in your book, Drew, of healing the boy to free the man. Like, especially in those early stages, I'm often not aware of what I'm trying to heal. What wounds am I trying to heal? And so we're still desperately trying to make these bids for connection, but people are still people. Even amazing people in these recovery communities can let us down, or we find some moments of like, I get this accountability or this support, and it rings true and it's helpful, but it's not a silver bullet. And so the ability to manage those expectations and realize that joining a group, joining a community is not actually going to materially change everything about your trajectory. What I think, my thesis is having a group gives you an environment where you can do all of the individual work you need to do. It gives you an environment where you can do your personal work together in an in an open environment with other people.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

So, in other words, expecting the the group will somehow fix me is gonna be disappointing.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah, I mean it's and sometimes it like varies, right? It's like you are with the group that you gel with. I think sometimes people are maybe even looking for like a similar set of people that you would be friends with outside of outside of this context. Like I remember showing up to my first Zoom meeting and and like I was trying to gauge are these people that I I don't think I would use these words in my head, but deeply subconsciously I was like, do I respect these people? Are they uh in line with kind of my type of person that I would hang out with and however that is categorized?

Embracing Diversity In Recovery Teams

SPEAKER_00 6:46

And I realized a lot of them were into different things, different hobbies, some are older, some were younger. And I I think I pretty quickly realized this wouldn't necessarily be my choice of best friends, but I almost prefer it that way. It's almost like the diversity, which we talk a lot about in modern culture and society, diversity. I think diversity within a recovery group where not everyone's at the exact same sobriety day, not everyone's been on the on the road to recovery the exact same length of time. Not everyone has the same story, not everyone has the same details to their struggle. I think that that's a really enriching thing. But if you're coming in looking for, like, yeah, I want to find guys that can understand my exact nuance and my exact struggle, sometimes it can be disappointing. It maybe doesn't feel as validating as I hope, as I'm I'm being vulnerable, putting it out there. And maybe we're we're over-emphasizing the negative, Drew. I think there's a lot of like beauty, and oftentimes people are great about like in community and recovery, especially. I think people know what it feels like because they were there themselves a month ago when they started or a year ago. And so I think there is this natural, like something unique about community within this space that a lot of people maybe didn't know they were missing, or they thought, okay, I'm willing to put myself out there. I'm willing to get past the point where I'm I'm humbling myself to join a group of men for this issue, but then it's kind of like I'm not embarrassed about it going from there all the way to I actually look forward to it and I kind of like it, but can I admit that? Is that okay? Like, have you seen that?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yeah. There's part of me that absolutely loves being in a group, and there's part of me that is anxious every time. Am I gonna be too intense? Is my specific struggle that I'm in right now able to be held by this group? Or are they gonna try to give me advice? Yeah, I have come to a place where I love groups, and I actually decided to step back from leading my own groups this fall so that I can just be in a group and just participate. Oh, that's awesome. And not be in charge. Because we all need a place like that. And it it was surprising to me at first

Why Digital Connection Matters Daily

SPEAKER_02 9:02

how much connection really can happen online in a digital space where some people would say, Oh, well, that's not the same as in person. What do you see as some of the benefits of using an app or an online format?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah, I think I think it's really about like we've been, so many of us, right? It's like for me, I was maybe not dealing with this for decades and decades because I did find help like still when I was young, but I still felt like this was attempt number 1723 to do something different. And I think everyone probably can relate to that of like, okay, but you know, maybe this new program, this new tool, this new group, it feels like a missing piece. One part of me wants to believe that. The other part of me doesn't really trust myself. Maybe I'm too broken, not good enough to really be a recipient of whatever goodness this tool could give me. And am I really sable? I don't know. Those are some fears that I grappled with for a while. Transparently, like when I started relay, I didn't have great sobriety in a in my own measurement. I didn't feel like I've kicked this for good. That was not my mindset. I want to say maybe I was at three or four weeks, like, which was decent for maybe my my track record or my my typical cycle, but I think I hadn't even fully understood the root of like where this was stemming from. And I built this for me and I realized that even though I had gone to groups that were in a live format in person and over Zoom, those were only like one hour a week. So, what was I doing the other days of the week? I think a digital format has been huge. And what I what I wanted to create with Relay originally was how do we take this to a seven days a week? I'm not just going back into my corner and fighting my own battle and doing this alone, retreating to isolation, but I think I'm still working my program to it. Connection is something I can practice on the daily. And we all have lives, we have jobs. And so, how to make that accessible on a practical level is like a challenge that we've tried to tackle and wrangle with relay of if you've realistically only got five to 10 minutes in a busy day with your work and family responsibilities, like how can you still stay connected with your community, with your support system and work your program? It's like a critical piece, I think, in filling gaps, you know, where traditional, and I think traditional formats like in-person, I love. I know you and I were just talking before this episode about the power of like in-person retreats. And I think that like it's all progression. So a lot of people out there that are dealing with pornography, maybe some listening to this video, you may not feel like you're at a place where you have that courage or it feels comfortable enough to jump into an in-person group or even one on Zoom where you have to show your face. But if I can just start somewhere to talk with other people, that's powerful. And I think like a lot of these guys, I thought, I expected, would come into this app and want to stay super anonymous. But what we've actually seen is a lot of them, they want to be seen and known. They maybe start out with using a nickname and then they they end up updating their account to their real name, putting a real profile picture when they realize that they feel safe, right? They hit they've got a safe environment. And so I think it's about providing options that make it easier for you to be able to go from being totally alone and in shame to

Huddles, Strategy, And Teamwork

SPEAKER_00 12:17

stepping out of that shame and into connection.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

That's awesome. Now that you talk about the need for connection to happen every day, not just one or two hours once a week. I don't see how it could keep happening without digital tools in today's world. And I mean, how beautiful when a group is no longer seeing their meeting as the main thing. I usually like to call a weekly group meeting a huddle, and then the rest of the week is going out to play the game.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

And if we don't play together as a team, we're gonna lose again and again because this is a team sport, and evil is playing as a team, and so I think it's so so critical to have an easy, effective way to connect with each other during the week. The enemy's strategy is to divide and conquer. So you know, we might have a great group meeting, but what about the rest of the week?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I love that you said the word strategy because like if we just continue the analogy further, I I played basketball for a while, I ran track and cross-country. It was clear to me within the game of basketball how strategy worked. It you know, it wasn't just we have our tools, like we have our gym, we have our shoes, you gotta have the right shoes to play basketball, all these things that help us right perform as a team and individually, but we also gotta have strategy. And when I got more into running, it felt like nah you just run, you just go from A to B. And and there's no strategy. And I kind of felt like recovery in my in my early kind of understanding of it was similar. It's like, no, you just go from A to B. I need to just stop this and get over here. I need to just change, just do it, just make it happen. And I recognize that I need the tools. I still need the running shoes, I need to, you know, have the right things. But I honestly I think this analogy of of having a strategy individually and as a team is important because it it does acknowledge that there are forces kind of working against us. And how are we proactively trying to address that? And it's obviously this isn't a game. This is real, right? This is our real, our real hearts, our real relationships, our real life. Um, this is so much more than just porn. And I think it's so important what you're talking about that we we not only have tools, but we have a plan. We can develop a strategy, and it's not just us alone trying to be the coach and the player and the teammates. It's like we need all of those people involved.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah. Are you seeing groups that meet in person using a tool

Hybrid Community And Real-Life Meetups

SPEAKER_02 15:04

like relay as well, like a hybrid?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yes, actually. Um, I we'd wondered if people had like found a way to meet up because we don't actually directly facilitate that. And I just heard this story from this guy. He is a businessman and sits on the board for multiple companies. So I assume he's doing okay financially. And he's like, hey, I just want to let you know, I've been getting together with my group. I've actually been flying around to like to meet up. They did a meetup in New York, they did another one in San Francisco. He's like, our wives have become like really good friends. And I was like, wait, like you guys met through relay, right? You're talking about your relay team that like the app puts you in. He's like, Yes, the very same team. I'm like, whoa, that is really cool. But I think it's a great case study, right? It's like I mentioned people putting their real profile pictures. It's it goes a step beyond that. And we've heard other stories too of people that are just like, oh, we only live a state away. Let's meet up for coffee sometime, or just like let's grab lunch. I think having a variety of ways, like it's not just a hybrid, like sometimes in person, sometimes not. I think it's for really trying to create a well-balanced plate. We need our fruits, our vegetables, our meat. Like I need different doses of connection, different formats of connection to help, you know, give me the holistic support that I need. And that can be tailored based on where I'm at in my journey. Like for me, I'm I feel lucky if I can get, you know, an hour a week to meet with my therapist. And, you know, if I can check in in the app, which I try to do with my group in the app, you know, for two minutes, I feel like that's all I can afford right now. And I'm at a stage where we've got a young kid with another on the way. And it feels like maybe that's all that's feasible for me now, but I've had seasons where I need to, you know, make more time for in-person or make more time for online. And so I think also just that like what I've seen is the people who seem to do really well in these environments know or they have the awareness to kind of adapt their support system or their level of how much connection they're planning into their week and to do that in an honest way, to not try to say, oh, you know, I'm good. I don't need more than X amount of meetings or connection or whatever that looks like, but to kind of notice I need to throw myself in a little heavier right now because I know I'm vulnerable. I know I've got a lot of emotional pain going on. But at other points, it's like I'm making a values-based decision to kind of adjust or cut back rather than a comfort-based decision or a shame-based decision to like sneakily isolate. It's a fine, it's a fine balance being able to adapt.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Because we go through different seasons. And I've heard some guys in the middle of being discovered in their porn use or going through a relationship crisis, finding a ton of value in 90 meetings in 90 days or something along those lines. And it seems like consistent connection, even if it's digital, even if it's in an app, can help to serve that purpose. We're building new neuropathways, and that doesn't happen without time and daily interaction.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, it is like a muscle, I think, where we've got to get the reps, and it's not just

Adapting Connection To Life Seasons

SPEAKER_00 18:18

I go to the gym once and work out my biceps and now I'm Superman. It's yeah, this muscle is severely underdeveloped. And it's not just I need to practice knowing how to talk about my shame and talk about my pain and be able to relate and connect and be vulnerable. It's I've got to get comfortable like breaking out of a paradigm that is like, I can do this. I'm the hero of my story to this surrender. I think surrender is at the heart of connection. Like, how can I let other people in and be let in to other people in an intimate way, in a healing way, without some sort of surrender? And that's that's hard. But I think the must it's a muscle that we can develop.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah, vulnerability is learned. And sometimes guys will ask me, How are you so vulnerable on the podcast and the things that I share about my sexual fetish or about present-day struggles?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

And yeah, Drew, surely you just always plan to talk about this stuff. You're just born to talk about these things, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

No. Every time I've shared my story in a group setting, my goal has been to say one thing that I've never told anyone before to share just a little bit more than I ever have about a specific story or a specific thing that has turned me on or something. And every time those muscles get stronger, every time the belief that maybe I am loved and accepted, and maybe my darkest secrets don't disqualify me. That just sinks in a little deeper every time. I'm grateful that you've built a tool that allows people to slowly. Ramp up to more vulnerability, more connection, and ultimately more freedom.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, I think it's needed as the problem gets worse as technology evolves in a more degrading direction, you know, where it seems like the world is moving to hypersexuality and lack of any morals, lack of any integrity. How do we leverage connection? How do we leverage tools? And for me, my my calling felt like how can I bring technology to use some and to help guys feel like technology can be an aid in their journey to healing rather than it is the problem and I'm trying to escape it as the tech, the the phone, the computer.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yeah. As much as porn has come a long way in the past 10 or 20 years, recovery has come a long way too. Man, I wish I had some of these things when I was starting out.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, no, I think that all the time. And it is cool to see, like, we do get a lot of guys who are I won't call them old, but you know, they're they're in a more established season of life, but we get guys showing up and they're in college or they're younger, and

Rewiring The Brain With Consistency

SPEAKER_00 21:09

it just is cool to see like this isn't just guys maybe who are seeing their relationship blow up. We're also seeing guys, I think, younger and younger, not buy into the mainstream narrative of, you know, everyone's doing it, everyone, you know, it's cool, which is maybe what I heard in high school or in the locker room, but more and more guys just not accepting that narrative that I'm built for more, I'm built for more connection, more fulfillment beyond this uh false promise that is pornography and all the things that come with it. Beyond the pacifier. Yes. Yes. I love the the analogy of the pacifier because it really is like for me, it's like I have compassion on my younger self. It was just a tool. I was trying to just use it as a tool to feel better, to feel more valid for me. Like I wanted to feel, I think, more seen as a good person. I I wanted to be seen as an achiever, as somebody who's is successful. And because I felt like I just couldn't fully be recognized and seen in that way. Porn felt like that reinforcer of well, maybe you're just mediocre. It was that pacifier that I I knew I felt stupid for using it, but that's why I kept turning back to it.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

I know you talk about all the reasons in the book why, like, it's not just one reason we use a pacifier, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah, it's not just about self-soothing. It could also be about reinforcing those negative beliefs. Sometimes it's easier to believe that it will never be good enough. And that's just comfortable and familiar. Yeah. It is easier. As we talk about how far both the porn industry and the recovery movement have come, I'm also thinking about some of the approaches to recovery that have been evolving. And one of the big changes we've seen is the way people approach accountability, the way people approach sharing about relapses and behaviors that we're

Redefining Accountability Beyond Streaks

SPEAKER_02 23:19

trying to get free from. What do you see as healthy accountability, the kind that you're trying to promote on relay?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

It's hard because I think a lot of people might have preconceived experiences that shape our relationship with that word, accountability. For some people I've talked to, it's like a very positive thing. They come in basically demanding, hey, I'm downloading this, I'm joining this thing because I want more accountability. That's what I think I'm gonna get here. Other people are coming in and they're feeling like I feel like accountability equals shame in my in some past experiences. It's made me feel worse. So, yeah, what is accountability? I it this is maybe the biggest question I've asked because we have certain people say, hey man, put the streaks right on the homepage. I want to be able to see that counter front and center. And then other people that are like, no, I it like I need the reminder that it's more than just how many days that define my definition of recovery, progress. And so what are those other metrics? Like in relay, they can actually track. We use the three circles model, which a lot of programs use, and I think started an SAA that you know, you're not just defining your inner circle, what counts as a relapse and what does sobriety mean, but you're also defining that middle circle of you know what boundaries define me getting too close to the cliff? For me, maybe it's scrolling Instagram when I'm home alone or staying up past midnight, or for me, a big emotional boundary is not regulating or addressing feelings of rejection, especially with my wife, like even just little doses of I wasn't seen enough or I wish I had more of that attention. So they're tracking those things, and then they're also tracking self-care in that outer circle. So you can customize that, like, okay, I'm working out every morning or I'm doing my daily devotion or I'm journaling or going to therapy once a week, whatever it is. So I think that's one step, Drew, of like, what are we even tracking on a daily basis? It's not just, did you look at porn? You know, did you relapse and whatever that means to you, but how are you moving towards the person you're trying to be? So I am a believer, and and I this is my kind of philosophy that tracking is helpful. I think it's hard to measure what we can't track. And so just like anything, if we want to get better, we've got to measure things, but how do we measure the right set of things that help help us get beneath the surface? So a lot of the things that I just mentioned are still behavioral. They're only really measuring, did I do something or did I not do something for these different categories, which is a step. I think step number one is most guys are like self-care, what does that mean? Isn't that like spas and you know, paint in my nails or what is stuff like that? It's what my wife does. No, self-care is how do we take care of ourselves in our emotional needs, our physical needs, our spiritual needs, our relational needs. And so that's step one. But even just moving beyond behavioral routines and rhythms and systems, you know, how can we be accountable to or let other people into our journey beneath the behavior? So I'm trying to figure out where did this even stem from? What are the wounds that are driving the behavior? What, you know, what was I using this as a pacifier for? Where did it start? So there's all that work that, you know, is not maybe the focus of this episode, but how does that relate to accountability? I I think maybe one definition of recovery is simply just letting other people have a window into your journey. Your journey can be things, actions that you're taking, like things that I, you know, hey, Drew, like every day, I'm committing with my integrity. Like I don't want to do these things, and that's for me part of my sobriety. I'm also committing to do these other healthy things. That's part of my recovery plan. But it's also creating a window to what are my thoughts? What are my feelings? What are the inner experiences that are coming up throughout this work? So in relay, practically, people can track, you know, those three circles and their data, and then we encourage them to kind of add a little

Tracking Three Circles And Self-Care

SPEAKER_00 27:01

reflection that, like a share. Like if you were in a meeting and you're sharing what's been going on in your mind and your heart this last week. And I feel like a good coach would probably help you go deeper and ask why or help you kind of draw out, you know, what's really, you know, what are you discovering and navigating under the surface in your in your recovery right now in your life? Accountability in the group setting, I think that's 10 out of 10 effectiveness, is creating a window to those things, not just, okay, I know Sean's at day 100 and Drew's at day 30. And, you know, I I had a relapse yesterday, and I'm honest about that. That's a start. And if we can, especially just around the relapse thing, because a lot of guys do come into relay and they they are still having relapses on a daily or weekly basis. So I think even if we can just start to make accountability not a shame-based experience, it's less about resetting my streak and more about being vulnerable with you know what is under the surface behind that behavior. That's real accountability. That's real connection. I think that's powerful.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

We want to incentivize vulnerability instead of incentivizing secrecy.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

For sure. If I could add one more thought on accountability, I think, again, going back to where we started this conversation, what are my expectations when I step into a group? I want to feel like I'm the recipient of some really healthy encouragement, of some not shameful accountability. Like for me, what I want to feel with accountability is like it's easier for me to just do the right thing and to move in the right direction because I know you're supporting me, because I know you have some visibility, some window into how I'm doing, it's easier for me to actually continue to build momentum, to move in the right direction. And that's so encouraging and empowering. But if our expectations are just I'm hoping to get that from you in a way that is, it has some expectations attached, some, you know, maybe it looks a certain way, maybe I'm aware of that, maybe I'm not, or maybe somebody doesn't give that in a way that feels quite right. How do I respond to that? So going back to the expectations of it's not just about what can I get, but what can I give? I think in the traditional maybe 12-step paradigm, just how maybe I've seen the space evolve, the concept of being a sponsor for me makes it feel like you have to be at a certain place in your sobriety in order to really be of service and help someone else. Now, I know there's a lot of ways that maybe the traditional 12-steps would encourage the idea of turning outwards that goes beyond that, but it does feel a little bit like only once I've really cracked this thing can I help somebody. And I think when we think about accountability, it's got to be from day one, no matter where I'm at and how early I feel in my journey, the muscle of connection it goes both ways. I've got to practice learning how to care about you and see you, Drew, and your pain and your progress check in. Like if I'm seeing your three circles check in and your journal reflection, how do I flex into that to develop that empathy, to receive your vulnerability? I think that strengthens that healthy bi-directional accountability. If I'm just hoping to receive that, I think again, it's we overcompensate, we're we're let down, it doesn't produce the end result so much as when we have the chance to be there for someone else, not when we've cracked it, but along the way, as we're doing it ourselves. We don't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

And that is true not just for

Vulnerability Over Shame-Based Metrics

SPEAKER_02 30:20

good sexual recovery, but also for good sex. To be a good sexual partner, we need to be not just me, me, me. We have to get outside of ourselves too. Yeah. It needs to be reciprocal, mutual.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah, recovery can't be just about me.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Right. So I think in a space where we're not just taking something, for example, in a one-on-one session with a counselor or coach, but in a group where everybody gets a chance to share and everybody supporting each other, we're practicing the virtues that make a good husband, make a good lover. That's so true. So I really think it's a lab for love that is not just about abstaining from sexual behavior, but having really good, godly sexual behavior too.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yes. I'm like, how are you gonna phrase this? It's really a lab to get good at, you know. It's like so accurate though, because it's intimacy. It's intimate to be vulnerable about my deep dark my deep dark secrets and to let you in to have this relationship around connection and accountability as we're working through this together in our recovery community. But man, that makes me, yeah, it does make me so much better at being able to attune to my wife's needs and to notice her emotions and to step into that with her, and vice versa, to be able to even advocate for like, here's what I I think I need right now.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Exactly. So I'm convinced that what we learn in brotherhood applies equally to the bedroom. Those same skills and attitudes we're developing of curiosity, compassion, courage, you know, dealing with our shame, being real about our fears, and pressing into the mess. Last week with Chris Chandler and Andrew Engstrom, I created a new definition of intimacy, which is into messy.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Into messy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Maybe that's part of what our expectations need to be for our groups. It's gonna be a mess and it's gonna be a mess worth making. Yeah. Chandler, what is your favorite thing about freedom and healing?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

You know, I think early on it was feeling like I could like not be alone in this anymore. Not just the knowledge that I wasn't alone, but the felt sense of I've got a set of brothers that are on the same path with me. I respect them, I love them, I know they love me. And that feeling was something I didn't know that I needed or wanted in my life. And I think even as I've moved beyond that, I think the most beautiful part of this whole journey for me, which is still in progress. I feel like I'm learning new things and developing more in my recovery every, every month, every year. But it's like it's actually, I'm becoming more in tune and connected with myself and especially with my past, that little boy. Just

Giving And Receiving Accountability

SPEAKER_00 33:18

really briefly, I've got, I mentioned I have a two-year-old at home. Getting to love him and build a relationship with him as young as he is, building a real connection, I think has been a fruit of my labor in recovery to get more connected with myself, that little boy that was in pain, that didn't know how to outgrow this pacifier of porn for so long, that felt so stuck, that felt more broken than everyone else in the groups. Getting to see that now manifest in my my actual posterity with the next generation, it just fills me with a desire and this vision of like the beauty is not just my own healing, it's what could this do for him? And as I see other men changing and becoming husbands and fathers that are changed and healed, even it's a work in progress. It's not just what it's doing for them, but I see what it's gonna do for their family, the generation that comes after us.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Amen. There's so many ripple effects. And I resonate with what you said about getting what you didn't know you needed. So many of us coming into this think I need sobriety. I need to save my relationship.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah, I need to put out the fire, yeah, just get rid of this, weed it out.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Not realizing that there's so much more to that that we've been missing out on.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

I think it's all about connection and like the beauty of life and the richness and the color that just so much to appreciate, I think, about life as we move beyond and and discover and connect with our own self and with the others around us.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Chandler, thanks so much for being with us. If somebody would like to get connected to Relay, where should they go?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah, you can just go to the App Store or the Play Store on your phone and you can search Relay. You can also go to our website, www.joinrelay.app. And yeah, whether you're already a part of a program, you're working with a therapist, you don't have anything at all, and you're listening to this video and you're scared, you want to take the first step. We're we're here to help make that step easier.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

And I also spent some time on the Relay website today and saw that they have a podcast. They also have a free in depth guide, which is really, really good. You should go check that out, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Guys, always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.