Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey, my name is Drew Boa. I'm the founder of Husband Material. Thanks for listening to my interview with Rick Manabat.

Speaker 1: 0:25

If you've ever been curious about the story behind your sexual fantasies or your sexual arousal template, today you are going to hear some really insightful, mind-blowing examples of how our sexual surface symptoms and the things we're attracted to in porn are actually not about the porn. They go much deeper. With surprising specificity and particularity, rick is going to share personally and vulnerably, from his own story and the stories of many clients that he's worked with, and what it looks like to not just deal with the behavior of addiction. Like to not just deal with the behavior of addiction but truly accessing the deeper needs and desires and longings that are driving us. Enjoy the episode. Today we get to hear from Rick Manabat, who's a licensed professional counselor here in Colorado Springs and he also has an office in Chicago. Rick is a certified sex addiction therapist and he is the founder of Pneuma Counseling. Welcome, rick, thank you, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:28

You're welcome, Rick. Why are you passionate about this work?

Speaker 2: 1:32

It's part of my own story, I would say I am the child of a sex addict. My dad, I would say till his dying day, was still in his addiction. His dying day was still in his addiction. My dad passed away in 2013 and I found out he was still sleeping with prostitutes at his like into his like seventies and eighties, which was amazing. I could not believe that. You know, I'm the child of a sex addict and so he exposed me to pornography very early.

Speaker 2: 2:03

I was born in the seventies and so in the 70s, you know, we didn't have the internet, but they had other things, and so my dad had a ton of magazines. When my parents were married, he would have things out, but my mom was always on him like hey get, don't get that out of the, you know, don't leave that out. And so he had it hidden. But then when they divorced, which was like around four, four or five years old, he lived in an apartment and he didn't hide it, it was out in the open, and so I was exposed to pornography probably, I'd say around maybe seven and so he would leave magazines out, and then eventually, video came out back in the day it was beta max, and then VHS came out, and so I would go to his apartment and I would go into the kitchen cabinet where I would need a bowl for cereal, and right next to the bowls were all his porn.

Speaker 2: 3:03

In addition to him exposing me to porn, he molested me as a kid. He would basically masturbate me. Looking back at my childhood, I remember feeling like I was very sexual. But now that I'm at this stage in my life, I look back at that and I know that he awakened my sexuality way too early, and so that was the beginning of my journey the other part of it, I would say. I got married very early, at the age of 23. After two years of marriage, my wife at the time told me that she had cheated on me, and we tried to keep that marriage together for a little while, but after some time it just did not. It did not stay together, and at that point in my life I was a. I was a Christian, but because of the divorce I was so angry at God and I was just like I'm done with you, I'm, I don anymore. And what I did instead was I said yes to anything. I said I'm going to do whatever I want to do I said yes to anything my flesh wanted.

Speaker 2: 4:14

I said yes to a lot of sex. I got into porn. I watched porn probably every day, if not three times a day. I said yes to drugs and I did that for two years and during that time, looking back, that really hooked in the addiction to this stuff. And so why am I passionate about it? Because, one, I know it very familiarly, I'm very familiar with it.

Speaker 2: 4:42

And two, I know how hard it is to stop, and my heart is just for, for those guys who struggle with this, and because I know that struggle, I know it personally, and so that's what brought me to this, to this career and to this certification at CSAT. I want to, I want to work with these guys and I've worked with women too, but most of my clients are men and I want them to experience the freedom of not having to do this anymore.

Speaker 1: 5:10

I just want to pause and say thank you for your vulnerability. Yeah, yeah, and it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 5:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Not only that you survived, but that you've learned how to thrive, and you know how hard it is. I hear the compassion in your voice.

Speaker 2: 5:28

Yeah, it's hard work, no doubt, but there is, I would say, there is hope.

Speaker 1: 5:35

And one of the things that we have found helps the most with getting deeper, lasting freedom from porn and other types of addictive behavior is really knowing your story. If somebody hears that and they think my story, what's that? How would you explain it?

Speaker 2: 6:01

Yeah, you know, in my training as a CSAT I remember it was in the first module A module is a block of days where we get trained and a module is usually like three to four days. And I remember in the first module in our training that they said to us they said when someone comes to you and they're walking in your office and they're struggling with a sex addiction or unwanted sexual behavior, that person is acting out a story in their behavior. And it's going to be your job as the therapist to help uncover the story and help the person to stop acting out the story and start talking about the story, start working on the story. In my training they gave us a few things. They would say things like you know, to help uncover the story, you want to understand the person's arousal template. That's the term they use. So what is the thing that turns a person on? Because that could have a direct correlation to the story. That's what they gave us.

Speaker 2: 7:07

But then this guy came along you guys are all familiar with and your audience is familiar with, named Jay Stringer, and he wrote a book about this and I feel he broke it wide open and so after kind of encountering his stuff. I really took that and ran. Basically there's a few examples that come to mind for me that really describe how story is connected to this behavior. This was not a client of mine. I was part of a group of CSATs and sometimes they would bring cases to our call and this one colleague of mine brought a case and and he he said he got this new guy. His behavior had to have three components to it. He said he would masturbate, he would smoke a cigarette and then he would have to take a dump and all three had to be in place. So he, you know, my colleague brings us to our session and we're all like scratch our heads, like what in the world is this?

Speaker 2: 8:14

Well after this guy worked with my colleague for a while, what he uncovered was when this client was younger, he attended some sort of boarding school, and in the boarding school he would maybe get in trouble, and then what they would do to punish him was they would make him eat his own feces Horrible, right. And so what this client was doing, he was recreating his own trauma. I mean, think about it. He would take a dump there's the feces. He would stick something in his mouth the cigarette but instead of pain and trauma he was trying to bring pleasure out of it by masturbating. That was the story he was acting out. And so once we uncovered that, I guess my colleague that's where he focused the work and focused on that. That will impede the success of someone beating a sex addiction. The four things, in no particular order, would be not enough structure, unresolved trauma, still keeping secrets and not having a good first step, which is the 12th step of admitting you have a problem. And so this guy's trauma was the thing that was getting in the way, so that needed to be resolved.

Speaker 2: 9:46

Another example of story would be a client that I had. This was a client I had like a number of years ago he came in and I just started getting to know him and I just said, hey, how did you discover porn? And he said, oh, some friends of mine told me about a website and he came home, typed it in and he said, instantly hooked. He was just like what is this Like? It was like a whole new world to him. He said this, though. He said eventually I gravitated towards something specific within that world and I said, oh, what is that? One rule of thumb in this work is that everything has meaning. Nothing is just. You know, when a guy says, oh, I just like watching boobies.

Speaker 1: 10:34

Right, it's not about the boobies. There's a symbolic significance here.

Speaker 2: 10:38

There's always symbolism and meaning in something. So he said, when he said I gravitated towards something, my ears perked up. I said what is that? And he said, oh, webcams. And so, in my ignorance, I said oh, you like watching people have sex live? He's like no, no, no, no, no guy.

Speaker 1: 10:58

Again meaning.

Speaker 2: 11:00

So immediately I'm becoming very curious about this and I said so what is it? What is it about that? He's like oh man, I love watching a woman pleasure herself. I said okay, and he said but then he said this but what really turns me on, he's like you'll be in a room, a chat room, and she'll pick you and then you get to tell her what to do. He's like that's the best. And and I'm listening to him share this and and and, for whatever reason. In my curiosity, I asked him. I said hey, where in your story have you felt like a burden?

Speaker 2: 11:41

And he looked at me and his eyes got really big and he said I've always felt like a burden. And he looked at me and his eyes got really big and he said I've always felt like a burden. I said, tell me. He said, well, I was adopted. I was like, okay, and he said, you know, but I resolved it.

Speaker 2: 11:55

He's like I met my biological mother. I found out that she was a drug addict, I found out that she was a prostitute, and he said you know, I know that her giving me up for adoption was a very loving thing to do. And I said, okay. He said, but the home that I grew up in and the family that raised me, you know, from being maybe he was a crack baby, I don't remember, but he's like you know, I had a lot of problems. I had a learning disability, I had all these issues. And he said my family would be taking me to this specialist and taking me to this doctor and I had to go to this appointment. I had to go to this you know workshop and learn this thing.

Speaker 2: 12:37

And he's like I've always felt like a burden to them. And so I said to him I said, you know, I think this is what's going on. I go you're trying to fix this feeling you have about yourself of being a burden. I go think about it. When you are able to tell that woman on the other end of the computer what to do, is she burdened by you? No, she's pleasured by you and that feels so amazing to you. And at that point he was just like his, his like head probably exploded and and and drew. That's where we worked, that's where we focused all our work and as we would resolve that and that would start to change the need to seek that out from other women on the internet.

Speaker 2: 13:28

It wasn't it wasn't necessary anymore, and so that's what I'm talking about. When it comes to story, like everyone has a story In my world, there's a term we use called trauma reenactment. It's like we're almost reenacting our own story in our behavior and trying to fix it or resolve it.

Speaker 1: 13:50

So just focusing on the sexual surface symptoms is a losing battle, like we got to get underneath those surface level attractions and urges to the deeper stories.

Speaker 2: 14:06

When we try to uncover story, we're looking at a few things. If a guy's coming in for porn, I want to know what kind of porn he's into. What is it? What's the thing? Everyone looks for something. They're all looking for something. Sometimes you can go about it through their fantasy, and it doesn't even need to be sexual.

Speaker 2: 14:24

I had a client once and it doesn't even need to be sexual. I had a client once. I asked him. I said what's your fantasy?

Speaker 2: 14:28

He said playing in a football game and throwing the winning touchdown, and then everyone like lifting him up and parading him around, and this guy had a very low view of himself. He was the youngest of like four. He was the only boy. His sisters used to shame him and put him down. He always walked around with a lot of guilt, and so he wanted to be celebrated, and his acting out depicted that too, and so that that was the story he kept playing out. He just wants to be celebrated, wants to be celebrated, and so, yeah, you can approach this in many different angles, but, but the main ones would be through like, like, if someone's into porn, what? You can approach this in many different angles, but, but the main ones would be through, like, like, if someone's into porn, what are you into? And if not, ask, ask the fantasy. I mean I have other examples of fantasy.

Speaker 2: 15:16

So I had a guy and his fantasy was, he said like he would come home from work, maybe open up his apartment door and soon as he walks in, a woman or the woman is on her knees naked, basically saying, take me, he said.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Or I walk in, close the door, put my keys on the little table here, walk into my bedroom and she's naked on the bed on all fours and you know, her butt's facing me and she's facing, she's turned facing me and she's like take me. And when I heard that, I heard submission. And so when I went looking into this guy's story, what we uncovered is he had a father. His father was just, I mean, he was a Ivy League grad. He played, I think, in a professional sport, I don't know if it was baseball or football. Nothing this client could do was ever good enough, and there was this deep control that his dad had on him and so he never felt control. So he would seek out submission from women to feel like he had control. And so again there's the story playing it out again time and time again.

Speaker 1: 16:29

And each one is different. Each one is unique. Yes, we can't just assume that a certain fantasy has a certain cause.

Speaker 2: 16:37

No, no, no.

Speaker 1: 16:39

I love the word you used curiosity. I know for many of us, curiosity has felt like the problem. That's what gets me into trouble. But You're talking about it a different way.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Yeah, you know, when you approach this struggle of sex addiction with story and curiosity, to me it takes away from the pathology of it if I could use a counseling term, pathology of it if I could use a counseling term. Or it takes away from the sinfulness of it Because it starts to all make sense.

Speaker 1: 17:15

Sometimes guys feel like this is not just sin, it's the worst sin in the entire world and I'm the worst person in the entire world.

Speaker 2: 17:24

I've heard that many a time. You know what my answer to that is. I usually have two answers.

Speaker 2: 17:29

If we're talking sin, if you look at the Gospels, jesus encountered many people. When he would encounter a Pharisee, he talked to him a certain way. He was very harsh. I mean, I always like to say he ripped him a new one. He just despised how they would hold these rules over people and make people feel so oppressed by them. But when he encountered someone who had been caught in adultery or someone who had five husbands and the one they're with now was not their husband he didn't talk to him that way. He spoke truth, go call your husband. But he also was very gracious. And sometimes I think guys including women in this too when we fall into sexual brokenness, we respond to ourselves like as if we were Pharisees, and we should be responding to ourselves like the woman at the well or the woman caught in adultery. You know the other thing I say too. I love this verse. I think it's in Romans and it says it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance, the kindness not hitting you over the head and saying you horrible sinner.

Speaker 2: 18:43

Hitting you over the head and saying you horrible sinner, why won't you stop this? So when we fail, god is kind to us to make us stop and turn around. He's not hitting us over the head, and why don't we do that? And so when I hear a guy kind of hard with himself, I'm immediately correcting that and I'm like no, that's not going to change you. Shaming yourself never changes behavior. I'm sorry, it's never worked.

Speaker 1: 19:08

It just fuels the fire of feeling the need to act out again.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Yeah Right, it perpetuates the message that I'm a piece of doodoo and you know, doodoo does as doodoo does.

Speaker 2: 19:22

Yeah. So I have this client who came in and he had gotten caught by his wife and when he came in, you know, I started doing my thing and just asking them about what's going on and what's your addiction. And so he was into porn, but he was also into other stuff. And then he said he says that he had a kink, that's what he called it and he said he was very ashamed of it. But before he could even start to talk about it, he's like this. I feel so shameful about it and so embarrassed about this.

Speaker 2: 19:57

I immediately wanted to be very gentle. I said okay. I said can you just tell me what it is? And so he said that what he's into is porn or sexual kind of acting out that involves breastfeeding and releasing, you know, ejaculation inside of a woman. Again, I became curious.

Speaker 2: 20:19

I said what is it about that? I said what does it mean? What does it represent to you that you know that, you see this, you know a woman lactating and you able to suck on her breast, so to speak. And he said well to me. He said to me, it's the, it's the most intimate, it's like the most intimate thing to ever do. And I said okay, and so, as I got to know this guy, what he shared with me about his story is he grew up in a home. He came, his parents were married but then eventually got divorced and he had a mother who what he refers to as like the Catholic guilt, and she would just there's a term that he grew up believing about himself and it was a dark soul. You're a dark soul, so anything that he ever wanted was bad. If he started to like a girl.

Speaker 1: 21:15

It was bad.

Speaker 2: 21:16

You're a dark soul. That's evil, it's sinful. And so he grew up in this home, where the one person he could get comfort from was not safe, and so he learned to hide, like, hide, like he would never share anything about himself, and when he did and tried it out, it would become weaponized against him. And so he found this world of pornography and that became his, his escape. And and then he found this world of like, meeting people online who are also into, you know, breasts and lactating and all that stuff. And then, when he got caught, it all came out and he even shared this with his wife.

Speaker 2: 21:57

As we began to work I wanted to work on this trauma, you know he started to share this kink of his with his wife, and what happened was his wife was like hey, do you want to try this, this kink of his with his wife. And what happened was his wife was like, hey, do you want to try this with me? And when she was open to it, he was like blown away. He's like, oh my gosh, I can't. I can't believe this. Like, this is amazing. And so he started to do that with her, like he would suck on her breasts, like like he, like he would. How his acting out was Again as I worked with him the hiding really was like he never felt known, never felt understood, never felt seen.

Speaker 2: 22:36

And so I, we started working on that Like how could you start to do this with your wife to be more known, to be more seen? And so he just started sharing more things about himself, not nothing sexual or, but just like. This is what I like and this is what I don't like, and this, these are my dreams and these are these are my disappointments. And and the more he did that, his wife responded very nicely about it. She didn't like weaponize it against him, she didn't shame him, she didn't say he was a dark soul. And and what happened? One day he came into session and he said that his wife checked in with him. She's like hey, you haven't asked me to suck on my breasts, what's going on? And he said I don't know it's like it wasn't necessary anymore.

Speaker 2: 23:27

So the kink that he thought was a kink was really about wanting to be known. And as he started to feel known, he started to feel really close to his wife, he started to feel more connected to her and the need for the kink started to go away. It wasn't like needed anymore. The kink started to go away. It wasn't like needed anymore. And so again back to this idea of story. The more you start to work on your story, the things that you thought were so important like your sex addiction and, in this guy's case, his kink it wasn't like a thing anymore to him because he was feeling what he really needed to feel was to feel loved and connected and seen and understood. And oh my gosh, I mean it's been amazing for this guy and so I love this guy's story. I mean it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 24:19

So each of us have those deeper longings and needs, but in the moment of being tempted, we're not thinking about that.

Speaker 2: 24:30

Yeah, we're thinking that this is the most important thing and this is what I need. And really, if you dig deeper, it's not really that I always tell guys. You know, when it comes to like a sex addiction, think of it like a tree. You know, we see the branches, we see the leaves. That's the porn, that's the masturbation, that's the kink. But the root of the tree, which we don't see, is something totally different and that's what we got to. The root of his tree was really deep down. He wanted to feel known, he was looking for intimacy and he found breasts and lactation, as that's the most intimate thing. But what he didn't realize is it's no, it's feeling known. I always use the illustration of the garden. In the garden, Adam and Eve, it says, were naked and unashamed and I believe they were literally naked.

Speaker 2: 25:23

But I also believe there was a spiritual nakedness and the spiritual nakedness was like you see me, you see everything and I don't feel bad what you see. And Eve felt the same. She's like my husband, sees me totally, completely, and I don't feel ashamed of who I am. And that was the intimacy that they shared in the garden. And then, you know, sin ruined everything. And now we have you know, sin ruined everything and and now we have, you know, sex addiction. But really we're all trying to meant to get back to the garden of, of being completely seen for who we are, all our faults, all our, all our dreams, all our nightmares and and still be accepted without shame and and when we are. We don't need porn anymore. We don't need sex addiction.

Speaker 1: 26:11

We can outgrow it. Yeah, we can Totally Thought about a deeper internal spiritual, emotional nakedness. That reminds me of the phrase into me see, oh, into me see, okay.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Okay, that's a first for me. I never heard that. Can I steal that yeah?

Speaker 1: 26:31

you can.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Okay, that's exactly what it is. That's what intimacy is. You know, you ever go on a retreat and they have you fall backwards and people catch you. It's like that. It's like you're falling backwards and you're hoping that this person is going to catch you and they do, and then you're like, oh, that felt so good.

Speaker 1: 26:51

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 26:57

Great question. So what your listeners may not know about me is I was born missing my right arm, being born with one arm. The nice thing about it is when you learn how to do everything very early on. So I learned how to ride a bike with one arm. I learned how to play catch with one arm. I like to joke and say I learned how to pick my nose with one arm. But the challenge I grew up with was not that I couldn't do anything, because, interestingly enough, I was very gifted athletically and, funny enough, I played every sport that required two arms. You know, you think I would have played soccer. Nope, did not play soccer. I played baseball, I played football, I played basketball, I played floor hockey Everything that requires two arms. I played that sport and I was actually really good. The challenge I faced growing up was people's assumption about me, and so you know, when people meet you, drew, they typically might not assume too much about you.

Speaker 2: 28:03

You know, they see you they see you're tall, they might assume oh, he must've played basketball. You know that'd be it for me. They would assume Rick can't do this, and so that was like a battle I grew up facing I would. It's like I always had to prove myself. I have stories of like people just assuming I couldn't do something, and so that played out in my addiction and this is not necessarily in my addiction, but you know, when it came to women, I typically would pursue the prettiest girl in the room and I would get them. I would get the prettiest girl in the room, but the prettiest girl in the room wasn't always the best girl in the room and I would get them. I would get the prettiest girl in the room, but the prettiest girl in the room wasn't always the best girl in the room. She, she was not the greatest you know, not the nicest.

Speaker 2: 28:48

But in my mind I thought oh, if Rick is with this guy, this girl then what does that say about him? And so I was acting out this insecurity of like having to prove myself.

Speaker 1: 29:01

It was like I can do this yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:03

Yeah, like cause, if Rick can get a pretty girl, you can, you can do anything. You know, when I look back at that I kind of shake my head and be like, oh my gosh, but but it makes sense. And so when I got into therapy, I uncovered this about myself. I uncovered that I believe that I'm inadequate and so my, my addiction reflects inadequacy. If we're talking arousal template, like I mentioned earlier, I would look for porn with the prettiest girl in the porn video. You know she had to have a very, very pretty face. And so again, that was.

Speaker 2: 29:37

I was acting out this insecurity of feeling inadequate, because if I could get the prettiest girl, what would that say about me? When I started to uncover that, I realized that about myself and then I became aware of it, like, how does it play out? And so one thing I would say is the transition from the winter to the summer was always a hard thing for me, because one in the winter you're wearing a long sleeve shirt, so my arm was not showing. People sometimes wouldn't even realize it. They're like, oh my gosh, you're missing your arm. They wouldn't even realize it. But then when the summer comes, we change our clothing from long sleeve to short sleeve. So there's my arm in all its glory standing out to the world, and that would be like really it'd be kind of hard for me. But as I started to work on myself, I was just at this point of like you know what, I'm not going to care anymore.

Speaker 1: 30:29

I'm not going to care.

Speaker 2: 30:30

Like I can't do anything about it. This is it. I'm going to have to accept this, and so I would just not care about a short sleeve shirt and and and what I noticed when that happened? I actually found myself being able to be myself more with people. I wasn't like performing, I wasn't trying to be something I wasn't, I would just actually be myself. And actually when I was myself, people actually liked it Again.

Speaker 2: 31:02

I started to feel connected. My friendships changed. I mean, I used to have a group of guys that I was very close with at least I thought I was close with but none of these guys were loyal. And as I started to realize these things about myself, I became a little more selective in who my friends were. And the friends I have now they're the most loyal guys. They're so loyal and I get emotional even thinking about it, like I just have these really good guy friends.

Speaker 2: 31:30

And so again back to story. That was my story inadequacy, and it played out in my stuff. And now you know, I would say even in my marriage. I would say my marriage is one of the healthiest relationships I've ever been in, like it's just so good and I thank God for it. My wife is amazing and I wouldn't have noticed her if I hadn't done this work because I would have still been looking for that. You know, prettiest girl in the room syndrome that I had, I would say she is the prettiest girl in the room syndrome that I had. I would say she is the prettiest girl in my room now, like she might not be the prettiest girl in the room, but she's the prettiest girl in my room and that's the room that matters, and so I want to say to your listeners that there is hope.

Speaker 2: 32:16

You have to do the work, you have to know what your stuff is. And again my stuff was. I felt inadequate, and you have to name that. That's so important to name it, because once you name it, then you can see it. You see it play out in your relationships, you see it play out in work, you see it play out all over the place, and then once you see, it, then you can change it.

Speaker 1: 32:37

That's so empowering. Rick. What is your favorite thing about freedom from porn?

Speaker 2: 32:43

There's a number of things that come to mind. If I could say two just having the clear conscience, like you just feel so freed and you're not carrying around the shame and the guilt which then, as a consequence of that is you're connected in a relationship because you're not walking around with the guilt, everyone you know, I would probably guarantee after you act out, you don't want to be around anyone, you want to isolate, you want, you want to stay away from people and freedom, you want to be around people and I love people. So that's, that's the best.

Speaker 1: 33:21

It's the best, especially when you don't have to prove yourself Right.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Oh my gosh, you, you accept yourself.

Speaker 1: 33:30

Amen, yeah, amen. That's awesome, rick, thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker 2: 33:34

It's been an honor and a pleasure. I'm very thankful for being on your on your show.

Speaker 1: 33:42

I thankful for being on your show. I'm so glad we did this. Guys, if you want to connect with Rick or learn more about his practice, you can go down to the links in the show notes and always remember you are God's beloved son In you. He is well-pleased.