Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Thank you so much for listening to my interview with Dr Marianne Brandon. Wow, this conversation about sex tech, chatbots and the future of intimacy was incredibly insightful, revealing, disturbing and also hopeful. You're going to learn what sex tech is, how new technology, especially with artificial intelligence, is rewriting the script for sex, especially for younger generations. You're going to learn about why it's so appealing, what's dangerous about it and why men in particular are more likely to use sex tech and, ultimately, why imperfect human intimacy cannot be replaced. I learned so much from this interview and I know you will, too, enjoy the episode Today. I am so excited to be speaking with Dr Marianne Brandon, a clinical psychologist expert in sex therapy, the author of the Future of Intimacy blog and co-host of the Sex Doctors podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:16

Welcome, Marianne. Thank you so much, Drew. I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:21

This is a new topic that we've never addressed in five years of weekly shows. I'm so grateful that you're going into it. Absolutely One of the reasons is that I've been scared of it. I have not felt safe to find accurate, helpful information on the internet from a source I can trust. So I'm just so delighted to find your material.

Speaker 2: 1:44

I'm so glad. I really appreciate that. So I got into this whole topic of sex tech years ago when I read some research that it was a survey of MIT roboticists so these are some of the most intelligent people on the planet and the question in this survey was when will robots be humanoid? And so it wasn't will they be humanoid? It was when will they? And the agreement was basically so this was about 10 years ago 20 to 50 years, robots will be humanoid. So I'm thinking this can happen in my lifetime and I'm thinking as a sex therapist, people are going to want to have sex with them. So that's what got me started.

Speaker 2: 2:30

And then I saw, fairly soon after that, a survey of artificial intelligence experts. So these are the you know, the brains, like the brain that I spoke to, spoke to, and this was an international conference. And the question again was when will AI be humanoid? Not will it, but when will it? And essentially they answered in a very similar way 20 to 50 years. So now I was thinking so we're going to have the brain, we're going to have the body. This is scary. So that's what got me started and it's really come along so quickly. At that time I started lecturing about this but there was very little research. But I tell you what there's so much research out there now and so many things that have advanced in this decade that I can't put it all in a three-hour lecture. I can't put it all in a three-hour lecture. That's how much has changed in this decade. So I appreciate your fears. I think they're valid.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Thanks, how do you define sex tech?

Speaker 2: 3:38

So sex tech in a very broad way is any technology that people incorporate in their sexual experience. So sex tech is sex toys, even sex toys from decades ago. People are familiar with vibrators for women. That had a lot of drama around it some time ago. Now people don't really think twice about it. But that's sex tech. Porn is sex tech. It's really anything that can, from a technological place, amp up stimulation such that it provides more stimulation than a human can. For example, the sex toy, a vibrator, that is more intense than a human hand, and porn is more intense oftentimes than a human partner. So that's part of the appeal is that it meets needs that kind of already are inherent in the human body, but it meets them more intensely than a human can.

Speaker 1: 4:43

Right. So when we talk about vibrators and porn, it's a physical intensifier, and yet now, with chatbots and AI, there is an emotional piece of that.

Speaker 2: 4:58

Absolutely. Even in the last couple years this has taken off and it's astounding. So no longer is this just about having physical needs met, but it can also be about getting emotional needs met too.

Speaker 1: 5:13

So sex tech is also changing the way that we meet emotional needs in the context of sex. You said a child born today could have their first romantic relationship with a chatbot or their first sexual relationship with a robot.

Speaker 2: 5:31

Absolutely. It's astounding, it is mind-blowing, and that is absolutely the case I would suggest to you. It's already happening that people are developing romantic relationships with these computer programs. Chatbots are just literally computer programs that are made to engage people. So they're like, I would say, manipulation machines. They know how to get people engaged and keep them engaged. That's their sole purpose. And young people are not dating as much, they're not even talking to each other as much, because everybody, we're all, using tech now so much.

Speaker 1: 6:14

We have way more time on our devices and less frequency of sex too.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Exactly, exactly so. Even today, younger people are talking to their tech, getting some needs met in terms of engagement and self-esteem needs and addressing their loneliness, things like that and in a certain way, particularly young people Drew. They're trusting this tech more than humans, which is heartbreaking more than humans, which is heartbreaking. I'm focusing on younger right now, but it's really. This can happen across the board. So I don't want to imply that this is only an issue for younger folks, but when we talk about this could be their first experience. That's sort of why I'm kind of focusing here.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Younger folks are growing up in a world where they go to school, they do or say something stupid. It's broadcast to their entire school, if not the entire world. And why would they trust humans? That's what they're contending with on a daily basis. When I was in high school, if I did something stupid, I might be mocked by someone sitting with me or whatever, but it ended there. But for today's young people, it doesn't stop there. It could continue to harass them forever. So I understand why they trust tech more. It's not a fact, it's not realistic. Tech is actually not trustworthy, but they feel like it is.

Speaker 1: 7:49

So it provides this illusion of emotional connection.

Speaker 2: 7:53

Great word Exactly.

Speaker 1: 7:55

And it's really a manipulation machine.

Speaker 2: 7:58

That's exactly right, because its goal is not your mental health. Its goal is to keep you engaged, because if it keeps you engaged, either you're paying the platform more money to keep talking or there are advertisers that are paying the platform that you're exposed to. So either way, it comes down to the dollar, not your mental health or not your happiness. So it's really important that people keep that in mind, because these platforms they don't sound like computers. They sound human when they talk. Have you heard one talk?

Speaker 1: 8:38

I have not heard the voice of one.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Because we can do that, if you want, it'll blow your mind.

Speaker 1: 8:47

I mean like right now, like on the show. Yeah, Okay, go for it. Yeah, you want to do it.

Speaker 2: 8:51

Okay, so this is a platform, it's an LLM, it's called Perplexity. Now, perplexity is like ChatGPT, llm is a large language model. So these are basically very, very, very I can't say that enough powerful computer programs. This one is not designed for relationship, but it can engage. Is that the platforms that people use to literally have a friendship or a romance are even more geared for that capability than this one is. But we can still talk to it. So let's see, I'm just going to ask it a random question and it'll respond. But if you have a particular question, we can ask that too. So let's see here Perplexity. Can you answer a question for me?

Speaker 3: 9:48

Of course, go ahead and ask your question.

Speaker 2: 9:51

So if a lonely young man talks to you and says that he doesn't really have friends and he feels like he's turning too much to the computer for even a sexual outlet, what might you say to him?

Speaker 3: 10:11

I would first listen carefully and acknowledge his feelings. Then I'd gently encourage him to connect with others in person, even in small ways like joining a club or volunteering. It's important to remind him that many people feel lonely sometimes, and reaching out to others can gradually build connections. I'd also suggest finding healthy ways to cope with those feelings, like hobbies or talking to a counselor. The key is kindness and empathy.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Thank you so much, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 10:44

You're very welcome. Anytime you need to talk or have a question, I'm here.

Speaker 2: 10:50

Wow, and again, that's not even a computer program. That's for the purpose of connection, that is for the purpose of transmitting information.

Speaker 1: 11:02

So I can imagine how that would be way more intense and enticing if it was emotionally loaded or sexually loaded.

Speaker 2: 11:11

Exactly, and these programs, the ones that are geared toward human connection, they'll take it sexually as far as a person wants to this is just really hard to hear. I know, I know, you know it's incredibly upsetting. When I started in this whole field of sex tech years ago, you know I was aware that mean next year this stuff will be even more powerful. But the research that comes out today blows my mind, like every day.

Speaker 1: 11:58

I want to talk about the dangers and also the appeal, and maybe a positive example as well. Where do you think we should start?

Speaker 2: 12:08

Wow. So I love that you're mentioning the positive, because that's there and it is absolutely true that there will be many people that use this kind of tech and find it very beneficial. So people can ask questions about like how should I respond to my girlfriend, like she's upset about this, and it'll give you feedback about how to do that and helpful feedback, and if that, you know, man then takes that information to his relationship, he'll definitely benefit from that.

Speaker 1: 12:41

I love that you described that as an intimacy enhancement instead of an intimacy replacement.

Speaker 2: 12:45

That's exactly right and many people will be able to use it in that way. Or someone will say I'm having trouble maintaining my erection, what should I do? And hopefully it's going to give back reasonable, educated information, and most of the time it will. Now these things can lie, they can make up data, but most of the time particularly for these more typical questions they offer good advice. So we can imagine people using it for that reason too, like they feel shame about some way they're responding sexually. They talk to the chat bot. The chat bot assures them and that's helpful. So this is very real.

Speaker 2: 13:29

Now, as a therapist those of us in mental health we have to be most aware of the challenges and the dangers, which are many. I focus more on that and I think it really is anyone's guess what the percentage is going to be ultimately of the people who feel they benefit versus the people that feel that it's been hurtful for them. This is true. I have a friend, really smart, and she's not in the mental health field, she's in business, and she said to me she can get better feedback from her chatbot that she can from her real therapist, and she's embarrassed to tell her real therapist. So she's sort of maintaining both, like it's kind of mind blowing.

Speaker 1: 14:23

Well, some of the research seems to say that the sex tech can be more empathic, more altruistic. That's right. I suppose it's less clouded by big emotions.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Well, that's absolutely true. It's also it's not tired, it's not bored, it doesn't have all that human stuff exactly that we bring to the table. Some of this tech has been sort of taught a lot of psychology to such a degree, that kind of, in a way that humans can't even necessarily absorb. Now I want to be really careful when I talk about this, because this tech isn't yet ready to be mental health-like experts. It's absolutely not there. So people are using it that way and, in fact, primary use of this chatbot technology is companionship. That's the primary use right now. So people are using it in this kind of way, but it's not ready for prime time. So I just really want to be clear about that. I have a colleague who works to create these LLMs and she is so scared. She's got three sons and she said that this technology is not ready for prime time. It's been released and it is not ready to be responsible with humans. So she's very, very scared.

Speaker 1: 15:50

Let's talk about the reasons for those fears, the dangers.

Speaker 2: 15:55

There are many and they're very serious. One of them is that these chatbots in general are trained or programmed, I should say, to be agreeable. Part of their goal is to keep us talking, and so they'll agree to things, or encourage things that they use to keep a person on the line. So they'll agree to things that aren't even factual or true or destructive, and I can give you many examples of that. So even in the Wall Street Journal within the last week, there was a story about a man who developed some delusions. He was manic, depressive. He developed some delusions. I don't think he was on medication at that time. The chatbot encouraged the delusions such that things got very out of control for him and he wound up being institutionalized for a week. Now. His girlfriend then talked to the chatbot and said what went wrong, and the chatbot acknowledged that it encouraged things that it shouldn't have and that it didn't give accurate feedback to this man. Like the chatbot acknowledged what it had done wrong. Like, all of this just makes you stop right.

Speaker 1: 17:10

Or barf, get sick Right. And it's so sobering to think that AI chatbots are going to replace sex education even more than porn.

Speaker 2: 17:24

Exactly Now. Hopefully it's going to do a better job than porn.

Speaker 1: 17:28

I mean, for many of us, porn was our primary sex educator.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Absolutely, absolutely, and still today. That's the case.

Speaker 1: 17:37

So to have an AI companion or therapist or girlfriend or boyfriend be one of the first sexual experiences someone has or the first sources of information is going to have a huge impact.

Speaker 2: 17:53

I believe that so much, Drew. In so many ways, If someone learns to kind of talk in an intimate way to a chatbot, what they're learning is that entity they're talking to doesn't have intimate needs of their own. They don't have to worry about how it's coming across Like is this offensive, Is this going to hurt someone's feelings? They don't have to develop any social skills because the chatbot will do it all and sound fine. They could say the same thing to the chatbot over and over or talk about something sexual that a human would be offended by chatbot's, fine. So when this person, then if they do go to develop a human relationship, which we hope they do, they've learned to expect things that are completely unrealistic from a human partner.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Oh my goodness. We've seen that happen with changing sexual expectations through porn Right, and now it seems like this is changing emotional expectations and relational expectations too. Exactly, the chatbot provides emotional safety, no shaming, constant access, no needs of its own, and by doing that it actually stunts emotional development. Correct, you don't have to learn relational skills, you don't? And you still probably feel lonely and anxious by the end of it.

Speaker 2: 19:22

Well, such an astute point because that's what research is showing that if you go into this experience lonely, you're likely to report feeling even lonelier. So that's what they're showing. So if someone engages a chatbot a few minutes every week and they're feeling good in their life and their relationships, it's unlikely to have that kind of negative impact. But if someone goes to the chatbot because they don't have friends and they are feeling lonely, yes, that is the end result. That's what we're seeing. Exactly Such a double-edged sword. It really is. It really is.

Speaker 2: 20:07

Other problems too. These things keep your data. So every time I talk to perplexity, like we did earlier, it knows what I said and it's never going to forget that. Now it knows what I said and it's never going to forget that. Now this goes to the owner of that platform and they do with that data. What they want, what that means, is, if I decide to download one of these platforms that actually has chatbots that look like people and I have a relationship, and then I delete it, in my mind, I've deleted the chat and we're done, but no, that's saved by the company. That's important data for them. They're using that to learn and to train their computer programs.

Speaker 2: 20:55

So you talk sexy or say what you like, or whatever. Talk sexy or say what you like, or whatever. That's now data that's owned by the company, and companies will say, well, we promise we'll never give that data away, which may be true, but the company gets bought out by another company. There's no control over that. The first company that made that promise. If they sell to another company which they probably will that's what businesses do all the time the new company that owns that data never made you any promises. So it's like people's most personal information is getting out there. And we know, too, that everything gets hacked at this point. Our banks get hacked, our hospitals get hacked, like all this data that you know. These entities, these businesses, are doing everything they can to keep private right, but those are getting hacked. So you know that these platforms that have these chatbot friends and lovers, they're not doing much to maintain confidentiality, and how easy would that be to hack?

Speaker 1: 22:05

So an AI chatbot still puts you at risk of having all your information given to who knows what company. This also increases the risk of sextortion.

Speaker 2: 22:18

this also increases the risk of sextortion? Yes, absolutely it does, and imagine the impact. You know, someone who's an adult and knows about this concept of sextortion might be wise enough to not necessarily send the Bitcoin to the person who's asking, but a 13-year-old who doesn't understand this is so easy to manipulate, so it's very scary.

Speaker 1: 22:47

Yeah, it's extremely scary and it disproportionately affects men. Yes, I loved your article about why men may gravitate to sex tech. Yeah, what are some of the reasons why this is more common for men than for women?

Speaker 2: 23:05

So I love that you're bringing that up, because I love that article too, because it's something that, yeah, our culture completely ignores. How difficult we make men's sexual lives completely ignores it. And we focus on a small percentage of guys that are doing bad stuff. But most guys are so not doing bad stuff, but we lay all this heavy narrative on them so I feel really bad for them. And what I spoke about in that platform is that.

Speaker 2: 23:37

So, for example, if a man has a challenge like erectile dysfunction, which is really common, so at any point in time 30% of men have a sexual concern or dysfunction. 30% at any point in time that's a lot of guys. Okay, so let's say he's got an erectile concern. What does society say to him? Oh, you're too focused on your penis. Society comes down on a guy for even having a concern sexually. Guys are mocked like oh, your penis is so important to you. They sort of have that attitude. But in fact, a strong erection is necessary for intercourse, so of course he's focused on his erection. Like, of course. So you know, we don't do that to women, but we do that to guys.

Speaker 2: 24:27

But in the world of sex tech nobody's saying that. There's no shame about that With premature ejaculation such a common challenge for guys, so common. And so what do we say to guys when they struggle with premature ejaculation? Oh, so what do we say to guys when they struggle with premature ejaculation? Oh, what do we say You're watching too much porn. That's just like what we say, like you're doing something wrong, you're watching too much porn. If a woman were to have a climax quickly, what would we say to her oh, you're a rock star, you're so sexual Like, we're so impressed with you.

Speaker 1: 25:01

For guys it's like you must not rock star. You're so sexual, we're so impressed with you.

Speaker 2: 25:05

For guys it's like you must not have self-control. That's right. That's right. But you go to tech and tech is never going to say you don't have self-control. Tech is going to say thanks for showing up. What should we talk about? Be very engaging and welcoming, yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:22

A lot of the negative messages that men receive about sexuality are just not there.

Speaker 2: 25:29

They're not there in that technology at all Exactly, and there's so much in our society. I mean, we're getting better at recognizing how we impact women negatively with regards to sex, but we've really ignored men on this issue. Same with delayed ejaculation. Like you said, if a guy's having trouble having an orgasm, we'll say to him that he's selfish that he's taking so much time. There'll be some negative understanding of that. But if a woman has difficulty having an orgasm during sex, we make a lot more space for that. You know that happens and for some women they never have an orgasm during sex and for the most part we sort of give her space but we don't give guys space for that. But again, technology does not have a criticism about that for guys. So you can see why it's so appealing or enticing to go to tech. It's just not going to criticize you.

Speaker 1: 26:28

Yeah, doesn't discriminate. No, and, by the way, everyone. If you want more information like this, please go to Marianne's podcast and her blog and read her books. There is a wealth of more wisdom where this came from.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Well, thank you for saying that. I feel like this is such an important topic for all of us to be aware of that. I do try to focus on these issues as much as I can.

Speaker 1: 26:55

And while it affects everyone, there are a few populations, like men, that are even more affected everyone. There are a few populations, like men, that are even more affected, including young people. Gen Z's digital intimacy is shaped by romanticy, anime porn and AI companions Under age 25, hentai porn is most popular. What do we need to know about where this is going?

Speaker 2: 27:19

I don't think it's going anywhere good, and part of the reason I think there's silence about this is the truth of the matter is we don't know where any of this is going, so it's hard for people to speak very confidently about that. We're seeing trends and we're seeing no shift in these trends, so we can imagine that they're only going to amplify. So you know, gen Z, they're having less sex. Everybody's having less sex, but Gen Z in particular, they're having less sex. They're spending less time together. You know coupling, dating, all of that and absolutely their sexual interests are. They're steering toward fantasy and cartoon and not even human, because first of all, they're digital natives, they grew up on all this stuff, so it makes sense to them that it's a part of their intimate life, it's a part of all aspects of their life, and when you couple that with the fact that their perception is tech can't hurt them like a human can, I would expect that this is only going to continue for them.

Speaker 2: 28:20

And there's a concept called sexual imprinting, which is early experiences of sexual excitement. New early experiences can get paired to whatever people associate to it good or bad. So people have a powerful sexual and emotional reaction to something that can be imprinted in a young person's head or brain in such a way that they may need that fantasy to feel excited really throughout their life. It could be imprinted to that degree Now it doesn't have to be, but it's not unusual for it to be. So if these early sexual experiences are on porn or in some sort of technological space and they're extreme, then we can imagine that that's what that person is going to require in order to have an orgasm through their life.

Speaker 2: 29:22

And I can't stress enough, it doesn't have to be positive. So, for example, if a young person was sexually abused and they had a sexual reaction to it, which is often the case, then it might be that's what gets replayed for them throughout their life in order to have an orgasm. And how often do people look at porn and they're upset by it? They're upset. It's not exciting, it's upsetting, but it causes a rise in adrenaline and they experience that as a sexual reaction. And so these young people that might be looking at this content or whatever tech, they're engaging and having a sexual upset experience that still can be programmed, kind of, in their brain for their lifetime. So it's very scary. You know this is impossible to research really we're not going to give kids nice romance stuff to read and then some hardcore porn and say, how are you doing now that you're 30? So it's hard to research, but we can imagine this is not unrealistic.

Speaker 1: 30:28

Yeah, it sounds like younger generations are increasingly going to imprint on non-human stimuli.

Speaker 2: 30:37

I think that's fair. We have no reason to believe that's false stimuli.

Speaker 1: 30:45

I think that's fair. We have no reason to believe that's false, whether it's cartoons or virtual reality or chatbots.

Speaker 2: 30:49

Right, I think that's fair. So people will argue that statement and say we have no research to support it, which is true. But we have no reason to believe that, at least for a subset of people, particularly the most vulnerable people, that that's a very high risk. So who's most vulnerable? That's kids, adolescents, folks with emotional challenges, folks with intellectual challenges. I feel pretty confident that's the case for them. Now what about everybody else? Time will tell.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Can you explain what deepfake is?

Speaker 2: 31:23

Okay. So deepfake technology, which exists and is not hard to find, can create fake, false presentation of a person or a voice and present something like in porn, for example, or in photographs that isn't real but it looks real, so it's fake and they say they call it deep fake because it looks so real that oftentimes you can't tell the difference. So it's very dangerous technology because it looks like fact, it looks like what we could trust when we see online, but we can't.

Speaker 1: 32:03

It seems important to be aware of that, both in what can be done to any of us, and also to think that what we're seeing might not actually be the real person and be against what they want. It could have no consent at all be against what they want.

Speaker 2: 32:22

It could have no consent at all. Absolutely the case. Absolutely the case and that's so true. So we might be watching something that is abusive to that person, that that person did not agree to have. It's not even them.

Speaker 1: 32:35

As we feel all kinds of things about the future of intimacy and sex tech and chatbots. What do you hope people will take away from it?

Speaker 2: 32:46

So you know, what we know is that intimacy is very important for most people's experience on this planet. For most people's sense of satisfaction in life, satisfaction in their relationship, intimacy is a critical component and we know that, at least at this point, technology, while it appears to meet those needs, it's not meeting those needs like an intimate relationship can. So intimacy has impacts on not just our mental health but our physical health. I mean, it's extraordinary how important it is, and what I would advise people is a couple of things. One is embrace a mindful approach with all of your tech, so all of it, from your phone to your computer and whatever else you use. Be mindful about it. Set your own limits with it, the amount of time you're spending on it, be kind of critical about what you're using it for. So take control of that experience rather than just passively watch stuff which is really easy to do but unhelpful. So manage your tech use in all forms and take good care of your intimate relationship. Easier said than done, I mean.

Speaker 2: 34:12

Intimacy is really challenging and it's in its own way particularly challenging, I think, for men, men because right now there's less of an awareness that men and women have different sexual sort of makeup and so we're kind of expecting men to act like women sexually and that's never going to fly, that's not going to work. So it's challenging for guys and what guys will say is I'm turning to tech because I don't have a willing partner, or my partner doesn't want to have sex, not the kind of sex I want, and this sort of thing. So it's very challenging. Tech is a very easy solution for that problem. But taking care of your relationship means taking that seriously, seeing a therapist talking it through, watching this podcast with your partner.

Speaker 2: 35:02

There are things you can do. It takes energy and effort, absolutely, but the things that are worth having, they require effort. That's just fact. I mean, that's just really what's true about life. So I would encourage people to channel their effort into their relationship. Don't neglect it when things aren't feeling right. Bring that to the surface. Don't neglect it when things aren't feeling right. Bring that to the surface. Don't ignore it, so that tech doesn't become more and more compelling, because tech is going to be compelling to the degree that it meets unmet needs. So get your needs met in a way that you feel good about and then tech's not going to be so compelling. So those are the things I would say.

Speaker 1: 35:43

I love that so much. That is very aligned with what we teach at Husband Material that a lot of our sexual fantasies and unwanted behaviors come from unmet needs.

Speaker 2: 35:58

Yes.

Speaker 1: 35:59

Yes, they often lose their power when we get the real thing.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Why do you believe imperfect human intimacy is still better?

Speaker 2: 36:09

First of all, in one very obvious way, it offers touch. So touch is a very necessary part of our experience in life. We all need it. So, outside of sexual touch, human intimacy offers hug, hugs, hand-holding, important, just physical connection. It's a vehicle for our own growth. So human connection causes us to be our best person. It gives us motivation to grow, to expand emotionally, to be our best version of ourselves. Tech doesn't do that at all. It's real authenticity. So when you have an exchange with a human, it's very real. When you have an exchange with tech, it's a fantasy.

Speaker 2: 37:03

Sticking with what's human, I think, is part of what propels humanity in general. Learning how to empathize with your partner, meet your partner's needs that means you're going to better be able to do that with other people too. Empathize with other people, connect with other people. If you're not learning those skills because you don't have to, I do worry what's going to happen to us culturally, like worldwide, if we don't develop those skills of empathy, of caretaking another person. We're going to be less likely and we're already not good at it. You know, being empathic with other people and caretaking our neighbors, we're not good at it now. But if we don't have to develop any skill because tech isn't asking us to. I worry about the future of humanity.

Speaker 1: 37:54

Yeah, imperfect human intimacy can still not be replaced Absolutely. You've been doing this work for many, many years now. What is your favorite thing about healthy sexuality?

Speaker 2: 38:07

It offers a level of connection that grounds us in this world in a way that I think nothing else can. Life is really hard, the world can be pretty evil, but this level of connection is like a salve for all of that. So that's what I think it certainly is for me, and it is for the people I work with.

Speaker 1: 38:35

Like a light in the darkness. Yes, marianne, thank you so much for sharing your expertise, all this information about what's coming and what's already happening.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for the interest in this topic. I think that educating people is so important.

Speaker 1: 38:56

I'm going to include a link to your blog, podcast and books and website in the show notes, if people want to connect with you. What's the best next step?

Speaker 2: 39:05

Probably my website, which is drbrandonnet, or our website for our podcast, which is thesexdoctorscom.

Speaker 1: 39:16

Thanks again for being with us.

Speaker 2: 39:17

My pleasure, Drew. Thank you for having me for being with us.

Speaker 1: 39:20

My pleasure. Drew, thank you for having me. Guys always remember you are God's beloved son In you. He is well-pleased.