SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go. Hey, my name is Drew Boa. I'm the founder of Husband Material, where I help men outgrow porn. Today we are talking about psychodrama, a powerful approach to healing trauma, getting free in many areas of life, and something that I have learned from my dear friend, Dr. Doug Carpenter, and his unique approach, which we are calling direct. Today you're going to hear about the direct approach to psychodrama, why it's unique and different from some of the other organizations that do similar work, and what we do at Husband Material Healing Weekends. These are intimate, intense, and amazing four-day weekends for a maximum of eight participants at a time. These healing weekends fill up. Our upcoming one in Utah is now full, but the one in Florida has some spots available even farther into the future. If you go to husbandmaterial.com/slash retreat, you'll see our next larger retreats and smaller healing weekends. We would love to see you there. Doug is kind of like the guru who has been training me and our coaches in how to do this work, and I can think of no one better than him to be able to unpack what happens when we create space for transformation. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to Husband Material. We get to spend even more time with Dr. Doug Carpenter. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45

Thank you. It's always great to be back. Especially about such an exciting topic that we're going to talk about today. Something that I just love.

SPEAKER_02: 1:52

We are talking about the unique approach that Husband Material uses for embodied healing processes. We sometimes call it psychodrama, that Doug has developed. In 2021, at the very first husband material retreat, first time I ever met Doug Carpenter in person, I invited Doug to lead a breakout session, and I didn't know what I was in for. He did something I had never seen. It was incredibly powerful. I had no words for it. And now I know that I was seeing psychodrama. Doug, what is psychodrama?

SPEAKER_00: 2:33

Well, it's it's a way to embody your internal experience in an outward way. So I think I've said this on the podcast when we've talked about this before, but psychodrama came out of Italy, a man named Jay Marino, where he was watching a group of kids play on a playground and just really realized they're acting out their traumas and they're resolving stuff through their play. How could I get adults to do this? And so then he started having groups where people would come and he would walk them through in a very attuned way how to work out some of the traumas that they were dealing with. And it just showed tremendous results. So that's what we do in psychodrama. We take either an experience that you've had, a situation that you've had, an emotion that you're having, a part of you that is experiencing something, and we embody it. We act it out, we turn it into life and have an interplay and an interchange around it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:37

And if you're still having trouble imagining this, one of the most common features of psychodrama is role-playing. So you could be in a group where somebody's playing your dad or your mom or your anger, your fear. We could have someone playing the role of Jesus. You could have someone playing your inner child, and it all organically develops into something that gets to the core of exactly what we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_00: 4:10

And healing can often come in surprising ways. Very surprising ways. Once you embody something and start to act it out, it taps into a deep layer of emotion that you may not even be aware of. It's a very what we call a cathartic experience. Something begins to shift inside of you and you begin to experience this in all in a whole new way. And sometimes we need to go back and revisit things and experience those feelings. But the ultimate goal then is to re-experience them in a way this time that has a different outcome for you, and that you're witnessed and attuned to and seen and cared for. So you can have a different resolution. And that cathartic process is what brings the healing in the situation.

SPEAKER_02: 5:02

You've described it as undoing and redoing.

SPEAKER_00: 5:06

Absolutely. Those are two great words. You go back, you create the scenario, you undo it, tear it apart, analyze it, and then we often redo it in a way that you would like to have had the outcome turn out, or experience a shift in feelings that you needed to happen back there, that then ultimately leads to healing.

SPEAKER_02: 5:30

And it can also be focused on the present, something you're in the middle of right now that's overwhelming or difficult, or it could be something in the future that you are dreading, or that you need to start processing before it happens.

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

Or do rehearsal for. How am I going to feel when I do this, when this happens? And so we walk through it as if it were happening. And your body can, your body, your mind, your emotions can begin to adjust and wrap itself around the experience in preparation for you to have that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:07

So past, present, future, emotional, relational, sexual, physical, all of it can be involved in a psychodrama process. Why is psychodrama so powerful for men outgrowing porn?

SPEAKER_00: 6:23

Well, because it opens you up to vulnerability and expression, expression of your emotion, and that you can experience, you can embody it, you can experience it, you can bring it outside of yourself. You can hear it, you can see it, you can attune to it, you can have others reciprocate all those things to you because so many times men who are facing struggles have never felt witnessed or seen or heard. And this provides all those opportunities.

SPEAKER_02: 6:56

Such a breakthrough into vulnerability, community, empowerment, expression, and also deep processing. Porn gets its power from unprocessed experiences. And the more we process those experiences, especially the ones that we're sexualizing through porn, the less power it has over us. It's not like I'm never going to be tempted again, but it doesn't have the same pull. And when I can see it more clearly, when I can relate to myself and others differently in it, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 7:32

It's hard to describe the difference. It is. And so many men turn to porn as a coping skill. Porn is not the problem, it's the coping skill that they've developed for an underlying conflict and dynamic that needs to be worked out. It's a deeper emotional wound that needs to be worked through, that is just manifesting or masking with porn as a behavior to cope. And psychodrama helps get to those underlying conflicts that are really at the core of who you are and that's just causing you to get off track.

SPEAKER_02: 8:09

And when you think about our traumas or our conflicts or the places in our life where we feel stuck. Our survival instincts are more connected to this. I often say it's not the mature, adult, logical, rational you that is stuck in porn. Right. It's a younger, more emotional, more vulnerable, wounded part of you.

SPEAKER_00: 8:48

Well, oftentimes in the psychodrama, we take you back to that. When did you fight, flight, freeze, fawn, flop? You know, we take you back to that experience and what was going on, and have someone attuned to you in that moment and help you through that experience.

SPEAKER_02: 9:10

Could be the experience of being all alone as a kid, could be the experience of encountering porn for the first time, could be sexual abuse or early sexual awakening where you felt fear and shame and disconnection. Oftentimes, our psychodrama processes engage with the inner child in some way, but in every single case, it's embodied, which is huge because porn takes us out of our bodies. It's a way to escape from our stories and our feelings. Psychodrama, you get into your story and your feelings, and we let what's inside come out in a cathartic way, in a safe container. And that's so important because oftentimes the only place where we feel like we can let out some of these feelings is through a secret sexual outlet rather than in real life letting things be seen, known, and healed.

SPEAKER_00: 10:12

You mentioned the whole inner child work. And I was just sitting here thinking about one of the most powerful processes that you and I have ever done together, I think, is where a man went in to a doctor's office and rescued his inner child from some trauma that was happening. And that was just so powerful. By going in and rescuing his inner child from that terrible situation, he gained so much power back from being able to do that. And it's just such a beautiful thing to watch that healing occur in the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 10:50

Because in that doctor's office, he felt powerless. And I was actually playing his inner child.

SPEAKER_00: 10:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 10:59

And I'll never forget. We were both weeping and sobbing, and and and he picked me up and carried me out and brought me back into his life today.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

And that caused such a huge shift in his feelings and self-concept, and the part of him that needed to be brought to a place of healing.

SPEAKER_02: 11:24

That little boy was stuck back there. And there was a very clear before and after story. And it's not like some kind of arrival, but it is an amazing amount of progress that can happen in a very short amount of time. Yes. And there are different men's experiential weekends where you can experience psychodrama. While learning from you, Doug, I eventually realized that you do it differently. And over the past two years, I've been formulating a theory about what makes Doug's approach unique and coded it as the direct approach, D-I-R-E-C-T. And we're gonna go through each letter of direct to describe how it works. Doug, what makes what you do different than some of these other organizations?

SPEAKER_00: 12:24

Okay. And I do lots of psychodrama with these other organizations, but oftentimes their process can at times be very structured. There are certain steps that you follow. A lot of times you only have 30 to 45 minutes to do the process. Where in the approach that you and I have worked on, we have retreats where people have two to two and a half hours apiece to work through this. So the level and the depth that we can get into in the psychodrama is much, much deeper and can be way more powerful than if you just have a shorter amount of time. Even though I have seen beautiful, beautiful things happen in 30 to 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_02: 13:11

So we don't want to discount or discredit those experiences because they are absolutely divine, transformational, and amazing. And we really see the need to spend more time on this, partially because everybody in the group is also experiencing something at a deep level. And rather than just move on to the next person and go to his process, we want to allow each person to fully share and receive what they got out of another man's work.

SPEAKER_00: 13:50

Yes. So we take the process and kind of put it on steroids. I guess a way I want to say this. And it's funny because when I first learned how to do psychodrama, I learned it from a man when we were in a running groups in an addiction treatment center. So I didn't learn a real structured way to do this. I learned a very creative way to do this. And so I've always operated highly in the creativity part of this. And then when I got out there in the other in the world and found more people who were doing this and they were doing it in a much more structured way, I was like, oh, that's really odd to me because I'm used to having all this space and free-flowing energy and creativity. And so I've tried to mix those two worlds. I try to have some structure, but mostly create a space where we can use creativity and do anything that needs to be done in the setting. Like the D that we have in the director project is called dynamic. And we have it called dynamic for for lots of reasons. We can focus on anything, anything, any part of you that that is coming up and is present. We don't have really any constraints. We can use a very dynamic format. Well, we have some constraints. Yeah, but what I mean by that is like we've done psychodrama in the pool, we've done psychodrama in the parking lot of a pharmacy, we've done so whatever needs to happen in that moment, we will do our best to recreate the situation for you to truly have a cathartic experience. It becomes extremely dynamic. We're not structured to point the point where there has to be a certain setting, a certain time, it has to progress a certain way. I remember one time Drew was very got very tied up by someone who was wanted to bound the character that he was playing, and they drag him outside of the house.

SPEAKER_02: 15:50

Yeah. So I tend to be very good at playing evil or the inner critic, the voice of accusation or condemnation. Yes, which is a very dark role and yet often very powerful for the man doing his work to talk back to that voice and even to defeat evil. Over conquer. Yeah. So if a man experiences a lot of self-hatred or he's disgusted with himself or something he's done, if he feels like the voice of the enemy is whispering in his ear, we can create an embodied process to be able to work with that.

SPEAKER_00: 16:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 16:44

While it is very dynamic, we do have some boundaries. For example, we're always going to be closed.

SPEAKER_00: 16:52

Well, for example, we had a person who had a trauma during a swim class. So we all got our swimming trunks on, we all got out in the pool and we recreated that scenario for this man to work through the situation. And the pool was the right setting for this to happen. So we tailor make it to be appropriate.

SPEAKER_02: 17:15

We turned a kitchen counter into a bar scene where a man got to have the conversation with his father that he wished he would have had and never got.

SPEAKER_00: 17:29

And that's the creativity part of this. We we can keep it so dynamic and so open, you know, that it is truly a science and an art. But there's a lot of art here and a lot of creativity to turn your setting into whatever we need it to be.

SPEAKER_02: 17:48

It's an adventure into the unknown. Everything is constantly evolving, and yet we're not making things up either. Everything we do is based on what is being said or shared.

SPEAKER_00: 18:03

You're right. That's the I and the direct, is the intuitive part. Drew and I will intently attune and listen to the person, their story, the emotions that are coming, the nonverbal cues that we're seeing from a person, and we'll read those and we'll check in with them and we'll draw that out as much as we can to bring it to life. It's a very intuitive process. We are very focused on you and your experience. And that's why it can go in any possible direction.

SPEAKER_02: 18:40

So we're never going to introduce something and say, now you have to follow these instructions. Rather, we are going to follow the man doing his work in what he's talking about and check in to see if something resonates. If we have an idea or a potential direction for where this process could go, it's never imposed, it's always proposed, it's always a suggestion. And if my grand big idea was not feeling safe for the person or not feeling like what he needs, then we throw it out the window.

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

We don't do something that's prescribed. What we often do is if if you're experiencing anger in the moment, we will stop and ask you what needs to happen with this anger. What does he need to do? How does he need to express himself? What do you want to happen with this? And we completely follow your lead.

SPEAKER_02: 19:54

It may be that there would be a lot of healing in expressing that anger through hitting a punching bag, for example. Sorry, I just started laughing. We even had somebody burn the book, I Kiss Dating Goodbye, as a way of breaking up with purity culture.

SPEAKER_00: 20:15

Yes. So I was aware this man was very traumatized by this book. He had shared that with us. He had let us know that talking about that book was probably going to be part of his process. So before the weekend ever started, I went and bought the book and I hid it in the house. So during his process, I inadvertently had him find this book, and then he was able to destroy the book. We went out to the fire pit and he ripped it up and was able to burn it and really sever his unhealthy connection with purity culture through this.

SPEAKER_02: 20:52

Yeah, it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 20:54

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 20:54

And that was just one part of his process. But the point is that's what felt intuitive to him.

SPEAKER_00: 21:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 21:02

So when we say it's intuitive, yes, the facilitators are using our intuition, but really we're trusting the intuition of the man himself as our primary guide. That's really important because it's not like we're leading the way and saying, follow me, do this. It's like, no, the client leads the way.

SPEAKER_00: 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:23

And we're coming with you.

SPEAKER_00: 21:25

Just like in anger, we need to find out from you. Does this anger need to be expressed? Or do you need love or Jesus or something, someone to come in and sit with your anger to calm it and soothe it? I can't prescribe that for you. I have to figure out what you need. And it's my job to then help facilitate that happening for you through my use of knowledge and creativity.

SPEAKER_02: 21:51

This is never an investigation with a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

No.

SPEAKER_02: 21:56

This is always attuning, checking in, and seeing what resonates. Sometimes we have to get to what's underneath the anger, which could be sadness or shame or feeling completely alone. One time we had a trial process where Doug was the attorney, which you're a really good attorney, by the way.

SPEAKER_00: 22:28

We put his abusers on trial.

SPEAKER_02: 22:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 22:31

Right. And his bullies.

SPEAKER_02: 22:33

And his bullies, yes. And we asked the man, what do you want to happen here? And he took the charges against his bullies, he tore them to shreds, and he said, I forgive you. And that's what he needed to do in the moment.

SPEAKER_00: 22:51

It was a beautiful release of years of pent-up hurt and energy.

unknown: 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:58

I think it shocked you and I. I don't think you and I were prepared for him to say that. We were expecting, okay, now the bullies are going to fully be punished for their behavior. And then he offered them forgiveness, and it's it just totally changed the entire perspective and what was happening in the psychodrama. But it was the most beautiful thing that needed to happen.

SPEAKER_02: 23:19

And that's why the letter R indirect stands for redemptive. These experiences are meant to redeem incomplete experiences. And we don't necessarily know how that's going to happen, but we try to stay sensitive to the nudges from the Holy Spirit or the ways that the man's origin story might reach a new conclusion. And that experience of forgiving his bullies was a great example.

SPEAKER_00: 23:54

Yeah. And the redemptive part, so many times we invite Jesus or God, who what whatever deity person you need to come and be along with you and help you see that he was there all along with you. And that can be such a redemptive, emotionally changing process to bring in the spiritual component during the redemptive stage.

SPEAKER_02: 24:22

I remember there was a process where a man was carrying a lot of shame about one of his eyes. And I remember that I was sitting across from him and he he was not ready to look into my eyes. And I felt the presence of Jesus in me prompting me to see if it would be okay for me to touch his eyelids. And when that happened, it was like Jesus touching the eyes of a man who was blind. And eventually he looked up and the tears were streaming down his cheeks. And that was another inner child rescue process, but then Jesus showed up.

SPEAKER_00: 25:14

So beautiful and powerful. I mean, some of the some of the most extraordinary moments of my career have been in these moments of doing this process with Drew and with the men that we work with. Just to see the transformation this approach can make in people's lives is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02: 25:36

Oftentimes we'll end a process by singing a worship song that relates to the theme, and it hits such a deep place in our souls. That's part of the redemptive piece of this, and why we see God working throughout, and we try to create space to invite him into the process as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00: 26:03

Very much. And sometimes we'll often end in prayer as well. Maybe not just a worship song, but prayer or prayer for this person to move into a new place, a new realm, a new emotional space of health. And it's it's just been so powerful.

SPEAKER_02: 26:23

And oftentimes in our healing weekends, we will end with a journaling process where you're not just writing a prayer to God, you're actually getting an impression of what Jesus might be saying to you. That's the redemptive piece. The E indirect stands for embodied. Now, this is already obvious at some level, but then Doug, you take it to the next level because we are always looking for ways to make each process as physical as possible.

SPEAKER_00: 26:58

Absolutely. Like you when somebody takes on a role, we put them in that role. Like we have lots of props that we use, colors of cloth, we turn emotions into colors and surround people with that color. We truly try to embody and bring the role to life so the person can truly experience it outside of themselves.

SPEAKER_02: 27:26

For example, we had a man do a process with his inner infant, his baby self. So having a baby doll in the room to represent that for him took it much deeper. I don't know if we could have gotten to that point without some kind of physical representation.

SPEAKER_00: 27:57

Right. And another one that comes to mind for me, there was a situation where somebody had experienced a trauma in a building that was just being built where the studs were around. And we took the bar stools and turned them upside down that surrounded him as if there were these two by fours all around him. And it became so realistic. Like we turn our environment upside down when we're doing this. We'll use any piece of furniture, any, any, anything we can get our hands on to recreate the experience. And it just becomes so powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 28:30

Couches, tables. It could look like a disaster zone.

SPEAKER_00: 28:35

Yes. Sometimes we have to completely put the environment back together. We have some of these weekends at my home in Florida. And so I have to warn the neighbors, hey, I'm having a guy's retreat this weekend. So you gotta be, you know, you never know what you might see or might be happening. And so they're kind of like, oh, you're having another one of those weekends things, right? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we are. So, you know, just kind of ignore us. You're probably gonna see some strange stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 29:01

You might hear some loud profanity.

SPEAKER_00: 29:03

You may hear some loud yelling. You never know what's gonna happen. But yeah, sometimes after a process, we have to completely put the room back together because we have just totally transformed it into whatever space the person needs and been able to do whatever action needs to happen.

SPEAKER_02: 29:23

Yes. And many of you have heard me talk about the power of particularity. I want to give an example of that. I did a process where I was working through my undiagnosed ADHD as a kid and how I would be constantly losing things like my backpack, my phone, clothing, keys, school books. And so when I started my process, I closed my eyes and asked people to go and get those objects and put them in front of me. And when they did, this guttural groan and wail came up within me. Just the unbelievable frustration I had in wanting to remember, wanting to keep track of these things, wanting to do what my parents asked me to do, and just feeling utterly unable to do it. And in my mind, those backpacks and school supplies and everything were huge. They were like buildings above me, and I was so small. And then when I opened my eyes, I saw that how small they truly were. And something shifted. And that was just the beginning of my process. But it's an example of how when we get physical items or people who have for certain physical traits, sometimes it makes it more real than if you were just doing this work internally in a one-on-one session.

SPEAKER_00: 31:01

Absolutely. And the power of having other people involved. And we'll get to the this next one. The C in direct is communal. And the communal part is we involve so many people. Like you have your process as the protagonist, but then you ask other group members to play the parts in your story. And they take on different roles. And it's so powerful sometimes what you can experience when you take on a role for someone in their process and the stuff that it will bring up inside of you. And then how much it helps the person who's the protagonist to have you there playing that role for them. Everybody gets involved. And even if you're not chosen for a role, the whole event is so captivating that it's hard for you not to get something out of everyone's process. So we usually do this with eight guys, like at least two hours apiece. So that's what 16 hours of therapy. I mean, for yourself, even though you're not the one in the hot seat the whole time, but you gain so much from just being involved and present.

SPEAKER_02: 32:18

You gain empathy, you gain friendships, you gain an awareness of the power of God as you witness how He's working. It's been so encouraging to me. It's been so confirming of like, I'm not just making this whole Christianity thing up because like, look what Jesus is doing right now.

SPEAKER_00: 32:42

Right. And the deep friendships that I've seen develop between men who've gone through these healing weekends together is just astounding. Men truly have relationships and friends and a group of men that they can relate to like they've never experienced.

SPEAKER_02: 33:02

I've led a lot of online groups. And occasionally, friendships in those online groups will continue or they'll keep meeting. The level of continuity I've seen after these healing weekends, where we do the direct approach, psychodrama for four days, has been phenomenal. Most of the time, these guys keep in touch and we'll see each other again and pick up from where we left off. So that's why the see indirect is so important, communal. It's not just one man doing his work, it's really everybody working together as a team. We leave no man behind in each process. And before and after each process, we always check in with everybody because stuff will come up that we might skip over if we were only doing 30 to 45 minutes per person. You know, okay, we got to get to the next guy, we got to get through everybody. It's like, no, we have time and space to slow down and let each man fully share and receive what he needs. That's huge. And then another piece of the communal aspect of this that that's heightened in the way we do it is giving each man in the group more of a role to play. Because it's not as controlled, yeah, there's maybe some more risk involved of somebody saying the wrong thing or doing something that doesn't resonate. But it's not just the leaders who are guiding this. We're saying, hey, if you guys have an idea, come and whisper it in our ear and maybe we'll do it.

SPEAKER_00: 34:47

Yeah. If you're picking up on an emotion or a feeling or something that we're not seeing, or even when you're playing a role, if something's coming up for you in relation to this person and how you bring that out, like we welcome all that. We welcome group participation.

SPEAKER_02: 35:06

We're co-creating it together. And oftentimes participants, not just leaders, will have a breakthrough inspiration, or they'll know just the right thing to say, even though we didn't tell them to say it.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

Yeah. And part of the beauty of this, too, is that you have two skilled facilitators. Like Drew and I are both very, very, very creative people, and we work well off of each other and we have great intuition for one another and what we're thinking and seeing. And, you know, together we're pretty a pretty dynamic duo. And I love working with him, but together, we can keep the energy level up, we can keep the attunement up. You know, you've got such an advantage of having both of us there together, and then all the other members playing into it as well. It just becomes so powerful.

SPEAKER_02: 36:08

So, in this approach, we need at least two facilitators in the healing weekends we have planned for 2026. There will be three facilitators, and that also allows us to step aside with group member who might be especially triggered and who needs more support because this process was too much for them. There's so much time, so much space, so much support involved. We don't control what happens. We don't try to lead it toward a specific outcome, but we trust that there will be transformation. And that's the last letter of direct.

SPEAKER_00: 36:45

Yeah, a transformation needs to come at the level that you're ready for it to happen, not what we're ready for it. Because I may still be able to see three more steps ahead of you of what needs to happen. But I've had people in a psychodrama get to the point where they say, I'm done. I've got what I needed. Like this is this is where I need to stop right now. I need to absorb this. And that's perfectly fine. That's wonderful. So transformation comes at your readiness, not something we're pushing you to do.

SPEAKER_02: 37:19

And we recognize that we don't create the transformation, we create the space. God is the one who transforms, and we entrust the whole process to him.

SPEAKER_00: 37:31

And we try to take something from the experience for you to really anchor. We call it the anchor. And this happens in guts work and other other types of doing this as well. But we try to anchor it like what can you hang on to? What can you take away from here? What's a statement, a phrase, a new mantra, a symbol of something that you can really hang on to and stay with you as an anchor to carry with you forward to remind you of the transformation that's happened.

SPEAKER_02: 38:02

And that's something that I learned from Roy Wooten. Doug, I know you've learned a lot from Rich Weiler, and there are other people like Matt Winger, Andrew Bauman, who have helped me get into this. The direct approach is not necessarily totally new, but I do think it's a really unique evolution of this work that is more dynamic, more intuitive, redemptive, embodied, more fully communal and transformative. So if you want to experience this with Doug and I and some of our other leaders, we want to invite you to apply for an upcoming Husband Material Healing Weekend. You can do that at husbandmaterial.comslash retreat and see all of our retreats coming up and the healing weekends. How are retreats different from healing weekends? Well, retreats have a much larger group, say 100 participants and 20 staff. A healing weekend has a maximum of eight participants with three staff and one cook. So 12 total under one roof, eating all of our meals together, playing together, connecting and checking in in between these intense processes. So it's a much more intimate, personal, and open-ended experience that has been absolutely profound to witness. The healing weekend we have coming up in Utah is now full, but the one in Florida in late January still has some spots available. If you're listening to this months or years into the future, we are doing these regularly and would love to see if you might be a good fit. This is a next level experience for men who have already done some work within husband material. It's not something we want you to jump into if you've never done HMA or joined a private group or been to a retreat. Because of the intensity and because of the unique approach, we want to make sure it's a good fit. And the way to do that first is by coming to some of our other opportunities within Husband Material and seeing if you want to go to the next level, in which case we invite you to apply. And you can do that at the link in the show notes. One of the most common reactions I hear from men who hear about this work and they're considering if they might want to do it is that they feel intimidated. It's scary to consider what might happen if I open myself up to this kind of experience. I want to reassure you that in every man's process, including yours, you have a voice and a choice. And we trust you when you say you need something different. If there is one word that captures what I've learned from Doug, it is attune, attune, attune. More attunement, more attunement, more attunement, which means at every point we're listening to you. We're following your lead. We're staying with you. We're not leaving you alone. This is never gonna go to a place where you are forced to do something. Rather, we're surrounding you with the relational support and sensitivity that you might need to face some of the most challenging fears and places of shame that you might not ever otherwise be able to access. And when we go there, we also trust that Jesus is with us, and as we enter into a kind of crucifixion, that there will be resurrection, even beyond what we can imagine. Doug, what is your favorite thing about psychodrama using the direct approach?

SPEAKER_00: 42:26

Oh, that's a big question. It's gotta be the transformation stage to just see a person from start to finish and then where they're at at the end. You watch healing happen right in front of your eyes. And it's it's it's something that's unexplainable. It is just a transformation that happens before your eyes, and it is truly the most phenomenal thing I can witness. And it's the moments that I live for in doing men's work, is for these transformative moments that I see happen through the work that we do. Miracles, miracles.

SPEAKER_02: 43:14

Sometimes a man looks younger or you can just see the freedom, the relief the relief of the burden.

SPEAKER_00: 43:24

Yes, and just their whole countenance of being unburdened is just astounding.

SPEAKER_02: 43:32

So it's hard to describe, but you have to experience it. And we would love to see if it might be a good fit to have you at an upcoming healing weekend. Again, you can go to husbandmaterial.comslash retreat to see our upcoming big retreats and the smaller healing weekends. Let's pray, discern, and maybe even take a redemptive risk to see what might happen when we create space for transformation. Always remember you are God's beloved son. In you, he is well pleased.