Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you for listening to my interview with Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith.

Speaker 1: 0:24

It's not often that we get to hear a story from a couple who have been through the fire of discovering Matthew's double life and his relationship with pornography and the broken trust all the way to rebuilding their relationship stronger than it was before. I love to hear these stories of redemption and when you listen to them share, you will not only have a sense of hope, but also really practical help. Matthew and Joanna have created this tool called the Intimacy Pyramid, which is a framework for how to heal as a couple, not just as individuals separately, but together, and what that looks like, even when there has been significant pornography, sexual addiction, sexual betrayal. So in this episode, you will learn how to build a foundation for true intimacy and at the very end, matthew and Joanna share a check-in for couples they created called the Honest Connection, which I'm really excited about and I think you're going to love it. Enjoy the episode I am so excited to introduce you all to Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith, the authors of this book Building True Intimacy and co-founders of the Rabsmith team.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Welcome to the show, so excited to be here.

Speaker 3: 1:39

Yeah, really, really pumped to have this conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:42

I was excited to meet you at SILS at the Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit and would love for you to start by telling your stories.

Speaker 3: 1:52

Yeah, we've been doing work professionally now for close to 10 years different, various ways. Um, we got into this specific work dealing with betrayal, sexual addiction, problematic sexual behavior, recovery for couples, specifically mainly because it was our story. We, we um knew we wanted to work with couples. We knew we wanted to have a great marriage. Joanna didn't know that, coming into the marriage, that I was bringing in a decades long struggle with pornography, different types of sexually acting out, and that all came to a head about three years in and really changed our trajectory forever.

Speaker 3: 2:34

And thankful for that because I think we were finding ourselves happy in some ways but really stuck kind of feeling like there was this, this relationship we couldn't have. And so when we started recovery we were scared. We were really unsure of what the journey looked like. Nobody really had a great vision for it. They were kind of like if you make it, congrats, you know. And so we were kind of determined to make it and then, I think, also determined to help other couples make it. I think once we once we felt like we were out of, determined to make it and then, I think, also determined to help other couples make it. I think once we felt like we were out of the woods. We were like how do we make this easier, how do we make this more accessible to couples and for them to have that kind of sense of hope?

Speaker 2: 3:16

early on. Yeah, a lot of our experience of recovery was that there's a lot of great resources for Matthew, very few resources for me and zero resources for us as a couple when we went through recovery, and so it was a bumpier journey than we would have liked and so, as we got, like Matthew was saying on the other side and realized, like this is absolutely possible for couples to heal and thrive after betrayal. But it'd be really nice that there's some sort of roadmap for them, right, and that those first few weeks when they're in utter chaos, right, when that partner is traumatized and they don't know if there's any way out, for someone to be able to kind of show them the path out, and so that's then what kind of led us into developing the intimacy pyramid with Dan Drake. It was kind of we finally saw a structure, kind of a fairly clear and easy structure to understand. This is how you do it. This is how you build healthy relationship and healthy intimacy post-betrayal.

Speaker 2: 4:15

And what we realized in working with couple after couple after couple, both betrayal and non-betrayal couples, is that the building blocks are the same whether or not you've been through betrayal, non-betrayal couples, is that the building blocks are the same whether or not you've been through betrayal. This is just healthy relationship and we just didn't have the roadmap, the tools when we first got married to know how to do that, and so when that honesty broke down, everything else crumbled, and so just such a joy being able to, and an honor to walk with other couples through that journey, help show them kind of that roadmap along the way.

Speaker 1: 4:48

Yeah, a roadmap for the relationship, because many of us are familiar with the individual roadmap.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:57

But what about the couple's road?

Speaker 2: 4:59

Yes.

Speaker 3: 5:00

Yeah, and it's really tricky because you've got two people in very different places and very similar places. Right, you've got somebody who has spent a lifetime of hiding, typically, and a lifetime of really battling shame and really low sense of self, and we're asking that person to step up. We're saying, hey, this relationship needs you in a very, very particular way. We've got a spouse who thought they knew their life, thought they knew their story, who is now having to re kind of learn everything about their marriage, their, their you know their partner, their life, and pick up those pieces. And then we're saying, and at the same time, right, you're going to be married. And a lot of these couples, right, they have kids, they have jobs, they have friendships, they're often in small groups at churches. Right, they're active, they're living a life, and so we recognize that, as nice as it would think to kind of keep these two people siloed forever, right, and it'll just kind of work itself out.

Speaker 1: 6:01

They'll be really good roommates, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:08

We were having these couples be like but how do we pay taxes together? Right, if I don't trust him? Right? We?

Speaker 3: 6:11

had a conversation about where to eat dinner, yeah, and so that was that was really the hope is to say like this this third thing, this relationship, is going to be something you're taking care of from day one. Um, even if you're not doing kind of couples work or couples counseling right, you might be doing some really individual work early on You're still working on the relationship, you're still caring for the relationship the moment there's discovery, because it's you know, if you're committed to that restoration process, it starts day one.

Speaker 1: 6:40

Let's talk about this awesome framework, the intimacy pyramid. Okay, what is it?

Speaker 2: 6:48

What is it? Yes, so it is a visual of a pyramid, and if you ever seen Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that kind of right. They each build on each other those different levels. We kind of use that same structure and thinking about the relational needs right, what does the relationship need to thrive and be healthy? And what we realized from right going through betrayal, helping other couples through it, is that honesty is that bedrock, is that foundation of the pyramid, because once that honesty is shattered, everything else comes crumbling down around the couple.

Speaker 2: 7:21

And so step one is rebuilding honesty. And so for most couples that includes what we would call a full therapeutic disclosure, where the betrayer will share everything, all the secrets, every single thing that was hidden, that was kept from their partner. They share because we have to. Really it's almost like a restart button in honesty. We can't get honest if we don't get honest about the past first, right. And so we really focus on honest about the past. Then we shift into honest about the present Right. We also tell couples we hope we never do another full disclosure again with you guys Right, like one and done. Now let's maintain that foundation of honesty on a daily basis in the way we live our lives in the way we are transparent with one another in the way we are transparent with one another and from honesty we rebuild the safety of the relationship, because we can't have safety without honesty, right?

Speaker 3: 8:15

That's what someone who's been betrayed knows. Like I can't feel safe in a relationship where someone's choosing to tell me bits of information based on what's gonna serve them, and so once we've established honesty, that doesn't guarantee safety, though that's the idea. I think everybody has this idea. Well, I'm being honest, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's safe if I'm honest. But I'm going back to my addiction every week and I'm reengaging those destructive habits. Even if I'm being honest about it, that's still not a safe relationship for the other person to enter into. So safety is really about the kind of rebuilding of trustworthiness in the relationship. Am I back in the relationship and am I operating relationally? It's not about am I perfect, but it is about I've kind of recommitted, I've revowed, and when I'm working with guys I talk about that kind of integrity piece. It's that the values that I carry are now matching, more aligned with my actions, and that's what's going to rebuild safety. And so that safety is what allows for that next level, which is trust. And trust is where the couple gets to start kind of being a couple again. Right, more collaborative work, right, more partnership. They're thinking more about who do we want to be after this is all over? Right, after we're kind of out of the woods, what's that going to look like? What's different? What stays the same, right, what do we carry from the past that we may be really loved about us, but what do we want to be different about us?

Speaker 3: 9:43

And once they've had that foundation of trust, this is when they truly get to kind of step into being a married couple. Right, by first being vulnerable with each other, really opening up some of the more tender places of their hearts, right, sharing things with each other, bearing each other's burdens a little bit more because of that trust that's been established. And that's what gives way to this beautiful intimacy, this kind of oneness that we see, where they really get to feel like we are one again. And it's a different one than maybe they experienced before. It's not just physical intimacy, right, it's intimacy kind of across the whole, but it's the structure that's built underneath it that makes that intimacy so special.

Speaker 3: 10:26

And that's what we were finding is, all these couples were getting out of like discovery and they wanted to go right to intimacy. They were like I want this, I want to go back right, or I want it to be great, and we were having to explain to them. We've got to go through this process so that when you get to this level of connection, this level of vulnerability, it has a foundation, it rests on right, it's still going to move around a little bit right. All relationships are fluid. We're constantly growing and changing, we're struggling, but we want this foundation that wasn't there before, that will help really protect you as you continue to lean into those more kind of tender spaces.

Speaker 2: 11:03

And it's not kind of we build the pyramid, then we're done right, like, okay, check did honesty, check great did safety. These are things that we continue to build on Right. And so, as you start to experience intimacy at the top of the pyramid, it allows for a deeper level of honesty, self-awareness, vulnerability, right, which means we're going to have a deeper sense of trust and safety with one another which Right. And so it is then kind of cyclical, right. We continue feeding into each of those things our entire relationship.

Speaker 1: 11:37

You also talk about some of the skills that we need to work on. What are some of the most important ones?

Speaker 3: 11:43

Yeah, and I think it was really interesting because when we first designed the pyramid, it really was just about those levels, right, we were kind of like big, really, just big picture. But then, as we were working with couples and individuals, we were recognizing like it's one thing just to tell someone to be honest, like I I can. I grew up in church and I remember people being like you should, you should, love your neighbor. Okay, great, right, you know, don't hate people. Okay, I'm not trying to. But guess what? I come back the next week. They're like did you love your neighbor? I'm like no, I didn't. Actually this was not a good love your neighbor week for me. I don't know that, I know how, right, I'm not quite sure.

Speaker 3: 12:18

And so when we, when we kind of went back to write the book, we recognize the need to identify these skills, we call them these components of honesty. Right, what is it that makes an honest person? And so, for honesty, for instance, we recognize there has to be awareness. If I don't, if I'm not aware of myself, my body, my history, it is really hard for me to be honest. People are going to ask me questions that I can't answer legitimately. I might want to, but I'm going to stumble around and they're going to realize wait, something doesn't add up right with this person, and so awareness and if you've ever seen someone, you can tell they're clearly dysregulated or not.

Speaker 2: 12:58

Ok, you're like, hey, what's going on? What's wrong? Oh, nothing, I'm fine, right, lack of awareness and that's not going to feel very safe for the other person.

Speaker 3: 13:06

Yeah, and we also recognize a practice of authenticity, the skill of being authentic. Right Shame creates such this mask that many of us wear. I learned that the way for me to survive was by hiding and putting on this front and kind of an unwillingness to be inauthentic. And I was a pastor for many years and I thought I was being vulnerable. But what I was really doing was I was giving people a piece of vulnerability so that I could hide something else. I wasn't willing to be authentic and because I wasn't authentic, I didn't really know what I needed to deal with. I didn't know what my true struggles were and it was only when I became authentic with myself, with trusted other people.

Speaker 3: 13:53

Right For me, one of the first places I learned to be authentic was in a healthy men's community. I was in a community of men who are in recovery and that was the place that I kind of first learned it. That actually helped me to be more authentic with Joanna. It was that place that I was able then to translate it and say, okay, if I can be authentic there, maybe I can be more authentic here and you can get a more real version of me. I can get a more real version of me. I'm going to know what I want to celebrate and what I want to work on, what I want to maybe improve, what I want to be different.

Speaker 2: 14:23

And an important part of being able to demonstrate that on authenticity is being assertive in relationship. It's actually it's this very active step of being transparent. It's not right. Honesty isn't just like the absence of lies or deceit. It's me actively making the choice to be more and more open, honest, transparent with my partner, and so we include that assertiveness piece there. It's hugely important.

Speaker 1: 14:49

Let's talk about assertiveness, because a lot of us have trouble with that. Either we are avoiding it or we're becoming aggressive.

Speaker 3: 15:04

Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, we like to tell people opinionated does not mean assertive.

Speaker 2: 15:10

Sometimes they'll say healthy assertiveness is what we mean.

Speaker 3: 15:13

And I like that aggressive. I have some people who are like yeah, I was super assertive, what did you do? I walked in there and I demanded that she finally respect me.

Speaker 1: 15:21

And I was like that.

Speaker 3: 15:23

Yeah, we see assertiveness as working for the relational good, because I know one of the things that that we learned when we were in our graduate program was that healthy people are able to take care of themselves. They're not isolated, they're not, they're not like independent, but they're. They are able to care for themselves. They're able to. And that means creating community for myself, that I can be vulnerable, right, that I can be authentic with it, means seeking out professional resources where it's helpful and where it's needed.

Speaker 3: 15:58

That's what, then allows me. It's that that self-care which is allows me to care for the relationship, and not my partner necessarily, but actually to care for the relationship, and not my partner necessarily, but actually to care for the relationship. And so assertiveness is that kind of first act of caring for the relationship. I see an opportunity for us to work better or to be more open with each other, or to take a next step, and I can speak into that in a loving and inviting way, not demanding right, not aggressive, but I'm also not sitting back thinking that I don't have a say.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Yeah, that kind of like you mentioned the avoidance or we see a lot of times compliance and people think that this is such a great thing they're bringing to the relationship, like sure we can do whatever you want, right, and not actually speaking up, being honest, and what we see is the more compliance, the more resentment is hiding underneath that compliance and so it really will destroy that relationship very quickly. And so learning how to speak assertively, openly, taking that active step, not having your partner have to draw information out of you, right, it demonstrates kind of that responsibility and that care, like Matthew's saying, that care for the relationship and so healthy assertiveness is always, always good for the individuals and the relationship, and so if it's not, then we're going to talk about OK, maybe this is not the healthiest version what's going on?

Speaker 1: 17:19

Yeah, I love your story about trying to decide where to go out to eat, and neither of you were being assertive.

Speaker 3: 17:28

And we would. We would go round and round and I can speak like, especially after discovery. This was really difficult for me because in a lot of ways I felt like my betrayal of Joanna invalidated my voice and that I really I didn't deserve a voice in our relationship anymore because of what I had done and I thought that was the loving thing to do. Right, I'm going to step away. But then I recognized I was actually doing more of what I had done in the past. I was stepping out of the relationship. Now I was doing that because of the kind of trap you were talking about.

Speaker 3: 18:01

I kind of felt like I knew avoidance or aggression. Those were the languages that I was able to speak, that I was trained in. I always thought, well, avoidance is the lesser of the evils, right, it's, it's better. But then I recognized, no, avoidance is what I was doing in my addiction. Right, that's what porn was. It was an avoidance of my own issues. It was avoidance of relational issues. Right, I was. I was using it to medicate, not dealing with anything in a healthy way. And so it is. And that's why we say it's really cyclical, right it's. This process works in on itself. I'm a more assertive person. As I've continued to work on myself, I'm more capable of having the kind of conversations that share my desires, my dreams, my hopes, but without putting the demands, and that's usually when you know it's a healthy assertiveness, when I'm not demanding of the other person right? I'm seeing an opportunity, I'm naming it and I'm letting us decide as a couple. Is this where we want to move forward?

Speaker 2: 18:59

And it can be really helpful if you have that awareness right.

Speaker 2: 19:02

Again, that's why awareness is in there, so you understand your own pattern and why you're moving into compliance right or not being assertive. Matthew shared his with this kind of avoidance that maybe came from shame For me, that compliance when it shows up, it's actually control. It's me trying to manage his emotions. Right, we'll just go along with what you want, because then you will show up happier, you won't be as upset, right, we'll just go along with what you want, because then you will show up happier, you won't be as upset, right. And so it was kind of a control tactic for me. And so understanding okay, that comes from a place of feeling unsafe inside of me and I need to notice that, be aware of that and instead of complying or trying to manage, I can name those things hey, I'm not feeling super safe right now and I can tell I'm wanting to manage you by not being assertive. But I know that is not the kind of relationship we've said that we want, right, and so then I can, and then I can lean into that assertiveness.

Speaker 1: 19:58

And as you talk about feeling unsafe, I'm reminded that there is no 100% safety in any relationship. So how do you move toward trust when you can't have that 100% assurance that I'm going to be safe?

Speaker 2: 20:16

And that's probably one of the scariest things for partners, right, because after going through betrayal, after having your entire world explodes, it seems crazy to step back into anything that you can't have that 100% safety right. And so I think it takes so much courage, those partners who choose to step in and work on that relationship. That is such a step of courage, especially early on, when sometimes there's zero safety that's been rebuilt and then learning right, coming to grips with like no, that 100% is not possible. It is sometimes reassuring when we tell them but 90, 95% is possible and that's when you will have a sense of safety, right, the Gottmans have done some research that shows us that you can have a sense of safety and experience of safety relationally when that percentage is high enough. You're never going to get to 100. But if you stay at 60%, you will never feel safe.

Speaker 2: 21:12

And so we've seen some couples dive into recovery pretty aggressively early on, take some really good steps in rebuilding safety, and then they kind of maybe like get tired or burn out or think, well, it's so much different than before, this must be good enough, and they kind of stop. But then they get really frustrated because months, even sometimes years, go by and they're really stuck in that safety level, going like why aren't we rebuilding trust, why aren't we experiencing vulnerability together and so making sure they understand what are the components of safety, how do we rebuild to a felt sense of security? And that partner is going to feel that differently in their body. Right, it will be a pretty pivotal experience and helping them understand. You're not going to feel that in your body at 60%, at 70%, at 80%. So it's helpful to track the growth, even if you're not feeling it, experiencing it, knowing we're moving in the right direction. So in some ways, we're going to trust the process till we get to that place where that secure attachment is starting to be felt again.

Speaker 3: 22:17

And one of the things that we've seen in couples. That's an opportunity, I think, for and I'm going to speak to men as betrayers. We obviously there's different sides of this, but we predominantly work with husbands who've betrayed, wives who've been betrayed, and I will often speak to the guys. I think one of the most straightforward things you can do for your partner is to take that 100% expectation off the table. I think a lot of people have in mind I've broken trust. So what I need is I need a hundred percent trust from you again and I'll feel okay. And that puts all that pressure on the person who's been hurt right, who's been betrayed. That's putting that pressure on them and you can do so much to build safety by saying I'm taking that pressure off of you.

Speaker 3: 22:57

When I accepted that Joanna would never fully trust me again, it opened up an avenue for us to do so much healing versus when I was in this place of when are we going to expunge this from my record right? When is this going to be not a part of our story anymore? And and I was recognizing all I was doing was elongating that process. I was wanting to get to trust and I was just pushing it further and further down the road. Once I let go of that, once I let go of this kind of desire to want to get my history out of our story, that's when our relationship started to grow faster and faster and faster. Right Trust began to really blossom, and so I get it Like I understand.

Speaker 3: 23:40

I remember that time thinking what do I got to do to be back to the kind of trust we had before?

Speaker 3: 23:46

It was once I said that trust that that is gone. But what we have now, even though it's not what it was before, is actually so much better because it's built on something. I remember that Joanna trusted me before, but I knew I was lying to her. That was awful because I knew at any point she was going to write, see a web history, or she was going to write ask me a question that I couldn't answer well enough to keep her off of, off of the trail, and that wasn't a trusting relationship. You know she thought she was trusting something, but I, even in my own experience, knew like she doesn't trust me because she doesn't know me, she doesn't know what's going on. And so, even though our trust is different now, I like it because it's a trust that I know. She knows me, she knows who I am, she knows my struggles, she knows where I am in my process and that's who she's choosing right on that daily basis.

Speaker 2: 24:42

Yeah Well, tell betrayers your job is to be trustworthy, not to be trusted. And there is a big difference in how you will show up depending on which one you see as the goal. If my goal is to be trusted, I'm going to try and manage this other person, control them. I'm going to perform and try and look really good so I earn their trust back Right and and partners can feel that. And then recovery. That recovery doesn't feel safe and authentic. If my job is to be trustworthy, the focus is all of a sudden living a life of integrity, which is ultimately what that relationship needs to heal and rebuild trust.

Speaker 1: 25:21

So good. This is challenging for me. Like this is wonderful. Thank you for unpacking the intimacy pyramid and I know you have a lot of free resources that I'm going to put in the description for this episode. Can you talk about?

Speaker 3: 25:38

those love to share with people is a check-in that we created. We call it the Honest Connection, and we wanted something that was challenging personally and really relationally kind of a gift. And what we did was is we wanted to create a check-in that moved the heart, because we were finding that so many check-ins were about information. I'm going to tell you this and I'm going to here's where I was in my yellow circle and here's the person that I called and that that information matters. Information does matter. We want to make sure there's clarity, right, there's transparency, but what we were, what we also weren't seeing, was these kinds of movements of the heart and and for both right, for for betraying spouses and for for spouses who have betrayed, and so that wasn't a connecting experience. It wasn't something that was actually drawing them together. It was something they often usually dreaded when, when we would hear couples like, do you do your check-in, they'd be like no, and so we created something that, as I do it, it's designed to help me shift right In different ways, and so, for instance, right, we start with honoring your partner.

Speaker 3: 26:48

My challenge and my check-in is to see if I can identify something my spouse has done that day that was either loving, supportive of our relationship or just kind of healthy for our life together. And when I do that, when I truly do that, it shifts right the way I see my partner, even just a little bit right. It sees them as the work they're putting in, even if they're having a struggle, even if they're struggling that day right, even if it was a really hard day for them or we felt disconnected. I have the opportunity before me to kind of shift that focus. I also then we have different parts of the check-in where it's designed to kind of create some humility in myself, right, you know, being able to name where I'm struggling so I can remember I still got work to do.

Speaker 2: 27:30

Yeah, it's that kind of that awareness, self-awareness and ownership, taking responsibility. So one of the pieces is own. You own something from the day that you did that maybe broke connection, or maybe it's something you didn't do, you avoided, maybe you were compliant right, or maybe it's something you didn't do, you avoided, maybe you were compliant right Something that didn't move you towards your goals or the relationship towards the goals. And so really, it's really designed to help you practice the different levels of the pyramid on a daily basis and kind of build in that honesty, build in that safety for yourself and for the relationship.

Speaker 3: 28:05

And the cool part is we run a couples group program and we have a challenge as a part of that program. We challenge them to do their check-in for about 60 days and then come back to us and tell us every day for 60 days, and it is amazing the difference that those 60 days is.

Speaker 3: 28:22

And so part of what we've done is we've created a kind of challenge for people. Even if you're not in our program. We have a 30 day challenge for couples. Just try this for 30 days and see what feels different about your relationship Right. See the feel, the connection, See how that is. Because that's really what couples need. They need the sense of connection, even if what they're going through is really difficult. If they feel connected in it, they will grow together. They will be a stronger, more healthy environment for each individual. And so that's what we wanted to do. We wanted to create something that could just kind of help a couple like find that connection right, Kind of get to a better connected place in 30 days and use that energy to take those next steps in their relationship.

Speaker 1: 29:07

I like that a lot. I'm going to go download it. I hope you guys can go down to this link and get the honest connection, Because I often get the question like okay, well, what should I talk about with my spouse, Like how should we do this? You know, when should we do it, what should we say? And so this definitely meets that need. Matthew and Joanna, thank you for being here. What is your favorite thing about healing?

Speaker 3: 29:32

I think it's the, it's to be able, the living integrity, like I recognized when, when discovery happened and I was, and I was challenged to kind of look at my life, I realized how distant my values and my actions were and how much that burdened my heart and how much that really hurt because I just didn't feel like I was getting to be myself. And so I think what healing has meant is that I get to be myself more often. I get to see myself and live it out, and it looks like me. It looks like the me that God created and the me that I have liked being, and so, and a lot of that is in our marriage, but it's also now as a dad, it's as a coach to men that I work with, it's as a speaker, it's as an author. It's all these places that I get to be myself, and I'm so thankful for recovery.

Speaker 3: 30:26

Recovery was something for me at first that I felt like was a burden I had to bear. I have to go through recovery because I'm a bad person and I need to stop being a bad person. Now that I'm healed, I recognize no, I get to be the thing God created me to be, and there's no greater. There's no greater gift. And the fact that I get to do it in this marriage the marriage where I almost blew it up, I almost really ripped everything apart, right that just makes it even better, that that really makes the life I get to lead so great.

Speaker 2: 30:55

I think for me it's that the meaning and the purpose that comes through the experience and the journey of healing. And it's it's hard, you know, before I went through it, I've heard other people say it, but it's just different on the other side, once you've been through the fire, you've been through the pain, you've experienced that healing and you found a sense of purpose in it. Just the life we get to experience is so rich and so blessed. The people who we get to pour into the transformation that we get to see on a daily basis. Like I could not have dreamed that up myself. God really has used our journey to give us a life where there is so much joy and so much fulfillment, and so I'm honored and so blessed to be able to kind of use my story and us to use our story to bring hope and healing to others.

Speaker 1: 31:52

So redemptive, praising God for your story, and hopeful for many others who need to hear it, because oftentimes we get discouraged or we wonder if we'll ever get there. And if you all want to connect with Matthew and Joanna, go to rabsmithteamcom and you can check out the other links down there in the description. Always remember you are God's beloved son and you he is well-pleased.