Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today, I am so thrilled to be welcoming Barbara Steffens and Lachelle Burkett, the awesome co-facilitators of the training that I just went through with six other members of our Husband Material team called Betrayal Trauma Religious Leader Training BTRL and it was fantastic. It was a lot of fun. B-t-r-l. And it was fantastic. It was a lot of fun. For me, it was actually life-changing to learn more about what partners go through and how we can all play a role in helping and supporting their healing. It is fantastic, so I would highly recommend that, and I feel like they're the best teachers in the world. So thank you for being on our show.

Speaker 2: 1:37

So I wish we could high five, but I would have to jump really high to do that.

Speaker 1: 1:44

Yes, yes, we discovered the height difference between us at the sexual integrity leadership summit. Yes, we did so. Barb Steffens is the founding president of the Association of Partners of Sex Addicts, trauma Specialists, even though she is now retired or semi-retired. Hope Redefined, which is an organization helping women who have been intimately sexually betrayed, and I am really, really excited to connect more of you guys with her resources, because they are phenomenal. And Lachelle is on the board of APSATS as well. Yes, and I think you lead the committee for training, right, I do, yes, and you're a disclosure guide.

Speaker 3: 2:40

I am DG. I am a DG, that's right, that's right. I never had any sororities or anything in college, so I've just really taken that seriously as an adult.

Speaker 2: 2:53

All the initials Awesome.

Speaker 1: 2:57

So, even though we can have fun, our topic really is very serious. We're talking about what happens when a wife discovers her husband's secret relationship with porn. I mean, at some level we all know that it's harmful, that it's not right, but from a more trauma-informed perspective, how do you see that moment or that experience?

Speaker 2: 3:30

The experience is one of what we've come to understand. A traumatic event. Experience is one of what we've come to understand. A traumatic event, you know, it's a point in time where everything changes for a partner. So perhaps they had some inkling something was going on, but they weren't sure what it was. And maybe they've even asked questions. You know, are you viewing porn? Are you having an affair? They have something in their gut saying something's not right.

Speaker 2: 3:56

But then, however, discovery happens, that happens, and now all of a sudden there's this brand new reality that they're trying to bring into focus for themselves. So they call it D-Day, discovery Day. So we have an initial for it D-Day. So you think of it as the day everything changed, just like D-Day in World War II. It's the day that things changed, and so it can be highly traumatic, depending upon how it's discovered and if the partner is the one that discovered it. I did research around all of this and in my study it was the partner most of the time who did the discovery. And so it's it kind of freeze or they might collapse or they go. Oh well, this makes sense.

Speaker 2: 4:48

And then over time they start to experience some pain around that, but they do really start to divide their life between before D-Day and after D-Day, because it changes everything. So they can have a shock kind of response or they kind of go numb. Yeah, they can feel like they go out of their bodies sometimes because they're just trying to figure out what did I just see? Usually it's something that they see, just trying to figure out what did I just see. Usually it's something that they see, perhaps it's something they hear, but what was that? And that can't be true. And then coming to grips with the fact that it is.

Speaker 2: 5:24

And then over time they may find out a little bit more, and a little bit more either, by asking a lot of really good questions, because they need to know what is real. Because they need to know what is real. What is reality? Because now, all of a sudden, reality is crashed in and it doesn't make sense with what they were hoping their reality was or what they believed their reality was. So it's a point in time, but it's also a process. But for the partner it's usually crushing, traumatic. It's usually crushing traumatic. In my study, 70% of the women met the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder in response to discovery. So it's a big, major life-changing event. I could go on and on, but it's, you know. Think of a landmine. You're stepping on a landmine and it changes everything.

Speaker 3: 6:16

I couldn't add much more to that answer. I think Barb covered the various things that we see in partners and their experiences over and over again, and so maybe what I would just add on to it is that then, oftentimes what you see after that, after the initial D-Day, is a varying amount of responses as well. Some women move into denial because the reality of what's in front of them is too large for them to navigate at that moment, and that may be because they're a mom with young kids and they're homeschooling and there's just too much in front of her. Had a partner who her mother was dying of cancer simultaneously when discovery happened and it was just kind of like I don't have capacity for this, I'm just going to have to put it on a shelf Right, and she, that's what she needed to do to survive.

Speaker 3: 7:11

You have others who go into I call them my researchers, right, they're going to go find the answer, the solution, to fully understand what's happening in the situation, and oftentimes then they start to use that research for various things. Maybe it's to educate their spouse on what's going on. Sometimes it becomes aggressive where she's like if you don't understand all of this, then we're never going to make any difference and it's never going to go away and it becomes a place of her trying to change her environment, her situation, in the way that she knows. And then you oftentimes can even find women who just feel like they're drowning and they can move into states of feeling depressed and hopeless and lonely and so unsure of what the future holds for them. And I'm sure that I didn't even touch on every single next experience for women, but those are typically the things that people will start to see when they're doing life around a woman who's been betrayed.

Speaker 2: 8:15

Most partners will have this period of time of being what we call hypervigilant. So they want to know now what they don't know, and so they're going to continue to look and to find information, and sometimes they get shamed for doing that. So I think it's really important for me to say when partners are doing that they're think it's really important for me to say when partners are doing that they're trying to find out what is reality and am I safe or not. So there's safety seeking and they're trying to figure out what in the world just happened or is happening or could be happening. So the hypervigilance is a very normal response after discovery.

Speaker 1: 8:55

Sometimes men will say things like she's holding this over my head, she'll never let it go, she won't forgive me, she's just holding on to her hurt.

Speaker 2: 9:05

No, she wants nothing more than to have that hurt gone. She wished she had never uncovered this or was told this information. If she could wish it away, she would, but it's in her brain. You know, her brain is on fire. I feel like I am totally at risk physically, emotionally, sexually, in every way possible. So the hypervigilance is about me protecting me. It's not about holding something over someone else's head. It's about am I safe or not? Am I going to survive this? Are we going to survive this?

Speaker 1: 9:40

Right. One of my favorite moments of the BTRL training is when you compared it to getting hit by a truck. What kind of a response would we expect from someone who gets hit by a truck? It's not about how they respond, it's about caring for them. What do they need, like can we get them safe? And that's what matters most. I mean, you wouldn't ask someone who just got hit by a truck to care for the truck driver or to try to understand why they got hit by a truck in that moment. That would just be totally insensitive. And yet that's what we do often with partners who are in this situation.

Speaker 2: 10:22

Those are the messages that they can receive. Sometimes people will wonder what was going on with you that you didn't know this was happening. So again, we're always responsible for bad things that happen to us. Rather than I got hit by a truck, I was minding my own business.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Yeah, another trauma reaction that I've heard you talk about is that of caretaking.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Well, there's a lot of things that, especially for women I'm just going to speak for women who are betrayed or just women in general we're kind of socialized to pay attention to. How are the people around me doing? You know just my own background. I was the oldest only girl and had three little brothers, so I was always trying to hurt these guys. So it was natural for me I was a stand in for my mom. But for a lot of women we're put in that kind of role where our job is to make sure everyone else is okay. So for me that's the one that I shared when we went through our training it's that if I get triggered sometimes, rather than paying attention to me which is important because I'm valuable I will pay attention to what do other people.

Speaker 1: 11:36

So another really common response Sometimes I hear guys say things like well, my wife is so gracious and supportive, she's always been so wonderful. Whenever I open up to her about a relapse or a secret struggle, open up to her about a relapse or a secret struggle, she is so caring and she accepts me. And they say this, I think trying to speak well and trying to be affirming, yet they don't realize that actually could be the caretaking trauma reaction.

Speaker 2: 12:12

And underneath that affirmation there's also this hidden message sometimes that and if she didn't respond that way, that would be bad then she wouldn't love me if there were consequences or she was mad at me, angry all the time, if she wasn't talking to me. Whatever it was, that would be bad.

Speaker 1: 12:33

That would be ungodly right, that would not be good.

Speaker 2: 12:36

Oh my gosh, what am I supposed to behave that way? So if we then are the caretaker part, then we are playing the role of how we believe we're supposed to be. But it may not be. Usually is not the healthiest way to show up. Healthiest way to show up is way to show up is. This is how I feel about it. This is not okay. This has destroyed me. This has injured me beyond what I ever anticipated. That's reality.

Speaker 1: 13:04

If I'm caretaking all the time, I'm not in reality so, gentlemen, please, yeah, get this message that I've learned to view those responses of anger, or what looks like hostility, as an invitation to intimacy.

Speaker 2: 13:24

It's a different kind of vulnerability, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 13:27

Yeah, If she's just super nice like Christian woman all the time, that might actually be like hiding.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Can be a shield between the two of you.

Speaker 3: 13:41

One of the things that I have witnessed is women who have traditionally, for maybe years or even decades have shown up in this caretaker role, or even decades have shown up in this caretaker role, and eventually they are.

Speaker 3: 13:59

They, they find community with other betrayed partners and they start to recognize oh wow, I have been very not really passive, but I haven't used my voice in my in this journey and so she finds community and she starts figuring out what's her reality and she starts sharing this. And oftentimes you will hear her come back and say my husband is so mad that I'm in community because it's quote changing me right it's making me angry and bitter, and that's not completely accurate. It's just that she's suddenly been given permission to be honest and authentic. But oftentimes what you hear is women choosing to go in the direction of caretaker for one reason or another, whether it's their belief system, it's just part of their upbringing, it's what they think is the right way to do this, and so they're attempting to do it the right way, also because they don't want him to relapse. So if.

Speaker 3: 15:06

I don't get upset and I'm not mad and I'm not yelling at him, then he can't. There shouldn't be a reason why he's stressed, right, Because oftentimes that is the symptom or the trigger. Sorry that we hear from men is what leads you to choose to do what you're doing stress. So I know that for myself.

Speaker 3: 15:24

Early in early, early days I made like this ridiculous personal vow and I was like he'll never experience stress again. So I took over the finances, I took over all the housekeeping we didn't have children at that point in times, but I would have most definitely taken care of all the kids stuff. You know, I managed all of our social gatherings, et cetera, et cetera. I got a lot of accolades for that because he didn't have to do anything. And so here I was thinking I was creating an environment that was good. And it felt good for me too, right, Because now I okay, I'll just muster it up, I can control myself and push myself through all this heavy. But I wasn't being authentic to myself as to where I was with my stuff. I just put it on a shelf and was like, well, maybe if I create this environment that's really safe for him, then he won't do the bad things and then I won't hurt, Right.

Speaker 3: 16:17

But when you see women start to get into some form of community with others and they start to hear different stories and they realize that they probably maybe they didn't react as authentic as they thought they did, they really did go into a place of caretaking, like Barb has said, and they've been trying to create an environment. And now they're in their late 40s and 50s and they just don't give a rip anymore. They're like forget this right. Maybe it's not that extreme, but I've seen women who are like enough is enough, Because ultimately what she's come to understand when she gets to the late 40s and 50s is he's still relapsed, he was still doing different things, what she did did not make it go away, and that is so disheartening for her. And then they start to transition or move into a place of ambivalence or aggressive. They're angry, they're disconnected from him. There's lots of things that women will start to do in order to still stay in the relationship, but attempt to have some sense of control for themselves and create some level of safety for themselves.

Speaker 2: 17:27

When I started running groups for partners, I was all excited and the women would come and be all excited. And then they'd come back like two or three weeks later and say, well, I was all excited, and the women would come and be all excited. And then they'd come back like two or three weeks later and say, well, I don't think I can come to group anymore. And I would ask about what's that about? And they would say, well, my husband says that all I do is come home angry and the group is making me angry, and so he doesn't want me to be in this group anymore, because now I'm angry and they have to drop out.

Speaker 2: 17:55

So or they believe they have to drop out. So, guys who might be listening to this, if your partner, your loved one, is in a group and she comes home and she's a little more ticked than she usually is, that's normal, that's okay, that's part of the process, but she needs that safe space.

Speaker 3: 18:17

We're not going to get very many fans. Barb.

Speaker 2: 18:19

I know these guys are like it's just painful, it's okay, it's a reality. That is hard and it's painful, that's the reality.

Speaker 3: 18:31

And if we try to escape, escape reality, neither one of us is going to heal so one of the examples I use a lot is that, um, our house literally burnt to the ground, like let's use that as an example that we have just experienced a house fire that has completely destroyed us. Throughout the process of the house burning down, the paramedics showed up and they took my husband and they took him to the hospital and he got medical attention and they gave him oxygen because his lungs were filled with smoke and so on and so forth, but they left me at the scene of the fire and maybe somebody handed me a room and dustpan, right. So then later, I'm not well, I'm really, I'm sick, I'm not doing well. I did not get any medical attention following this event. But he got very different attention following the event, right. And so now we have an expectation, much like we use with the accident, the truck situation. We have an expectation, much like we use with the accident, the truck situation. We have an expectation that these two individuals who were at the same event should respond the exact same way or at least similar. Maybe not exactly the same, but we'll say similar, right?

Speaker 3: 19:48

And so this is where you see it play out in different relationships, where he says, well, I'm all better now Like why aren't you better? And there's a miss in recognizing that there were no paramedics for me. No one gave me oxygen, no one helped bandage up the burns, no one even talked to me about what happened, like I was just handed a broom and dustpan and expected to clean up something, but in reality I was walking around in shock and trying to figure out where our family photos are and make sense of everything that was left. The intent behind that is to expand empathy for the partner that she wouldn't be expected to show up exactly as he is expecting her to, or even that others might expect her to do.

Speaker 3: 20:37

I have partners a lot that will talk about the grief that comes from losing family relationships because people just can't handle it anymore. They can't listen to her talk about this situation one more time. Why isn't she over it by now? Even I've had women who who experienced that with their children, like their kids were at the event as well, and the kids are over it. Like mom, why are you still hanging onto this? And it's like cause, even though everyone was there. It's a very different experience.

Speaker 2: 21:06

Part of the problem, too, is that let's use your example he's taken away and he's getting oxygen and getting good care and it has ended for him and now he is healing. But there's really no way for the other person, for the partner, to know that it's all over and he is healing, because we didn't know before. And so how in the world am I supposed to now say, oh well, that part is over. There's no evidence that that part is over, other than someone is telling me. So it's going to take a long time of me observing, hearing, good information, connection, seeing someone take their recovery process seriously, and you start to see not only behavior changes but relational changes. That takes time, but in that period of time people are saying why aren't you getting over this? Why don't you trust him? Why don't you believe him when there's not enough evidence?

Speaker 1: 22:08

she believed before, that is smashed, that is gone, and so it's going to take a good amount of time before she can say, oh, he's with me on this journey, because I can't trust that he's with me for a long time sometimes men in our community will hear teachings about this and get the sense that okay, for as long as it takes, no matter what, no matter how she's reacting or if she's still stuck in her hurt, that I'm supposed to just stand here and take it A feeling of, maybe, powerlessness. So some are asking, like, at what point do I say no, it's not okay for me to be treated by my wife a certain way.

Speaker 2: 23:07

There's a lot of things there, Drew.

Speaker 1: 23:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:10

There is, because how long can he expect to stand and to see his wife in anger as long as it takes? But also, what is he doing to help her start to see that he wants to be a person of integrity, that he wants to be honest, and that that takes experience over time? And if the most of the experience that a partner gets when she's upset is you're too much for me, that doesn't communicate. I am really working hard and I'm trying to rebuild and I'm trying to show you. What else can I do to show you trust? So I would want to know if that's happening, is there a softness there or is it you're just too big, too much?

Speaker 1: 24:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Because if she's angry, if she shows anger, that's a good thing. A lot of times it just gets all swallowed up and then that turns into illness if she's afraid to be angry. But also both people have to have good, strong boundaries for themselves around. What am I going to be around and what do I need to step away from. So if the anger is going on and on and it's destructive and if it feels really threatening, of course you need to and you need to say if it gets too hot, if I am afraid I am going to leave, I need to be able to say that as well, having good, sound boundaries, but not say oh, I'm sorry, your anger is too much, but what can I do to help you express this in ways that I really want to hear it, but right now it's hard to hear because I'm feeling threatened.

Speaker 1: 24:54

So one example of a boundary would be throwing a physical object.

Speaker 2: 25:01

Yeah, and if it's yelling and it's really loud and it feels like it's going on and on, you have to allow for some period of time for anger. And anger is someone saying this should not have happened. And if the anger continues, sometimes that's because no one is saying you're right, this should never. So that hasn't been affirmed yet.

Speaker 2: 25:27

So, she keeps saying it over and over and over again until someone says you're right, this should never have happened. What can I do? How can I help? But yes, boundaries are always around physical harm, physical threats, and you know this happens with partners that get triggered in the middle of the night and they just want to ask question after question after question because their brain is tormentedmented and so being able to have a time boundary on. After this period of time, we will agree, and we both agree we're not going to have these conversations. And if you both agree and then she's violating that boundary, then then you separate a little bit so that you can walk away from it. But it's not just the first time she's angry. It's like oh, you're too big, I'm going to shut you down.

Speaker 1: 26:17

This is so helpful because oftentimes this piece of having boundaries is left out of conversations about developing empathy.

Speaker 3: 26:26

We oftentimes in our community- we talk about anger is not a sin. We oftentimes in our community we talk about anger is not a sin. But what I do in my anger can definitely be sinful. Right, I can definitely. That can definitely cross a line, and I feel like that gives us a level of permission, like it's not a bad thing for me to be angry. It's what I do with it that matters.

Speaker 3: 26:48

And I think what Barb just spoke to is super important is just the acknowledgement, because, you know, for women in our culture, anger is a big no-no, right. If I lose my stuff in the middle of the grocery store, I will most definitely go viral, right, because someone's going to capture that and be like this is so out of our norm. But we can have, you know, men generally in our culture that they're loud and aggressive and it's their personality and everyone is like, oh, that's just who he is. Sometimes when her large, big emotions come out and they may be of anger. There's also a place for you to get really curious about what's going on with you. Why is this so bad for me? Right, because oftentimes I think that's what I'm seeing, that you'll hear too is like he's projecting something back that isn't accurate, right, my mother was angry and dysregulated all the time, and now you're becoming my mother, and that isn't always accurate either. I know that this is such an advanced skill of self-awareness, but maybe, as we're talking about it, it helps strengthen that self-awareness for somebody that there's something in there, right?

Speaker 3: 28:12

You know, my husband has been a very loud individual and what I did not realize was that each time he would lose his temper, I would, I would hide, but it wasn't as obvious as what you think. It wasn't like I was in the bottom of my closet, I would just leave and I would like get on my computer, or I would get on my phone, or I'd go sit on the front porch. And I wasn't even consciously aware of the fact that I was retreating. And it 100% was rooted in my childhood home, because when I did come from an abusive home and when my dad got angry that was the instruction was to get out. So my mother would send us out in order for us to stay safe, right, but my brain is doing this. I am not even aware, as a 40 something year old woman, that that's what I'm doing. And so is that my husband's fault? No, my husband still has stuff he needs to own in that situation, for sure.

Speaker 1: 29:15

But there was an opportunity also for me to get curious about myself and go hey, what's going on here? Yeah, oftentimes underneath that anger, there's a very deep sadness, or shame or pain.

Speaker 2: 29:30

If you think about kind of the crushing experience a partner can have when she's betrayed, anger can feel like the only power or shield I have to protect me. So very often it's an attempt to protect keep you away so that you don't hurt me again.

Speaker 1: 29:48

so that you don't hurt me again.

Speaker 2: 29:49

If I'm helping a partner who just is angry all the time appropriate anger, but all the time and it's not lessening, even if their loved one is doing everything that we think that he needs to be doing I'm always going to be asking for how else can you feel empowered to take good care of yourself? Is this your only tool? And if so, let's see what other tools we can help you with, so that you know you can protect yourself, that you don't always have to have the shield of me.

Speaker 1: 30:25

I love that For men who are listening to this and realizing how much their partners are hurting, feeling a desire to respond in a helpful way. How would you answer the question? What does she really want from me?

Speaker 3: 30:46

So I have an acronym that I'll give you, and it is VOWS V-O-W-S. I felt like it sums up a good portion of what she's looking for. The first is vulnerability. Right, there's a vulnerability of I'm scared too. I'm not sure either, I'm tired too, like something that allows that vulnerability to happen in that relationship. But vulnerability take ownership. So VO ownership, take ownership of what has happened. It's important for them to say I can see how my choices have made you so angry. Don't say I know that you're hurting so much because you don't know, and she'll probably yell that back at you. But to be able to say I can imagine that what I have done has hurt you deeply, I can't right, like there's even a part of that. But taking ownership, do your own work, do your own work. So W is for work. Do your own work. Do your work to grow in self-awareness. Do your work in understanding what safety looks like in a relationship.

Speaker 2: 32:06

Do your own work in your groups recovery, et cetera. They don't just hide it over here. I've got a book over here, I'm doing my work. Or I'm over here and I'm going to group, I'm doing my work, but I can't tell you about anything that I'm doing in my work because, of course, that's confidential. No, tell me about your work. What are you learning? What are you doing? Let it be observable, let your spouse know. This is where I'm going to go, have a conversation with a good friend and I'm going to talk about how we're doing and ask them to pray for me. So be vulnerable in your work. Be open about it, not hidden about it. That's what I want to add about work.

Speaker 3: 32:41

And I really feel like that level of work and what she's talking about is interwoven with vulnerability, ownership and safety. Right Doing the work is leading you to that and then being vulnerable with your work. Man, they've got me. I'm doing this exercise and it makes me really mad, or you know, I can't believe I learned this about myself. Different things like that are just like those are like some of the fastest intimacy builders you could possibly imagine is being able to show up that way. And then the S stands for safe and I would say be intentional about being a safe person and you talk about the different kinds of safety physical safety, emotional safety, sexual safety.

Speaker 1: 33:31

But vows V-O-W-S, that's a good one Keep your vows, isn't that good?

Speaker 2: 33:36

Yeah, keep your vows.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Awesome. There is so much more we want to talk about, so there will be a part two of this interview next week, but for now, if you are interested in the BTRL training taught by Barb and Lachelle, you can go down to the show notes to get more information about that and about both of them and their organizations, especially for your wives, your girlfriends, your fiances, who you don't want to leave without support. Come back next week to learn more about betrayal, trauma and and always remember you are God's beloved son and you he is well-pleased.