Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you for watching my interview with Jordan Castile on stereotypes about same-sex attraction. This episode is full of stereotypes that need to be questioned, and that's exactly what Jordan and I will do. If you stick with us, you are going to hear stories and truths that go against some assumptions and stereotypes that people often have about men who experience same-sex attraction. Enjoy the episode. This is part two of our series on stereotypes regarding opposite-sex attraction and same-sex attraction, and I am joined for this episode on stereotypes that opposite-sex attracted men have about same-sex attracted men with Jordan Castile, a certified husband material coach, board-certified Christian counselor, apsats trained recently, which is exciting. Welcome back, jordan.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Yeah, thanks, Drew. I'm glad to be on the show today.

Speaker 1: 1:18

I'm always glad to hang out with you, especially when we laugh. Yes, that's very true, jordan. I was very, very selective when thinking about who I want to talk about, this issue of same-sex attraction and some of the stereotypes that are out there. Why are you a great person to talk about this?

Speaker 2: 1:42

I would say, with some of these stereotypes that we're going to cover. I've experienced them and I've also have found a lot of freedom in them and just my recovery journey where it's like I felt insecurity, you know, in these things and now I feel wholeness and healing in my story and, yeah, I'm excited to speak to these things.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Some of these stereotypes are lies that you have believed in the past. Yeah, and the truth is so freeing and you've experienced so much healing, so much freedom from gay porn. And in this episode, when we're talking about same-sex attraction, I feel like we need to do a couple of disclaimers. First of all, the language of same-sex attraction is not always accepted by everybody and, in fact, it would be more accurate to say same-sex sexualized attachment, s-s-s-a. But we're not going to go there just because this isn't a term that many people identify with. And the same is true for opposite sex attraction being attracted to a member of the opposite sex. We're really talking about opposite sex sexualized attachment. Using these labels can be helpful and at the same time, we realize they can be hurtful. Calling somebody an SSA man might create division, feelings of otherness, oversimplification. No one really likes to be labeled that way. Yet using that label in this episode is just going to help us efficiently identify men with similar experiences and perspectives. So when we talk about SSA men and OSA men, we're not trying to say this is your identity. We're just using these labels as placeholders. This will help us communicate about it more easily. And stereotypes are stereotypes. This will help us communicate about it more easily.

Speaker 1: 3:45

And stereotypes are stereotypes. Men who don't experience same-sex attraction often believe these things, but not all do so. Some men may believe none of these stereotypes or just a few, while others may believe all 10. But each of these stereotypes exists for a reason. Oftentimes they're based on very real personal experiences. Sometimes these beliefs are based on traumatic experiences, and we don't want to invalidate your experiences by saying that some parts of them have become stereotypes. Really, our goal here is to have a dialogue that creates greater understanding, appreciation and nuance, because sexual attraction is complex, it's not easy to talk about, and by dispelling some of these stereotypes, I really feel like we can understand each other better. Jordan, what do you see as the purpose of this episode?

Speaker 2: 4:46

the better. Jordan, what do you see as the purpose of this episode? Something that I really see, with us having this discussion, is to really help a man that experiences same-sex attraction to feel accepted and to feel like they belong. You know, in my own story, one of the lies that I believed was I'm not one of the guys, felt like an outsider, and when I think about these stereotypes and you know I'm connecting with someone that experiences same-sex attraction and they're, you know, being vulnerable and sharing about their struggle with connecting with men in a healthy way, I just think, man, I really want to help them to heal this part so that they can have a sense of belonging and, you know, not let these stereotypes be a barrier but a way that could bring freedom.

Speaker 1: 5:50

And part of my heart in creating this episode is to educate other guys like me with things I've learned along the way about my assumptions about SSA guys that are not always true. It's really helpful when more of us understand these issues better. Okay, we've talked enough about what we're going to teach, now let's get into it. Jordan, are you ready to go into the 10 stereotypes OSA guys believe about SSA guys? Yes, let's do it. Number one is ssa guys are easy to identify.

Speaker 2: 6:28

Uh, there have been times where did I put off some sort of a vibe or, you know, make someone think that I I wasn't very confident in who I am, or anything like that. And and yeah, I just don't think it's going to be that noticeable as you might think it would be.

Speaker 1: 6:51

Yeah, sometimes I will be interacting with someone who seems very effeminate and yet is not attracted to other men at all sexually. Other times there's somebody who's hyperine and seems to be fitting all the stereotypes of a man's man, yet inwardly doesn't necessarily feel that way and may even experience same-sex attraction. I mean, you never know know.

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yeah, I just think it's really hard to know that about a person, even if they are like the man's man or really effeminate or somewhere in between all of that you really don't know the person until you really get to know this part of them.

Speaker 1: 7:41

Yes, men who experience SSA have all kinds of different appearances, body types, personalities, styles of speaking. Husband Material is an interesting place where we have quite a mix of SSA and OSA and I've learned that, unless somebody identifies themselves a certain way, just don't assume. Yes, I've had friends who experienced ssa their whole life and I didn't know for years until they told me, and also had friends whom I thought, well, I wonder, you know, I wonder if this guy experiences that, and then by all appearances it seems like he doesn't, and that is totally valid too.

Speaker 2: 8:29

Yeah, I mean a lot of people that I've, you know, met over the years and befriended, and even in my job, at my church, they meet me. They don't really ever assume that I experience same-sex attraction, and it may be a while before I really share this part of my life with them, and they're a little shocked to find out and I'm like, wow, well, I never thought of you that way.

Speaker 1: 9:02

One of the primary criteria that people use to try to identify is perceived masculinity, so this goes to stereotype number two SSA guys are more feminine and less masculine.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Yeah, I can definitely speak to this a bit. So, yeah, I can definitely speak to this a bit. So, you know, in high school I was a cheerleader and in that, you know, I really didn't want to be feminine in any way, but I was definitely afraid that people would see me that way. You know at the time this was the late 90s that I was a cheerleader and I was the only guy in my high school on the team, and so it was very different. It was new for a lot of people. I didn't wear a skirt, I didn't use pom-poms in the sport. I really didn't see myself as feminine. Maybe people had perceived ideas about my sexual identity because of that, and I have shared in my story before about the bullying I received there, Right.

Speaker 1: 10:17

So there's an episode about same-sex attraction and bullying that you can listen to, where Jordan tells that whole story.

Speaker 2: 10:24

I definitely wanted to be more masculine and wanted to be accepted as a man in a female sport. At least I tried to carry myself in a way that really proved my masculinity.

Speaker 1: 10:40

Some people might think, oh, he's a cheerleader, he must be gay or he must be feminine, but that was not the case for you and people saying horrible things to you that did a lot of damage to your soul and your beliefs about yourself. It led to so much shame, humiliation, especially in your status as a man or your perceived value as a man, I mean. I think, if anything, it was an area of vulnerability. Evil used to harm you.

Speaker 2: 11:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Even though it was part of your beauty and glory that you can do flips and you can like throw people and use your body in some pretty amazing ways gymnastically. That gave you strength and cheerleading yeah. That gave you strength and cheerleading, yeah. So I think we really all need a much broader definition of masculinity than what we see on TV and movies. As you know what is a man's man, embrace your unique masculinity, no matter what it is, and please leave room for everyone to be masculine in the way that they prefer. Even the idea of labeling something as feminine or masculine is so cultural it's constructed in our imaginations. And yet, at the same time, is there a trend of ssa men sometimes exhibiting stereotypically feminine traits. Yeah, that's a thing sometimes, but not all the time.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Right, stereotype number three really gets me a little bit angry the idea that SSA guys experience sexual attraction to all men, as if men who experience attraction to women are attracted to all women. That is not the case. I mean, just think about this Men are generally attracted to women, but does that mean they're attracted to all women? No, if you take that category of all women, we're talking about grandmothers, we're talking about little girls, we're talking about every body type, every culture, every language. There is no way that anyone can be attracted to everyone of a certain gender.

Speaker 1: 13:06

So it just seems so silly to assume that for men, but just because I'm a man, that means that an SSA person is going to be attracted to me. No, everyone's arousal template is so different and even within the category of same-sex attraction or same-sex sexualized attachment, there are very specific things that tend to attract people Physical traits, personality traits, maybe even spiritual traits, and some guys are physically attractive in general. Yet don't assume that means an SSA guy will find that person attractive, and sometimes our sexual attractions are influenced by trauma that causes us to be most magnetically pulled into a certain type of person. Jordan, what has that been?

Speaker 2: 13:59

like for you. Yeah, my trauma, I would say, really did influence my arousal template. As you talk about Drew, in husband material we talk about how our fantasies really it's almost like a backward screening for where it stems from stems from. So you know, when I did my fantasy story the first time, I really pinpointed it back to a lot of the trauma I experienced in high school because of being a cheerleader and a lot of the name-calling and the bullying and it really sent me into a specific type of gay pornography that I just went to over and over and over and I was using that pornography to try to rewrite that trauma that took place. It's just re-abusing me from that time period. And so to say that all men are attracted to all men that experience same-sex attraction it's just wrong.

Speaker 1: 15:18

Yeah, so how offensive for someone to treat you as if you're attracted to all guys, when so much of this is rooted in things that happen to you and also is very narrowly focused, yeah, on the specific type of guys who hurt you.

Speaker 2: 15:43

On the specific type of guys who hurt you. I would say that would be pretty offensive to me to say that I'm attracted to all guys when I'm not, and I'm also very attracted to my wife has experienced.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Attraction to all men is the conclusion that a lot of men believe. They think if I make friends with an SSA guy, he will develop a crush on me. I've experienced that before multiple times. It's not same-sex attraction that causes somebody to sometimes develop a crush. There are more factors involved and oftentimes there are little warning signs that the friendship or the relationship is becoming sexualized. We have to learn to pay attention to that. We have to learn how to protect ourselves and I've got a great episode about that, called how to escape a creepy conversation before sexting.

Speaker 1: 16:52

You might want to go back and listen to that if you want to avoid some of the entanglements that can come with that sexual energy between men. Regardless, sometimes crushes happen. Sometimes you know about them, sometimes you don't. If you make friends with SSA guys, yeah, it might happen sooner or later. It doesn't have to be the end of the friendship, but what you want to watch out for is that sexualized attachment and any potential inappropriate or unsafe dynamics that might be happening in the friendship beyond just a crush. Jordan, what has been your experience with this?

Speaker 2: 17:31

Yeah, so I definitely have had my fair share of crushes in real life and normally just me telling, like my wife or a trusted friend, a recovery person, I have a crush on this guy. That normally dispels it and you know there's been some good follow-up with that from those people in my life. But yeah, it's going to happen that you develop a crush, especially in a a really good friendship. You have fun together, you have really great conversations and you share meaningful things and, you know, get deep into conversation and just sometimes you know, oh, kind of reminds me of my porn I would go to and I would start to develop a little bit of a crush and really just saying it has helped so much to reduce the power that it had and just bringing it out into the open to a safe person.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Ultimately, my advice to anybody SSA or OSA is that as you get into a friendship, if something starts to feel off uncomfortable or there's some sexual energy coming up, notice it, pay attention to it and, as Jordan recommended, process it with a trusted friend or guide and seek wisdom. Is it wise to continue going this deep with a certain friend, or is it wise to take a step back and maybe have a more casual friendship, or to cut off the friendship if it's become really toxic? These are difficult decisions. In the end, we want you to know that not all SSA guys are attracted to all guys and not all of your SSA friends are going to be attracted to you. On the flip side, many SSA guys also experience sexual attraction to women or to certain women, and that leads right into stereotype number five. Ssa guys don't experience sexual attraction to women, which, again, is sometimes true, but let's say more about when it's not true.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Yeah. So I really love this part because when I was in college and the uh, the first three years, I was really, really addicted to pornography and because I was looking at gay pornography, it was like my attraction to the opposite sex just went down big time and my attraction to the same sex just escalated. And when I, you know, really got plugged into the church I now work for and was able to share about my struggle and really began recovery work, the less and less I looked at pornography, I still had attraction to the opposite sex. It never left, but it began to to to resurface, I would say. And so by the time my wife came along and and I met her, I was head over heels very attracted to her, found her to be very beautiful and just, yeah, when we started dating, I was really, really excited and it was really awesome.

Speaker 1: 21:19

So, jordan, what would you want other men who experienced same-sex attraction to take away from your experience with being really drawn to your wife?

Speaker 2: 21:33

It's very possible to experience attraction to the opposite sex. There can be hope and healing to move toward that. I know at times it can feel like that doesn't exist, and that's okay. If you're in that space, I would encourage you to fight for your healing and recovery.

Speaker 1: 22:01

Yes, and while you're doing that, probably the worst, most violent thing you can do to yourself is try to force some kind of change in your sexuality. That just leads to even more compulsive behavior and it just intensifies the sexual thoughts and feelings that you have. If you try to get rid of them, they will resurge even more so at Husband Material. We believe it's unethical and unhelpful to try to destroy certain attractions or create new ones. Create new ones, but oftentimes, as a byproduct of your healing process, things happen where maybe you become less averse to the opposite sex and maybe you become less drawn in to the same sex in your fantasies. That can happen. It doesn't always happen, but Jordan is living proof that this stereotype is not always true and a lot of guys experience attraction to just one woman, which is actually not really a bad thing. You know Right, if we hold to a traditional Christian sexual ethic and view of marriage as between one man and one woman, being attracted to a wide variety of women can actually be very inconvenient. So being attracted to women is not the goal and all it takes to have a great, healthy dating or marriage relationship is to be attracted to one woman.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Let me tell you a little story about one of my friends who experienced exclusive same-sex attraction for his whole life until he met a young woman who he started to enjoy as a friend and then maybe kind of sort of had feelings. They talked about his experiences before they decided to get engaged and when they got married they had amazing sex every night of their honeymoon, even having simultaneous orgasms. It's like wow, that is unbelievable. I had such a worse experience, even though all of my fantasies basically have been about women. I did not have that experience on my honeymoon, and so it really broke down some of those stereotypes and assumptions in my mind to realize that what you think might happen if you get married is not always the reality. And that story goes against stereotype number six SSA guys can't have a happy or healthy marriage with a woman. How about you, jordan?

Speaker 2: 25:06

Yeah. So I've been married to my wife, Sharice, for 13 years now and I would say we have a really healthy relationship. We have had to work really hard at it, like you do in any marriage. We have conflict, we raise our voice at each other, we have disagreements and we also have a lot of fun together and we have a pretty great sex life. Let's go. We really experience a life of love and meaning with each other and we've cultivated healthy habits into our marriage, like good communication, how to have healthy conflict, working on our budget chores just all of these things that go into a marriage and we work really hard to support each other and to show love and attention to each other, even with having two small children who take a lot of our attention away. So it's not easy.

Speaker 1: 26:26

However, marriage is never easy. It's never just happily ever after.

Speaker 1: 26:33

It's challenging ever after. It's rewarding, for sure, but SSA does not disqualify anybody from getting married. Now. Having a relationship with porn is a major issue, but just experiencing attraction to other men is not a deal breaker for being able to have a healthy marriage. It might be a deal breaker for a woman who finds that out and has a lot of fears or has a lot of trauma around it. However, a great marriage is possible for any man who is living in sexual health and freedom from porn.

Speaker 2: 27:16

Yeah, I you know, drew, when I started dating Charisse, I knew that I was going to need to tell her about this. She knew I had an addiction to pornography and I was already in a good amount of recovery at that point, so I could really talk about it like it was in the past. But the same-sex attracted part I wanted to give her some time and tell her and really help her. You know, to know, is and to sort in her heart. Would this be a deal breaker with me? And it obviously wasn't, because we're we're married. But yeah, I think it's really important that you know, especially in a marriage and for you guys that are listening that are maybe engaged or in a relationship, it's important to be honest about this and to have some safe form of disclosure with it so that you know this person knows what they're getting into when they get married to you.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Exactly there's this idea that any married man who experiences SSA is just kidding himself and faking it. No, Like, I know so many SSA men who have a great marriage and Jordan is not the only one who has a great marriage while also experiencing same-sex attraction at the same time. I mean, I have a great marriage even as I experience a sexual fetish, an unwanted sexual attraction that affects me from time to time and I still get triggered. That does not have to dictate what I do in marriage and, in case you haven't heard me say this before, everyone experiences unwanted sexual attraction of some kind towards certain members of the opposite sex, or towards certain members of the same sex or, for some people, not even towards humans, towards pixels on a screen or cartoons or animals and at Husband Material. We can help you navigate that and same-sex attraction is just one direction. It doesn't have to dictate your decisions.

Speaker 1: 29:56

While some people see SSA as a disqualification for marriage, others believe SSA is a disqualification for leadership or ministry. This is stereotype number seven. Ssa men are less qualified for leadership roles, especially in the church. Jordan, what do you think? Roles?

Speaker 2: 30:17

especially in the church, jordan. What do you think? Well, I very much disagree with this stereotype. I work at a church. Over time shared more and more with the leadership of our church about my struggle and they didn't really see it as an issue, which was pretty incredible.

Speaker 1: 30:41

I think the truth is, when men who experience SSA are in a place of health vulnerability about these things is incredible, for ministry, yeah, helps people feel safe to open up to you, it helps you be real, authentic and it's an open door for ministry, not a closed door, when you can integrate it in a healthy, mature way. Yet some churches continue to have this belief that an elder or a pastor should be the husband of one wife and therefore single guys can't be pastors, which is so absurd because Jesus was single, paul was single, and also sometimes SSA gets lumped in with that. It's like well, if you experience SSA, then guess you can't be a pastor, guess you can't be a missionary. And it's not okay. It's really not okay to stereotype people and disqualify people with this. Part of the reason why sometimes SSA is perceived as a threat is because of stereotype number eight the idea that SSA guys are not safe to work with children. This is, in part, influenced by all of the clergy abuse that has happened, where Catholic priests, for example, have sexually abused boys, youth pastors have sexually abused boys and girls, and sometimes same-sex attraction is conflated with pedophilia. But those are two very different things. Yes, sometimes they go together.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Yet what makes someone potentially unsafe to work with children is not what they experience on the inside, it's what do we do with those experiences? Do we process them in healthy ways? Do we open up in community? Do we get the help we need? Are we living in alignment with God's standards of safety and integrity? Safety and integrity Judging who should be safe to work with children shouldn't be based on what someone's sexual thoughts and feelings are toward one gender or the other gender. It should be based on aspects of integrity and being committed to safety policies and strong track record. I mean a lot of guys don't feel safe to open up in their church context about SSA because of the questions of whether or not they'll be seen differently or seen as qualified for leadership or safe to work with kids. It's really sad. We even had a guy in our community once who was removed from a mission trip that he was planning to go on where he would be visiting an orphanage, because pastor found out that he struggles with SSA. So these ideas are out there and we need to call them out.

Speaker 1: 33:51

Being attracted to men or women is irrelevant to how safe someone is to work with children. Men or women is irrelevant to how safe someone is to work with children. Now, when someone's arousal template is focused on children and this person has a history with that issue of abusing children, then of course that person is not safe. A guy who feels called to work with teenagers and yet is experiencing sexual temptation to do inappropriate things with those teenagers probably not in a safe vocational role there. But that has nothing to do with SSA. That has to do with something deeper. Another variation on these stereotypes is stereotype number nine.

Speaker 1: 34:42

Ssa goes hand in hand with sex addiction. So if somebody says that they experience SSA, you automatically assume that they have an addiction or an attachment to porn or that they struggle with hooking up or something along those lines, when that's not always the case. There are lots of SSA guys who don't have a relationship with porn and who don't have an addiction. Ssa is not a life sentence to sexually struggle. It is not necessarily a predictor of building a relationship with pornography. In an environment influenced by purity culture where there's a lot of fear, shame and condemnation, yes, that is likely going to be a temptation. But in more accepting, welcoming environments SSA can just be another part of life and there are a lot of healthy men who don't deal with porn, who experience SSA, and it's not a big deal. Ssa does not necessarily go hand in hand with sexual addiction. It can go hand in hand with sexual health. It can be just another part of life, like an emotion, like anger or fear or shame or sadness, something that we feel.

Speaker 2: 36:03

You think about same-sex attraction. I would say that all men have it to a degree. You desire friendship. You desire to get to know a guy and have fun with them and know them and be in friendship fellowship. I would say there are guys that they live in, that they know. Yeah, I experience arousal toward the same sex. It got sexualized somewhere along the way. But really at the heart is a desire for connection in a healthy and good way and it doesn't have to go into sex addiction.

Speaker 1: 36:52

Correct. Men who experience opposite sex attraction erotically might experience a deep longing and hunger for emotional connection with other guys, and we've talked about that a little bit in the stereotypes episode just before this one about opposite sex attraction stereotypes, attraction stereotypes. All men are attracted to other men emotionally, relationally, because we're built that way, we're built for brotherhood, we're built for friendship. I really like the way you said it. In the instances where I have experienced same-sex attraction and the thought of like, oh, that guy is really good looking, or what would it be like to kiss that guy, it comes and then it passes and it's like, yeah, that was there. It doesn't become addictive. I don't just keep thinking about it and thinking about it and dwelling on it and eventually getting into a place where I'm keeping secrets and seeking out these behaviors privately. It's just something that my brain and body felt, just like any other emotion, and for some guys it's more exclusive, it's more persistent, it's more all-consuming. So this is where we have to talk about the difference between same-sex attraction and same-sex sexualized attachment, be more precise with our language. But yeah, I feel like the assumption is that if somebody's opening up about SSA, that they're opening up about an area of unhealth or they're opening up about some kind of problem that they have. Well, not necessarily. The last stereotype I want to bring up is something I used to believe that I no longer believe the idea that SSA guys are miserable, clingy and weak and this was based on some real experiences that I had. The truth is, those were a few individuals and they do not represent everyone and, in fact, those experiences don't even necessarily represent those individuals. Maybe they were feeling miserable, clingy and weak when we had our friendship, but I hope they're doing really well now. But I hope they're doing really well now.

Speaker 1: 39:16

During some of my first encounters with guys in college, when they would open up to me about same-sex attraction, I had this prejudiced, stereotyped view of them. I didn't think that I was better than them, but I thought that I was better off than them. I think a lot of OSA guys and SSA guys believe this lie that opposite sex attraction means you're better off. You've got it better in life. If you've got same sex attraction, that means you're worse off, and wouldn't it be great if that part of your life was different? That's just not true. There are so many different experiences that can make somebody miserable. That can lead to a style of relating that we might call clingy. That can leave someone feeling weak, and although same-sex attraction can be a part of that, there are so many more factors at play. Now that I've met and befriended hundreds of SSA men, I see a lot of them living redemptive, fulfilling lives. They're strong, they're connected, they're joyful.

Speaker 1: 40:32

Ssa is not a prison cell. It's not a lower status. It doesn't make you a second-class citizen. That's good news. I feel like I'm preaching. Come on, drew. So Jordan, for you, right now, having experienced years of freedom from gay porn and an ongoing experience of same-sex attraction, that has lost its power over you.

Speaker 2: 41:04

What is it like for you at this point in your story? Yeah, I feel very empowered in my own story and I really have experienced just moments of powerful freedom where I have invited Jesus into you. Know, you think of these, the miserable, clingy and weak SSA guy. I've definitely felt that way before and I will say this also opposite sex attracted guys can be miserable, clingy and weak. Very true. And so within my own story I have, you know, in the work that I've done, where you know I felt insecurity at different points or I believed a certain lie. Like I said in the beginning of the episode, I'm not one of the guys or something is wrong with me, and those feelings can get triggered in real life, in present day life. For me today, they don't get triggered like they used to, they don't make me feel so clingy or miserable and maybe sometimes I do feel that way and that's where you know I just I share with the Lord, I share with my wife, that man. I feel pretty weak right now and that's actually really healthy and good.

Speaker 1: 42:43

It's not because of SSA, it's because you're human. Yeah, sometimes men think that they feel a certain way or they're struggling with certain things because of SSA, and I hope in this episode we've separated those a little bit. If you're struggling, if you're suffering, it's because you SSA, and I hope in this episode we've separated those a little bit. If you're struggling, if you're suffering, it's because you're human. And even if you experience sexual attraction to other men, sometimes it's not because there's something wrong with you, it's because you're human. And I think there's some hope in that, because whether or not our attractions change Because whether or not our attractions change, we can feel less miserable or clingy or weak. As we heal, as we grow, as we outgrow porn, we can outgrow some of these stereotypes. Jordan, what is your favorite thing about freedom from porn?

Speaker 2: 43:31

My mind is in a sexualized. I'm not always thinking about that, because there's more to life than sex. There's more to life than this and our culture has made such a. Sex is the answer. You know identity in this is the answer. You figure out who you are when it comes to your sexuality. You have it made and I just think that's wrong. I think of myself and outgrowing porn. I'm like, oh, this is so good, it's so freeing and it brings so much more peace to my own story and in my marriage and the way that I interact with my kids and my ministry. It's just, it's good, it's good.

Speaker 1: 44:36

It's so good, jordan, thank you so much for sharing your story and helping us bring out more complexity to the way we see each other, letting go of some of our assumptions and stereotypes. This was actually part two of a three-part series on same-sex attraction and opposite-sex attraction. Part one was opposite-sex attraction stereotypes. Part two here is same-sex attraction stereotypes, and part three is going to be talking about integration between men who experience these different things sexually, and what a unique opportunity that is for all of us to go deeper into healing and freedom and outgrowing porn. Guys, if you are interested in working with Jordan, his life experience, his qualifications, his heart and his relationship with Jesus really commend him as a coach, someone who can help individuals and couples heal. So I would highly recommend going down to the show notes if you're interested in a free conversation with Jordan to explore the possibility of working with him. He also leads husband material online small groups as well, so come back next week for part three of this conversation and always remember you are God's beloved son in you. He is well-pleased.