Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Thank you so much for listening to this awesome interview with Marco Casanova, who is the Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries, where he oversees the Living Waters program that changed his life.

Speaker 1: 0:30

Marco has such a cool story that includes sexual attraction to other men, gay porn, eight and a half years of Catholic priestly formation and also getting married and, more recently, becoming a father, experiencing incredible healing and transformation, especially through the work of John Paul II and Theology of the Body, which you are going to hear more about, and how it inspired and challenged him to start engaging with women and appreciating women in a healthy way. There's so much rich insight here. I think a lot of you guys are going to resonate and delight in what Marco has to say. Enjoy the episode Today. I am delighted to introduce you all to Marco Casanova. Welcome to the show. Thanks, drew. Thanks for having me. Man, I am super excited for people to hear more of your personal story. Where did your sexual formation begin?

Speaker 2: 1:22

I really encountered Jesus in a powerful way when I was studying to be a Catholic priest. I feel like I really wasn't a Christian in many ways. Of course us Catholics we believe that we're Christian at infant baptism. But you know, for all intents and purposes I really wasn't saved in the area of my sexuality, which I would say, if you're entering the seminary you definitely want to be a Christian prior. But five years in I really had an intense encounter with Jesus, especially in this struggle with same-sex attraction. At this point in my seminary career I had acted out homosexually outside of the seminary community, had a pretty big addiction to pornography gay porn in particular and so it really was a turning point for me and from that point on I started to understand a little bit more about who I was as a man made in God's image. But I really felt like I wasn't very integrated. I wasn't committing mortal sins, so to speak, but I still was disintegrated, especially in my view, not only of myself among men but also my view of woman. I wasn't very chaste, as we would say in the Catholic world, which I can kind of unpack that. I think it's a great word. It sounds archaic and maybe a little scary.

Speaker 2: 2:36

It's probably, I think, the best goal for this kind of work is chastity, and for various reasons. First, chastity is a subset of temperance, which is a cardinal virtue. And I only say that because the cardinal virtues there's four are so important in that the very nature of a cardinal virtue is that you become more human when you exercise them. So the idea of becoming more chaste is really the idea about becoming more yourself, sexually speaking body, soul and spirit. And then, secondly, a virtue is that which is activated in the will. So it's something that inherently involves my will operative. And so it's not like the hemorrhaging woman who just kind of touches the cloak of Jesus and then I'm healed of porn addiction. It's actually I have to exercise something of my agency as an image bearer of this God. And so chastity is really. It's like how chaste do you want to become? And if you want to become really chaste, then you got to, will it? Of course we're not Pelagian, it's Jesus working in us, but it is all about exercising our will. So, anyway, after this crazy revelation I had, I started to become more chaste, but I was still rather unchaste in that. I'll try to simplify this, drew, because it is a little layered.

Speaker 2: 4:04

As a person studying to be a Catholic priest, I was really discerning the idea of becoming a celibate for the kingdom of God. But Pope St John Paul II which I think we'll probably get into a little bit more in his idea of theology of the body he's so clear about celibacy is not just a hiding place, or it's not a hiding place at all hiding place, or it's not a hiding place at all. So, like a lot of us will say, oh, I'm struggling with same-sex attraction. So therefore, based on my experience of SSA, I'm just going to be a celibate. And John Paul II would say, well, not necessarily.

Speaker 2: 4:35

You know, like, being a celibate for the kingdom of God is all about being fully identified with Jesus and his kingdom purposes, about being fully identified with Jesus and his kingdom purposes. It's not solely based on, oh, I can't get married because I'm disqualified from that. It really. John Paul II would say no, we got to look deeper at this and you got to really challenge yourself with the hard questions. So I did, and it was really through Living Waters and the work that I do that I came to ask those difficult questions and I was able to take more steps and I'm that I came to ask those difficult questions and I was able to take more steps, and I'm taking more steps in my chastity.

Speaker 1: 5:11

Especially when it comes to sexuality. What was it like for you as a boy growing up?

Speaker 2: 5:16

As a kid growing up with SSA, that was a tension for sure. I mean, I grew up in a Mexican-American household. My parents are wonderful, but it wasn't necessarily a conversation that we would have about that, and I think being able to recognize that in my adult life has been really helpful for me and my whole family, honestly. So don't underestimate the power of divine mercy for your life and your sexy sins, for example, but it actually may open up a real faucet of the blood and water for your whole family, and that's what I really have come to experience. I'll give you an example, drew. I really do believe my same-sex attraction is emblematic of a kind of father wound. I know people scoff at that and I don't want to put people in boxes as if that is the one-size-fits-all of people with SSA, but for me it certainly was, and so my lack of advocacy that I experienced from my dad did contribute to my lack of security in myself as a boy and as a boy among boys my lack of security in myself as a boy and as a boy among boys. And what I quickly realized when I came into the healing journey through Living Waters was that I did need to do some work of actually feeling that wound. You know like actually feeling the pain of that and the loss of that. You know it's not like I can go back in time with my dad and he can fill in those gaps. It's honestly, those developmental stages are so pivotal but they're missed. If they're missed and of course the Holy Spirit can come and do a mighty work but there is a kind of wound that's left there. I did feel like in my healing journey I came to forgive my dad in a way and I wasn't able to move on past it. If I wasn't able to forgive His lack of advocacy for me, I did see it as a kind of injury and because of that I think I judged him for it and I judged him for a long time. I felt like he wasn't giving me what I needed and because of that I really I kind of detached from him. And it wasn't until I was able to really forgive him I was able to kind of step into what it means to be a husband and now a father.

Speaker 2: 7:44

I remember when I wanted to tell my dad all of this, because I was processing this and I'm like I should really tell my dad and we don't necessarily have these deep conversations in the Casanova household. We have good conversations, but we're not so therapeuticized. My dad's not like thank you for sharing, and so it is what it is and I love them and I don't want them to. And so it's like it is what it is and I love them and I don't want them to be therapeuticized, but what you get is what you get. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to tell him, I want to tell him that I've been doing this process and I really want to let him in on that.

Speaker 2: 8:16

And so the time that I could get with him is when we were going to the grocery store and we were in the grocery store parking lot, and so I decided to share all of this with him and he was able to recognize it and he was able to say, yeah, I know, I, I wasn't there for you and and I realized that and I'm sorry for that, and there was something about that that was simple and in the way that my dad could, which released a kind of healing for me, and I was able then to to like, appreciate him in a way that I never have, and and so I honestly, there is a kind of healing I've I've experienced with my dad, where I don't judge, I don't judge him like I did, there really is a gratitude of being his son. So in living waters we go through it all and without that forgiveness piece we're just kind of receiving mercy for ourselves and maybe it's cathartic, but if it actually doesn't flow from us, I think it actually doesn't do its full intent and purposes.

Speaker 1: 9:17

That's really well said, and that flow might take a while, and that's okay, it may take years, take a while, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 9:26

It may take years, you know it may take, hopefully. You know, forgiveness can be given when you feel it, to the best that you can, and maybe you have to forgive over and over and over again. It's like great, so be it. Keep forgiving until you don't have to forgive anymore. I mean, that's the power of the mercy. We receive it so as to give it, and the more we give it, the more we become like Jesus. I mean the more that we become like these little, wounded, little Jesuses. You know where our wounds are, open and visible, but yet they don't have the stench of death. They're flowing with divine mercy. Why? Because we've received it, because we're sinners, and then we can give it to those who've wounded us. So the more we forgive, the more we become like him. It's a great rhythm to get used to as a Christian, I think.

Speaker 1: 10:14

So good. So you were preparing to be a Catholic priest and then you had this radical encounter with Jesus, this transformation started experiencing more real chastity, not just hiding as a celebrate priest. What happened when you entered the Living Waters program?

Speaker 2: 10:39

So I was a little nervous because, you know, living Waters, desert Stream, it all sounds very evangelical. I was a little nervous because, you know, living waters, desert stream, it all sounds very evangelical. And as a as a professional Catholic, I was like what the heck am I, what am I doing going to this evangelical thing, you know? And so a good priest friend of mine was like, yeah, there's this guy named Andrew Comiskey who founded this desert stream, living waters, reality and he really believes Jesus can transform people on the level of their sexual brokenness. And I'm like that is awesome, like I'm all about that now, you know, post conversion and I need that.

Speaker 2: 11:11

And so I went to one of these week long immersive training experiences that we still do and I just went for my own personal healing and it really shifted something in my life.

Speaker 2: 11:23

The best way that I could describe it, Drew, is that it broke a kind of domination of homosexuality in my life, in that I was able to sort of stand upright, able to see a horizon for my sexual humanity that I never was able to see before. And I think that was many things operative in this week obviously the power of the Holy Spirit, but also the power of just witness of really messy lives, coming to know Jesus and the process of how do I actually work, confusing attractions out, not only in this body that I've been given, but among persons of the same sex in relationship to the opposite sex, all of these things which I'm like, wow, this is incredible. And to really put a cherry on top, all of it was threaded with this John Paul II stuff, and so that was a surprise to me. I didn't really expect any kind of catholicity in this week, but it was as if I was kind of home in my denomination.

Speaker 2: 12:27

This John Paul II figure was leading me, was almost providing a kind of roadmap for me to reconcile with the good of my masculine sexuality. Yeah, messy starting points, no doubt, but through Redeemer Jesus, he Jesus can actually help me make peace with what's good, true and beautiful about being a man. So that week really shifted my life.

Speaker 1: 12:53

I love that so much. We're talking about Pope John Paul II and his magisterial work, Theology of the Body. For anybody who doesn't know what that is, how would you explain it?

Speaker 2: 13:06

So I'm going to take a step back In 1968, the Pope prior a couple of Popes prior to Pope John Paul II was this guy named Paul VI, and Paul VI instituted this beautiful encyclical called Humanae Vitae, on Human Life. John Paul II, in a way, wanted to expound on this foundational teaching, and he did so through this biblical anthropology, later called the Theology of the Body. And what he did is he did this through a series of talks. So every Wednesday the Pope comes out and he greets thousands of faithful in the square and he gives teachings. He gives some kind of teachings and, honestly, when you go as a pilgrim to Rome and you're hearing the teachings in Italian, you're like, oh, this is kind of like maybe a fragmented series that I barely understand. But hey, this is great, I'm glad I'm able to see the Pope.

Speaker 2: 14:01

But what Pope John Paul II was doing through the years of 1979 to 1984 was he was actually teaching the church what it means to be made in the image of God, what it means to be capable of bearing life, of siring life, and how we can responsibly do that, not just by saying a big no, but rather what does it mean to be human, sexually speaking? And how do I actually take steps in gaining some ground in what it means to be a man for woman and a woman for man? That's kind of the thesis of John Paul II's theology of the body. So, for a very roundabout way, is I think he was expounding on that 68 document that was saying no birth control. A lot of people are saying, well, yeah, I mean, we get it, but we need more. And John Paul II in a way humanized this teaching by expounding on what is human love through the lens of the gospels.

Speaker 1: 15:07

What were some of the key ideas that really made a difference for you?

Speaker 2: 15:11

Oh yeah, I mean I would say first and foremost the dignity of woman. I just think that that is just kind of paramount to Pope. St John Paul II's thinking is woman, you know, and he obviously had a great devotion to Mary, the mother of God. She was the first receptor. So there was something emblematic of her fiat that every woman, in a way, just by virtue of her womb and the nature of her body, that is made for receptivity. There's something about her that actually gives us an interpretive lens through which to see the totality of human sexual love.

Speaker 2: 15:53

So for me that was big why? Because in my same-sex attraction I wanted to bypass woman. I'm like woman, I'm a little allergic to woman, I'm a little threatened by her, I'm more disinterested in her than overly interested in her, or I want to keep her not in a romantic. I never, I never can be romantically involved with a woman. I mean, that was kind of my framework and in a way, honestly, what John Paul II was teaching me is you know that's a little misogyny, you know there's like a thread of misogyny that you're cultivating, maybe even through pious thoughts of oh, you know, as a same sex attracted man, I'll never be married because you know, I'm supposed to give my life to Jesus and John Paul, ii would say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You actually haven't looked at her, you actually haven't faced her, whoever she is. You know, it doesn't mean that marriage is the end of every story, but it's to say, if you're going to become a man, you actually have to face who you are to her. And so that rocked my world, man.

Speaker 1: 16:58

Wow, I've heard people say only a man can make a man feel like a man, but not as much about the role of women for us becoming men.

Speaker 2: 17:10

Oh yeah, I mean, I think in relationship to the opposite one is it's essential to healing. I mean, this is the downside, I think, to recovery culture is that it's so like wrapped up in oneself and even maybe wrapped up in the same sex, whether or not you struggle with same sex attractions besides the point. But it's kind of like gathering with your brothers and like getting you know, getting better, which is honestly so good, praise god. But there there can be a kind of walling off to the good of the other, you know, and to the fact that as a man I actually have an inherent capacity to secure her in love, whether she be my coworker, my sister, my mom, my wife, like I have that capacity in me, you know.

Speaker 2: 17:57

And John Paul II so clear about this, and he's not saying, oh, this is only for the marrieds or you know, no, he's like for everybody, this is for everybody. And so he was like dude, he was like a robust guy and he was so in, not only in touch with his own masculinity, but I think it's because he was so okay, so at home, with being in relationship to the opposite sex, even as a celibate, and so I think he teaches, especially men like myself who come out of homosexual stuff like, oh, you got to look at the other and you actually have to make peace with her if you actually want to become yourself, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 18:40

Yes, and it sounds like Living Waters allowed you to actually start doing that.

Speaker 2: 18:46

Yeah. So Living Waters, the very model of it is men and women together. You know, of course we have sex-specific small groups where we work out our accountability and we're able to share vulnerably, but it is about being in relationship to the opposite sex and learning how to listen to the teachings alongside her. I mean, in our culture today it's always like the men's talk and the women's talk, but in Living Waters it's like no, this is really for everybody. And you know, we usually say that the talk that maybe is more geared towards one sex may actually be more valuable and revelatory to the opposite sex, you know, and just that it teaches us how to acclimatize ourselves to who they are, you know. So, yeah, living Waters it's like threaded in that and it taught me that in a big way.

Speaker 1: 19:37

I've recently experienced powerful healing just through being prayed for by women At my church. I'm involved in the prayer ministry and two separate times I had three women surrounding me, like knowing intimate details about what I'm going through, with a context of so much kindness and sensitivity. And then, even putting a hand on my shoulder, I was like, wow, I think God is restoring my relationship with women.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Wow, I agree. I mean I think good feminine touch through prayer experiences is super integrative, I think, in Living Waters, when we're able to experience that and we're not able to necessarily experience that every week, but when we are it's really beautiful and I think it does sort of fill in a kind of gap, you know, with various family of origin starting points that may have had breach with mom or, you know, historic bypassing of woman or maybe a real degradation of woman or something. You know there is something restorative about those really good spiritual experiences for sure.

Speaker 1: 20:57

What else really stands out to you from Theology of the Body?

Speaker 2: 21:00

I think another aspect is what it means to be made in the image of God. Of course, I think this is another way of looking at the dignity of woman thing. But just hear me out the image of God. John Paul II would say that you're not made in the image of God in a moment of solitude, but in a moment of communion, which is, I'm not in the image of God on an island alone. I'm in the image of God when I'm in relationship to the other, and so, again, it's just another invitation to be like okay, if I'm going to take this heritage of being made in the Imago Dei seriously, I got to take a look at how I'm relating to her.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Now, for those of us with SSA, that, can you know, brings its own challenges.

Speaker 2: 21:46

But I think, in the context of Living Waters, you have other guys who probably have no problem being attracted to women, right? Maybe they're addicted to pornography and objectifying women, but yet they still lack in their ability to dignify her in reality, and so there's almost a level playing field at the cross, if you will. You know, and what it means to step into, what it is to be an image bearer, no matter your starting point, you know. So, instead of siphoning off like into, oh, this is the gay group or this is the abuse group, or you know, kind of categorizing based on your experiences of brokenness, there is a, I think, a power and an efficacy when you come together with various starting points represented and yet the same goal, that it breaks an isolation in myself like, oh, actually my wound isn't so special or my wound isn't unique and I actually can take steps, like my brother is taking steps, and that may look differently, but the goal is the same. And so John Paul II really teaches us that in a really beautiful way.

Speaker 1: 23:02

As you talk about being made in the image of God. I have this picture of being like one fragment of a stained glass window, and you only see the bigger picture when that fragment's connected to all these other shards and all these other pieces of glass that together form the bigger image.

Speaker 2: 23:20

Yeah, oh, absolutely. It is a picture, if you will, of living waters. In a way it opens our eyes because, honestly, when we're struggling with something like a sexual addiction or exotic sin or whatever, we can be so hyper-focused on ourselves you know that one we run the risk of missing worship of the one. But when we're alongside others, we actually become healing agents in our healing. So it's not just about us, it's not a therapeutic exchange like, oh, I'm paying you money so that you can give me advice. It really is discipleship, like, oh, I'm here, yes, to receive mercy for myself, but I pray that I can be a merciful agent for you as well. I think another thing too. John Paul II says that the man is the guardian of the reciprocity of the gift, and what he means by that I think I mean, honestly, you read some John Paul II.

Speaker 2: 24:19

You're like I love that I have no idea what it means, but I think I know what this means as the guy. Whenever there's something off in the relationship and this is marital in particular Whenever there's something off in the relationship and this is marital in particular, it could be with coworkers we as the man have this capacity to break Adam's silence and to say are you okay, is something off? And I see this in my marriage. My wife or her and I may have had a little fight or a disagreement or something and she's taking it badly, and I think my tendency would be like I don't want to talk about it, like I'll let her bring it up or, you know, let's just let it, let's just go a little bit by the wayside.

Speaker 2: 24:59

But then these words of jump all the second you know, you, as the guy, is the guardian of the reciprocity of the gift it just kind of keeps ringing in my ear like wait a minute, I actually have a duty to break the silence and to say did I offend you with that?

Speaker 2: 25:15

And if I did, I'm sorry and is if there's a way that I can rectify it, I should? Or is there something that is bothering you that you want to bring into the light, like we as men are, have this amazing capacity to do that and to bring a kind of of peace, a kind of healing, if you will, into especially our marital relationships. But I even see this in my coworkers, like, if my coworkers, I work with a few women, amazing women, empowered women, but if there is something a little off in them, I I can be like hey, is everything okay? You know, is there a way that I can help you with this? Or are you stressed and I can alleviate some of that? So, as guys, I think we're not so quick to activate in that, but I think when we do, it's really good and it empowers our sisters to feel a kind of security, appropriate security around us.

Speaker 1: 26:11

Yeah, I like that. So you went from Catholic priest in training to leaving the seminary and then eventually meeting your now wife at Living Waters. What was it like for you to get to know the woman who became your wife?

Speaker 2: 26:30

Yeah, when I left the seminary I thought you know, dating is going to be like super easy. You know like I can do this Famous last words? It wasn't so easy. You know like I can do this famous last words? It wasn't so easy. You know, my last name is Casanova.

Speaker 2: 26:42

I thought surely I'm not so weird. I'm certainly strange, but not that weird. But anyway, I quickly realized that being a good gift in my humanity certainly invites the possibility of rejection or things just not working out in the dating relationships. Honestly, that's just something we have to learn as dudes. If you want to embark on offering your gift, there is a possibility that that gift isn't received. So what a great opportunity to develop fortitude. Yes, you can grieve, but no more than a day. You got to get back up and into the game. So that's kind of the motto that I took.

Speaker 2: 27:25

And, and you know, through the fits and starts of offering that gift, I did have a temptation to just go back to the seminary. Like the hell with this. You know, I'm just gonna go back and be a priest, you know, because honestly, when I left the seminary, I was developing attraction to, to women. I mean, there was like a desire to learn more about women and it was developing. It wasn't like this high octane. Oh my gosh. I'm now desirous of every woman that's walking. It's more. No, I'm appreciative of women. I'm John Paul II would say be fascinated by women, and I was. I'm like, wow, there's so much I don't know, you know, there's almost a mystique. So I want to know more. And so that was inviting me into the game, so to speak, at this point, when I thought I'm really going to not do it and just go back to the seminary.

Speaker 2: 28:14

I was on a work trip going to a little town in Poland called Wadowice, which is outside of Krakow, and Wadowice actually is the birthplace of Pope St John Paul II. It's a neat place to visit. So Andrew Comiskey and I were there. We were doing a marriage retreat. I was just kind of clerking it, he was doing it, and I remember thinking, wow, I love this, it's kind of rejuvenating me for the idea of marriage. I mean, it was so ethereal. I really didn't have anybody in mind, it was just more. I like this idea and I don't want to check out into the seminary quite yet.

Speaker 2: 28:48

So, fast forward a year, we're back in this same little town of Pope, st John Paul II, and we're in this retreat house giving this living waters thing, and I see this woman go up for communion at Mass and I'm like, wow, she's beautiful, surely she's married. I don't know, that's what I thought. I thought maybe she she looks married and sure enough she wasn't. So I thought, you know, I'm really going to ask her on a date, and I did. And so we're there, we're in this little town, polish woman, mexican dude going out for pizza next to John Paul II's old apartment, crazy stuff. So we hit it off, we do this long distance thing, we go back to the same place a year later and we get married, praise God.

Speaker 2: 29:28

There was something really amazing about really just learning about this woman, you know, and the fits and starts of being in relationship to her, and she comes out of a different background. She was in Living Waters not for same-sex issues but for sexual abuse issues, and so she needed Jesus and his mercy differently than I needed in my own life. But Living Waters gave us a common language to understand each other in our broken terrain, so to speak, and it was there that we're able to learn kind of the reciprocity of giving and taking in love and she needed to understand a little bit more about my struggle and my history with pornography and my history with homosexual acting out. All of these things were just inviting a kind of real difficult vulnerability. I mean, it wasn't easy. It wasn't like, oh, this is awesome, just like full steam ahead. It was more. What does this mean? You know this could be a little threatening to me, or this this has the capacity to to shake my foundation. If, if, if I know that you maybe at times have a vulnerability to check out in pornography or whatever the case is, at times have a vulnerability to check out in pornography or whatever the case is. So it was a real fodder for us to just get to know each other more but also to trust Jesus Like Lord. We need you. We can't do it without you in and among us. So I'm really grateful for Living Waters in that it gave my wife and I a real ground to not only meet but to develop, I think and I hope, a good infrastructure for us, as we're pretty young, still in our marriage just a few years Just had a baby, so two months old.

Speaker 2: 31:09

Congratulations, yeah, thank you. Thank you, she's really sweet. We love her so much. We struggled with some infertility in the beginning but through the help of some great Catholic physicians we were able to find the underlying causes of that and we got pregnant, praise God. So a lot. Honestly, we're indebted to John Paul, we're indebted to Living Waters.

Speaker 1: 31:35

They both have given us vision beyond our fractures, and praise God, we're fruitful.

Speaker 2: 31:53

Awesome, and I hear you putting language to something that it's sometimes really difficult to wrap our minds around, which is like, know what I mean? Like this is what Christmas is all about. That he assumed our sexual human nature as his own, I think, means that our sexual humanity has a redeeming plan. St Gregory of Nanzianzus, one of the early church fathers. He had this wonderful axiom that said, that which he has not assumed isn't redeemed. So the fact that he assumed it means that there's redemption for it, not from our sexuality, but actually for it. And so Jesus, sexually speaking, he is the he's, he's the man that we all want to become, man and woman. You know, it's in him that we find our fullness. And so, yeah, don't, don't, don't think that the Lord is afraid or ashamed of your sexual disintegration. In fact, he wants in because he has a plan to redeem it. I just believe that.

Speaker 1: 32:48

And oftentimes, when we think about what it means to be masculine or what it means to be a man, the pictures in our head are not Jesus. He truly is the definition of fully man.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean we do have to reform our minds. I think we're so pornified, honestly, our lenses have become so scrambled through pornography, that we think in objective terms, objectifying terms. And I agree with you Jesus has to be the goal and he has to be the picture of the man that we want to become.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Marco, what is your favorite thing about healing and freedom from porn?

Speaker 2: 33:32

I love living in reality, you know, just not checking out with virtual stuff Like that's. So not checking out with virtual stuff like that. So it kind of honestly it's. There's never been a time where anybody I'm just going to say this, anybody watches porn and they're like, thank, I'm so glad I did that. Like that, I feel so much better after that. It just burns and then it's like the lust kind of burns, the residual.

Speaker 2: 33:59

You know, I love being able to just stay in reality and so what that looks like for me is, you know, being with my wife and my kid and enjoying a nice bottle of wine or a nice meal or watching a good movie. That isn't like the Chosen, you know. Like do something, that's normal, you know, and and just enjoy being a sexual embodied being. I mean, angels can't drink wine. You know angels can't watch movies. They don't have eyes, you know, technically speaking. So I don't know just like enjoy being embodied without it being so like burning with lust. I love that and it just actually feeds me. I mean, the counterfeit is, oh, if you check out with pornography, it's sort of going to feed you. Honestly, that pleasure is so fleeting and it leaves you more empty and more hungry than before. But when you feast on good things, it actually is so helpful. So I'm a big proponent of if you're going to fast from porn, you got to feast on something. So find good things to feast on and don't be so scrupulous or even, like you know, so ascetic to where you don't enjoy good things. So I love that.

Speaker 2: 35:15

I also think, too, I need good friends around me. I need good same-sex friends who know me, who I can speak to and check in with on a daily basis. I need that, so I do that. I check in every morning. Was I clear from porn and masturbation and did I do my daily holy hour? I have to check in on that, something I'm giving up and something I'm taking up. In the past I thought, oh, I'm going to do my accountability like once a week or once a month Honestly just never worked for me. I always had little shadows and you know days off and weeks off. It's it got weird. I need the daily thing and so I can't do it without these guys whom I love as my brothers, as my friends, who, who can really sharpen iron, you know, and help me through difficult seasons and temptations.

Speaker 1: 36:08

Awesome. That's so much of what we care about at Husband Material, not just avoiding what's bad, receiving what's good together.

Speaker 2: 36:18

I agree, drew. I think it's so important for us guys who are coming out of addictive stuff find good to enjoy, and sometimes that means getting off the couch and going and making some friends and saying to these friends, hey, I need some good accountability, would you be willing to do that with me? And they may look at you strangely, but believe me, they need it as well. And so I think when we're able to do that as guys and and inform community in our need it's, it's such a lifesaver truly.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Amen. Thanks so much for being with us.

Speaker 2: 36:54

I'm so glad you reached out and this is. This is great. Love the work you're doing and thanks for thanks for just being a presence on YouTube. That's, honestly speaking, such truth to guys, especially with SSA. I really appreciate that man who's coming out saying, hey, this doesn't have to be the defining factor of your life and you actually have a capacity to be a good husband despite your brokenness. I love that. So bless you for that, brother, it's great.

Speaker 1: 37:19

You're welcome. We are all becoming sexually, emotionally and spiritually mature.

Speaker 2: 37:27

Yeah, amen.

Speaker 1: 37:28

Guys, thanks for listening and always remember you are God's beloved son In you. He is well-pleased.