Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey, my name is Drew Boa. I'm the founder of Husband Material, where I help men outgrow porn.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Today's interview with Dr Camden Morganti was fabulous. She's the author of Recovering from Purity Culture, an awesome new resource. In today's episode, you're going to learn what is purity culture historically, what was good and valid and what was harmful that we need to heal from. You're going to learn some of the lies and myths that affect both men and women, especially resulting in fear and shame, and Dr Camden is going to lead us in a wonderfully healing exercise at the end, which will help you shed shame and embrace confidence as you begin to believe and feel that your sexuality is good. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to Husband Material. Today, I am so excited to be talking with Dr Camden Morganti, author of Recovering from Purity Culture. She is a licensed clinical psychologist, writer, speaker and coach and, by the way, I got to read this book. It was amazing. Welcome, dr Camden.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Thank you, drew, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 2:02

You're welcome. We talk actually quite a bit about purity culture at Husband Material and I would love to hear why are you so passionate about this topic?

Speaker 2: 2:12

I'm passionate because of my own personal experience, growing up in purity culture and seeing how it harmed me, especially when it came to my faith and my faith journey. And then, seeing as a psychologist, I began to see how it was harming my clients in varied ways. From how it harmed me, it was harming them in their marriage. It was harming them in their sexuality. It was also harming them in their self-concept, the way that they felt about themselves and their bodies. So I exclusively work with women and married couples and, yeah, just seeing the effects in their lives, and I really wanted to provide a different perspective than some of the other books and resources on purity culture, a specific perspective for people who wanted to hold on to their faith and still heal from purity culture, who didn't want to walk away from their faith in Jesus, their relationship with Him and even like their values about sex being sacred and spiritual and being for marriage, but they wanted to find that healing from sexual shame. So, yes, I hope the book is doing that is helping people on that journey.

Speaker 1: 3:17

As we let go of what was harmful and yet hold on to our faith. I find it's really helpful to know what is purity culture, so can you give us your definition?

Speaker 2: 3:31

Yeah, I agree with you. It's helpful to know that, because it's essential to be able to separate what is biblical and true and then what was cultural and what was myth is what I call the myths. And so I define purity culture as a largely sociocultural evangelical movement that peaked in the 1990s to 2000s, that attempted to persuade young people to avoid sex until marriage, using shame and fear as tools of control and resulting in shame and fear. So that's why I distinguish it between a belief or a value in waiting until marriage. That's one that's been preached through many religions across many generations. It's not unique to the 1990s.

Speaker 2: 4:13

The cultural expressions of purity culture seem more unique to the last few decades. The rings, the books, the rallies, the pledges, like those abstinence-only education in public schools those kinds of things were more unique to when I, as a millennial, was growing up and was in school and receiving what little sex education I got. But yeah, but really what distinguishes it for me is the use of fear and shame, because it's one thing to hold a religious belief in abstinence or to hold that as a value for yourself, and another thing for it to be coerced out of shame and fear, and I really want to empower people, for it to be a choice and for it to be something that they've really thought through and come up with their why, their reason for it, rather than something they're doing out of fear.

Speaker 1: 5:00

So signing a promise when I'm five years old that I'm never going to have sex until marriage is so heartbreaking. I grew up in the 90s. I was a millennial too, but I remember my only sex education was one of my parents buying a book for me and leaving it in my room, and that book was Every Young Man's Battle.

Speaker 2: 5:29

Yeah, that can be a really destructive book and intentionally can be a really destructive book and unintentionally, I think you know I say a lot of the creators, authors of purity culture, I think, had good intentions. They wanted us to avoid the dangers of early sexual activity and you know, as a parent now myself, of course like we want that for our children. We want them to wait until they're definitely until they're mature enough to make these complex decisions. And I think the authors of purity culture also wanted to convey the sacredness of sex and really preach that it belonged in marriage. But it had so many unanticipated consequences, and one of those being that our sexuality never felt like our own and something that we had agency over and that we could steward in a way that's consistent with our faith and values, but something that was really taken from us and controlled.

Speaker 1: 6:19

Which makes a lot of sense, as you explained, based on what happened in the 70s and the 80s.

Speaker 2: 6:25

Yeah, I say it was. Purity culture was a reaction to larger socio-political events that were going on, like the sexual revolution, the feminist revolution. There was a rise in teen pregnancy in the 80s, so of course that's going to make everyone you know get shocked and outraged and like reactive of what can we do to stop this? And it seemed like abstinence-only education in the public schools was one way that they tried to push back against that. But really also that purity culture in the evangelical church was one way to try to kind of reassert power and control over young people and particularly women, because women were gaining more power and more equality and so it was one way to kind of reassert that power and control.

Speaker 1: 7:10

Yeah, and it instilled in so many of us this toxic internal belief system that sex is bad, bad, bad unless or until you get married, and then it's the greatest thing in the world. You go into five different myths and false promises that purity culture teaches. How do these ideas impact women?

Speaker 2: 7:39

I think that everyone who writes and talks about purity culture will acknowledge that women were most affected by purity culture, probably more insidiously and longer lasting effects. But it certainly affects men too, and I know that's what we wanna talk about. But to also understand how it affects men, you have to understand how it affects women and vice versa, like when we're in relationship with each other and in a marriage. I'm a therapist so I do sex therapy for Christian couples and I always say, like, when there's a sexual problem, it's not a me or you problem, it's an us problem. And so it will be helpful for men to also understand how their wives have been affected so that they can then understand the effects on them and us. For the myths, we can kind of walk through those and then talk about how they affect men and women.

Speaker 2: 8:24

The first one is the spiritual barometer myth, that this idea that we're better Christians if we are virgins before marriage, you know, and that a large part of our virtue, especially for women, is tied to your virginity or purity. And you see that, like I make a distinction or a connection to Bridgerton. You know the show Bridgerton of like, even in that Regency era in England, like for women, virginity was prized and so important to the possibility of even finding a spouse. But for men there's also what's been called sexual exceptionalism, meaning that sexual sins are seen as the unforgivable sin. They're seen as exceptional, and I think you see that for men, as in like, their spiritual maturity is just equated to how many times have you masturbated this week or have you looked at porn this week? Like it's very narrow.

Speaker 2: 9:16

This idea of discipleship is very narrow, and just how you act out or handle your sexuality, and that's a very immature and narrow definition of one's spirituality. That fosters a lot of shame for people who do struggle in those areas. And then, I think, pride and judgmentalism for people who don't seem to struggle as much outwardly, and I know that. You know I share that. That affected me because I did feel like I did things you know quote the right way and followed the rules, and so there was a lot of pride and judgmentalism of others who didn't. And also, then, shame of like you know, why am I still single? Why have I not found the one and these other people have?

Speaker 1: 9:57

So it turned into a really ugly and sinful pride. Yeah, I mean, we see that pride and shame in so many of these so-called accountability groups.

Speaker 3: 10:04

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 10:05

I also see this piece of like feeling entitled to sex, sometimes with men who have achieved sobriety, sex sometimes with men who have achieved sobriety and they're thinking well, now I should be able to have what I want in the bedroom because I've been free for this long, and it's still very self-centered and very damaging.

Speaker 2: 10:27

I think I see that entitlement in the next two myths the fairytale myth, which is this idea that if I'm pure and follow the rules, god's going to give me a fairytale marriage. And the flipped switch myth, which is, once I'm married, I'll flip a switch and sex goes from off limits and sinful to now amazing and holy. And I found that women are often promised the fairy tale myth a lot more like it's really built up as you're going to find your prince and this, you know this the one that God has for you, and men were maybe not told that as much as they were the promise of great sex. If you wait, as long as you wait, it's going to be amazing and all of your sexual wishes and desires will be fulfilled in marriage by your wife. Yeah, and that that really is so damaging to the marriage, to both spouses, um, really setting them up for inequality from day one and a very selfish and self-serving view of sex instead of self-sharing and self-control, which is a fruit of the spirit for all of us, not just for women.

Speaker 1: 11:27

Can you say more about self-sharing? Sure?

Speaker 2: 11:30

Yeah, so that's another thing I really emphasize in my sex therapy practice is, instead of sex is give and take. You know, we use this language a lot, a lot like I'm going to give him a blow job or I'm going to take pleasure, or take from her yourself or taking from the other one. You're choosing to share your body, share this experience, share pleasure, share time with each other, because that sounds more mutual to me the idea of sharing, and this being a mutual sharing that we're both doing, rather than this transaction of give and take.

Speaker 1: 12:10

Wow, I love that. For many men it's helpful to distinguish between that time or like that.

Speaker 2: 12:20

you know we have to keep score or something like that, but that each partner's experience and desires and comfort and pleasure, like both of their experiences matter and one really doesn't supersede the other and cannot be demanded of the other. So you know, I think that goes along with this idea that women are the gatekeepers of sexuality before marriage, responsible for putting on the brakes and setting boundaries and kind of making sure we're not going too far, and then, after marriage, being sexually available to meet their husband's sexual needs. And I argue that sex is not a need. And so this is something for your listeners to maybe kind of mull over. When we say need, by that I mean physiologically, that you cannot survive without it, like we cannot survive without water or food or sleep or some sort of shelter or attachment and belonging. That is a hardwired need that we have as humans to belong, to attach, to have connection with other humans. But what's not a physiological need is intercourse. We can live without that. So I think a lot of times my female clients have been told that sex is a need for their husband and so they need. They're the only ones that can meet it. So they have to give sex. And my male clients have bought into that too. Like you know, I need it. She's the only one that can. You know, biblically I can get that need met from, but it's really not a need. The connection is, and that doesn't mean sex isn't important, so I'm not downplaying its importance or its value in marriage.

Speaker 2: 14:10

But I want to help my couples expand this definition of intimacy and their idea and concept of intimacy. I define it as anything that makes you feel close and connected to your spouse, and one of the ways that I have found men affected by purity culture, and probably our broader culture too, is this very narrow definition of intimacy as equaling sexual intercourse. I have yet to work with a couple or a male whose love language is not physical touch. You know they all say that and that's fine, like there's nothing wrong with that as a love language and that's, that's wonderful, and affection definitely is nice to have in a loving relationship. But when that physical touch is equated with sex and that's my love language, so that's how I feel loved and so that's what you need to give to me in order for me to feel loved.

Speaker 2: 14:59

It's a very immature definition of intimacy and understanding of love If the only way you know how to feel loved or feel close and connected to your spouse is through intercourse. And that sets us up for the obligation sex message that Sheila Gregoire talks about and I cite her in my book the idea that sex is an obligation for women, which then has she's done research to show that that correlates to lower rates of sexual desire for women, because if it's an obligation or a duty, why would you want to do it? You know there's not. There's not as much interest than if it's something that you are choosing to share and that it's for you too and for your pleasure and experience too. So yeah, so those are some ways. The gatekeeper's myth, I think, affects men and women.

Speaker 1: 15:44

We see it with guys who say these women, or even these men are not wearing enough clothes and they're causing me to stumble. We also see it when guys will say how am I supposed to be free from porn? How am I supposed to manage my sexuality when she's withholding from me, or it's been two years since we've had sex.

Speaker 2: 16:12

Yeah, and that's a hard situation. It's really a both and there. For me that it's both partners responsibilities, you know, and there's there's a role that each of them play. It's not a hundred percent on one and 0% on the other, vice versa, Like I don't think it's reasonable or realistic for any spouse, whether male or female, to just declare a strike on sex and I'm not going to have sex ever again, unless there's some physical reason for that, or certainly if there is abuse and coercion and sex has been used as this tool to control in the past an obligation.

Speaker 2: 16:46

Sex has affected them and makes sense that they may need to take a break while they work on healing that. That's often where I come in as a therapist and can help couples work on healing that so they can get back to a place of mutual sharing of intimacy. So, other than those reasons, I don't think it's realistic for any spouse to say like we're just never going to have sex again. It is realistic to say I want to be treated with respect and dignity in order to share myself in that way with you. But it's also example of the man's responsibility to also have sexual self-control and to steward his sexuality that God has given him, regardless of what his wife is doing. And again, I say that with lots of caveats, Like I think you know, it's both people need to are going to have to work on themselves and work on the marriage and have to be willing to get help and to change. But yeah, self-control is a fruit of the spirit for all of us and it's not dependent on what others are doing.

Speaker 1: 17:45

So helpful and challenging and good. The last myth you talk about is the damaged goods myth.

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yeah, I think that is the most damaging overall because it's really the most shaming of the myths, this idea that you are damaged goods if you have premarital sex, if you go too far, if you struggle with porn or masturbation.

Speaker 2: 18:05

And I also believe it's not biblical because when Jesus looks at us, he doesn't see this wilting, damaged, broken rose that is, you know, with petals missing, which is one of the object lessons of purity culture and why my book has roses on the cover, but he sees his child made in his image. And we all are and we're all sinners in need of grace according to the Bible, and that grace and forgiveness and restoration is there, like God is there to restore us and make us whole, no matter what our sexual sins are or non-sexual sins, you know, no matter what they are. Yeah, so I don't want people to ever feel like they are broken and damaged and beyond repair. No matter how many times you've fallen or messed up, it doesn't mean there aren't consequences you know there aren't results to our choices or to our sins, but that God is there to forgive us and to work through those consequences with us.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Amen. Throughout the book you give exercises for healing and processing. How do we heal from the shame of purity culture?

Speaker 2: 19:14

I think that's a complex process that starts with recognizing shame. Guilt is I did something wrong or bad. Shame is I am bad or flawed or broken. And guilt can be a healthy emotion when it motivates us to action and to repair. So when we recognize that our choices are not aligned with our values and beliefs, guilt is a healthy and justified response to that. So for people who have used pornography and recognize like that is not consistent with my beliefs, like that goes against my faith or my values, or maybe they've treated their spouse in a way where they have used sex as a tool of control, coercion or manipulation and that can be men or women and they recognize like that's not how I want it to be, that's not what my values say about sex, then there's going to be some healthy guilt that can then lead us to repair, to repentance, to making amends and to change, you know, to really taking a hard look at ourselves and evaluating our actions and what changes we want to make so that we can live a life of integrity and alignment with our beliefs. So guilt can be healthy.

Speaker 2: 20:18

Shame is not healthy and adaptive because when the focus is on your total identity, I am bad, I am broken, I am flawed, I am beyond repair. Rather than just a behavior, it just puts us in this pit of shame and despair, and shame makes us want to isolate and withdraw from others too. So I think with that, what I've seen with men who do struggle with pornography or masturbation and want to stop that, it's a very shameful and secretive kind of behavior that they don't want anyone to know about, that they don't want to confess to their wife or to their friends or, you know, spiritual leaders or mentors, because there's so much shame about it. But that shame, that is what drives them back to it. You know that very shame is what will drive you back to the cycle. So the antidote to that is actually to expose what you feel ashamed of and to receive empathy and connection as the antidote to shame. So that's a tricky process because not everybody is safe to share with, not everybody is going to offer empathy and connection.

Speaker 2: 21:21

So the example you were giving of like an accountability group where there can be a lot of self-righteousness, I imagine if someone did share in the group what they were struggling with or confess a sin, and someone's like well, I haven't struggled with that anymore, look what I did you know that's going to actually add to the shame rather than heal it. So you do have to be selective about finding safe community and safe people to share that with. And again doesn't mean it won't come with some consequences, like if you were to confess it to your spouse or something like that. There's going to be a reaction, understandably. But also that you need that sense of empathy and you are not a bad person. You are not broken beyond repair. Your behavior is unacceptable, but you are accepted and loved and affirmed by God. So that's the difference when it comes to healing shame is to start with noticing the difference and being able to identify it and then reaching out for that connection with others, with God and with yourself.

Speaker 1: 22:22

Amen, and we often pursue that connection also with the little boy within us.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Yeah, like some inner child work. Yeah, what, what does? What does that look like for the people you've talked to or seen?

Speaker 1: 22:39

And we learn more about the boy who was first exploited by porn, and oftentimes, when we heal the boy, we experience a lot more freedom in adulthood.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Yeah, that's wonderful. I imagine that is a very vulnerable and painful process, though.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Yeah, it is, and it often takes us into internal experiential exercises. So I really appreciated how you included a number of exercises in the book. I was wondering if you might be able to lead us in an exercise.

Speaker 2: 23:16

Oh, okay, let me do a mindfulness kind of embodiment one and combine that with some positive affirmations too.

Speaker 1: 23:24

Love it.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Yeah, because I think men need to know that their sexuality is good and a gift from God and not something you know, that this battle you know like this, something that is like fundamentally flawed and evil. So let's do that.

Speaker 1: 23:41

That sounds great. So if you're listening to this, you may want to find a comfortable place to sit. Maybe take it off to X speed. Let's breathe and go through this exercise. Dr Camden is about to leave.

Speaker 2: 24:02

So I'm going to lead you in a mindfulness exercise with some positive affirmations. So settle into wherever you're sitting right now a chair, your couch. You can close your eyes or look down with a soft gaze if you're comfortable, and just start to take some deep breaths.

Speaker 3: 24:27

Just noticing the position of your body on the chair, your feet on the floor, your hands resting in your lap. Begin to observe and just notice your thoughts, body sensations and emotions. Don't push them away and don't cling to them, Just let them come and go.

Speaker 2: 25:07

When a feeling or thought arises, just acknowledge it non-judgmentally.

Speaker 3: 25:18

And as you sit there, breathing deeply, repeat some of these positive affirmations to yourself.

Speaker 2: 25:32

Positive affirmations are validating statements that you can reflect on in moments when you need confidence and they can be made into a spiritual practice of breath prayers as you inhale on the first half of the phrase and inhale on the first half of the phrase and exhale on the second half of the phrase, making this a conversation with God.

Speaker 3: 25:56

So inhale my body is good. Exhale Inhale body is good. Exhale Inhale my body and I are one and exhale. Inhale I am known and loved and exhale. Inhale. Inhale I acknowledge my sexual desires and exhale. Inhale I can enjoy sensuality without shame and exhale. Inhale I honor my sexuality and exhale. Inhale God you created me. And exhale as a sexual being. Inhale I am made. Exhale in God's image. Inhale my sexuality. Exhale is a gift from God, is a gift from God.

Speaker 2: 27:48

So write down which ones of those resonate with you and meditate on them in the future, when you are feeling shame and you need to remind yourself that your sexuality is good and a gift from God and that you, together with God, can choose how to steward it in a way that honors him and honors yourself.

Speaker 1: 28:09

Thank you, Dr Camden.

Speaker 3: 28:11

Yeah, you're welcome.

Speaker 1: 28:13

That was very regulating.

Speaker 2: 28:15

Good, well, that was nice to do. I haven't gotten to do one of those on a podcast.

Speaker 1: 28:20

For you personally what is your favorite thing about recovering from purity culture?

Speaker 2: 28:25

Well, of course, it's connecting with other what I call purity culture survivors. It's connecting with other people and knowing that we're not alone and knowing that we're not the only one, and that has just been the biggest antidote to shame. Like I said, just being able to meet, talk, speak with, interact with, write to you, know all of all of that with other people who experienced this, and some in many, many and worse ways than I did. It's so validating and healing. Yeah, I think it is for them as it is for me, and just knowing that I can, the journey that I've been on personally and professionally, that God can use that to help others on their journey of recovery, is just yeah, it's really validating.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Thank you so much for speaking with us. And, gentlemen, if you want to get a copy of Recovering from Purity Culture by Dr Camden Morganti, Go down to the show notes and you'll see a link to buy the book. You can also learn more at drcamdencom. Always remember you are God's beloved son. In you he is well-pleased.