Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today's episode is an example of Fantasy Friday, one of our 10 coaching calls in Husband Material Academy, where I will be coaching one of our certified coaches, jordan Castile, as he accesses and processes one of his sexual fantasies, specifically about a guy in a locker room. In this episode, you are going to witness how I guide Jordan to bring healing to this part of him and as we invite Jesus into the experience. It's really beautiful. And then at the end, we'll explain a little bit more of what happened and how all of this works.

Speaker 1: 0:59

I need to give you a little bit of a warning because as you hear Jordan's fantasy, it might be a little bit triggering, so I encourage you to pause this episode or fast forward it if you need to. I've tried to remove anything that could be overly graphic and if you're interested in doing this type of work, now is the time to join Husband Material Academy. We only open up the doors twice a year, once in January and once in July. You can find out more. Learn more about the program and sign up now at joinhmacom. Enjoy the episode. Jordan, hey man, hey Jordan, to be vulnerable and do this work so everyone can witness what it's like. What do you want to bring to this demonstration of Fantasy Friday?

Speaker 2: 2:16

Yeah, so I have a fantasy that I've written up here, a typical one for me, fantasy that I've written up here, a typical one for me, and it's on the SSA side. So same sex attraction, that's a big part of my story and I think I'm I'm ready to share it.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Okay, can I pray for you?

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, it'd be great.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Oh God, help us to access the desires underneath this fantasy. Come and be present to us and comfort Jordan. Give him a sense of your love, kindness and strength within him. I ask you to surprise us, to allow everyone to get a little bit more healing as a result amen, amen.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Okay, so I'll get started. Always a little bit nervous when sharing something like this, okay, so I am at the gym and I just finished a workout and head into the locker room to take a shower, clean up and go home. I was feeling a little bit insecure that day as I saw other men who look stronger than me and I compared myself to them. I go over to my locker and I see a guy that is what I want to look like. He's looking at himself in the mirror and flexing. As I begin to undress, I notice that he's looking at me. I take a quick glance back at him and I feel a little bit of arousal. As I undress all the way, I notice that he is staring. I look over again and I see that he's a little bit aroused. He then compliments me on my physique and tells me how strong I look. I feel affirmed and tell him thank you. I compliment him on his physique as well.

Speaker 1: 4:43

I just want to check in with you. How are you doing right now? Him on his physique as well. Just want to check in with you how are you doing right now?

Speaker 2: 4:50

Yeah, I'm doing okay.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Would it be okay with you if you give a more general overview of what happens next?

Speaker 2: 4:59

Sure, okay. So he follows me and he asks if he can join me and I take a deep breath and say yes, and we go in and and have sex together and have sex together and throughout it all he affirms me I feel chosen and noticed and seen, and I feel accepted. And then, as we finish and get dressed, he asks me if I want to hang out with him. I tell him yes and we go out for dinner.

Speaker 1: 6:03

Thank you, jordan. Yeah, what's happening in your body right now?

Speaker 2: 6:14

feel uh a little bit of a relief that it's over yeah and yeah, you know, I think uh a little bit of embarrassment and shame. Thanks, everybody.

Speaker 1: 6:29

You're getting a lot of appreciation in the comments right now.

Speaker 2: 6:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:35

What a gift. Yeah, jordan, I heard you say that you felt affirmed throughout the whole process.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Mm-hmm yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:52

That seems like a really strong desire.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:59

Affirmed being chosen, befriended yeah, in the end, you go out to dinner. Yeah, being chosen befriended, yeah, in the end you go out to dinner yeah the sense of being like, wanted and pursued yeah would you like to process these feelings and see where that goes?

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yeah, sounds good.

Speaker 1: 7:30

All right, okay, jordan, you can close your eyes or open your eyes Whatever's most comfortable. Take a few deep breaths. As you breathe, become aware of all of the affirmation of these men. Become aware of your own kindness and courage. Bring that affirmation to yourself Whenever you're ready. Focus on the part of you that feels unaffirmed and really desires affirmation, especially from another man. Where do you feel that? In your body?

Speaker 2: 8:40

My stomach.

Speaker 1: 8:48

What do you notice about it?

Speaker 2: 8:55

It's like there's a longing.

Speaker 1: 9:03

If that longing could talk, what would it say?

Speaker 2: 9:10

Hey, I'm here.

Speaker 1: 9:14

Can you picture it?

Speaker 2: 9:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:18

What do you see?

Speaker 2: 9:22

I see a younger version of myself.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Tell me more.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Yeah, he feels stuck and unseen.

Speaker 1: 9:42

Where is he?

Speaker 2: 9:46

In his bedroom. He's playing video games. That was his way of escaping. How do you feel?

Speaker 1: 10:04

toward him, his way of escaping. How do you?

Speaker 2: 10:16

feel toward him? Yeah, I feel sadness, compassion, knowing what he went through at that time.

Speaker 1: 10:39

What was he going through at that time?

Speaker 2: 10:44

A lot of bullying, a lot of rejection, a lot of hurt.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Who was bullying him?

Speaker 2: 10:59

A lot of people. Yeah, there's actually one guy in particular that is coming to mind and he pretty much bullied me all of high school and there were some times that he would actually be my friend but then turn it back a month or two later. That's so painful, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:52

And confusing.

Speaker 2: 11:55

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 11:59

Is that why you were feeling stuck and unseen?

Speaker 2: 12:03

Mm-hmm. Yeah, he was one of many. His mark left a bigger one, yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:14

Well, he was your friend too. You thought he was your friend. He acted like your friend sometimes, yeah, so you retreated to your room to video games. What does your body want to do right now?

Speaker 2: 12:39

well, I feel, I feel tension, especially in my stomach.

Speaker 1: 12:44

Yeah, yeah, would you like to go? And?

Speaker 2: 12:56

be with that boy yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Okay, and as your current adult self, walk up to that bedroom door, maybe knock on it, see what happens. Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 13:29

Yeah, knock. He says come in, just stand there for a minute while he continues to play. He invites me to come sit next to him. I sit down and watch him. He's playing Street Fighter 2, which was one of my favorite games. He invites, so I pick up the controller and we began playing. Just tells me thanks. I needed a friend today and tell him I'm here for you, buddy, keep playing and we just enjoy the time together.

Speaker 1: 15:27

What's it like to enjoy that time together.

Speaker 2: 15:34

Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's good. He really doesn't know how to talk about what he was going through.

Speaker 1: 15:49

Would he be open to a conversation about that?

Speaker 2: 15:56

Yeah, let me ask. Okay, yeah, just tells me there's this guy at school and every time I see him they're in class together. Calls me fag, homo, bitch, homo, bitch, and he won't stop. I don't know how to get it to stop. I just try to let it run off or ignore him, and he just does not stop. I just feel so powerless and alone, like nobody sees me.

Speaker 1: 17:46

You respond to him.

Speaker 2: 17:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:51

See if you can get a sense of what he needs from you right now.

Speaker 2: 18:01

No, you right now Just says that he needs a hug. It says this is so hard. I didn't ask for any of this. Why?

Speaker 1: 18:58

is this happening? I see your tears.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Yeah, yeah. Older me looks at him and just tells him it's not fair. You didn't ask for this. It's going to be hard, but you're going to get through this and you're not alone. He looks at older me and just says, thank you. This is the first time anyone has really asked me about this. Ask him if we can bring Jesus and ask him that, yeah, would it be okay if Jesus came in and talked with us? Tell him you don't know him yet and talked with us. Tell him you don't know him yet and he's trustworthy. He says, yeah, that would be nice. See Jesus, just turn to him. He looks him in the eye and says I see, you Saw it all. I was with you, I love you. He says those were just mean kids and I accept you. Jordan Says I see this part of you and I'm not ashamed of you. What's?

Speaker 2: 22:51

happening now just feel a release of that tension that I was feeling what's happening in your stomach it feels peaceful and good.

Speaker 1: 23:29

What's Jesus doing now?

Speaker 2: 23:37

Yeah, just sense his peace and that he's here, then I'm going to be okay. How's the boy reacting? Yeah, jesus is inviting him to get up to go for a walk and he says, okay, we can do that, wow. And he says, okay, we can do that, wow, wow. Just connecting that to the fantasy I just shared yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:03

You invited to go out.

Speaker 2: 25:10

Yeah, spend time together, and older me is just walking with them and enjoying the time does that feel like a good place to stop? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:53

I invite you to just close this. However, you want to Bring it to an end, yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:08

What Feels good.

Speaker 1: 26:16

Welcome back Jordan. Yeah, oh man Woo welcome back jordan yeah, oh man, you were getting a lot of hugs in the comments yeah, I can see a lot of thank yous use. Oh yeah, how was that for you?

Speaker 2: 26:39

Yeah, I mean really good. I mean it was definitely emotional. I just think, oh, I knew it was going to be emotional today, but I just think sometimes I'm like maybe it won't be as emotional. Feel good and seen.

Speaker 1: 27:06

Yeah, can I read some of the comments?

Speaker 2: 27:09

Sure.

Speaker 1: 27:10

So brave, beautiful self-compassion. Your story is so similar to mine. This is powerful. Hell, hell, yeah, let's go. How incredible wowza healing is such a wonderful miracle to witness. We're proud of you, jordan. Then the words from Jesus really stood out to me when he said first, I see you. That spoke right to your desire and feeling unseen and stuck, and I think you did a really wonderful job of showing exactly what this process is about locating the boy, loving the boy and then you asked him permission hey, would it be okay if we invite Jesus?

Speaker 1: 28:07

Yeah that was so gentle and so respectful. Yeah, you kind of you introduced him to Jesus.

Speaker 2: 28:18

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:20

So, and then the three of you at the end walking together, yeah, I can almost picture the three of you going out to dinner. You know like the well, it's like you know what you said in the fantasy, but it was about friendship, right. It was about friendship, right, it was about this bond.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Yeah, and that's what I was longing for in my fantasy was acceptance and friendship, and it was Jesus providing that.

Speaker 1: 28:50

Yes, it was the man Jesus and also and also the man Jordan.

Speaker 2: 28:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:56

Who were both providing that so good. Scott says, saying thank you seems too shallow. Jason says I'm blown away by how God is in the business of our ongoing healing and restoration. Tim says I learned so much for you, jordan. My story is so similar. Your bravery makes me want to go there too. Do it Right.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Come come to transformation Thursday.

Speaker 1: 29:26

Come to fantasy Friday. We do this every week.

Speaker 2: 29:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:30

I say that so casually, but it really is sacred. There was a moment where I almost interrupted your process.

Speaker 2: 29:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:43

I really wanted to give you the space to just flow with it, because it felt like you were on a roll, so I really didn't say or do very much. Sometimes the coach might intervene more, but sometimes we don't because we don't want to get in the way of what's happening here. Yeah, and so when you were talking about that bully, or that friend slash bully, I wondered if he resembled the person in your fantasy.

Speaker 2: 30:21

Not this time, okay, uh, before in, in one of my fantasies I did have one, uh, that did resemble that.

Speaker 1: 30:33

So that you know that's an interesting question.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Right.

Speaker 1: 30:36

I felt like if I asked that, it would have taken you up into your head. You know, maybe it wouldn't have, but in this work we really want to stay in the heart space. And then there was that wow moment where you got up from playing video games and went for a walk with Jesus.

Speaker 2: 30:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Which is what I feel like you've done in your life.

Speaker 2: 31:00

Yeah, you know, I see, like you know, in the desires worksheet in the academy, you invite Jesus to provide that desire for you. You provide it for yourself and then you seek to provide it to others and from others, and I just felt like that was a way of Jesus meeting me and even myself providing that desire.

Speaker 1: 31:37

Yeah, it truly was.

Speaker 2: 31:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:42

And all of us coming around you and then you also giving a gift to others through this. I mean, yeah, thank you. We're going to do a little Q&A time. Before we do that, can I pray for us, or would you like to pray?

Speaker 2: 32:00

yeah, I can pray, okay. Um well, yeah, jesus, yeah, thank you for this process just now and yeah, god, I I really do want to pray for the men that are on this right now and if they're struggling, if they're needing clarity or just even, yeah, feeling arousal from my story, would you meet them and, yeah, would you speak through me and Drew, as we share? Amen.

Speaker 1: 32:44

Amen, amen. So I'm glad you brought up that feelings of arousal might be coming up when you were first sharing the fantasy. Um, you remember that I I paused to check in with you. I felt a little bit cautious, yeah, in that moment, because I hadn't actually heard what you had written out yet and and to me it felt like it was getting close to a place where it could have been getting into graphic detail, right. So that was a bit of a risk to jump in there and it's something we try to balance in HMA is like okay, want to be honest because the power is in the particularity.

Speaker 1: 33:32

And we also want to be honest, because the power is in the particularity, and we also want to be protective too. So what was that like for you, jordan?

Speaker 2: 33:40

yeah, I uh, I did appreciate your caution there. You know, I'm kind of just in the this intense sharing, you know, in the moment and I mean it was fine. I definitely, you know, it didn't really throw me off that much Okay.

Speaker 1: 33:59

Yeah, sometimes guys can feel triggered, or feeling like, oh my gosh, I did something wrong. Or feeling ashamed or not accepted because I was in the middle of sharing. So and we try to make a balance there let's get to some questions. And we try to make a balance there. Let's get to some questions. How can we be sure that the connection we are discovering between past experiences and feelings and a current fantasy is a real connection and not one that we are imagining in our minds now just because it seems to make logical sense? Great question how can we be sure? We can't be sure. There's no certainty here. That's why curiosity is so important.

Speaker 1: 34:45

Yeah, a lot of times you can find that the connection is real, based on what your body is doing, like if you have a physical reaction, like tears come to your eyes or a sinking feeling in your stomach. We might not always interpret those signals correctly, but it means there's something there that we want to explore. Instead of trying to think about it and analyze it, we're more focused on what we are feeling emotionally and physically and just becoming aware of that. And sometimes, you know, sometimes we don't, we don't really know, or there's not a clear connection, and that's okay too yeah, I really, I really think, drew, as you're describing, that you know a lot of times it.

Speaker 2: 35:35

It just takes practicing and awareness to really understand more and the processing it with someone else to be able to go deeper and deeper into you. Know the reason why you're aroused by you know the reason why you're aroused by something or a situation and yeah, it's not always straightforward.

Speaker 1: 36:02

Yeah, mark asks why is the question asked where do you feel this in your body? We're going to get into that more in session or about why that's so important. I think session three a little bit too. But yes, I mean, we carry trauma in our bodies. Healing happens in our bodies. Yeah, the body keeps the score. That's right.

Speaker 2: 36:24

Yeah, it's. It's like when you feel where it is in your body and you're able to connect with it. It really helps you to connect with the story, yes, which is very powerful in that moment.

Speaker 1: 36:39

Yeah, because oftentimes these memories are not just explicit memories, they're body memories, they're implicit memories, as we talked about in session one. Drew says I feel like I don't have a lot of reoccurring full fantasies or stories like the ones shared. I just have these urges, intrusive thoughts, fetishes, and I've been able to glean a lot from those. But I can't think of any fantasy I could write out, and you know what? That's okay. In Unit 4 of HMA I have an assignment called the secret screenplay, where you actually write something out and we provide a lot of safe boundaries around that so that it doesn't lead to a relapse. And so much of the healing work is to piece together these fragments, these different parts. Right, there's a thought over here, a fetish over here, an urge, and kind of fully integrate them together and that's when you get more of the story. But for some of you guys writing that story could just be asking okay, well, in this urge, why is that so strong? Where is that coming from? What would happen next? How would I feel To get more clarity? Okay, what is the fantasy? But this process really doesn't just work for fantasies. It works for urges, attractions, thoughts, feelings, anything. Yeah, these are all parts and in session three we're going to talk about parts. This was essentially a form of parts work. Inner child work and parts work have a lot in common, so we will get to that.

Speaker 1: 38:07

Edward says it seems like this would ideally happen in one-on-one coaching work. How do you do that on a group call? Well, we do it just like we did here. It's a group in the sense that, hey, we're all present, but it's a one-on-one call in the sense that Jordan and I were totally focused on each other and nobody else. It's powerful in this context, because then you get all the comments of affirmation and acceptance and appreciation from everybody. That's kind of like holding Jordan up and supporting him and cheering him and praying for him. So it is one-on-one and group at the same time. That's what we call a hot seat coaching call. Okay, Adam is saying that when I do this type of work I can't visualize anything.

Speaker 1: 38:47

I can't see anything, and that's okay. We have more than just sight. We have other senses too. So what do you hear? What do you feel? What's coming to you? Maybe not in images but in words or some other type of input, but visualization, I think, can be very, very helpful, because porn is so visual and because our attractions and fantasies are so visual. In a sense, we are discipling our imaginations. Adam says what's a good way to protect ourselves after such an emotional release? I mean it's really important to care for yourself after this, For example, after Jordan's process. You know, maybe you go for a walk. That's how the process ended and it seems like that would be a supportive way to go forward after that. But I mean, sometimes, when we experience healing and when there's a disruptive goodness and it's like, oh my gosh, this is so good, it actually can be a trigger to act out. When you have a really, really good day, that can be just as triggering as something painful or frustrating. So you need to become aware of those tendencies to self-sabotage.

Speaker 2: 40:13

Yeah, I like what Matthew says Don't go doom-scrolling, for sure I like the walk.

Speaker 1: 40:18

Yeah, yeah right. Choose connection, Choose to give yourself something good, because this is really, really hard work, and sometimes people hear addiction recovery specialists talk about self-care a lot and men who are outgrowing porn or attached to porn are notorious for not having self-care. It's like no, either I don't think I can or I don't feel like I deserve it. But I want to invite you to reframe self-care as caring for the little boy, spending quality time with him. If you don't, then you're reenacting the neglect and abandonment and abuse that you've known all your life.

Speaker 1: 41:14

that you've known all your life. So, whether you call it self-care or soul care, quality bro time find a way to give yourself something good. After an experience like this, let's get practical about this. So you've had a very intense experience here at the first two sessions of HMA in a day. Come in the chat and tell us what are you going to do during the next hour break. Take care for your soul or take care for yourself? Put it in the chat. Take a walk, call a friend, cook myself a meal, eat lunch, get a haircut, take a nap, chipotle video games with my kids, journaling, indian food, meditation. Treat myself, lay down, give myself a hug, hug meal and a cigar. Hang out with my wife Awesome Work. Be with God for a bit. Play guitar, even if you have to go back to work. Just be aware of how much your heart has been through today so good. Thank you for coming to session two.

Speaker 1: 42:38

I want to remind you that hma is open this week only at join hmacom. You can sign up this weekend to get all the recordings of hma today and four other bonus courses in addition to the full program. We would love to have you there. I mean we're going to be continuing this. If you love this, if you want to keep going with this, join HMA. If you want to take a turn in the hot seat, join HMA. If you want to watch a few other guys, do it first join HMA. If you want to understand your fantasies, transform your triggers, get more structure and support to heal and outgrow porn, definitely join HMA at joinhmacom, and that's it. Thank you so much for witnessing this example of Fantasy Friday, which we recorded last summer at the HMA in a Day workshop. I hope it was helpful, maybe even healing for you. And if you would like to be a part of this, join HMA at joinhmacom. And always remember my friend you are God's beloved son and you, he is well-pleased.