Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today, I am so excited to be talking with Tammy Gustafson, who is the founder of the Betrayal Healing Conference. Welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Thanks, happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:31

I'm really excited for everyone to hear from you again. Last year, our interview was the most popular episode of Husband Material about what to do when your wife is triggered, and today we're going to talk about what your wife needs from you if and when you relapse. Timmy, I feel like it would be really helpful for everyone to get caught up on your story and why this matters so much.

Speaker 2: 0:56

Yeah, so actually 10 years ago today, today is the anniversary of D-Day for us. Today, today is the anniversary of D-Day for us. So I thought that Nathaniel and I had a perfect marriage, kind of very naively and arrogantly perhaps. And then, a decade almost into our marriage, life flew up and where Nathaniel came clean about his sexual integrity issues and it shattered me. It shattered me. Our marriage was hanging on by an absolute thread for a long time as we dove in and as Nathaniel did the really hard work of healing and also, of course, I mean hard work on my side and betrayed partner side as well. But we did lean in fast forward. Our marriage made it, I made it, nathaniel made it.

Speaker 2: 1:45

And so I actually never wanted to use my story, never wanted to talk about my story, any of that. But over time doors opened and it slowly became my passion, and so it is my passion to help betrayed partners heal. I mean to pick up the broken pieces of their heart, but then also to know that they can, that there is strength, that there's freedom, that there's beauty, adventure and joy in the world, and so to help them get to that other side. But this topic, I think, is so crucial because, as I work with women, that the initial betrayal and discovery is so devastating. Of course, the initial betrayal and discovery is so devastating, of course, but where I see women start to lose themselves and where I start to see their lights go out is in this area of if there's constant relapse. So it's a really super important topic, so I'm so glad we're talking about it.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Yeah, and there's no one I'd rather hear from about this topic than you, tammy. What is going on inside a woman when her husband relapses?

Speaker 2: 2:49

I'm going to back up a little bit when that initial discovery happens and all of that, like that shattering is so deep. But then when she hangs in there and she stays and she's like I love him or I want the marriage, I don't want this to end. I'm willing to do the work to pick up the pieces and to heal and start to lean in and start to trust again. When a relapse happens, it is absolutely devastating. It's absolutely devastating no-transcript. Then everything starts over. Then you are literally back at square one.

Speaker 2: 3:58

I know some people and I don't get into all the if we are we going to call it a slip? Are we going to call it a relapse? All that kind of stuff? I don't care. It's trust that's broken and her heart's that's broken again.

Speaker 2: 4:08

And then part of the devastating part is say that somebody went for five years without relapsing and then they relapse Now. For a betrayed partner, it's like, okay, well, how long do I have to wait to feel safe again? Because I waited five years last time and then this happened. So now I feel like I have to wait another five years, and then longer, to get to a place where I can trust that this is safe again, like that's what's going through a betrayed partner's mind. So it's not only the cumulative trauma, but it's also that like when am I ever going to feel safe again?

Speaker 2: 4:44

And what do I do with this? Like I didn't leave last time, so like now do I leave this time. And like now, like what? How do I wrestle through? Like okay, this is my pain, but if I get divorced, then if you have kids, then it's also my kids pain. And like if I'm holding both of those, like what am I going to do? Like am I going to put that pain on my kids now as well? And so what can happen, especially with repeated relapses, is that she just starts to shut down and shut down and shove it down and be like, okay, I guess I don't, I guess I don't matter.

Speaker 1: 5:21

I guess I don't matter. And that's what you described as the lights going out.

Speaker 2: 5:28

The women that I am most concerned about is the women who are in a relationship where the husband is not doing the full work and continues to relapse or continues to cycle and she, she stays, she stays, she doesn't go and he's not fully doing the work. Those are the women that I see start to lose themselves and that is the most tragic thing in my mind that could happen out of all this. Far more tragic than the marriage ending is if she shuts down, and I see it in women all the time.

Speaker 1: 6:06

And that is so ironic because it's oftentimes those very relationships where the guy thinks, well, she's taking it really well, you know, she's not getting angry, she's not condemning me, she's not anxious all the time, she's not asking all these questions. And sometimes they think, well, she's so Christ-like, she just accepts me as I am while I'm doing this.

Speaker 2: 6:37

If she's not mad, if she's not angry, it's because she has shut down, it's because it's gone so far deep that she's not fighting anymore. And so those that what you just described, I'm like, oh my gosh with that is she is. She is in such danger right now. So this cannot be about gosh. I'm so glad she didn't respond, I'm so glad that she didn't get mad, I'm so glad. Well, and that would be natural.

Speaker 2: 7:09

I'm like I hope she doesn't respond too much, I hope she doesn't do all that, but that can't be the focus. It can't be the focus because one, the focus is on you and that's the case of like how do I feel, how much shame is like, because I don't want my shame to get activated. So like if she could just like be okay and just kind of go and pray and not be upset and all of that that would. I would really appreciate that a lot. That is the worst thing for her and, honestly, I think it's the worst thing for for you, for those who are listening, Because so much of your healing has to be about feeling the pain that she is feeling and leaning into empathy for her. You are not going to fully heal, in my opinion, unless you are fully leaning into the devastation that it has caused and that you are helping to heal, that Wow, this is a major reframe.

Speaker 1: 8:07

I hear it all the time when guys say I don't want to hurt her and that's why I'm not telling her about the relapse, that's why I'm not sharing every little detail about it. And then if the reaction to that news is big, they think well, I've hurt her. Look, this is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

Speaker 2: 8:31

You telling her the truth is not hurting her. You relapsing is what's hurting her. And when this happens and men aren't forthcoming, or when they hide, or when they continue to hide or minimize or whatnot, that's lying, that's lying by omission and over time, time and time again, I hear women say you know what? I could deal with a relapse easier than I can deal with him lying and withholding from me. That's how more divorces end up happening. Is the line and the withholding.

Speaker 2: 9:08

Because, let's be honest, like if we take a step back, the person you're really trying to protect is yourself, because when you say this and when you say, hey, I relapsed, or X, y or Z, you're, you don't want to feel the pain of her reaction. That's more of what's going on. So we have to be really honest about that. There is nothing kind about withholding. In fact, from a trade partner's perspective, it is cruel to withhold it. Now as far as how many, every little detail or whatnot. She gets to decide how much of the detail she wants, but you have to be open to giving her whatever she wants. It has to be the only way that you can heal the relationship, the only way that you are going to aid in her healing, and I believe the only way that you are going to get full recovery yourself is if you are completely transparent and authentic.

Speaker 1: 10:09

Absolutely, and that's so much of what we're working on at Husband Material learning how to be vulnerable, learning these relational skills. So let's talk about when a relapse has occurred and a man has been honest about it how can we be helpful instead of hurtful?

Speaker 2: 10:31

Yeah, I think it starts with the. You have to. You have to create a space for her, for her emotions, and so you need to take your desire and expectation for how you want her to respond off the table. It is not about you. She has to be able to have all the emotions she has. And again, if she doesn't have emotions, those are the women I am most worried about.

Speaker 2: 10:59

Okay, so you have to have a space where you can take her anger or her sadness. Where she asks you a question, you give her the full truth and you don't make her pull out all the details. It is worthless to give that little bit and then make her pull everything out of you. That is not helping at all. And the reality is is that she needs the truth to heal. Well, she can heal without you, but you don't necessarily want that. If you're trying to be in the relationship, you don't want to put her in a position where she has to disconnect from you to heal. But if that's what it takes, she is worth that because she has to be able to heal. But the best you can gift, you can give her, is you can be non-defensive, you can be humble, you can be forthright and forthcoming. You can lean into it and say, hey, how are you doing? How are you doing? Is there anything you want to know? Like, how are you? All of that? And it's human nature to pull away from that and like, ooh, I don't want to poke the bear, like, I don't want to, like I don't want to, like, things are calm now. I don't want emotions to rise and I don't want no, it's the opposite.

Speaker 2: 12:16

This is part of that counterintuitive part of healing is that the most kind and the most healing thing you can do is lean into that and say, hey, honey, how are you today? Is there anything you want to talk about? And you can be there. And if she says Nope, okay. Or if she says yes and she goes off and it shoots her up and she's triggered, then then you take ownership for that. You take ownership not only of what you do. That's the. That's not where it ends, it's also you have to take ownership for the effect it had on her. That's also yours to own.

Speaker 2: 12:57

And so doing that and having that humility and having that ownership can be very helpful. And if you start to do that and it's different and it's healthy, she's going to notice that, but she may not be able to tell you that, she may not want to tell you that for a long time. So, but you just have to know from a betrayed partner's point of view, like even in the heat of everything, if you come in and you stay in there and you take her anger and you and you lean into her emotions, and that's different and new as you work through your healing process she's going to go huh, that's different and that's good. That's what I coach partners of, that's what you're looking for. The like huh, he would have handled that differently. But she does not owe you kudos. She is not your cheerleader in this, in this whole thing, but do you know that she will see it, even if she is not at a place where she's ready to verbalize that?

Speaker 1: 13:52

And that's one of the only ways that we can demonstrate more than just sobriety, by how we show up in those moments. Yeah, tammy, I've been watching some of the webinars that you do with Nathaniel called Both Sides of the Story, and there was one that you did about creating a relapse safety plan for betrayed partners. Can you say a little bit more about what betrayed partners need after a relapse?

Speaker 2: 14:21

What they need is they need the truth, they need the ability to express, they need safety, the ability to express things. They may need space like safety, safety, safety is what we're going for. So physical safety, emotional safety, all forms of safety is what they need. Because a relapse has ignited her nervous system absolutely on fire. She is in full on fight or flight mode or, for those who take it really well, they're probably in the freeze or the freeze mode. So know that just because she is not responding big, that her nervous system is absolutely on fire. It's just she doesn't feel like she can fight or she can run anymore. So that's where you get the freeze.

Speaker 2: 15:08

Just to reframe that, I call it the plan C. Like plan A is there's no betrayal, right? Plan B is okay, there has been betrayal but no more. And then plan C is like now, what Right? And so what I?

Speaker 2: 15:24

What I tell women is that to have things thought out as far as if the worst case scenario happens and he relapses, I help them kind of come up with a plan so that they can have a thought out and written down ahead of time, because once your brain kicks into that fight or flight mode, like you don't know what you want, like you don't know I mean the executive functioning, you can't plan, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2: 15:51

Like everything is overwhelming, it's so hard. So it's something just to kind of get her through that initial shock period of it so she can start to get back online. But I think that what she needs for herself that document is the you're not safe and she needs to get safety outside of you. So that's a difference between, like what we were talking about, of what she needs from you, how you can help her, and the other one, the document is okay, you're not safe. So now she has to do this on her own. And what does she need to think through to kind of help her get her feet back underneath her? It's kind of a very short term plan, but what can she do to get her feet back underneath her?

Speaker 1: 16:36

Which might include time away.

Speaker 2: 16:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Might include extra self-care hiring, more help with the kids to give her that space.

Speaker 2: 16:50

Yeah, absolutely One of the biggest things that's so hard for betrayed partners to deal with. Let's just go back to after initial discovery In their decision of if they're going to stay or not. Decision of if they're going to stay or not something every partner has to struggle with is the risk. It is such a risk to stay. If she has stayed with you, she is risking so much and when she makes that decision and it feels for a betrayed partner, there are times you're like what am I doing? What am I doing? Why would I stay with this man who has the ability, who's already shown it, but who has the ability to hurt me again this much?

Speaker 2: 17:35

So there is that battle inside, and I think Michelle Mays does a great job about talking about all these binds in her book the betrayal bind but there is such a battle inside of her of like I want safety, I want to be at a place where I can rest, I want to be at a place where I feel like I can be safe and I can let down my guard and I can do all those things, and yet I can't and I'm staying and all of this may happen again. All of this may happen again, and so that is a constant thing that betrayed partners have to deal with is dealing with that risk and their relationship with themselves and the battle inside of themselves with that risk. So part of kind of developing a plan, as we talked about, is going you know what? Let's look at that risk because that risk is real. Yes, that risk is real and we can't run from it. I mean, you know what, let's look at that risk because that risk is real.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yes.

Speaker 2: 18:24

That risk is real and we can't run from it. I mean, you can. You can avoid it if you want, but one of the ways to calm it a tiny bit is to have it already thought through, so you know what you're going to do.

Speaker 1: 18:40

And I know some guys are already thinking why would I plan for a relapse? I don't want to relapse again. I don't want to put myself in the headspace of imagining that's going to happen, and so this might seem unnecessary or it might seem unhelpful, but this is not about you guys. And it is a risk. It could happen, it could happen to anyone, it could happen to me. However long we travel down this road, we can still get in an accident at any time.

Speaker 2: 19:12

Well, and like you said, like this, this has nothing to do with the guys, like this is not them planning for a relapse. Like, don't, like, don't do it, do your work, so you don't. This is her trying to create a safety net for herself, because she is risking everything by staying with you.

Speaker 1: 19:29

And that matters.

Speaker 2: 19:31

You know, this idea of risk, I think is is such a big thing. I'm I'm a skydiver and there's a lot of risk right and skydiving, but it's so fascinating because in this community they don't shy away from risk. It's so fascinating because in this community they don't shy away from risk. They don't shy away from fear, they don't even shy away from death. They don't shy away from emotions, like all of that stuff. It's like in in the rest of the world, when there's risk, the natural reaction is I want to put my head in my sand and not think about it and not deal with it. In this community, everybody knows that it's there, so they lean into it and they talk about it and they prepare for it.

Speaker 2: 20:07

So much of the training that I went through was all about what to do when things go wrong. Not that you ever want it to go wrong, and for betrayed partners, you don't ever want it to go wrong, but you want to. For betrayed partners, you want to have a backup plan, and for skydiving there are backup plans. To the backup plans, to the backup plans, because that's how dangerous it is, or how potentially dangerous it is. Well, for betrayed partners it is even more dangerous, I think, than jumping out of an airplane. So you want to look at it and you want to have a plan in place so that you can get up and walk if everything goes wrong.

Speaker 1: 20:48

That's so good, and if you want more training and if you want to give your wife or girlfriend or family members more training on how to skydive in this context of sexual betrayal, you need to go to the Betrayal Healing Conference. Tammy, can you tell us more about that?

Speaker 2: 21:09

Yeah, absolutely so. This is an annual event I put on that is specifically for betrayed partners, although those who did the betraying and professionals are also welcome to join. We have some specific interviews for them as well. But my goal and my heart for this is that when betrayal happens, one, nobody prepares you and two, when it does happen, you don't know what to do. You don't know where to go, you don't know who's safe, you don't know if you're moving forwards or backwards. It is so disorienting. So my heart behind this is to gather it's to gather women. My heart behind this is to gather, it's to gather women, to gather betrayed partners who are hurting and gather safe speakers.

Speaker 2: 21:49

I am so protective of betrayed partners and so I gather safe speakers to come and who I know will give them guidance and help and empowerment, because there's a lot of people who have been really hurt by therapists or by professionals or faith leaders who maybe don't have the training and understanding. So this is a place where you can come and know that you are going to be safe and you're going to get safe information. It's happening in a couple of weeks, january 27th through the 31st, so it's five days long. There's over 35 speakers, including Peter Levine is talking, and so, like the trauma piece, we're pulling that in as well. I'm really excited about that, but really just phenomenal speakers, phenomenal experts in the field, and there'll be about seven or so interviews that are released each day and people have 24 hours to listen to them and, yeah, it's just a time of healing and empowerment and guidance and validation, and so good, it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 22:56

So I'm partnering with Tammy to promote this conference and you can go down to the link in the description for this episode if you want to join Again, it's free. And for those of you who attended the Porn-Free man Conference earlier this month, now the Betrayal Healing Conference is happening for partners, for women, for wives, for girlfriends, for anyone who's impacted by this. What an opportunity, tammy, I know this is a big question. What is your favorite thing about healing?

Speaker 2: 23:28

What a fascinating question. Well, for my healing, the feeling of freedom, the feeling of bringing back in and welcoming back in all those parts of me that I lost along the way oh, it feels so good. And my favorite part of walking with women healing oh my gosh, there's nothing better than watching a woman start to get the strength from the inside and start to realize that she has incredible worth and value and start to realize that she matters and that she gets to take up space and have a voice and that she can be accepted exactly how she is. To see her light for those whose lights have started to dim, to see that light start to get brighter and brighter. It is awesome and it is possible, and I see it all the time and I'm on a mission to help fan that flame back inside women.

Speaker 1: 24:33

Let's go. Thank you, tammy. Everyone go down to the link to join the Betrayal Healing Conference and you can also learn more about Tammy her website. Always remember you are God's beloved son and you he is well pleased.