Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey, my name is Drew Boa, founder of Husband Material, where I help men outgrow porn.

Speaker 1: 0:23

Thank you so much for listening to today's interview with Dr Alexandra Repke on porn and narcissistic personality disorder. If you have ever wondered what is narcissism and am I a narcissist, Do I have narcissistic traits? Is someone in my family struggling with narcissistic personality disorder? This is the episode for you. We get so much clarity, information, education from Dr Repke. I'm so grateful that this is all provided for free, and listening to this interview is not only educational, it's enjoyable, because Alexander does a great job of putting everything in simple terms so that we can understand it and see more healing in this world. Enjoy Welcome to Husband Material. Today, we get to hear from Dr Alexandra Repke, who is a licensed psychologist specializing in the treatment of adults with addiction, anxiety, depression, personality disorders and trauma. She's trained in EMDR. She's a certified sex addiction therapist and personality disorder treatment provider, which means that she is the perfect person for us to learn from about today's topic of narcissism. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Thank you, I am so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Alexandra, where does this word narcissist come from?

Speaker 2: 1:42

Like a lot of fun words we have in the here and now. It comes from Greek mythology, interestingly enough, and so there was a man named Narcissus and I might butcher this a little bit, so forgive me, but a man named Narcissus. He was considered beautiful by all and he would reject the advances of others, thinking they weren't good enough for him something along those lines and eventually he catches a glimpse of himself in a stream and falls in love with his image, to the point where he isn't taking care of himself, he's not feeding his body, he's not getting rest, and I believe he ends up dying there, and then the flower narcissist grows in his place. So there's a lot of symbolism here, but what I think can be missed in the story is that he didn't fall in love with himself. He fell in love with his image. And here's the difference.

Speaker 2: 2:42

I'm going to liken it to the here and now, where we have all of this ability to filter or edit our own photos. Right, we take selfies and they can be heavily filtered or edited, or at the exact right angle that we like, and the image we produce, yeah, it's representative of us, but it's not actually us. There's a disconnect between who we are and the image, and so, similarly, for a true narcissist, there's a disconnect between the image that they cultivate and curate versus who they actually are, and that disconnect for them is intolerable, which is why they have a really hard time accepting feedback, especially constructive feedback, because it doesn't align with this image that I mean they've been enslaved to, is the best way I know how to put it. So that's where the story comes from and, to be really clear, a narcissist they're not in love with themselves, they're in love with the image they become enslaved to.

Speaker 1: 3:46

So why are you passionate about this issue of narcissism, especially for men who are struggling with compulsive sexual behavior?

Speaker 2: 3:54

Yes, so I've worked in the personality disorder field, if you will, for seven years, so meaning it's become my specialty and my passion and my focus. And the reason that I've zoomed in on personality disorders and narcissism in particular is because I've watched as it can impede people's recovery. It serves as a direct barrier for people getting well and staying well, and that is why I am incredibly passionate about not just proper treatment but distributing information that is correct, because narcissism is such a buzzword. You Google it and so many things are going to come up and next thing, you know everyone you know in your life is considered a narcissist based off of some BuzzFeed quiz. And so just really excited about today to take the opportunity to be clear about what narcissism is, what a personality disorder is, and then how and why that would impact somebody getting well and staying well in the context of pornography, addiction, compulsive sexual behaviors, etc.

Speaker 1: 4:56

This is so needed, especially for some of our guys who are wondering like am I a narcissist? Or my wife is saying that I have these narcissistic traits? What exactly is narcissism?

Speaker 2: 5:11

Great question. So to get to that answer, we have to back up just a little bit and talk about what is a personality, then what is a healthy personality, and then, finally, what is a personality disorder? Personality, and then, finally, what is a personality disorder? So let's backtrack and go there. So what is your personality? You ask 10 clinicians, you'll get 10 different answers. This is the answer that I heard once and just resonated the most with me.

Speaker 2: 5:38

Your personality is your psychological toolkit. What it means is what tools do you have at your disposal that you can pull out at will based on the environment around you? That's what your personality is, and so in a healthy personality, you have access to really all and most of the tools. For example, you can choose to either trust someone, or you can choose to mistrust them, or you can choose any of the spectrum in between those two things. That's a healthy personality having access to a myriad of traits and being able to pull them out at will to navigate your environment.

Speaker 2: 6:20

And then we get to a personality disorder. So I already alluded to this a little bit. And then we get to a personality disorder so I already alluded to this a little bit. To have full access to a trait, you have to have access to its antithesis. And that's a little philosophical, so I'll break it down saying picture a penny or a quarter or a coin. You need to have access to both sides to then allow you for the range in between those traits. So, like trust and mistrust, you need to have access to both to be able to pick from the gradients in between. So, for a personality disorder, what's going on is you don't have access to both sides of the coin, you are limited in your access. You have one trait, you don't have its antithesis and therefore you don't have the range that would fall between those two traits.

Speaker 1: 7:10

You don't have all the tools.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Exactly. You don't have all the tools, and so, for narcissism in particular, what we're looking at is for a true narcissistic personality disorder. You are missing the ability to see others as equals. You're missing it, and then, without that ability, you are then stuck, if you will, in a land of grandiosity that becomes your tool, the tool of I am better than other people, I am superior, I deserve more. So that, in a nutshell, is what narcissistic personality disorder is. You are missing an incredibly important tool of equality.

Speaker 1: 7:52

It sounds really sad.

Speaker 2: 7:54

It is, and it's actually one of the things that I struggle with when I look at those Buzzfeed articles as they're they're typically more so looking at things from the victim's lens.

Speaker 2: 8:07

So the person who's been hurt by a narcissist and there's truth in that and there's validity in that, but the reality is is for somebody who's a true narcissist they're missing a piece that you and I get to take for granted and there is a sadness in that. So a question I get asked a lot is why does a personality disorder, or narcissism in this case, impede somebody from getting well, what is the actual barrier? And so to answer that, I think to the phrase that a lot of folks will know the opposite of addiction is connection. As a psychologist, like that phrase has my stamp of approval on it, without a doubt. And what's going on with a personality disorder is it's impeding someone's ability to connect 10 different personality disorders. In each personality disorder you're missing something important to be able to not just navigate life, but to connect with another human being. That's why it impedes recovery, because it's it's harming your ability to connect.

Speaker 1: 9:14

So I can imagine how somebody who is dealing with the personality disorder would feel constantly frustrated or disappointed in trying to build friendships or trying to connect.

Speaker 2: 9:28

Yes, these are folks that on the outside might look like they have a lot of friends, but they feel so utterly alone, and the strength and fortitude of those relationships does not match those of someone else who has access to that missing trait.

Speaker 1: 9:44

That makes so much sense, Especially if we've heard about narcissism from popular sources. What are some common misconceptions people have about this?

Speaker 2: 9:54

So I would say the main one is the origin of true narcissism. So I align with Dr Gregory Lester's conceptualizations and teachings and interpretations of this. He's considered to be a leader in the field and narcissism is something you're born with. And narcissism is something you're born with True narcissism if it is what we just discussed you are born with that deficit. That doesn't happen through trauma. Later on in life you are always missing this piece. Now I want to be really clear. Somebody can develop narcissistic characteristics based off of trauma. They still have access to both sides of the coin, but for some reason they're keeping the coin one side up because of trauma or something like that. So narcissistic characteristics can be developed through the course of your life, but in terms of a full-blown personality disorder, you were born that way.

Speaker 1: 10:53

So it sounds like two people might be exhibiting very similar narcissistic behaviors, but one is a true narcissist and one isn't.

Speaker 2: 11:02

Yes.

Speaker 1: 11:03

How do I know if I'm really a narcissist?

Speaker 2: 11:05

It's a great question. So first of all, let's look at this in context to compulsive sexual behaviors. I want to be really clear that the majority of people in the throes of such behaviors are going to kind of look like a narcissist, because for addiction to be sustained and maintained in some ways you have to disregard the impact that is causing other people. You have to create that mental divorce and somehow say I deserve this or something along those lines divorce and somehow say I deserve this or something along those lines. So again, in the throes of compulsive sexual behaviors, I think most people look like a narcissist, but that's just it. It doesn't mean that you are a true narcissist. It doesn't mean you qualify for narcissistic personality disorder. Those characteristics of you putting yourself above other people that always had to be the case. That had to happen way before the addiction. This was a lifelong pattern, this was something you were born with. So that can be a way to tease apart, if you will. Is this narcissism or is this narcissistic characteristics?

Speaker 1: 12:12

What are some examples of those characteristics for someone who is frequently using porn?

Speaker 2: 12:18

Yeah. So that would be lacking empathy for your spouse or family members, because, think about it If you're not seeing somebody as an equal, you can't really have empathy for them, and so I think that's actually why a lot of spouses will say he's a narcissist, because they're sensing that you're not viewing them as an equal and you're not having empathy for them. They're sensing that, so a lack of empathy would be a huge piece that I would look for, also the idea of the justification I deserve it. That would be a potential signal here. But again, if we're looking at narcissism in regards to a personality disorder, this can't just be contained in your addiction. This has to have impacted you in other ways throughout your life.

Speaker 1: 13:10

So what does healing and growth look like for someone who is enslaved to his own image?

Speaker 2: 13:19

There's a couple of things I look for. Firstly, their ability to start accepting who they are outside of this image that they have spent a lifetime crafting and cultivating. That's a huge piece of it. Becoming at peace with the disconnect and then also recognizing some of the superficialness of the image, that's a big piece. I mean, that's been their God. That's a strong statement, but that is the case here. And so really starting to recognize how superficial and how meaningless so many aspects of this image they've curated has been, that's a big step. I would also say I look for someone who can start taking more constructive feedback as a cue for healthy growth. Because a narcissist, for them to start out with constructive feedback, even if you deliver it beautifully to them, it feels like an attack on their image to start with and they can't tolerate it. They become rageful and if you don't see it on the outside, it's going on on the inside. So healthy growth looks at them being able to accept feedback and it not feel like that attack anymore. That's a big part of growth and healing for somebody with narcissism. And then a third piece that I'll add in here looks at them getting off the Cartman triangle. I don't know how familiar the audience will be with the Cartman triangle. If you're okay, let's quick, do a little sidebar and then come back.

Speaker 2: 14:57

The Cartman Triangle looks at us engaging in conflict in unhealthy ways or showing up to relationships in unhealthy ways. There are three positions, if you will. We've got the rescuer, which sounds better than it is. I'll get back to it. The persecutor and the victim. The rescuer, which sounds better than it is, I'll get back to it. The persecutor and the victim. The rescuer it's kind of the white knight in shining armor coming in, except it's really not. It's somebody coming in and slowly taking away from somebody else's autonomy, if you will, and creating a dependency on them. They're stepping in in a way that is interfering with the other person's ability to grow and be independent and make autonomous choices. That's the rescuer. Another word could be enabler. That might sound familiar to some. So we've got the rescuer. Then we have the persecutor.

Speaker 2: 15:52

This is the individual who they might look like they're just in their anger, but really they're just causing and inflicting unnecessary amounts of pain to punish. That's what they're actually doing. Their boundaries they're putting forward aren't to protect, they're to punish. And also, I would say, if somebody is yelling or shouting or pointing the finger or actively trying to blame or shame. That would fit under persecutor as well.

Speaker 2: 16:22

Then we have the third position of victim. I have referred to it as a victim mentality because you and I both know that there are true victims. We can all like people are victimized and there's nothing wrong with having been a victim. What we're looking at on this triangle is the victim mentality. That's where someone, essentially, is wearing these lenses, where when they look at the world, they don't see the overall picture. They just zoom in on any piece of evidence that that person could be hurting them and they get stuck. It's the woe is me. I'm always being hurt and just really having a hard time zooming out.

Speaker 2: 17:03

That's the Cartman triangle and each of the personality disorders. If you will have their own dance, they do on the triangle and for a narcissist, typically it can change, but typically it's occupying the space of rescuer in a relationship for a time and then going between that and persecutor, rescuer to persecutor, rescuer to persecutor. I also think it's really important for me to add here that all of us, personality disorder or not, we hop on this triangle. I have my home bases with my husband. Not we hop on this triangle. I have my home bases with my husband. We hop on this triangle. It's a non-clinical thing to have been on the triangle we all do it. What's a little different about personality disorders, though, is they more so live on this triangle.

Speaker 1: 17:49

Got it. What would be an example of a narcissist going back and forth between rescuer and persecutor?

Speaker 2: 17:58

of a narcissist going back and forth between rescuer and persecutor. Yeah, so it would be a narcissist. It's kind of the grand gestures after a fight to start with, like reminders of hey look, I'm here for you, I'm taking care of you, let me do this for you, and then, on the back end, for the persecutor, you're not grateful enough for me. Look at everything I do for you. Don't you see this house that I have bought with the money I make? Like it's a sudden turn, if you will. It's whiplash for the person on the other end and they go from oh look, I'm here to take care of you all, while kind of cultivating some dependency, if you will, in an unhealthy way. And the next thing, you know you're not grateful enough. I could take all this away from you if I wanted to.

Speaker 2: 18:44

It's a scary vacillation.

Speaker 1: 18:47

It could be so confusing. Yes, so all of us hop on the Cartman triangle at times in different ways, and we can have compassion for ourselves and each other in the middle of that. Yes, how do you work with someone who's experiencing narcissistic personality disorder to try to shift some of these things?

Speaker 2: 19:06

Yeah. So first thing that I do is a lot of evaluation. I am very hesitant to just slap on that diagnostic label, because the treatment for narcissistic personality disorder is different than the treatment for narcissistic tendencies. They're two different things. For the former, I'm trying to help install a missing trait that you never had. I'm trying to install a quality that means I'm going to be speaking to you very differently than I would if I'm treating someone who has picked up these things along the way but has access to equality For that kind of treatment. For narcissistic tendencies we're usually looking at trauma-based things and the treatment of the trauma can help bring some reprieve and some of those symptoms down.

Speaker 2: 19:59

For narcissistic personality disorder, it is highly confrontational. There's a lot of structure to it. The patient will sign what's called a treatment frame, which is just an agreement for certain treatment boundaries that they need to adhere to for me to be willing to continue forward with treatment. It's intensive, more than once a week therapy. If you go to my website, you'll see my structure is different here, where I see patients more than four times a month and I also communicate with them between sessions, because for a personality disorder you need that constant feedback. My job as a clinician is to hold a mirror in front of you and you're going to try to dodge it and I'm going to follow you with it and also be really in the moment.

Speaker 2: 20:46

Something that's different about personality disorder treatment is that, as much as you can and this is how I do it, based off of my training I bring it to the here and now. So, for example, if I'm working with a narcissist with a sexual addiction and he's trying to tell me about his interaction with his wife and I'm trying to get information and he's like, no, no, but you weren't there, you don't actually understand. Okay, we bring it to the here and now. I talk to him about how his arrogance is impacting me. I talked to him about how his his snarky remark that he made. I interpreted it as a jab and I'm not okay with that. He doesn't get to talk to me like that. Let's go ahead and try a different way for you to express your anger at me. That isn't just sparring. And then I coach him through that process. So it's a it.

Speaker 1: 21:40

That sounds really intense and potentially really impactful. Could you share one or two success stories?

Speaker 2: 21:49

Oh my goodness. Yes, this is my favorite part of the job is watching people transform. So one story that I have in mind. This was a physician. I saw him at a residential level of care, which just means that there was a lot of therapy. It was 40 hours a week of therapy is what that means for X amount of months, so very, very intensive.

Speaker 2: 22:12

And he came in with a chemical addiction as well as narcissistic personality disorder. And on the front end he had such a hard time getting honest about his chemical addiction. And it wasn't just because for a lot of people with addiction there's shame For him, it was he needed to protect the image. That was the narcissistic part. Like the pieces he was withholding were not these giant pieces that his medical board would have looked at him and like, oh no, you can't practice. So it wasn't out of protection, it was. I don't want to tell you these pieces because it goes so against the image that I have guarded and protected my whole life.

Speaker 2: 22:50

And so the start of treatment was rough. There were polygraphs involved, there were hair follicles involved. It took a lot to have him be honest about the extent of his addiction because of his narcissism, and eventually he was honest, but he was more so honest at first because he was backed into a corner, not because he wanted to be proactively honest. So after we finally got the extent of what was actually going on and began treatment, we did the thing. I say we it was a clinical team, but he was my primary patient where we followed him around with a mirror and just kept giving him feedback, feedback, feedback, and then kept coaching him for different ways to respond and calling him out when those tendencies would become alive and well.

Speaker 2: 23:35

And there's this one beautiful moment where we did what was called an experiential, and the point of the experiential was for him to see the cheapness of the image that he's been enslaved to. It's actually something that's going to be published in a book of mine, hopefully in the next year. But the long story short is when that exercise was complete, he looked around at us and said I have been something along the lines of I've been chasing after nothing my whole life. I know we were sitting in the room and I had props and all the things. Like one prop represented, I think, the vacations he had been on the other, like the decorations for the house that were so important. Like he just sat there. I was like this is, this is meaningless to me. There was a moment where we grieved that together.

Speaker 1: 24:28

It's like his eyes were opened.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Yes.

Speaker 1: 24:33

Something broke through.

Speaker 2: 24:35

It did. After there was grief and we then transitioned it to okay, what now? This stuff doesn't matter, what matters? And so we got to do a lot of value work and he got to figure out for him and this is no small, small work what is the meaning of his life, because it's no longer this shiny stuff. What is the meaning of his life and how is he going to be congruent, value congruent, and it was beautiful just watching his interactions change with his wife. He became a different person. He graduated, if you will, from there, I believe, went back into practice and I have every reason to believe is is doing well. It was such a beautiful thing to watch and I want to be really clear. It was really painful for him to get there. It was again. We're following him with a mirror and not letting him look away. When he looks away, we're like no, no, no, look back. Nope, nope, nope, look back. It was so much hard work for him to get there, but he did.

Speaker 1: 25:42

I'm imagining that it's also a lot of hard work for people to get to the point of saying I need help with this.

Speaker 2: 25:49

Yes, it is, most of the folks that come to me come to me because they've hit rock bottom. Their life has exploded. I've had a few people be able to come in before that point, which is always really exciting to me because I'm like, okay, good, the snowball's rolling, but it doesn't have to crash at the bottom Like let's, let's get to work now. But it takes a lot. And so my encouragement to listeners whether it's a personality disorder or the characteristics would be to really be open to some of the feedback that you've heard in your life. If you have a history of fishing for compliments or rage when you feel challenged, if you're overly competitive, if you're demeaning to others, and if you get that feedback from others that this is a true thing in your life, consider getting some help. And I obviously can't tell you from here is it the personality disorder, is it the characteristics? But what I can tell you is there are clinicians that can assess and let you know and then give you a treatment plan to help you on the road to recovery.

Speaker 1: 26:59

That's awesome. I know you're passionate about giving people good information and good resources, so where can we go to get more help?

Speaker 2: 27:08

So, first of all, reference to the Cartman Triangle. There's a great book. It's by Stephen Cartman, it's called A Game-Free Life. I think that that narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic characteristics that would be helpful. And then there's another book called Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen. With narcissistic characteristics or narcissistic personality disorder, you're going to have a rough relationship with feedback and actually, in general, human beings do have a rough relationship with feedback. But if you feel yourself being enraged, angry, not being able to let that feedback go, this is a book for you.

Speaker 2: 27:52

For the family members of someone with suspected characteristics or the disorder, there's a book called the Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists by Eleanor Payson. That would be a good one. She talks about the one-way relationship that is present with somebody with narcissism. So that would be a good one to read. And then, finally, what I would say is, if this is something that you suspect and want to get further information on, I would recommend going to a certified personality disorder treatment professional. It's alphabet soup around here, but that would be a C-PD and that's just going to be somebody that you know has the extra training on this to be able to point you in the right direction.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Awesome. I'm going to put the links to all of those books in the description here so that you can access those, and you are one of those specialists. So if you want to learn more about Alexandra, you can go to her website, which we're also including in the description for RepKey Psychological Services. Alexandra, what is your favorite thing about healing?

Speaker 2: 29:05

healing that gets spread to their families, their co-workers, their social acquaintances, their community. It's beautiful to watch the ripple effect of and.

Speaker 1: 29:36

I'm so grateful to be able to do what I do. Amen. Isn't that amazing. We'll never know all the ripple effects of just one person's redemption. Thank you so much for teaching us about narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder and how that intersects with the issues that a lot of us are facing with sexuality.

Speaker 2: 29:54

Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 29:56

You're welcome, gentlemen. Always remember you are God's beloved son In you. He is well-pleased.