Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you for listening to part two of this interview with Andrew Bauman, where we talk about why women do not feel safe in church, what we as men can do to protect them and ultimately, re-examining some important teachings in the Bible, some theological ideas and seeing how Jesus is so different than what we see in our churches today.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Andrew is an author, therapist, husband and leader who has done his own work around sexism and abuse, and he has listened to thousands of women telling their stories, and he's presenting this in a way that's difficult to hear and also absolutely necessary. No matter what your personal beliefs are about men and women, I really think we all have something to learn from Andrew. Enjoy the episode. Welcome back for part two of our conversation with Andrew Bauman, who is the author of Safe Church how to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities. Welcome back.

Speaker 2: 1:28

Andrew, yeah, thank you, glad to be here, glad to talk about this as this is. Yeah, this is near and dear to my heart in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1: 1:37

Why did you start reading and writing about sexism and abuse in the church?

Speaker 2: 1:43

about sexism and abuse in the church. Yeah, I mean, it goes back to my origin story. So my father was a pastor, even prominent evangelical leader. They wanted him to run for political office and yet he also had a secret sexual life, cheating on my mom for 20-something years. And basically somebody found out who he was and kind of threatened you know blackmailed him. So he stole $100,000 from the conservative college that he was the vice president of and paid off the blackmailer and got caught stealing the money. You know, it was just crazy.

Speaker 2: 2:17

So my whole life blows up and I'm seven years old, you know I have no idea, obviously, what's going on. But out of that, you know, my dad tries to get help and eventually my mom leaves with three kids in tow and I became an orphan. My mother goes numb because of the abuse and because of the trauma in her own life and doesn't get the proper help that she needs to recover. And then that slowly set me up for kind of my own addictive patterns, around 12, 13 years old, becoming a porn user myself and then becoming a pastor. And so I begin to mix kind of my objectifying of women with degrading views of oppressive theology and they go in a really weird sense, well together, which is not good, and so that was kind of the beginning of my work. And then kind of realizing, as I'm in ministry, still using dabbling in pornography, like slowly realizing this ministry is not, I can't be as honest as I want to be being a pastor, like there's more for me, and then realizing, okay, I'm going to. You know, so I was only a pastor for a year, year and a half, until I began to change directions to become a therapist and then began to really face myself, tell the truth about my story and do the hard work of redemptive suffering. So that's facing my deepest shame, facing my fears, confronting my story and my own story as a perpetrator. And so that was kind of the origin of the why, and I dedicated this book to my mom just because of what she had to suffer.

Speaker 2: 4:02

Dedicated this book to my mom just because of what she had to suffer and the church's kind of scarlet letter that was put on her of being a single mom of three kids, and so that was kind of the behind the scenes.

Speaker 2: 4:17

And yet in 2018, I read a study called the Elephant in the Valley, which studied sexism in Silicon Valley, which is a male-dominated industry and that got me thinking. Well, I wonder what that's like in another male-dominated industry. And that got me thinking well, I wonder what that's like in another male-dominated industry that I know quite well the church and so that was kind of the beginning of the study for me, and so I developed a questionnaire and got over 2,800 women who worked in the church to fill out the questionnaire and then did in-depth interviews and I really dove in for the last five years in this know, did in-depth interviews and I'm really dove in for the last five years in this topic, ended up doing my dissertation on this topic, then turned it into to a book to make it actually enjoyable to read versus just terrible to read as my dissertation. So, yeah, so that was kind of the you know, setting me on the path of justice and learning advocacy over these past, you know, 20 years, but then really deepening it with this study.

Speaker 1: 5:10

What did your study reveal to you?

Speaker 2: 5:14

Yeah. So there was a lot of big kind of wow moments. One of those was 82% of the women believe that sexism plays a role in their church. So it's in what is sexism? Just simply prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping because of someone's sex. And so 82% of women experience that and believe it played a role in their church. So I heard so many just horrific stories. This one woman we changed all their names, but we'll call her Hannah she was on her church staff and she was a worship leader. And she heard all the male church staff joking about how to increase church attendance and they said well, why don't we require women to wear white t-shirts to get baptized? That was the joke, oh my goodness. And so what do you think Hannah felt about her own body in the midst of that Right Quote, unquote joke?

Speaker 2: 6:13

Rose shared that she felt the church placed responsibility on women for having bodies rather than holding men accountable for their perverse thoughts. So she felt shamed for having a female body. Unfair responsibility was placed on her by men in leadership. Kelly said I have a big butt direct quote. So I would always wear huge skirts to cover my butt because I didn't want men to lust after me. Beth went on to say women could not wear tank tops. I remember working at Vacation Bible School and it was 9,000 degrees in this little country, bumpkin church, and someone said she cannot be on stage. Look, she has a sleeveless shirt on.

Speaker 2: 6:56

So many women shared different forms of discrimination because of their bodies. Different forms of discrimination because of their bodies because, trying to change male arousal rather than addressing the men, they made it the women's issue. And so some of the other big discoveries 62% said they would not be surprised if they heard a sexist joke in church. So I remember growing up and hearing these jokes all the time and they're just jokes. And yet as women confronted these jokes, they were just told hey, just get used to it. One woman said sexist jokes that were very inappropriate and sexual were so common. When I asked the male leaders if they would tell less, I was told men will be men and if you want to succeed in this male profession, you better be okay with it. So, even if women would confront the joking.

Speaker 2: 7:50

And yet research of Dr Thomas Ford from Western North Carolina, western Carolina University. He wrote a study called More Than Just a Joke and what he found was sexist humor increases tolerance of discrimination. In other words, men who tell these jokes are more likely to accept them or participate in outright sexism towards women. And he also found this sexist humor act as a releaser of prejudice for men who already have antagonistic attitudes towards women. So it actually shares what these pastors already believe about women. They already have. Sexist humor acts as a releaser, so it's a balloon right. So instead of popping it, they just slowly let it out, which speaks to who they are. This is what it means of. It's just a joke.

Speaker 1: 8:49

We're using this to actually release prejudice against women While being able to deny responsibility and accountability by saying bingo it's a woman's issue, she just needs to be more okay with it.

Speaker 2: 9:03

It's just a joke. Go, it's a woman's issue, she just needs to be more okay with it. It's just a joke. Some of the other horrific statistics.

Speaker 2: 9:12

Big findings 35.1% of women reported suffering from sexual harassment or some form of sexual misconduct while serving in ministry, or they answered it was complicated. 35.1%. So this is wild. So these aren't just women. 5.1%. So this is wild. So these aren't just women.

Speaker 2: 9:26

Right, I pulled off the street with 16% of them had worked 25 years or longer in the church. 25% had worked 16 years or longer. So these are women on the front lines of ministry that are saying excuse me, our churches are not safe for me, right, and 87% of churches are male led. So we've got a male problem. We've got an issue here, right, we've got to deal with, we've got to confront. And so, as far as stories of sexual abuse, you know, the one that stood out to me was Rebecca and she shared.

Speaker 2: 10:01

As a teenager. They had to wear full modesty bathing suits, so this was full all the way up to the neck, down to the wrists, covered everything. On hot summer days at the lake, her and her sisters would be made to wear these bathing suits and they would go to the lake and their dad's friend would come with them and the dad's friend would tell the dad, I am so thankful that you make your daughters wear these things so I don't have to struggle with lust when I come to the, to the lake, thank you, thank you for protecting, and so she would be applauded Well done. Well, you're protecting your brothers in Christ, well done. That's the way the narrative was posed. What, if it was posed? Excuse me, you potentially have a pedophile coming to the lake with you who is sexualizing your teenage girls, your 13-year-old girls. Who's confronting that man and his pornographic mindset? Rather, we're going to make it about applauding brothers in Christ for protecting modesty when you're making these girls wear these full, you know, onesie bathing suits. But who's calling out, who's confronting the actual perversion? Nobody did, and so here she is, 30 years later, still bearing the scars of an assiduous form of sexual abuse that she was actually applauded for. No wonder why so many women turn on their own bodies. No wonder why so many eating disorders. Right Like, yes, but so much of it comes from what we're doing, what men in power are doing, to actually perpetrate abuse.

Speaker 2: 12:01

So the final big stat was 77.9% of women felt like their opportunity in ministry was limited due to their gender. So this is women that just wanted to be pastors, wanted to do something for God, including your wife. Yes, exactly. Gail said she was kept from being hired as a worship leader, although she'd been filling in for over a year, had a degree in music and a decade of experience. She couldn't be hired because she was a woman. Direct quote even though leadership agreed I was doing an exemplary job and I was extremely qualified. The man hired in my place was a far less capable musician, far less capable administrator and a far less capable music director, but he had a penis Like this is what we're talking about. Another woman said I got a divinity degree from Harvard, but I couldn't find a church in my denomination that would hire me, so I changed denominations to try to find a job. These are the stories, and these are the heartbreaking stories that are in this book that need to. They call us to more.

Speaker 1: 13:17

And I know many of us have different theologies or different perspectives about women in ministry. What are some of the biblical texts and teachings we really need to re-examine?

Speaker 2: 13:27

Yeah, so this is what I believed, right, growing up in the Southern Baptist Church. And it's like if you don't believe what the Bible says, you're going to hell. And what I'm saying is actually no, let's believe what the Bible says, but how we've interpreted them is not correct, is not actually what they say? We have taken these texts and we've put in our own misogyny, our own way of engaging them, and it's not good, not healthy. And so some of the classic texts, the problematic texts that I address in the book 1 Corinthians 14, 34, that I address in the book 1 Corinthians 14, 34, women should be silent in churches, for they're not permitted to speak or submit themselves. As the law says, if they want to learn something, they should go ask their husbands. It's disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. And then number two is 1 Timothy 2, 11 through 12. A woman should learn quietly, with full submission. I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man. Instead, she should remain quiet. So when you read those books, I mean those passages like oh well, that's pretty clear. And yet, unfortunately, it's not clear at all.

Speaker 2: 14:35

So dive into some of these texts. Right? So, paul, he talks about the word Heshua. Okay, heshua, it's translated into quiet, right? Heshua doesn't mean quiet, that's a problem. Heshua actually means stillness. Okay, and Sarah Bessie writes the word quietly here in Timothy. Isn't actually silence, as mentioned in Corinthians. No, the Greek word means stillness More along the lines of peacefulness or minding one's own business. It's not about talking versus not talking. It's about learning in a still way, far from meddling in people's affairs. That changes the verse entirely.

Speaker 1: 15:22

Yeah, women learn to be, still Learn to be still, it's about not gossiping, correct, not about not speaking.

Speaker 2: 15:36

Correct and when you take it in to consideration of the patriarchal culture, that Jesus was in right and it's radical right, like some of the Jewish laws, some of the old. The Greek texts of women hatred, right and then plop the early church into the early church was so pro-women that women were excited. They were. You know. When you look at what Paul talks about with women, I mean it's wild. In Romans 16, priscilla is outstanding among the apostles. Prominent roles Anna, who was named a prophet in Luke 2.36,. Right Philip had four daughters who prophesied in Acts 21. Phoebe was a deacon in Romans 16.1. Juno was outstanding in Romans 16.7.

Speaker 2: 16:23

Like, women are so vital in the early church and the success of the church and leading it right. Jesus tells you know, reveals himself for the first time the woman at the well right, mary Magdalene, literally the most important part of the gospel, the resurrection of Christ. He shows to Mary Magdalene go tell the world Like there's women preachers. This is how we know the gospel right, the way Jesus engages the woman, the alabaster jar. We see Jesus. I think Jesus should be our guide in how we should engage women. That seems wise, instead of taking a few of these scriptures and misinterpreting them. So the word authoritarian the origin of this word relates to abusing or misusing authority. So when we read it like that right, I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. I do not want a woman to abuse have authority over a man. I do not want a woman to abuse her authority over a man. So that actually implies women have authority. And yet the way we've interpreted it, the way it's been written, actually is opposite. Right, when he says go and talk to your husbands about it, that's actually because in the Jewish world you weren't allowed to talk to women in public. That was a law. Right, you had to go. And so they're saying no, as a mutual partner, go and face your husband and talk about it. Like, go with him. Right. And this is where we then.

Speaker 2: 18:02

What I asked for is consistency and interpretation, because if you misinterpret those scripture verses, then you've got a problem with a myriad of other verses. Right, luke 24, 9, john 4, 39, judges 5, 7, exodus 15, 20, esther 7, 3. You've got to contend with all these other verses then where women do have power. Or what about Acts 2, 18? I will pour out my spirit. Both men and women will prophesy, or there's no Greek or Jew, slave or free, male or female. Since we are all one in Christ, we are one. God's Spirit is equally upon us. You know, equality is not a liberal curse word, it's a longing of our Creator, god, and I truly believe that.

Speaker 2: 18:52

And what I think has happened is we've misinterpreted some scripture verses and we've made it the norm, which is mixed in with our own misogyny and our own pornographic way of thinking, to make women less than and for us to retain control. And it's gross. But yet it's not that surprising when I think about how scripture has been used, when you think about the horrific justification of slavery, right when verses were slaves obey your earthly masters, right were used to perpetrate horrific abuse, so much so the slave Bible in 1807, you know what they did? They just removed the story of Exodus. They just took it out. They just took it out, goodness. They just took it out because they did not want them to read a story of an enslaved people reclaiming their power that could inspire black people to break free from oppressive systems.

Speaker 2: 19:54

So that's to me. What's happening here is we've weaponized scripture to continue to retain power. I think a lot of men are afraid. Well then, women will end up doing to us what we've done to them. I'm not advocating for another oppressive system. Oh, now it's time for women to just run the show.

Speaker 1: 20:21

No, I'm advocating for equality and mutuality because we both bear God's image. I love the way you describe how Jesus did that. What?

Speaker 2: 20:33

did he show us about how to relate to women and how to protect women? Yeah, you look at what he said in Luke 4.18, which was his mission and purpose To set the captives and the prisoners of society free under an oppressive Roman rule. Like, okay, that's women. That's, women are the oppressive class in that culture. You know St Augustine. You know he was the first one to separate a woman's non-gendered soul and her sexual body, her sexual body, sinful. So literally women are in a sense split right from from Augustine and it believes like these. These are early. You know Thomas Aquinas women's bodies are biologically and physically defectives, he claims they're inferior in mind, body and and will and must be subjected to male rule.

Speaker 2: 21:21

You have all these church fathers, like these founding fathers, that write some horrific things about women. Right, just horrific. And it's like, oh my gosh, so much of our early thinking in the early church was built on the subjugation of women. No wonder why we're interpreting scripture with this gross lens. It's not a knock against God. I'm reminded of the legend Dr Diane Laneberg who says people are sacred, created in the image of God. Systems are not. They are only worth the people in them, in the people they serve and people are to be treated, whether one or many, the way Jesus Christ treated people. So I speak out against the church, not because I'm mad at the church, not because I hate the church, but because I love it. We have to speak truth. People are sacred, systems are not, and so we've got to address this. Because women are dying, women are being annihilated, objectified, subjected to so much unprocessed stuff and male leaders, and we have to address it. We have to confront this all to common norm.

Speaker 1: 22:41

What are some of the most damaging theologies that we need to avoid?

Speaker 2: 22:51

Yeah, so it comes out of when we misread scripture, right, and we have, of course, these damaging theological understandings, these damaging scriptural understandings. Of course it's going to lead to problematic theologies and problematic teachings when we misinterpret scripture. So I agree with author Kevin Garcia who says bad theology kills, right. So some of the theologies and teachings that I cover in the book are submission and headship, authority, grace and forgiveness, modesty, purity and marriage and divorce. And so you know, when I'm looking at the term headship and how that's been abused, that comes from Genesis 2.

Speaker 2: 23:28

The word ezer, the Hebrew, originally translated to the word helper and we think of it kind of almost like the helpmate, think of it as like hamburger helper, and yet that's not what it means at all. Ezer is such a different word, it's a powerful word. So there's nothing about this word. That means subordination, Originally derived from phrases to rescue or to save or to be strong. The word ezer appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Twice it refers to women. Three times it refers to be strong. The word Ezra appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Twice it refers to women. Three times it refers to people helping or failing to help in life-threatening situations and 16 times it refers to God as our helper and in eight instances it actually means Savior. How different is that than helpmate, right? The word ezer is directly followed by conegdo, which means in front of him or corresponding to him like a mirror image. It has nothing to do with putting another person's lives or goals ahead of your own. It's not about subordination. Helpmate literally would be better translated as Savior, Wow.

Speaker 2: 24:45

And yet when I think about my marriage and what my wife calls me to so many times, she saves me from my own bullshit. She saves me how many times I remember a client literally would read scripture over his wife so she'd submit to his perverse sexual fetish, Submit to me, woman. You know, I think about when Christy and I were dating and I was a pastor and I introduced her to my boss and my pastor, my friend, and he pulled me aside. He said, Andrew, like don't you want more of a helpmate, Somebody that will support you in your goals? Because he knew I had big goals and dreams and I thought about it. I was like no, actually I don't, I want a woman that'll take me on.

Speaker 2: 25:38

I knew enough of my darkness and my Enneagram eightness that I could dominate and steamroll somebody and I needed a strong woman that could call me on my crap and that would face me and take me on. And that, to me, is what a partner is Right Somebody that could run fast. And so my wife, Dr Christy Bauman, like she's a beast and you should have her on. Yeah, I think you're right, she's a beast, and this is what partnership is. This is what like. That's what that means. I want an equal, because I want to be inspired. I want to inspire her. I want a partner who can run as fast as I do, Wow. And yet we've we've interpreted it as something like doormat or something Right?

Speaker 1: 26:25

Instead of a powerful person who can make a big difference in our lives.

Speaker 2: 26:30

Correct, that's just. You know, submission, headship, grace and forgiveness. We've learned to weaponize grace and forgiveness. You know a reminder of Kristen's response. She said after my husband. Kristen's response she said after my husband was abusive and addicted to porn, I was told to forgive that my anger would cause him to do more porn. So I shouldn't get angry that I was a Christian for longer, so I should set the better example. Direct quote Like she goes to her pastor, he tells her. Like she goes to her pastor, he tells her kill her humanity, Cut off what she's feeling right, Completely, spiritually, bypasses everything when really she should not only feel angry, she should feel rage, she should feel betrayal, heartbreak, grief.

Speaker 2: 27:21

But rather than focusing on the abuser and what he did, his abuse, they weaponized forgiveness. And this is what happens all the time. They pressure the abuser I mean the abused to forgive quickly, right, Without actual proper repentance from the abuser. Right. They misquote Bible verses to manipulate into spiritual bypassing. They make it more about the act of doing forgiveness, like getting, almost, like a spiritual point, rather than actually feeling and being with. Moving on is the highest priority. It's a transaction, Exactly, Exactly, Exactly. And that's what weaponizing forgiveness is. And it's a call to cheap grace. It's a cheap form of grace, as Bonhoeffer wrote, and so that's what we're talking about, which is just gross and hard. Modesty purity that's such a common one.

Speaker 2: 28:21

I'm reminded by this tweet from this pastor in Utah. He wrote dear ladies, there's no reason whatsoever for you to post pictures of yourself in low cut shirts, bikinis, bras, underwear, anything ever. Not to show your weight loss journey, not to show your newborn baby, not to document your birth story? Signed your brothers, baby. Not to document your birth story? Signed your brothers. And then the comedian Dustin Nickerson responded dear donuts, there's no reason whatsoever for you to be so delicious. You look so good, you smell so good, you taste better than anything ever. Me eating eight of you and having no self-control is on you for just being the way you are. My character flaws are your fault. Signed your brothers. I just love that response. Right, Blaming donuts. And yet how much is that? Is that what that pastor was saying?

Speaker 2: 29:14

He was telling on themselves that he has a pornographic mindset, and yet I was that guy too. Like, I get it Right. It reminds me of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3.12. Right, the woman you gave me did this. Right, it's like we want to blame women. We want to blame their bodies, their lack of modesty, and yet look at the statistics of sexual abuse. When women are fully veiled, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, right. And when you actually look at scripture, modesty has nothing to do with what we're wearing. That is an American interpretation. It has to do with flaunting your wealth and the women in the early church right that we're wearing fancy dresses and you know fancy jewelry and fancy hairstyles and they're flaunting it. That's what he's Paul's talking about. Nothing to do but our modern sexualized obsession and, you know, pornographic mindset like that's what we're putting into the text. It's insane. So there's just a few of the highlights of kind of how problematic theologies and teachings come out of problematic misinterpretations of scripture.

Speaker 1: 30:33

Absolutely. What role can we as men play in advocating for women and protecting women, especially in church?

Speaker 2: 30:41

Yeah, well, if 87% of men are leaders, it's like okay, we've got to use our power for good. We've got to use our place as deacons, as leaders in the church to advocate for women, to really look deeply into issues of trauma and abuse, to understand you have to do your own internal work. You can't lead others where you haven't gone yourself, right. So if you want to start implementing church policies and safeguards, it's like okay, what? What about you? What have you done inside of yourself? Right, are you at peace with your own sexism, your own abuse, your own issues? Right, and then we can begin to start the conversation. Right. Then we can begin to use trusted resources. We can begin to trust our bodies. We can begin to advocate for women. We can do the basic stuff of yearly abuse prevention, training and criminal background checks and becoming familiar with policies and procedures, open dialogue sessions and what I heard from women over and over. I just wanted representation. I just wanted another woman at the table. I just wanted to. I didn't want to be alone in this right.

Speaker 2: 31:53

One woman shared about she was sexually abused by a church leader and she goes to her pastor and he calls it sex and he blames her for seducing this married man because she was 18 and he was in his 40s. And finally, I guess, in one meeting, the pastor's wife is in the meeting and she says wait a minute, I don't know if we should call this sex. This sounds more like rape. And she was like, oh, just one woman in the room and she felt so seen, and yet they had no understanding of power dynamics that this leader in the church, who also worked at their private Christian school, who was a science teacher, seduced, you know, this young teenage girl who had just become an adult, you know, left the high school or whatever, and but like, oh my gosh, this is horrific, yeah, and this is so normalized. So let's have more diversity in leadership, let's have more women at the table, let's not be afraid to share power.

Speaker 1: 32:56

What are some specific ways that churches can better handle reports of abuse or misconduct?

Speaker 2: 33:01

Yeah, we can't be quiet. So when's the last time you heard a sermon about domestic violence?

Speaker 1: 33:10

Never.

Speaker 2: 33:11

One out of four women will have experience with that. When's the last sermon you heard about sexual abuse?

Speaker 1: 33:17

Never.

Speaker 2: 33:18

One out of three women will experience sexual abuse and men experience sexual abuse. The stats are not as common. It happens all the time. So are we starting the conversation? Are we at least beginning? And if your church isn't, yes, buy this book, share it with your pastor If he's not willing. We've got to do something different. We've got to begin to take steps towards cultivating safety. I know the organization called Grace, godly Response to Abuse in Christian Communities. They do abuse prevention trainings to Christian communities. It's like we've got to begin to create healthier institutions that represent Christ more fully, rather than our own unprocessed wounds.

Speaker 1: 34:07

And protecting those who have been harmed, rather than protecting the image of the church.

Speaker 2: 34:18

Bingo. So many churches want to protect the institution. Well, this would look bad, this would look bad on us and then our giving would go down. We don't want to hurt the mission, yep, and it's so gross, it's so wrong. We would rather protect the image rather than the actual image. Bearer of God. How is that possible? And yet that's so normal.

Speaker 1: 34:49

It's fear and shame instead of love. I mean, andrew, this is heavy, this is difficult to hear, it's difficult to focus on. What would you say to a man who's having trouble digesting some of this?

Speaker 2: 35:03

We can be part of the change. Eating an elephant, one piece at a time, right. So what can you do? What can you do to become an honest man? What can you do to become an authentic man who advocates for women? Do to become an authentic man who advocates for women. What can you do to begin to self-reflect and realize your experience might not be everybody else's experience. Begin to look out of the window of someone else's experience. Begin to listen to women. I listened to 2,800 of them. They told me stuff I didn't want to know. I listened to 2,800 of them. They told me stuff I didn't want to know. I'm not proud of that, but I learned a lot because we need to begin to listen to women and what they're telling us.

Speaker 2: 35:51

But without power, if they're just being told, oh, it's just a joke, who's going to begin to change? This is a man's work, because we're the one perpetrating the harm and the abuse. So I say like, okay, lick your wounds and let's go. Like, let's care for that little boy Heal. Because what does it mean for husbands to lay down your life to your wife, as Christ did for the church? We are called to death. So stop being defensive, stop being reactive. Stop being oh, you know you're hurting me. It's just like, oh my gosh, like come on, like I get it, but that's actually part of your defensiveness that's causing you to not actually go to action Like it's time. It's time that we step into our strength and actually begin to advocate rather than abuse.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Resurrection only comes after a death. Yes, so thank you for leading the way as a man who's willing to die to some of these patterns that were handed down to you.

Speaker 2: 37:10

Exactly, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1: 37:11

You're welcome, Andrew. What gives you hope?

Speaker 2: 37:19

Yeah, I mean. It's obviously the hundreds of men that'll go through our program this year that are fighting for healthier masculinity, the women that are continuing to speak even though they're being maligned and dismissed. It's like okay, people aren't giving up. If I have to feel the weight of this, I didn't have to live it. I'm a white man who's articulate. I've always been in seats of power. It's like I think I can bear this for a little bit. Like I'm not. I haven't lived it my whole life Like these women have. They're much stronger than I am.

Speaker 1: 37:55

It's really eyeopening and I would encourage you guys to get a copy of safe church. You can find it at the link in the show notes. Andrew, thank you so much for taking a stand. Thanks for having me, gentlemen, always remember you are God's beloved son and you, he is well pleased.