Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you for listening to this interview with Nick Stumbo. Nick is actually one of the speakers at our upcoming free online conference, the Porn-Free man. On January 10th and 11th, nick and I and three other awesome speakers are going to be leading you live to experience deeper healing and greater freedom from porn in 2025. So go to thepornfreemancom if you want to register and join men from around the world on this amazing journey.

Speaker 1: 1:20

In this interview with Nick, you are going to get a window into the newest research on the prevalence of pornography, especially among practicing Christians. If you're wondering how many people actually think porn is a problem, how many people are struggling with it, how many people are struggling with it in secret, man, some of these statistics are really heartbreaking, some of them are alarming, and there's also some hope and encouragement that you're going to hear about, especially when it comes to Gen Z. We talk about what some of the most effective solutions are, and at the end, you'll hear a preview of Nick's presentation coming up at the Porn-Free man. Enjoy the episode. Today, we get to hear from Nick Stumbo, who is the executive director of Pure Desire Ministries. Pure Desire Ministries and Barna Research recently came out with a new resource called Beyond the Porn Phenomenon Beyond the Porn Phenomenon Equipping the Church for a New Conversation. Nick, thanks for joining us and I'm really curious to hear why are you passionate about this research project?

Speaker 2: 2:25

Well, hello, hello, yeah. Thanks, Drew, for having me on and a chance to talk about this. You know, like you and Husband Material, we do a lot of work in this area with sexual addiction and pornography use and recovery, and we were really, a year and a half ago, looking around at you know what's the new research say? Because as we would hear people speak or even as we were using data, I knew like, oh, that's from the 2012 covenant eyes stat pack, or I read that article that's from 2013, or that's from the 2016 report, the porn phenomenon that Barna did with Josh McDowell Ministries and Covenant Eyes. So that you know, research ages, it's only good for so long.

Speaker 2: 3:06

And since 2016, we've all lived through the pandemic and watched kind of an upheaval in our society as it comes to gender identity and fluidity and you know just political divisiveness and things happening within the church, and I think we felt like the topic of pornography has kind of become a byline for churches, a little bit of a. Well, we've been there. We ran the Conquer series 10 years ago, we did that one men's weekend and now we've moved on to all of these other hot button topics. And yet our suspicion, as I'm sure for you and many others was that this issue is not getting better. We have not dealt with it very fully, we've just kind of touched the surface, and yet a majority of people are still struggling. And we feel like that before you can be motivated to change the reality of your church or community or home, you have to be willing to embrace and accept what that reality is.

Speaker 2: 4:02

And so, in the lack of new research, I think it was easy for people to just be found on pornography use in Christians and churches and to try to bring back to the surface and put a spotlight on hey, here's what's happening in this issue, and not just to create guilt or shame or make us all feel bad, like oh yeah, everybody struggles, but to create some motivation to say we have to do something, we can do something, there are options available to us now that we've seen this reality, that we're going to embrace and run with it and that's been our hope all along is that the data would lead to action, and so we just felt like God had put that in front of us, and as we reached out to Barna, they said no, nobody else is doing it.

Speaker 2: 4:51

But it is the question that we get asked more than any other is when are you going to update the porn phenomenon? And so we said, okay, god, we feel like you're leading us to do this and to get this research out there, and it's been a really intriguing and enjoyable and challenging process over the last year plus to get this data out there. But, yeah, it's, I think, really illuminating and the topic of our conversation today.

Speaker 1: 5:19

Thank, you so much for serving all of us in our communities by making this available, when you talk about this reality that we are in. What were some of the major findings of the study?

Speaker 2: 5:31

Well, of course, the leading question that many will ask is well, how many people are struggling? And that's kind of the top of funnel, like what's the reality. So Barna does a great job with qualitative research not necessarily quantitative and we even ask that like, well, hey, if we pay more, can you interview more people and can we make this tens of thousands? And they said, as they work with researchers, they've really found there is a point at which you are just getting more of the same data that you've already collected. And so they said we make sure that we get a more than sufficient sample of the US population, male and female, young and old. And once we've reached that quota, so to speak, we know we've got it because they go all across the country, all the different demographics. And so when they looked at that and we identified people who were practicing Christians, and so in the survey they would have revealed that their faith was important to them and they attended church on a regular basis.

Speaker 2: 6:26

And among practicing Christians, we found that 54% of practicing Christians would say that they're viewing pornography to some extent, which, in my knowledge, is the first time that any major survey has shown that a majority of people in the church would say yeah, this is an issue. I'm having you break that down. It's 75% of our men, but also a full 40% of women. So two in five women also marked I'm viewing pornography at least occasionally, and that number has grown, I think, by about 8% since the data that was out in 2016. And we're also able to break it down by age groups and you find the numbers grow among younger adults, and so for millennial women and Gen Z women, that number climbs to 62% and 64%. And Gen Z women that number climbs to 62% and 64%. So nearly two thirds of our young adult women would say I'm struggling with pornography as well. So that was some pretty major data.

Speaker 2: 7:23

And then, among that same group of practicing Christians, the question was asked does anybody know about your struggle? And they were given the options of family, friend, pastor, an adult I don't even know, accountability partner, and then one of the options was no one, and 48% of practicing Christians said no one knows, and I thought that was really eye-opening to say that nearly half of all Christians that would say this is an issue for me also say and nobody has any idea, and I think that underscores man. We have got to create safety in this area, for people to find help to normalize help without normalizing the behavior. One other piece of data that I thought was also very compelling people were asked how comfortable of those who marked I use pornography to some extent. They were asked how comfortable are you with your pornography use and only 21% of Christians said I wish I didn't use pornography at all.

Speaker 2: 8:23

Half said I'm comfortable with how much pornography I'm using, and I think that underscores the ways in which we have unfortunately normalized the behavior. We've accepted it as something that people do. You know I've tried to change and I can't really change anyway, and it's is it that big of a deal? After all, no one's being hurt. You know these are all paid performance.

Speaker 2: 8:42

You know the same reasoning that we may be here in culture, I think, has seeped deeply into the church and into faith communities where now half of all Christians who are struggling with pornography say I really have no problem with the amount that I'm using. And so for me, and hopefully for you and others that are working in this space, it's a reminder that maybe a majority of those that we could help don't even think they need it. And so what do we do to create in a healthy way, to create conviction, to create a vision that how much better life could be, how much stronger your faith could be, if we were willing to tackle this problem and not just accept that well, I'm just, you know, I'm just a man, I'm just going to struggle till I die to say no change is possible. And I think that was, like I said, eyeopening for us to realize we need to keep casting that vision so that people want to live a life free of pornography.

Speaker 1: 9:43

Amen. Yeah, that level of comfort with pornography rising feels very alarming to me and probably reflects some of the changes in the last 10 years.

Speaker 2: 9:50

Well, it's so ubiquitous I mean a big word to say it's everywhere.

Speaker 2: 9:54

We are all now one click away from bad decisions and content that we would regret and that access has.

Speaker 2: 10:00

But our growth compared to the smartphone, ai, um, the devices that now connect to the internet, including our refrigerators and our washing machines and, you know, our cars so the availability of that content is just exponentially growing, and the response we're we're, we're lagging behind, and so I think that's some of what we're seeing is just this broad acceptance of it's everywhere. If you can't beat them, join them, and let's just do our best to kind of, you know, to try to keep this under control. But I mean, as you and I know, pornography use, compulsive sexual behavior, is not something we control or maintain. It is always growing, it increases in nature and eventually it controls us, and so I do hope there are pieces of that that become a little bit of an alarm bell ringing to say we've got to wake up to some issues here, and so how could we be a part of seeing that happen, rather than just burying our heads in the sand and hoping it gets better?

Speaker 1: 11:12

Yeah. And in your preface to the research you said when asked who is helping you with your struggle with pornography, a staggering 82% of Christians say no one.

Speaker 2: 11:25

Well, it kind of goes along with the no one knows. And it would make sense that if you add to that, even for those that would say someone knows, they still feel like this is mine to deal with alone. And if we're honest, that's the message most of us have received from our world maybe the church, maybe other sincere adults that it's kind of like this is a moral issue. You need to go, fix it. Stop doing that, don't do it anymore. And then you know, make better choices. And so so we we hear a powerful sermon or read a great book or listen to a podcast, like, okay, that was the last time, never again I'm gonna stop.

Speaker 2: 12:04

And we feel like it's this, do it on my own kind of thing, and that almost feels noble, like it's up to me and it's a personal topic, it's private, it's it can be awkward and messy, and so some ways that even makes sense, like I'll just do this myself. And yet what we have found repeatedly is that is not a formula for success. I mean, that's the very formula that got most of us stuck in the first place, that we engaged in a behavior that was isolated, that created patterns of shame and secrecy in our life, and then, in that same isolation and secrecy, we're trying to get better. Well, no wonder, then? The data shows that we're not getting better. We're actually increasing in our struggle because we feel like it's something I'm supposed to do by myself, and yet that just simply doesn't work Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 12:50

I was very surprised that 66% of people in this study believe that with enough willpower, a person can overcome porn addiction on their own that is so not true, and we don't apply that reasoning to other vices in our culture.

Speaker 2: 13:10

Right, like if someone came to you and it had a 20-year battle with gambling or a 15-year challenge with binge eating or had been on drugs and, as I'm sure you've talked about on your podcast and we talk about a lot there are very real physical chemicals released in the brain, things like dopamine. That the way that pornography use accentuates dopamine in the brain is on par with what cocaine is doing. And yet if a cocaine addict came to you and said, yeah, I've been struggling with cocaine off and on for 20 years, but I've got the will now to stop, I'm sure I'm going to just stop, I don't think any of us would look at that person and go, yeah, you're right. Now that you've made the decision and you've got the will to do it, you're going to be, you're fine, right, you're good to go. No, we'd all say I think you're going to need some support. I think you'll probably need a group or a program or you'll need to walk with others that have been down this road and they know how to beat this.

Speaker 2: 14:05

Because this isn't just something that the pattern quits because you decide it's time to quit. It's got a hold in your life and that's the reason it's been there for so long, and so I think if we could apply that reasoning you're right we should be surprised to say what is it about this topic that we have so even in the church? We have so made it a private thing, a personal thing. Do it on your own church. We have so made it a private thing, a personal thing. Do it on your own. Just make a choice, don't look at it.

Speaker 2: 14:30

And yet the data again just shows that is not working. And so some of it is that mindset that we have to switch our paradigm away from believing it's a moral problem. With enough willpower, I just stop to saying I'm going to need to take some significant steps towards healing and recovery and I think, as we embrace that in our communities, in our nonprofits, in our churches, we're going to be able to provide people the kind of support they need. But it starts again. That's, I think, hopefully, the power of the data is that we look at it and say you know what?

Speaker 2: 15:01

What we've been doing, is not working. We need some additional support or strategies here. And then that's where groups like husband and material and pure desire and others can come alongside and say yes, and that's what we're here for. We're here to help as you enter into that journey. You're not alone, you don't have to do it by yourself, you don't have to reinvent the wheel and figure out this whole thing on your own. We've walked this road and we want to walk with you, and so I hope that kind of that positive, hopeful message can come out of the data as well.

Speaker 1: 15:30

Yes, and the same is true for sexual betrayal trauma. I really appreciate how you all brought that into the study too and are actively telling people like hey, we have support not just for the person directly struggling, but also those who are impacted.

Speaker 2: 15:48

Yeah, absolutely. There's some pretty telling stats and people can look at them because I don't have them all top of mind, but you know, we asked men who were using pornography about the impact on their relationship versus whose spouse was using pornography and it's just like across the board their opinions of the health of their relationship, how healthy they think it is for their relationship. The user is like, oh, it's not that big of a deal, percentage-wise it's fine, it's not impacting our relationship, and the spouse is like it's a big deal, it's hurting us, trust is being violated. I don't know how I feel about my own body now, the way the chart shows it. It's pretty striking to see.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Oh, this is a very different experience between the user, who's probably stuck in some minimizing, rationalizing, denying, versus the spouse, who's feeling the reality of why is our marriage not enough? Why am I not enough? How come they don't trust me? How do I trust them when they're doing these things behind my back? And again, if we can highlight that to say, if we look around in our society or church and feel like marriages aren't thriving, that too many people are getting divorced, I think we need to address pornography as one of those root causes and see that the impact it's having on a relationship is very different between the person struggling and the person being impacted by it.

Speaker 1: 17:09

Yeah, that is so important. I noticed a huge difference between how men view porn and how women view porn. For men it was way more positive and for women it was way more negative.

Speaker 2: 17:20

Within the relationship. They were asked, you know, if your spouse was using pornography? Do you view that as a positive or a negative thing? And a majority of men actually said their spouse using pornography was a positive thing. And I think in my opinion now this wasn't asked in the data, but I think when I look at it, I say very often when a man has someone, a wife using pornography, it's as a way to create maybe more intrigue in the bedroom, to spice up their sex life. They see it as a way to help things along and maybe in the short run it has created that because pornography has a very artificial boost, a way that it boosts our hormones and chemicals and maybe like, hey, man, that was great.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Whereas a wife who has a husband using pornography 61% said that was a negative thing.

Speaker 2: 18:10

And I think they're recognizing that it's creating unrealistic expectations, it's causing them not to bond with one another but to bond with the screen.

Speaker 2: 18:18

And I think again, much like my earlier answer, when you see that discrepancy of the way it's viewed between that discrepancy of the way it's viewed between that, I mean, if there was any area in a marriage that you found out, most men thought it was good and most women thought it was bad. I think as leaders, as pastors, as friends, we'd say, hey, there's caution here, because there's a real divide, there's a disconnect between what you think is happening, what your spouse thinks is happening and anywhere in a relationship that's occurring. That there's a divide, that one sees a negative and the other sees a positive. That's going to create friction, tension and potentially a real division in a marriage. And so some of those data tells a striking story that hopefully we can pay attention to and say boy, this is impacting marriages and it's so important because one of the primary lies is no one is being hurt. And I think the data paints a picture to say it is impacting and damaging the marriage relationship at a pretty fundamental level.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Yeah, what aspects of the research were most surprising for you?

Speaker 2: 19:22

The data that I already mentioned about, that only 21% wish they didn't use pornography at all. I felt like that was a little bit of a lifting the blinders moment because I think I make an assumption maybe you do, maybe others do that if we're a Christian who is a person of convictions, we want to follow the Lord, we're seeking to live what the Bible says. That by and large, 95% of us would say, yeah, I want to live a life free of lust and adultery and pornography in my life and yet to have that be 21% was very telling of okay. I think maybe we're missing something here. Sadly, beyond that, I don't know that too much of it was surprising, except maybe in terms of almost across the board, no matter what question we asked. If you compared it to 2016, it's gotten about eight to 10% worse in the last seven years. We're just headed the wrong direction and I think many of us have felt that.

Speaker 2: 20:16

But what is maybe a grain of hopefulness is some of the answers that we found from Gen Z, because Gen Z men and women had a stronger opinion that pornography was bad for society than millennials did. They had a stronger opinion that pornography was bad for relationships than millennials did. They were more likely to ask for help. They were more likely to want their church to talk about it little bit of a pendulum swing where our youngest adults, you know, the kids that grew up with smartphones and screens from the very beginning and are now adults are able to look at this and say this has not been good for our generation. And we've seen people that go that route and what it's done to them or their view of people or relationships or sex, and it's not healthy and we're ready to do something about it. So that's a little bit of hope. They're only a little bit ahead of millennials, you know, and we wish they were way ahead, but it's actually the first generation that we're starting to see some of the numbers go in a different direction. And that might speak to, I think, a lot of churches and leaders because, if we're honest, we're talking about adults under the age of 25, that tends to be a demographic that doesn't get a very loud voice in most churches or faith communities and I think to encourage that generation and say we need to hear your voice Most of us that are.

Speaker 2: 21:36

You know, I'm Gen X, so I became a teenager and a young adult when the internet was kind of exploding and some of the numbers of pornography use are worse among Gen X than they are even millennials, because I think we encountered the internet at a time we had no idea what to do with it and it may be because of that become a little. You know, we try to ignore the subject. Where Gen Z it's open, it's talked about, it's like they see it, it's their experience and they're the voices I think we need to listen to that say we've got to do better and we need our churches to do better. We need them to be places we can talk about this and find help and not feel like we have to go somewhere else to get help in this critical area of our life. So if we can listen to Gen Z in this area, I think we'll be doing ourself a tremendous favor.

Speaker 1: 22:22

And I love that. It's so encouraging. And, by the way, if you all don't know, nick has written a book called Safe about creating those safe spaces, which you might want to check out in the description for this. That would be awesome about this topic and also hear what they have to say In terms of solutions. What are your thoughts about the data and, specifically, the most effective solutions for overcoming and outgrowing porn?

Speaker 2: 23:00

And to me it's where I look at some of those stats we've talked about that are very maybe alarming or discouraging that 82% say no one is helping me. 48% of Christians say no one even knows. And I look at the silver lining there on the flip side to say what if that 82% number that says no one is helping me said someone is helping me, is helping me? What if the 48% said there are people who know, because I've had a safe place and safe people who have said we want to help you. You can own your negative sexual history or story and you're not going to be rejected here, you're going to be loved in a safe, confidential environment where you can tell your whole story among peers that are doing the same thing. I just think we can see those and go man. If openness and safety and community is lacking, well, what if we provided that? And that's so much of what we major in in Pure Desire and what we're hoping is kind of that motivator to say we need to get people out of doing this on their own. The 66% that think it's just a matter of willpower or that the number one answer. You know sometimes in surveys an answer is descriptive, not prescriptive. So people were asked like who do you feel comfortable going to with your problem? Well, the number one answer was a counselor. But even the number one answer was less than 50% of people said they'd feel comfortable telling a counselor. So by and large, we don't feel comfortable in this issue or safe or appropriate to go to anyone. And I look at that and say, man, that is such an opportunity for adults that have, you know, raising kids, for small groups, for pastors and leaders in churches, to say how do we create environments and just keep saying that message of you don't have to do this alone, you don't have to hide this and we're not just going to send you away to a professional whose job it is to help you and and who you pay to hear your, you know about your sins and your problems. We actually want that to happen among the people that know you and care about you and love you.

Speaker 2: 25:00

And we have seen you know it's my story and I know a lot of yours as well that when I was able to tell my story, my whole story, I just I don't mean just saying, yeah, I struggle with pornography once in a while, I mean telling my whole story of what had happened in my past, what were the wounds that created lies in my life that made me even seek out for sexual things as a teenager, how that became a part of my pattern, when I could tell that whole story with other men who were on the same journey and find that they didn't run away from me. They didn't say what the heck was wrong with you, what were you thinking, but instead looked at me with compassion and understanding and said, yeah, me too, or I've been there, I know what that feels like and you get that sense of acceptance and love in those deepest places. That's what changes you and and we couldn't really ask about you know, like how, how do people change? Because the survey was really to just determine the reality of the struggle and you can't in a survey necessarily get at some of those pieces. But I think it tells the story that isolation is the problem, community is the solution, gathering people together in those spaces where this is normalized again, where we normalize the conversation without normalizing the behavior.

Speaker 2: 26:15

I think the data does tell that story of community and that need to create those kinds of places where people say you know what, back to that list of who. Do you feel comfortable talking to? Someone's pastor or spiritual leader was number nine. I mean, there were all these other options, like your doctor, an adult, you don't. People would rather go to an adult they don't even know than to their own pastor. And I look at that and say, what an opportunity. What if pastors became the number one place that people are like oh, are you struggling? You should go talk to our pastor. They are so helpful with this topic, they know what to do. They'll help connect you to a group of people. Like what a difference that could make if that was people's go to it. And obviously we're not there, but I think we can definitely move in that direction.

Speaker 1: 27:00

Yeah, no-transcript. And almost all of them said I would want a dad to be talking, I would want a mom to be teaching about this, and then how many respondents actually had that experience of like a healthy, safe, supportive conversation with their parents? It was like two and 3%. Yeah, very low. Oh, I mean, that is just so sad. So many of us have been abandoned in this area. We've been neglected and we didn't even know it because we thought it was normal.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Well, our parents, to their credit, were many of them. They were doing the best they could with what they had. They weren't given any better models. They, you know, I've had this conversation now with my dad as an adult and we had one birds and bees talk when I was about 11 years old, which was incredibly awkward and eyeopening and helpful, like I think my dad did a great job, but that was the only time I remember talking about it, and when we've brought that up, you know, in my story now, he said you know, nick, my dad and I never talked about it ever, and so I felt like I was doing better, that at least we'd had a good talk, and I answered some questions and he said you just didn't do that and I didn't know what to say or what I should say. And you know, I of course did my best to love you and be there for you, but he just didn't have a paradigm of even what did it look like to support kids growing up and figuring out godly sexuality in our world. And so it underscores that, whether you know, we're 18 or 88 or anywhere in between, most of us were never trained, we were never equipped, and I think that's the opportunities that people have with groups like yours and ours to say just lean into this material, lean into the resources. We have much of it's free, watch videos, listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2: 29:19

Because as we get a little bit of equipping and we start to understand the nature of addiction and how this impacts the brain and how it's not just a choice in the moment, but it's usually the outcome of a pattern that's been operating in our lives for, sometimes decades. Like when we start to see those things, then we understand the kind of questions to ask someone how to support our kids when when they, you know, bring to us something that happened at a friend's house or tell us something came up on their phone when we've never talked about it, our natural reaction will be to kind of freeze up and a little shock, like I don't know what to do with this Cause. I haven't thought about it. But if, if we've been equipped and educated and it's like man, I'm ready for this.

Speaker 2: 30:00

I didn't just say to our kids I'm here to help you. I'm so glad you brought this to me because I want to be a part of standing with you in this journey and you're not alone. And I can relate, because I had to figure some of this stuff out when I was a kid but I had no one to help me and I hope I can be there to help you. I mean, what a difference that makes. So a little plug there to say take advantage of resources where you can be equipped and educated in this, so that we can change that narrative for the next generation. And it's part of it starts by changing the narrative for ourselves.

Speaker 1: 30:34

Amen. So if you are looking for resources or groups for sex addiction and betrayal trauma both sides of this issue are an amazing focus for Pure Desire you can go to puredesireorg. And if you want to join Nick and I live, come to the Porn Free man Conference on January 10th and 11th. Let's go. Nick is going to be giving us a game plan for lifelong integrity. Can you say more about it?

Speaker 2: 31:11

Absolutely. I think on your podcast I shared my story in an older one. You know, for 15 years I was struggling with a binge purge issue with pornography. I loved the Lord, I didn't want it in my life. Every time was the last time and I had guardrails. I had boundaries which I repeatedly either broke or they didn't help me, and I think there are ways in which we can construct a winning game plan where guardrails are a significant part of it. But those guardrails need to be deeply tied to our story and to our personalized experience and patterns. Tied to our story and to our personalized experience and patterns. And I think a lot of men and women you know maybe have some general boundaries of I'm not on social media or I don't take my cell phone in the bathroom. There's just some good wisdom and those are helpful. But if that's all we have, without a more robust plan of boundaries that we need and who we're committed to sharing those with as well as the other half of the equation is what we'll talk about as well.

Speaker 2: 32:08

Because when you think about a boundary in our life, as important as they are, what does a boundary say to you? A boundary says no, and your brain has been designed by God to not like the word no. Your brain has been designed to like the word yes. Your brain has been designed to like the word yes. And many of us have never thought as hard as much about what is the yes. Because I need healthy boundaries absolutely and I need to know what my yes is. Where do I go for renewal, for encouragement, for joy, for fun? And essentially, that isn't two different things, those are all part of one, in the same plan, so that I can look at it and say, oh, here's my game plan, the things that I'm choosing to avoid so I can stay healthy, and all the choices I'm making instead. And I believe when we do that well and when we connect it to our story, it isn't just about recovery, it's a way of doing life, and that's what I hope people can see from the talk that I'll bring.

Speaker 1: 33:06

I am so excited about that idea of connecting our strategies to our stories in a way that says, yes, that's empowering, as if you don't have a plan for freedom from porn in 2025, or if you have a plan but it's not as deep as what Nick described, then you are definitely going to want to come to this. We have a great lineup of speakers, and Nick is going to be one of them, and then we also will have a panel discussion where all speakers will be answering your questions live. This is not prerecorded. This is going to be in the moment and would love to have you there. You can go to thepornfreemancom to register for free, and you can also go down to the links in the show notes to get a copy of Beyond the Porn Phenomenon, to check out Pure Desire. Nick, thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker 2: 33:54

Thanks again for having me and I hope people will check it out. I'll mention one other thing about Beyond the Porn Phenomenon there is now Barna has been willing to make it free something called the church toolkit. So if you get the report you can get a free church toolkit that includes five more videos from people like Julie Slattery and Sean McDowell uh, myself and Ashley on our team are on it and it also includes an assessment that if you are a leader of a nonprofit, a church, a community, you could take that assessment to your community and maybe you're wondering, I wonder what this issue looks like among my people in my community. You could have an assessment for your own church or community and get at some of that a very simplified version of the report from your people and get at that reality and that might be very illuminating as well. So that's all free. Look for the church toolkit as part of the Barna report.

Speaker 1: 34:47

I'm going to have to take a look at that. I mean, that would be so great if so many of us would mobilize and bring this to our churches, and I think it might drive the point home out there it's like what about us?

Speaker 2: 35:00

Well, let's, let's look at it, and they've they've set it up in a way. It can be totally anonymous. You, Well, let's look at it and they've set it up in a way it can be totally anonymous. You just get the data from how many people took it and the results. So it could be a very powerful tool to implement.

Speaker 1: 35:11

Absolutely so. We'll put the link to that in the show notes. Thanks again, nick and gentlemen, always remember you are God's beloved son and you, he is well pleased.