Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today's episode was really special because I got to interview my favorite podcaster, adam Young. We talk about how to make sense of your story, especially the story of your sexuality. According to Adam, engaging your story is the single most important thing you can do to experience healing and, I would add, to outgrow pornography. It is so powerful. You are going to get so many insights, not only about yourself, but also about God and what it might mean for you to have a new relationship with your sexual arousal, with your sexual shame, and you're going to get a preview of Adam's presentation at the upcoming Porn-Free man conference. You can register for free at thepornfreemancom. It's going to be a time live with Adam where he's going to be guiding us into engaging God about our stories.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Enjoy the episode Today. I am so excited to be hanging out with Adam Young, and he is not only the host of the Place we Find Ourselves podcast, but also the author of this upcoming book Make Sense of your Story. Welcome, adam, thank you. It's good to be with you. It's great to be with you too. What do you mean when you say your story?

Speaker 2: 2:14

Oh, that's a great place to start. Well, I mean it in two ways. We could say biblically, and I mean it neurobiologically. So in terms of biblically, 70% of the scriptures is narrative. In other words, a huge chunk of the Bible is devoted to telling the stories of people, characters, people in the scriptures, and by stories I mean the experiences that they have had over the course of their life, particularly with regard to their desires and their disappointments.

Speaker 2: 2:54

So I don't know any way to talk about story apart from your desires and your disappointments, and the nature of life is that desires and disappointments create energy and movement into particular directions. When your heart is broken, you find yourself needing to make choices about how you're going to respond, how you're going to live. When a desire that you have is unmet, it puts your heart in crisis and from those places of crisis we tend to make choices, we do stuff, we respond, we move in different directions and all of us do different things in those moments, but those moments shape the trajectory of the next phase of your life and that becomes the next chapter in your story. So, biblically, you can see Abraham, you can see Jacob, you can see Joseph. That's just Genesis.

Speaker 2: 3:55

These people had stories, ie experiences in the world that were hard and that they responded to in particular ways which we now read, and we are either inspired by or challenged by or annoyed by. But we read what happened to them as they responded to the heartaches in their lives. But I also mean story neurobiologically, in other words, you've got neurons in your brain and the neurons in your brain are connected to each other in only one of two ways either genetics so my eye color genetics, my height genetics but apart from genetics, every single neuronal connection you have in your brain is a function of the experiences that you've had in life. So when I say story, all I mean is your life experiences, what happened to you, but particularly what happened to you when your brain was developing at a rapid rate, ie when you were younger and growing up in your family of origin.

Speaker 1: 5:05

And these experiences from our earliest ages shape our sexuality.

Speaker 2: 5:12

They shape everything, including sexuality, which is a big part of life, right?

Speaker 1: 5:16

So how do our stories affect our arousal and maybe even relationship with porn?

Speaker 2: 5:26

Well, I think everyone deserves to take some time and reflect on what I would call their sexual story. In other words, how did you first learn about sexuality? How did you first learn about arousal? How were you introduced to the notion that you are a sexual being and that human beings have sexual relationships? Like, everyone needs to at some point ponder how they came to be aware that they were a sexual being, because, for some of us, we had parents who sat us down and who gradually, over a series of conversations, introduced us into the mystery of sexuality.

Speaker 2: 6:17

But that's the minority of my experience of people. Most people did not find out about sexuality through a caretaker, a mentor, an older, you know, wiser person that could initiate them into the mysteries of their own sexuality. And, absent that, we find out about it at school. We find out about it online. We find out about it through pornography. We find out about it through other kids in the neighborhood. We find out about it through abuse. I mean there's so many ways that, tragically, that we find out about it through abuse. I mean there's so many ways that, tragically, that we find out about our sexuality that are not, we could say, good for the heart.

Speaker 1: 7:04

Yeah, you made a bold claim in this book when you said no one makes it to adulthood without experiencing some form of sexual harm.

Speaker 2: 7:18

Yeah, I believe that to be true. It doesn't mean that everyone has experienced sexual abuse. It does mean that sexuality is such a tremendous gift of God that the kingdom of evil despises your sexuality and, as a result, in my experience, I've never met someone that has made it to the, you know, to age 30 without some story of sexual harm, sexual shame, sexual heartache, and so pondering those stories and like writing them down is a really important part of getting to know your own heart and your own brain, and that heart is going to be what drives your sexuality going forward. So isn't it important to know something about the stories that have shaped the brain, the heart that you bring to bear on your future sexual experiences?

Speaker 1: 8:16

Your work and the work of others, like Jay Stringer, have really convinced me of that. And yet I hear so many objections, especially from Christians who are really committed to the Bible, who say things like well, that's actually not biblical. Like you're dwelling on the past, yeah, You're not actually doing what needs to be done, which is actually not biblical. Like you're dwelling on the past, you're not actually doing what needs to be done, which is repentance.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yes, great words. Two thoughts that immediately come to mind. One is according to Romans 2.4, it's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. So that needs to be held in mind any time you're talking about repentance. What and by held in mind I mean what is the kindness of God inviting you to engage in this moment with regard to your sexuality? That's number one. Number two, with regard to dwelling on the past, the way I wrote it in the book is nobody ever comes home and says you know, I had a great day today. I spent two hours dwelling on my past.

Speaker 2: 9:21

I mean, the phrase has become pejorative, particularly in Christian circles. Dwelling on the past is like a bad thing. But I don't think God, the God of the Bible, has any interest in us ignoring the past, formative experiences that have profoundly shaped the neurons in our brain, which is another way of saying the Hebrew notion of heart. In the Hebrew Bible, the heart refers to not just your feelings, but your will, your emotions, your drives, your passions, what drives you. And so to reflect on the past is the only way to take responsibility for the present and to enter the future with some measure of, we could say, desire that is not constrained by previous stories, previous narratives. If you don't look at your past story, you are going to get caught in what's called reenactment and all that it's a fancy word for saying. You're going to find yourself bound by certain things, doing certain things that are linked to the past, that you refuse to engage.

Speaker 1: 10:38

And that is so true sexually.

Speaker 2: 10:40

It's so true sexually? Yeah, absolutely, because sexuality is something that's far more in our brains than in our genitalia, and so sexuality is about what makes you come alive, what turns you on, what gives you a sense of arousal. The answers to those questions are not random. I mean, what turns me on is probably different than what turns you on, and there's a reason for that, and those reasons are rooted in our respective stories. And again, I don't think God has any shame. I mean it's absurd to have to say this. God is the creator of sexuality, god is the creator of arousal. God is not ashamed of your story, and particularly your sexual story story and particularly your sexual story. So why do you have shame about exploring how you came to be aroused by the things that arouse you.

Speaker 1: 11:44

Well, there are reasons for that. There are. There are good reasons. I loved when you said the memories that hold the deepest shame for you will be the very memories that can set you free.

Speaker 2: 11:59

I think that's true. It's certainly been true in my personal life. It's been true in my clinical experience working with people I mean, I can't tell you how many people when we bump up against their sexual shame, there is so much energy to not enter those stories, particularly stories of sexual abuse, and there's a sense of if I go there it won't do any good, it won't produce any good fruit. Nothing good could come from this, nothing freeing, and in my experience it's the exact opposite. Whenever I get close to someone else's sexual shame, I feel like we are in a gold mine, on the precipice of breakthrough into new levels of freedom for them. Why? Because shame, sexual shame that is unexamined, will inevitably keep you stuck. It will keep you bound.

Speaker 2: 12:55

You know, I remember as a kindergartner being aroused by two moms. One was across the street, one was four doors down, mrs Heidenreich and Mrs McPherson and when I remembered that stuff, like as an adult in my 30s, I had immense shame about that. I'm like, what kind of kindergartner gets aroused by the mothers of his friends? So I had lots of shame about that. But when someone was willing to walk with me with kindness into those stories, it led me to uncover that my mother had worked to arouse me sexually in so many different ways, in so many different facets, and that helped me uncover the beginnings of my sexual abuse with my mom. And so the shame was like a trailhead, and it led me on a journey into freedom and into immense relief when I realized, oh, there's a reason. I was aroused by Mrs Heidenreich.

Speaker 1: 14:02

Mm-hmm, I love the relief that comes with those realizations. Absolutely it can take away the power of some of those things Mm-hmm. It can make some of those thoughts and feelings less intense. At the same time, I appreciate how you don't view emotions as something to be kept under control.

Speaker 2: 14:28

Yeah yeah, emotions aren't designed to be kept under control. Yeah yeah, emotions aren't designed to be kept under anything. I mean, emotions are gifts from God that are designed it's in the word emotion to evoke motion. So sadness evokes the motion of moving your body towards another person for comfort. Anger evokes the motion of kind of like I'm pushing my hands up, like saying stop, this is not good, I don't like this, stop it. Emotions are intended to prompt us to move our bodies in a way that is responding to the feelings inside, and when we do that, things flow, and by things I mean feelings inside, bodily sensations flow, as opposed to stuffing those emotions down or sweeping them under the rug, which keeps us stuck because there's no flow possible.

Speaker 1: 15:39

Exactly so. When we stuff our stories down or we don't engage them because we don't want to get emotional or we don't want to go there, we're staying stuck.

Speaker 2: 15:51

That's right. Yeah, a story that is unexamined, that is untold, that is unwritten, is inevitably a story that is very powerfully at play in your heart in ways that you may not be aware of, and it's keeping you stuck.

Speaker 1: 16:07

So we don't have to be afraid to engage our stories and we don't have to be afraid to feel our emotions.

Speaker 2: 16:14

I don't think so. I mean, there's certainly a sense of like this is risky, this is scary to do, but it's worth doing because your body is a truth teller, it is a trustworthy prophet from within. And by a truth teller I mean if you listen to the sensations in your body, and all emotions are first a combination of sensations. So you may experience fear as a tightening of the, a clenching of the jaw, like a burning sensation in your chest. Emotions are first bodily sensations and if you listen to those sensations, if you welcome them, they will speak. They will let you know some things about what they are needing you to do, so that those emotions can express themselves and flow through you. Yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 1: 17:12

Would you say sexual arousal is like an emotion.

Speaker 2: 17:17

I wouldn't call it an emotion. Nobody's ever asked me to classify it like that. I would say that sexual arousal is a bodily-based sensation of excitement, intrigue and desire. It can be intense at times, but it ranges on a spectrum. I mean you can be aroused to level one and you can be aroused to level 10 on a scale of one to 10. So arousal exists on a spectrum. The question is, what is your relationship to your sexual arousal? Like? What's your posture when you find yourself aroused at a level five? Like are you ashamed of that? Are you afraid of that? Are you trying to tamp that down? You know what's your relationship to your arousal Because, just like you have a relationship to your anger, a relationship to your sorrow, you have a relationship to your sexual arousal. You have feelings about it.

Speaker 1: 18:17

In other words, and many of us have some level of shame about our arousal- and often a fear and an impulse to attack it or avoid it, because it has led us back into pornography or similar behaviors.

Speaker 2: 18:35

There's often fear, Absolutely. There's a sense of oh crap, it's an unwelcome visitor and I wish it would just go away for many people.

Speaker 1: 18:46

So if I feel like the part of me that wants to watch porn is an unwelcome visitor, what are my options?

Speaker 2: 18:53

Great question. One option is to try and make it go away, and that option rarely works. It might work temporarily, but it's not going to work permanently. Why? Because you are shoving a part of you into the basement of your heart. You're like putting a part of you into a room in the basement and telling him or her to stay put and to never knock the door and to never come out and play. If your sexual arousal is a gift from God, if there are no bad parts of your heart, if everyone is welcome the angry part, the sad part, the grieving part, the aroused part then what would it look like to set a table for the aroused part at your dinner table, set a place, setting like you would if you were having a friend over and just bring some curiosity, some hospitality, some kindness and be like okay, what do you have to tell me? That's a very different posture than pushing somebody into the basement.

Speaker 1: 20:12

What are some things you might hear when you ask that question?

Speaker 2: 20:15

Well, right away. You're going to hear desire. You're going to hear sexual desire. I want something sexual, and the options from there are, you know, innumerable, because everyone's sexual desires are different. But you're going to hear some version of I want, okay. Okay, tell me more about what you want. Like that's such a different posture than you are an unwelcome visitor. Slam the door shut Right. But it's scary to many people to shift their posture from unwelcome to welcome. Why? Because they're afraid that if they do that, their desire is going to run rampant and do damage in their life, and all I would say is why do you think that? Why are you so convinced that welcoming this part of you is going to blow up your life?

Speaker 1: 21:27

Well, that is often what happens when we try to make these parts go away.

Speaker 2: 21:32

That's what happens when we try and make the part. Very often they come out sideways. And when they come out sideways, let me continue with my analogy when they break through the basement door and announce themselves with a vengeance because they are angry at you ignoring them, they often do damage to yourself or to others, but that's not because the aroused part is bad. It's because you are not listening and welcoming it, are not listening and welcoming it and it's pissed at you for your posture of like shut up and leave me alone, because it's not going anywhere.

Speaker 1: 22:17

I've been reflecting on this and the best way I can say it is any part of yourself that you hate will hide and retaliate.

Speaker 2: 22:27

That's a very good sentence, and sometimes it will hide. I think it will always. If by retaliate you mean bang on the door and say I am here, deal with me, then yes, I think that every part of you that you do not welcome will sooner or later demand attention, and that's good, like good for it, good for those parts.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Yeah, it's good for us to hear what these thoughts and feelings are trying to tell us. Yes, you mentioned how we often hear a desire underneath it. Yes, which is deeper than the surface level sexual stuff.

Speaker 2: 23:15

Oh, often it's so much deeper.

Speaker 1: 23:18

And it's also connected to our disappointments too.

Speaker 2: 23:23

Yes, absolutely, Absolutely. And who among us does not have this immense sexual disappointment? Sexuality is fraught and, as a result, all of us carry not only sexual harm but sexual disappointment.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Where we wanted sexual connection and it was refused for whatever reason, and it was refused for whatever reason, and it could also be the emotional disappointments as well, our desires and our disappointments, as you said, are so connected. So a common reaction to that is to try to get rid of our desires or dampen our desires and maybe choose to not want.

Speaker 2: 24:07

Yes.

Speaker 1: 24:08

To settle for less.

Speaker 2: 24:10

That's very, very common, especially among Christian folks.

Speaker 1: 24:16

So Adam, how do you help someone deepen their desires and maybe entertain hope?

Speaker 2: 24:31

Yeah, great word, hope. For many of us, the reason we turn to a posture of trying to kill desire, which never fully works, is we don't want to deal with the whole realm of hope. In other words, I hoped that I would have sexual connection with my wife last night, last week, last month, and that went terrible. And I cannot bear to hope again tonight. And so I will try to dull down, numb down, tamp down my wanter, my sexual wanter. You know, I don't know anyone that hasn't, you know, been caught in that bind at some point in their life. The question is not so much what is your relationship to sexuality? The question there is what is your war with hope? What is your war with hope? Because our wars with hope inevitably confront us with our relationship with God. What can I trust that God will do for me in the land of the living?

Speaker 2: 25:41

And I have this term called Christian cynicism.

Speaker 2: 25:44

There's nothing Christian about it, but I hear it from Christians a lot, and it comes in the form of look, Adam, it's a broken world, I'm not going to get everything I want until heaven, so stop wanting.

Speaker 2: 25:57

It's cynicism that's fueled by theology, but it's horrible theology why? Because it's premised on the idea of unrealistic expectations. On the idea of unrealistic expectations, the idea is it's unrealistic, Adam, for me to expect that all my desires are going to be met Okay, but you don't know which ones. You don't know which ones, and there is nothing more unrealistic than the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave. And so you, if you're Christian, you are living in the reality that what was the most unrealistic thing on the planet from happening the raising of a man from the dead happened. So you are dealing with a world we could say of wonder and of gift and of surprise, but you don't want to wrestle with God about your particular hopes and desires, because it's too painful. So these are the wars that sexuality so often ushers us into. They are wars with God and they are wars with hope.

Speaker 1: 27:12

And those wars are very painful and often I mean that's an understatement, yeah. And yet I think some of us don't feel permission. We don't feel permission to be honest with God.

Speaker 2: 27:28

We don't feel permission to be honest with God, absolutely. So many Christians that I've worked with that I know, including myself have learned that it is not appropriate for me to wrestle with God. It's not permitted for me to feel disappointment in God or anger at God. God's God. I'm a creature. He's the creator, I'm the created. Who am I? The thinking goes. Who am I to war with God about my desires and disappointments? I'm called to surrender that stuff.

Speaker 2: 28:10

This is the thinking, and one of my favorite passages whenever somebody is saying this to me is what's known in the Bible as the parable of the persistent widow in Luke 18. It should be called the parable of the widow who refused to surrender to God's will, because the whole point of the parable, the whole point, jesus's entire point in using this parable, is that the woman, if you're familiar with the woman goes to an unjust judge and demands justice against her adversary, against her adversary. And Jesus's point in sharing the parable is that it was her to use an old word importunance. It was her persistence, it was her refusal to take no for an answer from the unjust judge who Jesus is paralleling to God, the Father. That is why she went home satisfied.

Speaker 2: 29:09

And so the question for those of us who believe in the scriptures and in Luke 18 is if Jesus told that parable, what would it be like for you to take your demands, your longings, your desires to God in prayer? I'm not against surrender, I'm all for surrender. But surrender implies a 12-round wrestling match with the other person, in this case God. You don't surrender until you've come to the end of your resources through the fight. Nobody surrenders at the beginning, so surrender is a deeply misunderstood term in most Christian circles. In my opinion, it requires a deeply candid wrestling match with God which is personal and where something happens in your heart through your engagement with God by insisting—here's the parable of the persistent widow—insisting on the goodness of your desire for, in her case, justice.

Speaker 1: 30:30

Well, personally, I don't feel fully equipped to be able to do that by myself. Okay, and I imagine many others are feeling the same way. We need some guidance.

Speaker 2: 30:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:46

And so I'm really excited about your upcoming presentation at the Porn-Free man Conference, where you're going to be helping us engage God about our stories. Yeah, can you say more about that?

Speaker 2: 30:59

Sure, I'm going to not only teach about how do you engage with God about your sorrow, about your anger, about your grief, about your longings, but we're going to do an exercise together where I kind of guide you through the process of writing down some sentences that your heart would like to express to your God and then, if you feel so inclined, you can take the risk during, you know, privately, during this time, to express those, to speak those sentences to God. So we have ample resources in the book of Psalms, in the book of Jeremiah, the book of Job, the book of Lamentations of people candidly expressing disappointment to God, expressing anger at God, expressing anger at others to God. My point is there is biblical room and biblical precedent galore for a candid expression of what Tim Keller called pre-reflectively pouring out your feelings. I love that term pre-reflectively. What does he mean by that? He means, before you've thought about it and decided whether it's appropriate to express to a holy God, you just pour it out, you just let it go.

Speaker 2: 32:30

Why? Because you believe that God is aware that it's in you and is wanting your face, your heart, your truthful soul, expression of longing, of anger, of sorrow, of whatever's inside of you that particular day to be expressed to your God, because intimacy requires honesty, and so I think that there is so much, not just like mental health reasons for expressing yourself to God, but biblical precedent, biblical permission in those books that I just enumerated, for a very honest and forthright fighting with God, expressing our emotions to God, and I think God's honored by it, and I think your relationship with God will change in the process of doing that. He welcomes those parts of us. He welcomes those parts. That's a great way to put it. He welcomes those parts of us. Why don't we?

Speaker 1: 33:44

And he can handle it.

Speaker 2: 33:46

And he's not surprised by it. It's not like he's sitting there like, oh, I didn't know, you felt this way, but he wants you to own it.

Speaker 1: 33:56

He wants us to take our big feelings and our messy emotions and our unedited issues to him and our unedited issues to him.

Speaker 2: 34:08

Yeah, yes, I believe that, and I believe that that's what the Psalms model for us. Lamentations, jeremiah, I mean, there's so many places.

Speaker 1: 34:17

Yeah, so I'm really excited to be able to sit with you and all be able to do that together in less than a month here. Yes, it's going to be awesome, and I'm specifically thinking about our sexual stories and what aspects of those we might want to engage with God about.

Speaker 2: 34:40

Yeah, and I think that the starting point needs to be either a place of disappointment or a place of shame, either a place of disappointment or a place of shame. So for so many people can you be honest about where you are sexually disappointed, and there's so many categories for that. But can you write down in your journal two or three sentences of where you've experienced sexual disappointment in the past year? And, if you can, how do you want to engage God about that disappointment? So that would be the category of disappointment. The second category would be the category of shame.

Speaker 2: 35:21

Where do you feel sexual shame and do you believe that God would like to have some conversation with you about your sexual shame? What would it look like just to invite the Spirit of God into the memories of sexual shame? And for many of us that's a very intense experience. It's a very vulnerable experience and an experience where we bring so much sense of condemnation that it can be hard to go there. But again, if there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, if it is dying for you to invite his presence, his spirit, into your places of shame and disappointment.

Speaker 1: 36:19

Amen, that's so beautiful. And if you guys want to hear more about this, you go down to the links in the show notes and you can find Adam's podcast and you can pre-order his upcoming book, make Sense of your Story. And I would love for you to join us on January 10th and 11th at the Porn-Free man conference especially for this session about engaging God about your story, and you can do that at thepornfreemancom. Adam, what is your favorite thing about engaging your story?

Speaker 2: 36:55

Oh, nobody's ever asked me that. You know, I don't want to miscommunicate that I think it's fun. I do think it's fun, but it's not fun without heartache, it's not fun without fear, it's not fun without a sense of trepidation. I mean, so much of engaging my story has been coupled with a sense of like if I go there, I'm not going to come back Like I'm not going to be a functioning dad, husband, employee, like it will pull me under. So I want to be honest that I know from personal experience that engaging your story, reflecting on some of these deeply, deeply disturbing memories that we all have, can be overwhelming at times. But it can also be fun.

Speaker 2: 37:45

And when I say fun, what I mean is, ultimately, there's nothing more fun for me than overcoming evil with good we could use the biblical language there Than overcoming evil with good.

Speaker 2: 37:59

And what do I mean by that? Well, a story that is unengaged is a story that has you bound, a story that you cannot tell publicly and I don't mean to the world, but to two or three trained, trusted people is a story that has you stuck, still in shame. So if you are willing to write and read your, then there's something deeply disrupting of the power of evil in that process, and we could say, at a bare minimum, shame is overcome with the light. By the light I mean telling the story to another person and seeing their reaction. So when we do that, there's something really fun about the relief, about the humor that often comes about, the surprise of I didn't see that, I thought this was all bad, nothing good. And you're pointing something out to me as you hear the story and I am surprised by your reaction to my story. That's a level of community and intimacy that I think is really fun and really freeing. So there's joy, there's joy.

Speaker 1: 39:23

There's joy and on the other side of entering into these stories of shame, disappointment and death, there's resurrection.

Speaker 2: 39:36

There's resurrection, absolutely, but there can be no resurrection without death. That's just axiomatic. And many of us are trying to experience hope, healing, resurrection, goodness, joy, without descending into the depths of our story, and I just don't think you can do that. That's so good.

Speaker 1: 39:58

So let's descend into the depths together, trusting that resurrection is coming. Adam, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 40:09

You're welcome. This was fun for me. You asked great questions.

Speaker 1: 40:11

Thanks and always remember my friend. You are God's beloved son. In you he is well-pleased.