Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you so much for listening to my interview with Henry Brown on how to be vulnerable.

Speaker 1: 0:23

You're going to get a glimpse into his story, which is amazing, and then a framework he has developed for learning when to share and how to share what you're sexually struggling with. It's called scratches, scabs and scars. This is such crucial information because many of us never learned the difference between sharing something in the moment when we're feeling triggered, versus being able to process what's going on at a deeper level once we have some space. And then also how to know when to share these things publicly Scratches, scabs and Scars is going to help you learn how to do that. I love Henry so much. I'm so grateful for his guidance, both to me and to all of us in the community. Enjoy the episode. Today, I have the delight of welcoming Henry Brown back to the show. Henry is our Director of Operations and Support at Husband Material Ministries and you may not know that he is our newest certified husband material coach hey Henry.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Hey Drew, how are you today?

Speaker 1: 1:28

I'm really excited for what you're going to share with everyone about this topic of scratches, scabs and scars and how to be vulnerable. Before we get to that, I feel like it would be really helpful for everyone to hear more of your story and what God has done in your life to bring you to this place.

Speaker 2: 1:47

Sure Drew. I was adopted as an infant into a Christian family and had what I considered a wonderful childhood. And for me, I discovered masturbation early, at the age of 11, not long after I turned 11. And that allowed me to feel things that I wasn't allowed to feel in my home. Since, going through husband material, what I realize is my family might have been normal, but it wasn't perfect, and one of the things that I heard over and over as a kid growing up is when I felt something that was a difficult emotion. It was met with. You know that isn't true and that's a great thing to understand, but at the time it doesn't do anything for your heart. You know it can feel bad and it can be false, but the falseness of it doesn't negate how it feels. And for me, I left that out through masturbatory orgasms and that was my solution to not being allowed to feel.

Speaker 2: 3:03

And it wasn't until five years later that I experienced some non-contact sexual abuse at a swim camp where some older guys when I was 16, were trying to organize a hookup for me so I could lose my virginity, but they decided it wasn't worth their campus job and so they sent me back to my room with a stack of magazines to spend the weekend with, and so that's kind of how porn was introduced. Later that summer I became a Christian. I'd always been in the church but I wasn't a follower of Jesus and then I didn't really struggle with porn toward the end of college, when things weren't working out on the dating front. Then I was like what's what? I don't understand, what's wrong? What I think it was wrong now is when I've had the breakup talk. Most of the time I've been dumped. One time I did the dumping it was you're two in your head and I didn't know how to feel, and so I didn't understand what that meant.

Speaker 2: 4:16

And that's how you were raised was very confusing to me, and so porn became a thing. What am I missing? Is there something here that I'm missing? Again, it was a solution, not a good one, and so it became a struggle toward the end of college and early 20s. I even was at a youth ministry conference in Atlanta and confessed that to a mentor, and it was just like, well, we'll pray for you. And so I attributed my pornography use to spiritual warfare. It was very sporadic, I like to say. It was consistent, but not constant that it would pop up, and in the work I've done since finding husband material, I've realized what that pattern is.

Speaker 2: 5:08

Now, once we got to COVID gosh, my porn and masturbation escalated dramatically, and what I've discovered through the work that I've done is that was because of the isolation and abandonment that I felt, and that's when I would act out is when I felt alone, and so COVID really magnified that tremendously, and so I contacted you, like in a panic, like oh my gosh, I've got to do something. Like, oh my gosh, I've got to do something. And then I joined one of your small groups and then joined the beta of Husband Material Academy in September of 2020. And so that was just a phenomenal experience. And then we worked together after that to refine Husband Material Academy. I took all the surveys that you did of what worked and what didn't and compiled that information for you. And then you took that and you made a lot of changes to what exists now Completely different program, but it's the same. Then, almost two years ago, I started working for you part time doing support for clients and then about a year ago I started working with you part-time doing support for clients and then about a year ago I started working with you full-time. Yeah, you know, and through that processing and that healing that really helped me gain a lot of sobriety.

Speaker 2: 6:36

It doesn't come easy. There's a physical component to porn recovery and then there's the emotional component to porn recovery. And then there's the emotional component to porn recovery. And you know, the statistics say it takes somewhere between two and five years to recover from sexual addiction. I don't know where that statistic comes from Patrick Carnes, I've heard it repeated multiple times and it took probably three, yeah, three years.

Speaker 2: 7:09

Sometimes you deal with things and then you think, oh, I've got a handle on this. And six months, 12 months, 18 months later it comes back and it's like peeling an onion. It's just layer after layer after layer after layer and there's a different thing and you've just got to keep at it and it can be so frustrating. I know in husband material we don't really count sobriety streaks, but in those beginning days that was important because I didn't really know what was going on. And it took me a while to get past day 17 or 18 because I would forget to do the emotional work that I needed to do to process these things. And so just getting up on those training wheels and moving and then taking the training wheels off takes time.

Speaker 1: 7:55

That's really well said, henry. Thank you so much for sharing your story. You talk about how difficult it is when we're just starting out with other men in recovery, especially if other men are part of your sexual arousal template. We need help to learn how to share vulnerably, like how do you be vulnerable? So many of us were not taught this, henry, the reason that I wanted to interview you about this topic of how to be vulnerable is because I really love the framework you've put together, building on a teaching from Amy Porterfield about scratches, scabs and scars. What's that about? I?

Speaker 2: 8:39

listened to Amy Porterfield for a really long time and she was talking about how to share mistakes with your audience. It really resonated with me and I said this would be great for recovery, but it's incomplete. And so if you think of scratches, scabs and scars, this will be how to relate to others when you're in different phases of an episode. We'll call it an incident, and so a scratch can be something that's real surface level. It could be just somebody honked at you in the drive-thru today and it kind of rubbed you the wrong way and you don't feel like you deserved it, and so you may be tempted to act out because of that. It could be a really deep scratch that really needs like if it was a physical wound, it would need stitches. But the main thing in that first part, when you've got that scratch, is to connect with others so you don't end up isolating and acting out. And so what do you talk about? You can talk about anything. The point here is connection.

Speaker 1: 9:55

So in a conversation about a scratch you wouldn't necessarily open up about specific sexual fantasies or trauma.

Speaker 2: 10:05

No, and the scratch may go even further, because if it's a surface level scratch, you haven't started to act out. If it's a little deeper, maybe you've already pulled up the browser and gone to your favorite porn site. You don't even have to tell the person that you talk to that you've done that much. You're just trying to get out of that tunnel of isolation to connect with other people. I know I've had people report to me inside the community that yeah, this guy I've been talking to and I asked him how he's doing and he was very descriptive in telling me how he was acting out. We don't need to be that descriptive where we have a scratch. We need to communicate first to pull us out of that isolation.

Speaker 1: 10:57

So when you're on the scene of being sexually or emotionally triggered, there's a need to break the isolation, simply connect, and there's a danger in oversharing. At that point, am I right?

Speaker 2: 11:11

I think the danger is huge in oversharing. You're not in the right mindset, you just need that connection with another person and maybe you can't talk too much about what's going on with you. But you might say hey, I know you're going on a trip next week. What do you have left to prepare? You're doing things to connect with other people, to pull you out of that tunnel of isolation, to pull you out of that cave.

Speaker 1: 11:40

So when you're in the cave and you're feeling emotionally triggered, you're feeling the urge to watch porn. You don't necessarily need to share all the details. You just need to find some point of connection to get out of the cave. Yes, and it could be a sign of danger or a red flag if someone's reaching out while they're being triggered, but they're being very, very descriptive about the type of porn they're trying to get to or what they're feeling in their body.

Speaker 2: 12:11

Yeah, because the person that's most available may not be someone that you can share those things with.

Speaker 1: 12:15

And that's why we have the HMA International SOS chat where people can reach out for prayer. They don't go deep, they just break isolation and connect.

Speaker 2: 12:24

Yeah, in the International SOS, sometimes they'll request prayer. Sometimes men will say I need to talk and they'll talk through WhatsApp. They'll talk through FaceTime, maybe it's audio only, maybe it's video. They just need another person to be in their lives in that moment.

Speaker 1: 12:44

That makes a lot of sense. So that's the scratch category. What about scabs?

Speaker 2: 12:50

Well, scab, if you think about it, when you have a wound, the first thing is is you've kind of got a scratch and maybe it's bleeding. Then you're going to have a scab and that scab is where the healing occurs. That is where, with trusted people, you can begin to discuss what was happening in that moment and be curious about it. So the person cut you off and you are with your triad and one of the reasons why we promote triads is for the safety aspect and the availability aspect is another, because not everyone's available 24-7. And so with your triad, you have that group, you have that safety in numbers and you can begin to process.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Well, why did it make you so mad? When that person cut you off? Did you think about? Maybe you didn't see them, or what is it? When can you remember feeling like that? Before you go back into your past, into your childhood, and maybe you had a cousin that was a bully, that would constantly, anytime you said I want to play Clue, they would cut you off and say, no, we're going to play, sorry. And you begin to learn where that scratch, why it hurts so bad.

Speaker 1: 14:16

And if that cousin sexually abused you, it would make a lot of sense why you might go to porn that would be similar to that sexual abuse.

Speaker 2: 14:25

Or even opposite of that sexual abuse.

Speaker 1: 14:28

So true. So after a bit of time has passed, the scratch becomes a scab and that's where the healing happens. That's where we need to create space with people who really know us to process what was going on underneath the surface level. Cut, yes, and I love that image of a scab because, you know, scabs can often get infected if we don't clean them out, if we don't make sure that the space is safe and it's contained.

Speaker 2: 15:01

And the thing about a scab is is if you cover it up, it can't get the air that it needs to heal your body and that's when it gets infected and it's just like going back in that cave and it just makes it worse. And exposure is what helps the healing. The process of getting from a scratch to a scab is pretty quick but that scab can stay there a while. It can get kind of itchy. Parts of it come off. It doesn't all come off necessarily at once. When the last big bit of the scab comes off, it might hurt.

Speaker 1: 15:38

Isn't that exactly what we go through in outgrowing porn and healing childhood trauma? The way you described the scabs coming off bit by bit, it's not all at once, but when there's a big breakthrough it hurts. Oh my goodness, that resonates with me so much.

Speaker 2: 15:57

When that scab finally comes off, the skin that was underneath that is still a little bit tender and hasn't completely healed and maybe a scar is going to form over that. I remember when I was probably eight, I fell on a gravel road riding my bike and I had this long line keloid scar on my arm for the longest time. And when we have the scar is when we can talk about it publicly, and so the things our members or the listeners hear you talk about on this podcast are the scars from the things that you've healed from. You're not sharing them when they're a scratch. You're not sharing them when they're scabbed over. You're sharing those when they become a scar and you know what was behind it.

Speaker 1: 16:47

And I don't do that perfectly. None of us do. We are learners. So if you're wondering how do I share about a recent relapse, or how do I tell others about this sexual struggle that I'm having, Ask yourself is this a scratch that's happening in the moment? Is this a scab where enough time has passed that you're ready to allow the healing process to unfold, but not ready to share it publicly yet? Or is this a scar that you can be open about because it's healed?

Speaker 1: 17:21

When I'm opening up about a scab that's still in the process of being healed, it still needs to be exposed. There's more stuff down there that is not ready for the world to know about. We need to be selective about who we entrust ourselves to. Not everyone is going to be able to receive that. Not every space is going to be safe for that kind of processing. Able to receive that. Not every space is going to be safe for that kind of processing.

Speaker 1: 17:53

When we can have that space and the scabs finally come off and when there is a scar, that's when we can share our story more publicly and with people who may not respond in the way that we would want, and that's okay. I love this framework. It gives us a really great game plan for what to do when we're in the moment of sexually struggling and then a little bit afterwards, when we have the chance to process it or we're in a safe space. And then at what point can we be more public about it? Henry, you help guys at Hazard Material figure out how to relate to other community members all the time. What are some situations where this framework of scratches, scabs and scars is really helpful?

Speaker 2: 18:39

It's very helpful in the scratch phase. That is probably where a majority of the issues occur. A majority of the issues occur you find someone that's available to talk and you share too much. They're not a trusted individual, but they're available. And then it spirals out of control and there's so many men that were like, oh, this was happening and I didn't need to hear that because this was going on with me. And there's not that mutual concern necessarily. It's just someone that's available and it can spiral. And there have been men that thought they were being vulnerable, sharing those things, that ended up acting out with other men in the community and they've had to be removed. And that's not a permanent thing, but it's not something that we enjoy doing, but we do it for a reason.

Speaker 1: 19:40

Cause we want this to be a safe place.

Speaker 1: 19:42

We want husband material to be like that hospital where you can bring your surface level struggles or your deep wounds and find a place to receive curiosity, compassion and connection.

Speaker 1: 19:58

One of the most popular ways for men in our community to be vulnerable and connect with each other is by joining a triad, which is a student-led small group as part of Husband Material Academy. We currently have 32 of these groups. Of course, you can form your own groups outside of that, but those are the ones that we oversee and support, and the level of support and the level of commitment in a group and in a place to be vulnerable tends to be higher when there's more investment. So that's one of the reasons why joining Husband Material Academy or joining a private small group can lead to higher quality friendships where there's more training, there's more commitment, there's more safety involved, and so when you're being vulnerable, you want to consider how safe is the space that I'm in and what's the level of commitment required to be here, because that's going to determine what kind of a response you can expect to receive.

Speaker 2: 20:49

And then there's a place to share the healing that we've received. Being Christian-based, we're talking about God's faithfulness, of how he's helped us overcome this, and you look in Scripture and there are so many different ways God healed people. But being able to be faithful to talk about that that I received this healing is huge and that this is how it happened for me.

Speaker 1: 21:22

I love that the Husband Material community is a place to tell your story, ask questions, make friends and celebrate wins. So often we are so focused on confessing all of our mistakes. At Husband Material, we are equally focused on confessing our growth, our healing and the redemption that's unfolding in our lives. I feel so privileged to have a front row seat to what God is doing in your life, henry, and for all of you guys who have listened to this podcast and received a lot of help and insight. Thank you for being part of this. And if you would like coaching from Henry, our newest certified husband material coach, henry, where should they go?

Speaker 2: 22:13

They can just go to henrybrownnet and it will take them to my booking link and then, hopefully later I'll have a website that explains a little more. Awesome, henry, what is your favorite?

Speaker 1: 22:24

thing about freedom from porn. Awesome, Henry. What is your favorite thing about freedom from porn?

Speaker 2: 22:28

Just being able to feel I don't just have to be numb anymore.

Speaker 1: 22:40

I love that. That goes all the way back to the story of how your parents responded to your feelings. Yeah, it does. At the risk of being really trite, feel it to heal it. It's tweetable. It's tweetable. There's truth in that, henry. Thank you so much for being with us. I'm going to say another phrase that for some of you may sound cheesy or it may sound repetitive, but it's true. Always remember you are God's beloved son and you, he, is well-pleased.