Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thanks for listening to my interview with Dr Andrew Bauman about abuse. I just want to acknowledge how vulnerable and brave it is for you to even engage with this topic. It's tough, it's really challenging and it's so important and it's so important.

Speaker 1: 0:43

Andrew is going to guide you in how to acknowledge some difficult truths while also not beating yourself up or shaming yourself, and owning the impact that pornography has had on you and, through you, onto others. You'll hear about the abusiveness of pornography, what it means to be a good, safe man, and why Andrew believes in men, and so do I. Andrew is someone I trust and look up to. I really think you're going to get a lot out of this. I encourage you to listen with an open heart. Enjoy the episode. Today we get to be with Dr Andrew Bauman, who is the author of so many books now, but in particular, today we're talking about this question Am I an abusive man? Based on his book how Not to Be an Ass. Essays on Becoming a Good and Safe man, hey Andrew.

Speaker 2: 1:41

Hey, thanks for having me, man. Thanks for chatting about the book. I feel like it's an important conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:48

It is increasingly important for us to talk about abuse. We need to deal with this. Why are you so passionate about this topic?

Speaker 2: 1:58

Yeah, because for 13 years I used and abused women through pornography use. But, as often it happens, our pornographic mindsets lead into pornographic styles of relating and that bleeds over into how we relate to the world. And so I began to objectify women, began to use women inappropriately to soothe my own wounds and try to heal my own unprocessed trauma, and it led me into not being a very good and safe man. And so, over the years, realizing not all abusers are created equal, right, and so I started working with all these men in my private practice and then getting all this feedback my husband's abusive, my husband's abusive and I'd meet with these men and I had this idea of what an abusive man was right, okay, he's going to punch her in the face, he's going to you know like, and realizing, oh, wow, we have such archaic definitions and then just realize we have to widen our definition so much. And then we have to do it in such a way, without self-contempt, without turning on ourself, without beating ourselves up, and actually begin to tell the truth of wow, my unprocessed trauma is coming out sideways, through entitlement, through how I treat women, through how I engage my wife, through my theological understandings and my use of scripture, whatever it is. It's coming out sideways in all these ways and that is a form of abuse.

Speaker 2: 3:32

In my book, how Not to Be an Ass, I talk about the spectrum of an abuser and it's important to kind of name like, okay, where am I on the spectrum? And I would say 90% of men that I work with fall on one side of the spectrum and I call that the unaware fool. This is a guy who has not done his internal work, he has not looked at his own life, he had not done his own story, integrated into his own body, his own story integrated into his own body. And he abuses, not because he's a bad guy, but because he doesn't even know what else to do. It almost comes out of him. It's in the sludge that we are living in, which is in a patriarchal culture that normalizes sexism and abuse. And we have developed these ways of being and yet we don't even realize how it's impacting how we treat women, how we engage, and so those men are on one side of the spectrum and that's so common. That's so many men that come into therapy, that want to work on it.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Their wives are complaining and once they kind of realize, oh, I can actually heal quickly, I can actually start lifting emotional weights and I can begin to like understand this because I'm not just some archaic, you know, caveman, I'm actually incredibly capable of emotional intimacy, but we've been socialized into not right. And so in our retreats, you know, we'll stare at each other six inches from apart most of the whole retreat and I'm our retreats, you know, we'll stare at each other six inches from apart most of the whole retreat and I'm like, okay, when have you last stared into a man's eyes? Never. Or what is socially acceptable through fighting right, ufc or boxing? We it's. It's about domination of the other versus actually knowing each other. Letting me both receiving intimacy and also learning to engage intimacy through deep connection, and it's like this is. We have to retrain, we have to unlearn these toxic ways of being and relearn healthy ways of engaging so we can become healthier men.

Speaker 2: 5:39

So on the other side of the spectrum, this is much rarer. This is probably less than 10% of the guys that I see, and I call this side the narcissistic coward, and this is a much darker way of relating. There was just a few. I can remember One I thought I remember putting my keys in between my hands because I thought it was going to kill me.

Speaker 2: 6:00

When I walked out of my office at night in the parking lot because I've confronted his narcissism. And then I remember this other guy. I had to get my family out of the house because I thought it was going to come back and kill, kill me and my family. Um, there's a few of those that I have through my practice, and then many more now that I've doing this on a much larger scale with groups, but there's a few that I'm like wow, this is a different level. This is not only intentional. This is morphed into this pathological darkness where evil is here. Evil, really dark things can be used and justified, and this is where that narcissism happens and that abuse happens, but that's much more rare. So there's a spectrum of an abuser.

Speaker 1: 6:47

So if guys are listening to this, they might think well, am I an abuser? No, like I'm thinking about this narcissistic coward. Yet there is a pattern or maybe a style of relating that all of us probably have at some level A little bit of abusiveness, if not more.

Speaker 2: 7:04

Yeah Well, if you're born in this, you know culture. You know American culture in the nineties, right, look at, look at the advertising. I remember some of the ads that would go up like the objectification of women sells products right, it's normalized. Right, Growing up 12 years old and beginning to, you know, have access to internet pornography, it's normalized. Every man's battle, remember this, is everybody's struggles with it. It's become so normalized and yet it is incredibly abusive and we are dishonoring the image of God in the face of the woman and turning ourselves, dishonoring ourselves too, turning into just some caveman rather than actually healthy image bearers of God.

Speaker 1: 7:50

If someone's listening to this, thinking well, yeah, I struggle with pornography and I occasionally masturbate or fantasize. Does that really make me an abusive man?

Speaker 2: 8:03

Yes, and you can own that without crumbling, you can own that without going into despair. We can tell the truth because I truly believe God is truth and so the more we tell the truth, the more we experience God. So, yes, that way of being is abusive. Because you are objectifying, right. If you look at the statistics between pornography and domestic violence, right, it's so normalized because you are slowly teaching yourself women are less than women are here for me to devour and I can make them do whatever I want with a click right. So you're training. This is not intentional. You're not like oh, I want to be an abusive man. You're not even thinking about that. You're thinking of oh, I feel anxious and I want to self-soothe, and this is how I can self-soothe. And we stunt our growth of dealing with hard emotions by this way of self-soothing. But it's harming someone else, it's harming the feminine, and we have to do our work around the feminine.

Speaker 1: 9:07

Yeah, and we also have a lot of guys who are sexually attracted to men as well.

Speaker 2: 9:12

Yeah, it's not any different, right? It's not any different. You are objectifying. You are using men in that way to soothe an unprocessed wound and it's eroticized wounds, and that way to soothe an unprocessed wound and it's eroticized wounds, and so we got to go heal those wounds, and so whether whatever you look at doesn't actually matter, the core is the same. You're running from pain and then you're sexualizing that. So maybe it's we're not so much addicted to sex as we're addicted to running away from our pain.

Speaker 1: 9:47

Yeah, that's so true. You talk about how our violence is related to insecurity and oftentimes these patterns come from deeper fears. Deeper shame, deeper fear. Can you give an example of that?

Speaker 2: 10:03

Yeah, so many times our unprocessed shame is projected outward. Okay, so I see this often in the church around the issue of purity or modesty, right, and so you'll have a pastor who has struggled with porn and has a lot of shame. I can't say it, I'll lose my job. I got to feed my kids, I don't know any other career. I've only say it, I'll lose my job. I got to feed my kids, I've got I don't know. I don't know any other career, I've only done this. I've only been a missionary Like I don't know what else to do.

Speaker 2: 10:32

And we push them towards authenticity, we push them towards honesty. But what happens if they don't do that? Then it becomes a projection outward. So my unprocessed shame of dealing with my sexuality, dealing with my deception, then will come out in a various amount different forms. So I could modesty and tell these women what to wear. Look, I am like it's all a projection. So many popular books that are out are literally unprocessed projections that are then taken and made as gospel norms and then it gets into our theology oh, this is what God is, when really it's like no, this is some dude who never did his work, who never healed his wounds and then pathologized it through writing and said this is the norm, this is every man's battle, this is what we're supposed to do, this is how we're supposed to engage the feminine, and it's completely wrong and we've got to take it back it's completely wrong and we've got to take it back.

Speaker 1: 11:50

So that's a picture of what's wrong. Let's get into what's supposed to happen. What makes a good and safe man?

Speaker 2: 11:56

Yeah. So there's six things that I like to say about what makes a good and safe man. Number one he's self-aware. He knows his story, he knows his wounds and he has humbly owned how those impact his relationships, right. So that's number one he's self-aware. Number two he's aware of safety. Right, he knows when he is safe and he knows when he's triggered. He knows when he's off-centered, when he's allowing his wounded little boy to lead him. So he goes hey, timeout. I'm not well right now. I need to take a break. I need to go for a walk, I need to go shoot hoops, I need to go sing a song, I need to go write some poetry, I need to go journal, I need to go pray I don't care what it is but he knows his inner world and he knows when he's not living, when he's either living out of his wounded child or what I call an adaptive adolescent, and he's not living into his safe, wise self. So he stops and gets re-centered.

Speaker 1: 12:53

I had to do that yesterday, man, I had so much anger and I went down into the basement, found a beanbag and I was punching that beanbag because I know that that needs a place to go.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Yes.

Speaker 1: 13:07

We need to find ways to express our emotions without taking them out on other people.

Speaker 2: 13:11

Exactly, and so that's a way to process clean anger right, without turning into aggression, without actually dehumanizing your wife or your kids or whatever. We need to put that somewhere in a healthy way that does not harm ourself or others. Yeah Right. So number three what's a good and safe man? He knows the difference between anger and aggression, he has learned how to fight clean, right, and this is something I'm still working on all the time of like I want to fight in a healthier way, a better way.

Speaker 2: 13:45

I did it yesterday too. I'm like I had to apologize to my wife hey, babe, like I did not fight clean, I made a snide remark. And that's what I do. I make this snide. Well, that's coming from a young place in me that feels scared. So what did I learn in my family of origin? Assholes to each other to try to gain the upper hand, whoever could dehumanize the other. So we all became very good at articulating my siblings and I, you don't want to fight with us, you don't want to verbally spar. And yet that's my shadow, that's my dark side, because that helped me guard my little wounded boy and get out of there alive. So in a sense, I can bless that part of me and I have to be very aware of how that plays out in my marriage, because I will harm my wife.

Speaker 1: 14:30

So can you give an example of how to fight fair?

Speaker 2: 14:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:35

So how to clean fight? There's all sorts of things. Let me break it down for you in a better way. Number one is you try a soft startup, right? So it's Dr Gottman, based on Dr Gottman's 40 years of research, a soft startup. Hey, babe, are you in a good place to hear a complaint? No, actually I'm dealing with the kids, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, are you you know? Okay, how about tonight after dinner, after the kids are down? Yeah, let's do it then, okay. So when you said this, I felt this and everybody's nervous systems can be settled, versus just kind of we're going through life where we're balancing all this crazy stuff and then you just drop a bomb and they're defensive and reactive, or you're defensive and reactive. So a soft startup is a great way.

Speaker 2: 15:20

Number two is staying connected to your body. We got to stay connected to our body. Our body's our compass. I believe God lives in our body. Right, instead of you know you are this, you are a. You know I feel. Right, I got to. I feel in my body, I feel angry. You know, feelings are normally one word, right Versus I feel you're a jerk. That's not a feeling, that's just a passive, aggressive, slash, aggressive comment, right. We have to be aware, like, what you're thinking is very different than what you're feeling. So remain connected to your body.

Speaker 2: 15:55

Number three avoid extreme language. You always well, you never do this. Everyone else does it, right. No one does it right. Using extreme language is almost always dishonest and manipulative, right. No one does it right. Using extreme language is almost always dishonest and manipulative, right, because extremes are rarely true, right. So I know you have done this in the past and it is very hurtful, right, like that can be way better than you always, or you never.

Speaker 2: 16:21

Number four stay curious, right, when we lack curiosity towards the other person. So what we do, my wife and I often we're really in a deep place is we'll get six inches from each other's face and we'll fight eye to eye, face to face, and it sucks, but it helps us keep each other's humanity and stay curious, rather than some of our darker fights are when we're not eye to eye and we're just in passing, because we lose each other's humanity. We lose each other's, you know, but staying eye to eye keeps us grounded, keeps us connected to our own bodies and to their body. Right, and then we already talked about this. Number five knowing the difference between anger and aggression. That's how you can fight clean. So those are just some of the tips that I address in the book.

Speaker 1: 17:09

These practices are so valuable. I encourage you guys to choose one and try it out.

Speaker 2: 17:14

Definitely A few other steps of becoming a good and safe man. We've got to be aware of the other. Right, this man can see the other and can be emotionally present while remaining kind in the midst of conflict. So if you do that inner work right, if you become self-aware, being a good and safe man, you can be aware of the other. Oh, my partner, you know she's in her inner child, she's in her wounded child. She's not well right now. Let's take a break. Let's come back to this.

Speaker 2: 17:47

I can be kind to you because I have learned to be kind to myself. Which is number five of a good and safe man is you've embraced kindness to self and to other, and so when you can give yourself kindness, you can begin to be kind to your partner, who's also in the journey, hopefully. And finally, the final thing of a good and safe man is he's secure, he is consistent, he is not easily threatened. He knows who he is and he knows why he is, and so that's an important distinction. He knows who he is and he knows why he is, and so that's an important distinction. He knows who he is and he knows why he is. He's rooted in his purpose Cause, when you've done the story work. Out of that comes depth of purpose. I don't I hate. I hate that I have to face my shame every day.

Speaker 1: 19:06

And yet that is where my integrity is. I have to face what I've done 20 something years ago, you know, like engaging women. And yet I lead from that place now and I know who I am, I know why I am. I have purpose because I face my fear and face my shame and that creates deep safety and goodness and integrity in me that people can trust. And when you say being secure in who I am, that's also tied into humility. What's the difference between being humble and being weak?

Speaker 2: 19:19

Well, yeah, I mean, genuine humility is such strength.

Speaker 1: 19:24

I think for a lot of us it feels like weakness, though it feels like man. I'm such a sinner, I just keep messing up all the time.

Speaker 2: 19:30

Right, well, you're also describing like we've confused humility with self-hatred, right? It's just like, oh, I'm so humble and I just beat the crap out of myself with self-contempt, oh, I'm such a piece of crap. And then we get awarded oh wow, you're so spiritual. Oh, he must become greater, I must become less, and we self annihilate and we actually get rewarded Like that's humility. I think that's an incredible form of narcissism. Um, self-contempt, it's not the grandiose type, but it's the, it's the subtle type that literally makes it all about me, cause I'm such a piece of crap, I'm more crappy than you are.

Speaker 2: 20:09

There's such this weird narcissism that's self-deprecating, that actually still isolates you, that makes you distant from your partner, not connected to your partner, and it's a form of manipulation. It has nothing to do with humility. Genuine humility. Holds my glory and my goodness side by side with my depravity. So I can never become too arrogant because I know my sin, I know my darkness, and I can never become too self-deprecating because I know my goodness. And those hold, those are held side by side, and that, to me, is healthy humility that we can trust.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Man that is so good. I feel like in our recovery groups a lot of times we're either hiding or we're just fueling that self-contempt and wallowing in shame.

Speaker 2: 21:02

Yes, very common.

Speaker 1: 21:04

One of my favorite things about how you approach this topic of abusive patterns is saying I believe in men, I want more for men. Why do you believe in men, even while seeing the darkness within us?

Speaker 2: 21:23

Because I believe in myself, because if I hadn't taken this journey, I think back on my story. I've just my story is so rough. I was an orphan, I had no guidance. I'm literally in a psychiatric ward 20 some years ago, you know, until a therapist kind of came into my life and began to father me and take me in and like realizing, oh, I'm so capable, but I was never taught it was. You know, we were church 10 times a week and behaviorisms and but not actual soul development or character development. You know, I developed a charisma as a pastor and people were drawn to me, but I didn't develop character.

Speaker 2: 22:08

I had a hidden life with, with deceptive sexuality and shame, and so it was like so disconnected from actually who I am, whereas now it's like, no, I'm the same guy everywhere and it's so much easier to live that way because I can just be authentic. And now sometimes I can be authentically a dick, but I'm authentic. There's a refreshingness to that that I'm the same guy everywhere and it's like that's part of the liberation. This is much better. And many men, their bodies, they're going to die of a heart attack because they're continuing to live this way. And I see it all the time in men that comes through our program, like your body is screaming at you to live differently. You need a different way of being, and authenticity to me is spiritual. It's God's invitation.

Speaker 1: 22:56

It's so much better and at the same time it's scary. Yeah, like man authenticity, especially listening to what my body's trying to tell me is risky.

Speaker 2: 23:09

Yeah, and I would say it's actually far less risky at the end of the day versus the other way of living, Because the other way of living nearly I almost took my life, led me to near suicide. So though it feels risky, it's actually quite safe.

Speaker 1: 23:28

Yeah, and it's certainly safer for the people in our lives who are affected by our abusive tendencies. Definitely, andrew. What is your favorite thing about this work?

Speaker 2: 23:39

Done with another workshop last weekend, and I just think it's the men that are getting it, that are actually changing their lives, and I can like, oh, like. That to me is the best reward to say, okay, we've got some more guys on our team. I used to be on the other team as an abuser and now I'm an advocate and we obviously I can't do this alone. We need more men. And yet it's completely different than what we've been taught masculinity is. And yet when I look at the life of Jesus and I look at how he engaged women oh yes, Sign me up for that.

Speaker 1: 24:22

Yes, and we're going to get to that in next week's interview on safe church. Yes For now, for anybody who wants to become a good and safe man. Could you say a little bit more about the opportunities to work with you?

Speaker 2: 24:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. We've got all sorts of opportunities as far as intensives and workshops. What we like to say is it's kind of throwing you into the deep end, so it's going to the major leagues and diving in deep as far as your body, as far as your story. We have a very potent four-day men's workshop. Our Level 1 workshop incorporates story work and body work in a very full way and that's kind of our premier program. We offer that every month.

Speaker 2: 25:12

I've got two of them coming up in May and then the other months they're in North Carolina. We have Level 2 programs, which is basically men and women together, women who've been abused and men who've abused, and all weekend they're staring in each other's eyes and engaging their deepest fears and deepest shames of what they've done with the other gender and facing that. We also have another level two group for men, a level two retreat coming up in a few weeks in Yosemite, and so we've got all sorts of groups going on all the time all over the country, and I've got folks from all over the world coming and it's just a powerful, potent thing and I'm so honored to be a part of it.

Speaker 1: 25:52

I continue to hear great things from husband material, men who've attended and I got to visit one time and it is truly remarkable. So I would encourage you guys to go to christianccorg and check out more of Andrew's material. Thank you, thanks so much for being with us and diving into these incredibly vulnerable, sensitive topics.

Speaker 2: 26:14

Awesome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 26:15

You're welcome, guys. Come back next week for a second interview with Andrew, where we are going into the state of the church today, why women don't feel safe and what we can do as men to help protect them. Always remember you are God's beloved son. In you he is well-pleased.