Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go.

Speaker 1: 0:19

Today we are talking about stereotypes about opposite sex attraction, also known as OSA. Let me first tell you what a stereotype is. A stereotype is a widely held but oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing. In the husband material community, we have found that there are a number of stereotypes that men who experience predominantly same-sex attraction believe about men who don't, and in this episode you will hear 10 stereotypes with my friend and longtime Husband Material community member, jason Pitcock. Jason has had so many of these conversations and he brings some humor, some relatable stories, and I think you're really going to love hearing a little bit more nuance and complexity to this conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Please note that not all men who experience same-sex attraction leave these stereotypes and, in the same way, there are a lot of men who experience opposite-sex attraction who totally align with these stereotypes. Our hope in this is to bring a little bit more fullness to understanding these things and hopefully, by the end of it, you will have greater understanding, maybe even less shame and more desire to connect with men who are different. Enjoy the episode. Today I am with Jason Pidcock, who is a great friend, longtime member of our community. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Thank you, glad to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Jason, can you tell everyone a little bit more about who you are?

Speaker 2: 2:12

Yeah, sure, so my name is Jason. I live in Alaska, which is a unique place, to say the least. Place, to say the least. I've been here for 12 years-ish, but yeah, it's a unique place to live, but it's where I've done most of my recovery, which has lent itself to online platforms like this, so that's been kind of a one blessing in disguise. I'm married. I've got two kids with my current wife two daughters, their ages one and three, and I've got my kids with my current wife two daughters they're ages one and three, and I've got my son, who is seven, from my first marriage.

Speaker 2: 2:49

I'm a construction contractor. That's what I do for a living, and sometimes it's full-time, sometimes it's part-time job is doing recovery. Ever since I've been in it, it's been something that I've been deeply passionate about and very much needed. So it's been a long road and one that I've worked really, really hard at and spent a lot of time on, but it's something that I've never regretted for one second, any of the effort I've put in. So I really feel like, honestly, I have almost another part-time to full-time job at it and it's changed my life. So it's part of why I'm here today and just excited to share, you know, a little bit of what I've gathered along the way.

Speaker 1: 3:33

Awesome, Jason. What has been your story of husband material?

Speaker 2: 3:40

Yeah, well, I came in well it's hard to believe I think almost two and a half years ago now, because I've been to all three retreats and I was fairly new before the first retreat and from the get go I've just been really, really pleased with my overall experience. Safe place they take the safety of the community and individuals very, very seriously and I picked up on that right away and so it just felt like a place that I could really plug into, a place that has really shaped my recovery journey in ways that I had not anticipated and you know, especially kind of coming in with all that momentum, I was kind of I had a lot of training in one direction and husband material was was different and really good and positive ways that have just stretched me and grown me and I am eternally thankful for your content and the experiences I've had at the retreats and online and the community and the friendships that have developed out of that that I truly plan on lasting the rest of my life. So it's it's had a huge impact on me.

Speaker 1: 4:51

And you have also had a huge impact on husband material as well. Many of our conversations have shaped me and I know that you mean so much to a number of men and out of those friendships, many conversations have surrounded same-sex attraction, opposite-sex attraction, and you and I both find ourselves in this world where a lot of guys and husband material experience a wide variety of attractions and sometimes it feels like we are in the minority as your typical straight cisgender male.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Yeah, and when I came into husband material, I mean I was the guy who had to be like, ok, hang on, guys, what's, what's this SSA thing? I didn't even know what it was and and it's been really enlightening and and wonderful in a lot of ways to just to just learn how many men are dealing with different things and different struggles and and they have been the minority their whole lives Typically, you know they're, they've been the one that felt like you know they were the only ones or whatever, and so it's kind of it's kind of a funny you know thing here in husband material where it's like because you hear that perspective in their stories a lot and wounds that have come out of that, but it's, it's sometimes it feels like the, the reverse and in the community yeah, husband material is a unique place where it's not all SSA and it's not just a few SSA.

Speaker 1: 6:29

So today we are talking about stereotypes, about opposite sex attraction. Guys who experienced SSA were shockingly relieved to find out that some of their beliefs about guys who don't experience SSA are just not true.

Speaker 2: 6:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really fun honestly to have some of these conversations Because I mean, like what's normal in my world is not necessarily normal in the next guy's world, and so to be able to talk back and forth about that and just learn from each other and see, like you know, eyes light up and just like these tense shoulders kind of drop a little bit and deep breaths taken, it's really rewarding and it's really meaningful to me.

Speaker 1: 7:18

That's our hope for this conversation that it would be validating, relieving that. It would be validating, relieving, empowering, encouraging and maybe helping us let go of some narratives that need more nuance. I like what you said. In one of our dialogues, ewan said it's my personal perspective that many guys who experience SSA have such deep contempt for their sexual attraction that they will unfairly use it as the scapegoat for everything they don't like about themselves.

Speaker 2: 7:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Sometimes we blame things on our sexual attraction that are just human things.

Speaker 2: 8:06

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:07

So, jason, how would this conversation help men become more free from porn?

Speaker 2: 8:15

Well, the the healing results for me and my story of approaching with curiosity and compassion and create. You have to create the space to do that because, like, not a whole lot of guys come into recovery. For me and my story of approaching with curiosity and compassion and create. You have to create the space to do that because, like, not a whole lot of guys come into recovery, being really curious and compassionate towards themselves and towards their sexuality Like I would say, virtually nobody. I think that's a safe bet and so that's not just like something you just say, hey, here's what you do, and a guy just like, oh, okay, that's that's what I do, okay, let's do that. You know, it's like you got to create the space for it first and, like, really make room for it.

Speaker 2: 8:51

And so part of that I see is is kind of what we're describing here is like let's take, let's take some of that crushing weight and some of those resentments and contempts and things, and and take that off of your sexuality so that there's just a space available for you to have a conversation with those parts of you and instead of it just being a shouting match or a, you know, a war or a battle, and then you have a much more self-loving and peaceful environment in which we can approach healing.

Speaker 2: 9:23

Because this is and again more emphasis on the HM approach like this is about creating a healing environment, and nobody wants to go into a hospital or an operating room where there's just chaos and people shouting and angry and it's like that's not a healing environment. So we want to create the space for that and I feel like this is an integral part of that. I just wrote this kind of in preparation as we were trying to gather some of our thoughts, and that for the podcast I wrote if your goal is to approach your sexuality with curiosity and compassion, you cannot expect to succeed when you have made your sexuality the scapegoat for everything you dislike about yourself. You're being unfair, unkind, maybe abusive to your sexuality when you demand that it take responsibility for things it's just not responsible for. Curiosity and compassion will not prevail in such a hostile environment. So if that's our goal here is to create that space of curiosity and compassion, I really feel like this is a key part of doing that.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Yeah, definitely. So we're going to talk about 10 stereotypes about OSA, opposite sex attraction. Before we do that, we need to say some disclaimers, because, unfortunately, our use of language is going to be imperfect. So we're going to use these labels of SSA and OSA, meaning same sex attraction and opposite sex attraction, understanding how they can be helpful in describing our experiences. And yet they're also limited, like there is a wide spectrum of attraction and it's not always just one that somebody experiences. So these labels can be hurtful, they can lead to division and otherness.

Speaker 1: 11:26

No one likes to be labeled, no one likes to be oversimplified. However, they can be useful in identifying similar struggles, experiences and perspectives for the sake of communication. So just because we're talking about quote-unquote SSA guys and OSA guys, it doesn't mean that's your identity. It doesn't mean that you have to be in one group or the other. Hopefully it will just help us talk about this stuff. These stereotypes will not apply to everyone. Not every SSA guy believes these things. Not every OSA guys is different than these things. The point is that many of these stereotypes have been suggested or verified by guys in our community and we want to talk about them and your beliefs about guys who experience opposite sex attraction may be rooted in very real personal experiences and we're not trying to say your experiences are not valid. We're trying to represent many of the experiences that might be under addressed.

Speaker 2: 12:39

Yeah, and I think I think in every stereotype, every you know generalization that you make, there's truths and there's not completely truths, depending on the situations, the people involved and whatnot. So there has to be a little bit of just flexibility here and the way these things apply to some and not others, and that's perfectly okay.

Speaker 1: 13:02

Others and that's perfectly okay. Hopefully you can have a fuller, more colorful picture of the wide variety of men, and maybe even becoming more confident in yourself as a result. Thank you for listening to the long lead up to what we're about to share. Here are 10 stereotypes about opposite sex attraction. Number one for OSA guys sex just comes easily, naturally, intensely is that your experience drew?

Speaker 2: 13:41

no, it's definitely not mine. Yeah, I've, I've I've heard this more than once. I will say, uh, within the community. I'm not thinking of anybody specifically, I mean this is over the course of years, but but just kind of a, a stereotype or an assumption or something that like that, osa guys, it's just, they, just they just get into the bedroom with their wife and it's like their bodies start vibrating, you know, and it's like, yeah, no, I don't identify with that at all. I mean, I was. I was married at 25, a virgin, and it took three or four attempts at having sex before I was even able to finish and that was really dysregulating for me, and it was, you know, it was a little bit hard for my wife. She was thinking is something wrong with me? Is he not attracted to me? I mean, this is on our honeymoon, and it was very scary, not easy to work through. And so that was my first experience with sex, after having dreamed and fantasized about this moment for years.

Speaker 1: 14:48

I've heard that over half of newly married couples don't have sex on their first night, and when I first heard that I was like what? No, oh, I hope I'm not in that majority that don't have sex their first night. But I totally was. In fact, I was so conditioned by masturbating to fantasy with my own hand that learning sex with another person even though I love this person, I think she's beautiful, she's amazing it actually took me seven months to have full intercourse with no hands. I mean, it was a while before I could get used to my wife's body, and I feel like it's really common for any guy to sometimes not feel attracted to his wife or his girlfriend, or to really love her and yet not feel turned on by her. Sometimes, I don't know, sometimes we have this idea that, like well, guys are just horny all the time.

Speaker 2: 15:51

No, and I remember just being shocked, I just remember being really shocked at how I didn't know what I was doing and I thought I would know, I just I thought I would know, I just I thought I would know and it just it'd be natural and and it's not that I had never had any encounters with women before at this point in my life I mean, but getting at that point, I just I was really struck with how inadequate I felt in that moment when we were first attempting to have sex and that that shook me just even in even in the moment, realizing were first attempting to have sex and that shook me Just even in the moment. Realizing how inadequate I felt was a difficult hurdle to overcome mentally.

Speaker 1: 16:29

Right. Feeling inadequate in the bedroom, having trouble being aroused, is not a sexual attraction thing, it's a human thing. Many of us, when we are single, think oh yeah, sex would be easy, natural, intense, and that is the case in an experience of infatuation or early on in a relationship when you have a long-term committed life together. It's actually really challenging and difficult. It's actually really challenging and difficult. Stereotype number two when dating OSA, guys approach women with confidence and swagger out of their raw masculine sexuality and women find them irresistible.

Speaker 2: 17:16

So this, this is one that came from a uh, an SSA member of the community and I laughed because it it wasn't the first time I've heard something like this and I just thought, oh my gosh, like I wish that'd be amazing. Like that, yeah, that's what happens in my fantasies, but like in real life, man, like I grew up, I was terrified of girls, absolutely terrified. Like, oh man walking around with swagger and confidence like who's that guy? Again, it's just one of those things that you hear and it's like, yeah, I don't identify with that at all.

Speaker 1: 17:52

And of course there are some who have a lot of confidence and swagger and they can easily flirt and others of us freeze or we freak out.

Speaker 1: 18:08

And it has taken me a long time to get up the courage to just be with a woman, even in a friendship context, even in a community context, and not feel like a little boy. The next stereotype is OSA. Guys don't struggle with unwanted sexual attractions that can never be fulfilled. I am increasingly convinced that everyone experiences unwanted sexual attraction of some kind or another. I can still tell you about girls from the past that sometimes I still would daydream about. I can tell you about fantasies that feel so powerful that will never come to be in my life.

Speaker 1: 19:00

In fact, for many of us, the things that are most arousing are going to be the most damaging if we actually pursue them.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:11

So for all of us, ssa, osa in a marriage, we are forsaking all others, and in singleness, we are forsaking all others. Marriage is just forsaking all others minus one. Now, what I'm able to experience now with my wife is more meaningful, it's more Christ-like and I'm committed to it and at the same time, it's proximate. It's not the very best it could be, it's not the very worst it could be, and whether we're married, single, ssa, osa, the degree of pleasure and fulfillment that we will experience is always going to be partial. I mean, yes, there is something unique when you experience consistent. Then you experience consistent, exclusive sexual feelings for only men, and that is a unique experience.

Speaker 1: 20:13

And, at the same time, the feeling of despair or loss that my sexual dreams will never come true can be true for a guy who's divorced, can be true for someone who's in a sexless marriage, it could be true for someone who's just single and getting older and interested in women, but it's never someone, or I may never get married or I may never have sexual intercourse, which just feels especially difficult in our culture, where romantic love is seen as the highest form of pleasure. Where romantic love is seen as the highest form of pleasure, there are some good reasons to feel that way and we need to process those feelings. And at the same time, there's a lot more to love and intimacy than sex and romance. One of the things, jason, you and I have experienced is the amazing fulfillment and satisfaction of friendships with husband material guys. So I resonate with having attractions that will never be fully fulfilled. Stereotype number four OSA guys don't feel incompetent in the weight room. Can you talk about this one?

Speaker 2: 21:48

yeah, and I'm a little curious to hear your perspective because I know you're a lot more physically active than I am, um, whether it's in the weight room or running down the trail or whatever. But for me, you know, I have experience, some experience in the weight room. I did that as a teenager. I mean there's a lot of working out and stuff when I was in the weight room. I did that as a teenager. I mean there's a lot of working out and stuff when I was in the military and that kind of thing. So I have like a background there.

Speaker 2: 22:08

But a number of years went by where I didn't go to the gym, I mean for more than a decade. And I remember just pulling up to a gym because I was like, okay, I'm going to get in there and just kind of like I wanted to be more physically active, you know kind of getting older and it's kind of showing up a little bit, and so it's like, ooh, okay, we need to do something here. And so I got a membership for three months. I didn't go and and it was like, what is going on here? I'm like, why am I not going? And so one day I just buckled down and I was like we're going to do this thing and I'm sitting outside of the gym and I'm just like this anxiety is just coming up and I'm, I'm like man, I I'm not wearing really the right clothes, I'm not. I'm just like so in my head about how I'm going to go in there and, like you know, everybody's going to, it's going to be record scratch for everybody. They're going to look at me and be like what? You know what is going on here and you know, if I lift the weights wrong or do like some technique that's like 30 years old, that nobody does anymore, which is all this ridiculous stuff in my head about how this was going to go down. And I was like this is crazy and I just like I just like opened the door to my truck and marched in there and like I had to really, really push through. But it was tough. Yeah, I felt, you know, I mean just again like hearing this.

Speaker 2: 23:25

This was another one of the suggestions from from some of the guys in it and this was actually. I've had this conversation with somebody before and this was really enlightening for that. It's like like man. I just thought I was that way and you know he blamed it on on his sexuality and you know, however, that that link works in his brain. Um, he, he felt contempt towards himself over this and to find out that, like here I am, like you know, with military background and all this, you know and played a lot of sports, and like I'm feeling that way just after a time period of not being in there, um, was really helpful for him and it was kind of funny for me to uh, to just self-reflect on, because it was, it was a big deal for me, it was, it was difficult it sounds like you were hyper aware and self-conscious, feeling insecure, comparing yourself to others yep, yep and narratives in my head about what they were thinking, what that guy was gonna think and what that lady was gonna think, and oh, yeah, yeah it was.

Speaker 2: 24:23

I mean it was all going just a thousand miles an hour and you know, kind of circling back to like. The point of this conversation is what I just wanted to reiterate Like some of these things are just human. Some of these insecurities and the way we, you know, we think people are looking at us and all that like's a human experience that I have to grow through, I have to go through.

Speaker 1: 24:45

And I feel incompetent in the weight room, I typically just don't go. I avoid it. Now I do feel incredibly empowered out on a trail in the mountains Just this morning. I ran up 4,000 feet elevation and it was heaven for me. Torture for someone else.

Speaker 2: 25:09

Yeah, for me that's torture. I mean, I would sort of enjoy it, but it'd be torture.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Yeah, there is a sweet spot, I believe, for each of us where we can enjoy our beauty and strength, whether that's out on the trail, for me in the weight room, for someone else in the kitchen, for someone else playing music, writing, making art. God made each of us in his image and I believe there's a version of masculinity accessible for everyone who? Well, that's not true, maybe not for women. I guess what I'm trying to say is I have found a place where I feel beautiful and strong, like I'm doing what God created me to do, and I think each of us has that somewhere deep down, and we might not know what it is or we might be ashamed of it if it feels too feminine or not manly enough yeah, well, that's what I'm hearing from you is maybe there's something about the gym, but I don't hear you like shooting yourself into this, like really uncomfortable for you experience.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Like no, go get on the trail. Like that's where you come alive. Just go to the trail. Like don't overcomplicate this thing. You don't have to fight every dragon on the on the universe, like you know, like this is where we get to be creative, find out what works for us, and you don't have to should yourself into the gym. If that's not your your scene, you need to. You know like we're trying to be healthy here so we can pursue health, but it doesn't have to be from this should uh, that could come up anywhere for any technique, maybe our buddy's doing it, maybe our community's doing it or whatever. And then we feel like we should, even though it's not what, the way we're really wired, and that's really important to be aware of. I think.

Speaker 1: 27:01

Another place where I love to use my body is in the basement, having dance parties with the little kids in my house or out on a boat with husband, material guys at the retreat I was going to say I think most of the guys in this community could probably picture that very easily, just for a number of reasons in this community could probably picture that very easily. Uh, just for a number of reasons.

Speaker 2: 27:25

But yeah, I mean, I'm more and more embracing that side of me that loves female power vocalists, electronic dance, music and just being silly and goofy, and there's sometimes a little voice in the back of my head that's like, oh, that's so gay or like, no, that's not a cool thing to like like celine dion, yes, please yeah, yeah, and it's interesting because your personality, in the way that you um do this, in the way that you risk um embodying what, what makes you come alive and excites you in the form of dance, in the form of being goofy and silly, it really confronts me in a way that I really reflect on, because when I see your outsides, I'm like that's my insides, but if you look at my outsides, they're not matching.

Speaker 2: 28:25

And you see guys in the shark bus at the retreat yanking me off of the seat in order to dance and and it's like and you know I laugh about that, but there's a sadness there because it's like I want, I want it to match and I want my, I want my limbs to do what is going on inside of me. But it's like I'm not there yet and that's okay, I'll keep growing, I'll keep, you know, creating safety for that child to come out and be childish. And I'm trying to be gentle with myself that way, because I can turn that into a shame thing real fast and kind of shame myself for not being more free. So that's a little bit of an insight into my process around some of this.

Speaker 1: 29:04

I love that and I've heard it from a few different guys. Part of why they watch this channel or listen to this podcast is because they love my excitement or my passion. I mean, the truth is, I feel a lot of shame and insecurity too in certain environments, and this episode is being heavily edited, so that helps me feel a little bit more safe. I guess what I'm saying is sometimes guys don't feel permission to be playful, sometimes guys don't feel permission to be weird or seem weak, and I hope husband material can help to change that a little bit yeah, I think it does.

Speaker 2: 29:48

I think it really does, and I mean that's just one of the many ways that this community has encouraged me further along paths of healing that I need awesome the next stereotype is related OSA guys don't feel uncomfortable in the locker room naked with the guys.

Speaker 1: 30:10

Well, that's probably true for many of us. For myself, there's a part of me that feels comfortable in the locker room and I would say there's also a part of me that sometimes gets a little bit nervous.

Speaker 2: 30:24

What do you think the differences are?

Speaker 1: 30:26

Well, you guys have probably heard me talk about this a lot. I've learned the importance of trusting my gut, and if I get a gut feeling that, like something is off in this locker room, I'm probably not going to engage. I feel like this one is really contextual, because you know who are the, the guys. I think that's going to affect how comfortable I feel personally. Are these guys that I know? Are these total strangers? How are they interacting? Are there bullies in the group? Are people being a little bit forward and promiscuous or using innuendos, or is it just a casual setting? How about for you, jason?

Speaker 2: 31:11

it's interesting what I've noticed. For me it is very contextual and I will I will take cues from like what you just described, what I've noticed, and I don't know what this is about, but I feel very comfortable. If it's strangers and if I'm with my actual buddies or close friends, my anxiety is through the roof. I don't know why that is. You know, there's probably some story there. There's probably some, you know, something formed, those, those inside reactions.

Speaker 2: 31:47

I don't have any bad experiences that I recall in a locker room or anything like that. So there's there's no traumatic memory of a bad experience. And yet there's something about I think it's, maybe it's a vulnerability issue. There's something vulnerable about like it's, maybe it's a vulnerability issue. There's something vulnerable about like this is a guy that I know, like we have a life outside of this locker room and being naked, like that feels it feels more vulnerable. That's all I know how to say it. And I, being aware of that vulnerability, I have protectors that come up and, just you know, create that anxiety of what the vulnerability is and how I might be hurt in that.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Yeah, guys can be uncomfortable in the locker room for any number of reasons, maybe anxious about others looking at them? Yeah, maybe uncomfortable because it's just strange and they've never experienced it before. I've had some wonderful nude experiences and I've had some that I know were harmful, and if you want to hear more about that, go listen to the episode Appropriate Nudity Between Men. Episode appropriate nudity between men. Stereotype number six osa guys love loud engines, hunting, sports and tools. They feel at home in the shop.

Speaker 2: 33:14

No, no, no, no and no for me I mostly know on all those, uh, I have I don't hunt. Living in alaska, it's like I'm gonna tell you right now I take a lot of flack for that one, you know. No, no hunting and no fishing for me in alaska. Um, I have to, I have to have some thick skin there. Some of the guys that I encounter because I get a lot of crap for that, um, you know, yeah, loud engines not my thing.

Speaker 2: 33:46

I am in construction and I feel like I have a little bit of a unique experience in that. So for me I am very comfortable with tools and in the shop. However, that said, what's interesting about my story is, you know, my dad. He was completely incapable when it came to anything tools, so I never learned anything growing up around tools and shop and construction. When I got into it I was 21 or 22 years old. I didn't know one end of a two by four from another, and so I really kind of started out behind a curve in a lot of ways, because a lot of people in the construction industry, you know their dad was in it or whatever, and they just grew up around these, these kinds of things, and so for me I've had a kind of a strange experience of of getting really good at some of these and getting really comfortable.

Speaker 2: 34:34

I mean, I do it as a profession and yet, because of like never having been like really trained, especially like by my dad or or anybody really for that matter, until I was in the field, I always, I always have this sensation like I'm behind the curve and my, my expertise is, um, very localized and and and basically what I would describe as rough framing, which might not mean anything to anybody.

Speaker 2: 35:02

But the point is like I don't know anything about electrical, I don't know anything about plumbing, I don't know anything about a lot of these trades that, like, when you're in my position as a contractor, people kind of expect you to know about.

Speaker 2: 35:14

You know the details of a lot of these things and, um, and so I'm always kind of like checked, like this gas break experience of like I feel really comfortable and an expert in this area, but it's like. But if anybody really knew, like how inadequate I was in a whole bunch of other areas where I'd never been taught like, then I'd be kind of found out as like a fake or like you know, it's like I would just be exposed in a way. That makes me really anxious and I feel very self-conscious about it when I'm talking with other contractors and they're talking about some electrical issue and I'm just like, yeah, man, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I don't want them to know that you know. And so I get a strange mix of both very insecure and security in that particular department, which I don't have any real big purpose in that other than just to say it's a strange experience to have both at the same time.

Speaker 1: 36:09

It sounds like even in your area of expertise and confidence and competence in a manly activity, you still sometimes feel small.

Speaker 2: 36:28

Absolutely, and anybody who's in the construction industry and very familiar with these types of things they will tell you. I'm very confident you can ask almost anybody who's aware of their heart and whatnot and their feelings. The construction industry is filled with very insecure people like to make a mistake. Oh my gosh, there's so much shame to to be that guy who nailed it together wrong and now you're taking it apart Like it is. It is a toxic shame driven environment and and it was very hard I mean I have a big story around around that just just getting into this industry late in life and when I was in the height of all of my toxic shame and it really held me back in a lot of ways because I was so terrified to to be that guy on the job site and that's I mean I've seen that in every job site I've ever been on and every crew I've been on it's like do not be that guy and that's that's coming from a place of insecurity and shame and it infiltrates the entire industry.

Speaker 2: 37:29

It's it's kind of a a secret that I've I've learned since getting into recovery and becoming aware of my heart and seeing what's going on around me. It's like man, the confidence and the, the macho-ness. It's like it's all just such a cover.

Speaker 1: 37:46

It's so interesting to have a different view of that profession, which seems like the epitome of strength.

Speaker 2: 38:01

And I wonder if the same is true for professional sports.

Speaker 1: 38:03

Yeah, yeah, I certainly wonder. I mean, I'm guessing that a lot of them deal with comparison and shame-based performance and wondering if they're going to measure up, wondering how good they're going to be, yeah, even though we view them as the heroes and the alpha males these are human experiences.

Speaker 2: 38:22

Right like, that's what we're talking. It's like forget the industry, forget the sexual orientation, forget the like, whatever you know, think thing. You think you have the like the market cornered on. It's like, no, like. We're all humans. We're all dealing with this shame. We're all dealing with these insecurities that are just coming out in our professions, our hobbies, you know, our sexuality. They're just coming out out everywhere. It's really a common human experience.

Speaker 1: 38:48

Yeah, and enjoying art, music, other aesthetic inclinations are not a gay thing, not an SSA thing, and I've also noticed a number of SSA guys who love hunting and they're super athletic.

Speaker 2: 39:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 39:13

So there are stereotypes on both sides that are not always true. Stereotype number seven OSA guys don't need brotherhood as much as SSA guys. Let me tell you, brotherhood is oxygen for my soul and if I don't have it I am not going to be healthy, emotionally, relationally, sexually. That's part of why I created husband material. That's part of why I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life, because I need brotherhood. And it kind of bothers me if somebody says like well, I need brotherhood because of my specific sexual attractions, and it's like no, you need brotherhood because you're a man. That's how I feel. I feel passionate about this.

Speaker 2: 40:02

This is the first one in this whole list that I don't know if you can see on video, but my face is flushed, I'm like tearing up because I feel so passionate about it as well, and and my heart just was like bursting out of my chest as you were talking, because I feel the same amount of passion, and I know other guys that do too. It's like this is, this is my lifeblood, and you know, I know I I do eventually, you know, want to get into recovery full time and I I dream about the day that I'll just be able to just connect with guys all day long and and have that be a part of my living in my life. Um, because I'm so passionate about this stuff, and I'm so passionate about this stuff, I'm so passionate about connecting with other guys that way.

Speaker 1: 40:56

And it's not arousing, it is absolutely satisfying. I mean, maybe it is arousing in the sense that it's exciting, in the sense that it's energizing, and maybe for some people it does have a sexual energy. Regardless, god created us to be in community with the same sex and the opposite sex. Both are necessary. How good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell together in unity. Psalm 133.

Speaker 2: 41:27

That's so good.

Speaker 1: 41:28

Stereotype number eight OSA guys don't have strong emotions except being mad about something.

Speaker 2: 41:47

I've always said that I feel like my emotions sort of start at like a seven and then go to ten from there. I don't even have a one through six. So this is just one of those things. It's like I don't. I don't identify with it at all, but I can understand, like, why this myth exists. And the truth is like I think a lot of men are very hurt and and and under fathered and they're not in touch with their hearts. That's not about their sexuality. It has nothing to do with their sexuality. It has to do with, maybe, their woundedness or whatever's happened that has that has cut them off from their heart and those feelings um, and, and it just has nothing to do with sexuality at all right.

Speaker 1: 42:21

A lot of it has to do with cultural scripts about what it means to be a man.

Speaker 2: 42:26

Yep, men, don't cry, men, power through men, tough it out yep, and as far as I'm concerned, those are all woundings because they're not true. They're not true. They're not what's true about that man's heart. It might be true about, like, his behavior and the way that he manages and chooses to manage has been trained to manage his heart, but it's not the truth about his heart.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Oftentimes being mad about something or the anger that is often the primary emotion you might see from a stereotypical man's man is a secondary emotion to what's really going on, like sadness or shame or loneliness. So we all have emotions. We need to get in touch with them. This ninth stereotype says osa, guys don't care about feelings yeah, very related to to number eight.

Speaker 2: 43:27

They don't have emotions, they don't care about feelings. To me it feels like it's. It's just more of a more of the same. More of the same wounding and and out playing out of that wounding. If, if you can't, if you can't tolerate your emotions and you're not even aware of your emotions, you're certainly not going to value them.

Speaker 1: 43:45

Yeah, most guys haven't been emotionally discipled. Most guys haven't gone on a journey of developing emotional maturity, emotional intelligence, so it may be a case of ABT ain't been taught. Maybe a case of ABT ain't been taught. As Joe Martin says, we don't get socialized into emotional health.

Speaker 2: 44:27

In my experience being in several different inpatient treatment programs I've had the advantage of sitting in process groups with brand new guys who would fit this stereotype like to a T, and they come in and we're going to do a feelings check-in and they're like I don't know, I don't feel nothing, you know, and like that's their check-in and it's. It's always been really remarkable to me with with a skilled therapist to see like how quickly they can start getting to some emotions and and it's like. You know, it's just, it's, it's funny, but not like. I'm not laughing at that guy. It brings joy to my heart because it's like. It's like, it's like we're made alike, like like you, you, even though no matter how shut down it is and no matter how pressed down and put out, it is like it's there and and and. With somebody who knows what they're doing, they can really bring it out actually like relatively easily.

Speaker 2: 45:08

And I remember this this one guy in particular was like that and the therapist just went right by Okay, you know, thanks and went around the room with eight other people and he just came back to the guy and that the other eight we'd, we'd been there for a while.

Speaker 2: 45:20

So we were checking with feelings and you know, we're know we got a rhythm, and he just checks back in with the guy and says how do you feel about, you know, the fact that all eight guys checked in with, like, some pretty in-depth feelings and you didn't have any?

Speaker 2: 45:31

What do you feel about that? And all of a sudden you could see him kind of like you know, like like things were stirring up all of a sudden because he realized he was the only one in the room and he was feeling some shame about it and you know some different things just started popping up and it was like it was. It was just so easy to to really like crack that, you know, crack the top on that thing, and to me that's it just. It just brings out the passion for me in recovery of like, like, how Grant this stuff is like it's so difficult and also like, in a lot of ways it's very easy and and our hearts are just they're, they're made for this, they're bent for it like it doesn't take a lot to get it to come out all we need is to create the space yeah, exactly and enter in with curiosity and compassion.

Speaker 1: 46:18

Obviously we're cultivating that in husband material and we have a great tool for you guys to get in touch with your feelings and get to know other guys and actually have a vulnerable conversation together, developing a deep friendship together, using the man cards. So husband material man cards are great for creating conversations where you can talk about deep things. If you're ready for that, getyourmancardscom. It's not just for one type of guy, it's for everybody. Yeah, stereotype number 10 this one received a lot of comments in our community. Osa guys would be repulsed by me if they knew I was SSA and or if I ever touched or hugged them. This one breaks my heart and in some cases that was true and guys have experienced that repulsion. Or a friend who starts ghosting you or avoiding you once they know about this part of you yeah, this is.

Speaker 2: 47:32

I think this is really tough because with the guys that I've interacted with at least, um, there's usually very specific memories tied to this particular perspective and this narrative and they're they're usually not low on the pain scale. So I think that this one is deeply tied to a lot of trauma and traumatic experiences and it is. It is very heartbreaking. Again, I don't know what I don't have to say other than like I don't identify with it for whatever that's worth. Like I don't feel repulsed by somebody that I know is SSA. It doesn't mean that I'm unaware or or whatever. Like I mean I still have my own boundaries and my own radars and my own, you know, red flags and things like that. I'm concerned about my safety and in any environment. I think that's just part of being a healthy person. But knowing that your SSA doesn't trip one of my red flags like it's like. No, like you being really weird toward me trips my red flag, so don't be weird, you know it's like.

Speaker 2: 48:50

So I interact with SSA guys all the time on the platform and in person at the retreats and I don't feel any repulsion towards them at all.

Speaker 2: 49:00

But if a guy acts weird towards me, like yeah, I feel guarded. I feel like, hey, what's up? You know, and there's been times where I've had to have conversations with guys and some of them that I was raged at and some of them I was responded really well to. I'm thinking of one one in particular where the guy just responded like really empathetically and asked a few clarifying questions and and just you know, like absolutely gave me space to to be where I was and I was like man, this is like a super safe guy and I loved it. And we've spent years now Marco poloing and texting back and forth and having, you know, the types of longer distance relationships we have here on HM with them. As a result, and it was like for me it's like a beautifully, you know, it's a beautiful memory that I'm very fond of and a friendship that I now have as a result of two people just being honest and allowing the other to be where they're at.

Speaker 1: 49:57

Yeah, if you would like to disprove this stereotype or supplement your past experiences with new ones, come to a husband material event. It doesn't even have to be the retreat, it could just be a local meetup. It's a wonderful mix of different types of men who are all here for connection and personally I love hugging you guys. It's really life-giving to me. At times I've heard the sentiment that an SSA guy doesn't want to be a stumbling block or he doesn't want to taint or infect someone else. And the truth is you are not a disease. No, you are God's beloved son and you he is well-pleased and it's a gift to know you. It's a blessing to be with you. That's how I feel.

Speaker 2: 50:58

Yeah, you know, I think, because of the level of pain that is typically behind these types of fears and anxieties, fears and anxieties, I just want to affirm like that it's, it's, it's very natural that you would even just come into husband material and like not trust right away and like still be really terrified of of this thing and and an exchange, a very painful exchange, happening. And so I'm just saying, like you know, again, just extending that kindness to yourself, like this is understandable and it's a different environment. It seems to be safe and take as much time as you need to to determine whether or not it's safe and who's safe, and like be kind to yourself that way and if you feel like, if you feel like you want to try to have an embodied new experience, like watch, watch somebody and start small and be kind to yourself, and you can begin to build new experiences in safe environments like this, and and find out that you know, um, not everybody is that really abusive 13 year old jerk who was, who was in the locker room. There's some guys in here in this community who are just ridiculously loving and compassionate and have all the space in the world. I would hate for guys to move in and out of the HM community and never, never, have the experience of of of being loved, of this part of them being loved and cared for. And you know, basically the opposite of mocked, the opposite of berated, the opposite of jeered and laughed at and traumatized.

Speaker 2: 52:40

I mean, Drew, you've said it a million times about like creating new embodied experiences Like this is not about reading a book, this is not about listening to a podcast and gaining healing Like you have to experience this stuff to a podcast and gaining healing, like you have to experience this stuff. And to me, this is that that's like part of the goal of husband material and the safety that it provides is it's like it's this massive landscape for people to have new experiences and it yes, it's it's largely online and so there are limitations that way, but that's what makes the retreats so powerful, I think, um, because you really get to practice that, and I think that I experience it, even through the digital media. I think I've experienced it a ton, and some guys may have different opinions about that and I'm not saying there's no difference, but I still feel like I have embodied experiences through computer screens all the time.

Speaker 1: 53:36

Yeah, there you have it Ten stereotypes about opposite sex attraction that are widely believed, often true yet oversimplified. So, Jason, what do you want people to take away from this conversation?

Speaker 2: 53:56

my hope is that, you know, kind of going back to what we started with, a little bit like that, men will unburden some of these, unburden their sexuality from some of these things, some of these stereotypes, that sort of reinforce shame, reinforce anxiety, reinforce self-contempt and contempt towards their same-sex attractions specifically.

Speaker 2: 54:21

So I would hope that there would be some unburdening there and ultimately, my hope is that there would be again just an increased consciousness that husband material is an environment that can contain different experiences if you're willing to risk having them.

Speaker 2: 54:44

And I would hope that this podcast would allow guys to open that door and to take a step through, maybe for the first time, and begin to have some experiences that perhaps they've never, ever had before in ways that would heal their hearts, that they might not have ever imagined being possible before. That might sound really, really big. Um, I mean, I think it happens. You tends to happen slowly and less dramatically than we want it to be Like you don't go make a DM, you know, and then your whole life changes, but just to take that next step and have that next embodied experience that allows space for the next one and the next one and more and more, and I think it could really, you know, ultimately be a new path for men and in the path of healing that they've never experienced and maybe have convinced themselves that it's just not possible because of some of these stereotypes.

Speaker 1: 55:42

I hope some barriers have been broken down. I hope this will create a greater sense of belonging and validation. Yeah, no matter what your sexuality is or feels like, you are a man and together we're outgrowing porn. We're becoming emotionally sexually mature and that's really hard for everybody. Osa, SSA. So maybe some shame has been reduced, Maybe some fear has been alleviated. Hopefully you have greater curiosity and compassion for yourself and for other guys who are different. Jason, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. What is your favorite thing about freedom from porn?

Speaker 2: 56:50

For me, the freedom that I've experienced up to this point has really probably the most, the way I feel it the most is just the absence of the chaos inside my body that it creates, whether that's, you know, walking around in public feeling like you know an animal because I'm just so in that mental state, or whether it's at home and just being more at peace with my wife and myself and my family.

Speaker 2: 57:24

Um, to me that's like the clarity around that and, uh, the calmness that sort of comes up when I'm not in that full blown like lust crazy mode, has been a reward to me that I feel like I'm growing an embodied experience of like you know, this actually is better than that, and my recovery started out much more like. I'm kind of having to accept that by faith and I'm kind of like taking your word for it, and it's really really hard to take your word for it. And so for me, the more extended periods I get, the more I'm like, no, this is better, it is much better, and I anticipate that continuing to just grow and grow and become more concrete in my, my psyche, my conscience, my, my body, to where this becomes more, my, my heart and my life feel like more naturally healed and I'm not. I'm not just managing anymore and cause that's the existence that I loathed. Is that just trying to manage it all? It's? It's just a terrible existence.

Speaker 1: 58:33

So, instead of battling your sexuality and battling these parts of you, you have befriended these parts of you and found a way to have more clarity and calm in your body.

Speaker 2: 58:46

Yes, yes, and. And this community has been an enormous, if not the bulk, of giving me that space to do that and even the the vision to do that.

Speaker 1: 58:59

That's awesome. Thank you, jason. Stay tuned for part two and three, as we talk about SSA, stereotypes and integration. For now, if you want to talk about this, for now, if you want to talk about this, go into the Husband Material community and let's have a curious, compassionate conversation. Always remember you are God's beloved son and in you he is well-pleased.