Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Hey man, thank you so much for listening to my interview with Nathaniel Gustafson. It was amazing.

Speaker 1: 0:54

This is all about how to develop empathy, specifically focused on married men who are outgrowing pornography and other similar behaviors. Developing empathy for their wives and understanding why that's important, what it really looks like and how to grow in this area, because my friend, and how to grow in this area. Because, my friend, you can grow and heal and become the man of integrity and character who is worthy of trust. And, by the way, if you're listening to the podcast, you might just want to go down to the description and get the link to the video, because Nathaniel shares some really helpful visuals and that can help you learn. Enjoy the episode. Today we are hanging out with Nathaniel Gustafson, who is a licensed professional counselor who specializes in working with couples, men affair recovery, sexual addiction. He's trained in EMDR, eft, and what you may not know is that he's actually my friend and we live pretty close to each other here in Colorado, so it's been really fun to get to know Nathaniel over the last year. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Thank you, I appreciate being here. I like hanging out with you, even if it isn't virtually.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Yes, whether it's disc golf or something else, it's always great to be together. Today, we're talking about empathy, nathaniel. What is your story around empathy and this journey of freedom and healing?

Speaker 2: 2:17

Oh my, that is a big one, real. Briefly, my story I lied to my wife for 10 years with regard to my use of pornography and masturbation, and during that time I was also in the pastorate, and so life blew up for me while I was in the senior pastorate and it was hard, all right. So I'm sure you guys are on board with where I'm at now. Empathy for me is one of the most important things, not only in my own healing, but in my wife's healing and our healing as well. What I found was I didn't want to look at my wife's pain that I caused in her, and so I would avoid that. I would keep it at Arden's length and I wouldn't look at it. And what that did is it distanced me from the impact on her heart and because I didn't know the true impact, I didn't really take it seriously. I allowed it to be just porn, and for me, because I had minimized it, it was just porn, but for her it was heartbreaking, devastating, crippling, and I refused to see it. And so, as I got together with my counselor counselor and he helped me move toward empathy what I discovered was the more I connected with my wife's pain at that just heart-rending place, the more motivation I had to remain sober. So like that's one of the reasons why empathy is the most important thing in my journey.

Speaker 2: 3:52

Wow, there were numerous times in working with my wife where she didn't need me to fix it or do anything about it. She simply wanted me to join her in her pain, because so many times us guys we go to fix it mode and she's smart enough to know there is no fix for this. You can't go back in time, you can't undo it, but by Nathaniel, you staying distant from me and avoiding my pain, it's like you're doubling down on the wound. She was inviting me to fix it. I was hearing all of her anger, all of her pain, all of her confrontation, all of that.

Speaker 2: 4:40

I heard that as condemnation. That's not what she was doing. She was giving me an invitation to join her in her pain and once it clicked for me, once I realized, oh, this is all my issue that's getting in the way, all my shame. That hears it. As she's pointing her finger, she's rubbing her nose in it Like no, no, no, no, that's not what she's doing. She's exposing the pain that was caused by my behavior and she's inviting me in to join and maybe even mend together through the pain.

Speaker 1: 5:13

She's opening her heart to you, sacred moment. Yeah, to see how you'll respond, and that is why I love your metaphor about jumping into the pool of nasty. What?

Speaker 2: 5:29

does that mean? So I tend to think in pictures, and I use my whiteboard a lot, and I have found that when I try to describe complex topics like empathy, sometimes it helps to have these pictures because they're abstract topics, but if we can take something that we're a lot more familiar with and go there, it tends to land the plane a little bit better for many of the guys I work with, myself included, and so I came up with the pool of nasty as one of those analogies to try to help guys get past some of the blocks towards empathy and be able to overcome them and kind of identify some of the places they misstep when they try to come alongside their spouse and do it right and then they just, you know, kind of fail sometimes.

Speaker 1: 6:19

So, guys, if you are just listening to the podcast, you may want to go down to the link in the description to watch the video, if you want to see the visual that Nathaniel is about to share.

Speaker 2: 6:28

Yeah, okay. So this is what we call the pool of nasty. And so there is a pool with your wife barely keeping her head above water on it and you're on the sidelines. Now you're not in this nasty anymore, you're not in your shame, you're not acting out, you're, you know, you're working your program so that you are, you know, living in integrity. Yay, awesome, great.

Speaker 2: 6:50

But just because you are no longer there doesn't mean your wife isn't living in the consequences of your decisions, right? So a lot of times, wives are still stuck back there going oh, this is heavy, this is hard, like I'm dying here Right Now. What we want to do is we want to rescue her in some way, shape or form, and so what tends to happen is our wife is over here yelling for help, help, help, get me out of here, and what some well-meaning guys do is they offer platitudes, right? So he will say such things, as you know, why don't you? Why don't you forgive?

Speaker 2: 7:41

No, forgive and forget? Why don't you? You know, let let the past be the past. Just don't, don't bring it up anymore, or like just just kind of stop it, don't think about it, and it goes away. Now, some of these obviously are like denial, things that you probably used in the past and didn't serve you well and now they won't serve your wife well. Some of them are, you know, intending to be helpful, but they're really not Like forgive and forget, not good.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Well, it can sound like what God wants us to do in the moment. Right, it's spiritualizing it, and it can actually be spiritually abusive.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Amen, right, and let's even go. Let's go. Theology here. We're supposed to forgive as God forgives, right. If God forgives and forgets, that means he forgets something God cannot forget and still be God. He would no longer be omniscient, and so we don't want God to forget, because then he would stop being God, and so like we shouldn't be endorsing this at all. Forgive him, forgive his nonsense. The only good thing about it is it's alliterated, but it doesn't have any real good practical purposes. I'm gonna trust our, our fellas are smart enough to go.

Speaker 2: 8:58

Yeah, I know this stuff doesn't work, um, but that's. That's not even the reason why I put it up here. The real reason why this stuff doesn't work is because look at the distance between the two of y'all. There's a giant chasm between her drowning in that pool of nasty and him sitting on the sidelines. That is the most destructive thing, and so what we need to do is we need to jump in that pool with our wives living with her in the mire, in the pain, in the destruction that is now her life. Sometimes, when I draw this arrow, a fellow will say okay, nathaniel, that's all well and good, but now there's two of us that are drowning. This doesn't make any sense, like why would you want me to do that? Well, one, that's how lifeguards do it. They jump in to the person that's drowning and they help. And two, look at the distance between the two of y'all.

Speaker 1: 10:02

And if you can't see the whiteboard right now, it's really the closeness between these two.

Speaker 2: 10:09

Proximity.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:11

Science backs me up here as well. Two studies One at the bottom of a trailhead that has individuals come to a bottom of trailhead and they ask the individual you know, how high is it at the top of the mountain? Give an estimate. And the individual gave a big number. Then they had couples come to the exact same trailhead and they asked the couple how high is it to the top of the mountain? And couples gave a statistically significant lower number. Right. And the reason why is because our brain does math differently when we're with somebody else.

Speaker 2: 10:45

I mean, that's the whole notion of like teams and you know, hoorah, military units and what have you. It's like you have your people, and when you're with your people you can withstand more pain, endure more, accomplish more. Same thing with regard to your marriage, right? So same principle. Different study they hooked a woman up to an fMRI machine Drew, I know, you know this study and they ring a bell. Then they shock her foot. So the bell rings and her brain, knowing it's coming, lights up with fear, anxiety, then zap pain. And then they have her hold an orderly's hand. They ring the bell and her brain lights up with fear, anxiety and zap pain. Then they have her hold her husband's hand, they ring the bell and her brain barely lights up with fear, anxiety and pain. So at a neurological level, they're watching what her brain does and how it responds to these stimulus. And when she is touching her husband, her brain literally does not perceive as much fear, anxiety and pain Just because she's touching the one she loves.

Speaker 1: 11:59

It's so beautiful and inspiring and at the same time I'm thinking to myself. With a lot of our listeners, the husband coming close is not always that source of comfort and safety that it should be.

Speaker 2: 12:19

Yes, exactly, and that's a lot of times what a fellow will say to me. So the caveat I give here is, like everything I just described with regard to the studies and whatnot, those are non-betrayal couples. Now the same principle of apply to betrayal land. It's just a little bit more tricky and that's incumbent on us, the fella, to be aware of those dynamics and to do our best to overcome them. Okay, so now let's take your observation right there to say, like if he is pursuing her and it's not safe for her, we don't want to make it worse by imposing ourself on her, saying no, honey, we're never going to heal. Unless you come close to me, unless you give me an opportunity to empathize with you, we're never going to heal Like whoa. That's even less safe. You can hear it in my voice.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Like I feel dangerous, right, yeah, and so it's on us to approach, not in a hostile way or not in a demanding way, but in a very respectful way that provides more safety. The alternative, though, is something we already talked about is some guys retreat. They take distance. They avoid in those moments because their shame is getting in the way. I'm not safe for for her, so I'll retreat. That can be just as devastating as egregious pursuit, right, so there's a balance in there.

Speaker 1: 13:43

And if I'm listening to this in the middle of the struggle, I'm thinking there's no way out, there's no solution. If I come close, she's not safe. If I go away, she's not safe. What can I do?

Speaker 2: 13:56

Yeah, and this is where it's like super important that we are grounded in our own being no-transcript acceptance or rejection then that's probably not a great place to be, because there's some days where she's doing the best that she can and she's able to receive us, and there's other days where she's doing the best that she can and it's not safe and she's not able to receive us. And so if we know, okay, I'm doing the very best I can and I'm finding this balancing point of not too aggressive and not too avoidant, then I can stand with confidence that I've done well and I don't need her feedback to tell me I'm doing great or I'm failing or anything like that. It's not about me in that moment, it's about she's taking what she needs and it's not safe for her right now.

Speaker 1: 14:58

This is so helpful. I hear you saying that we need to be grounded and we need to be confident, which is really the opposite of being flooded with shame. So what would you say is the key to overcoming shame?

Speaker 2: 15:12

Knowing your true identity. So much more there. But over and over again it's becoming more and more clear to me the guys who do this well are grounded in their true identity. And Drew, I mean that's one of the reasons why I love the tagline of husband material. I mean, say it for me. I'm not going to, I'm going to butcher it if I say it.

Speaker 1: 15:35

You are God's beloved son and you, he is well-pleased.

Speaker 2: 15:39

You are reminding people every time that that is their true identity. Yeah, and when we start from that place, we can accept the rejection of a wife, because somebody even more important than our wife has already spoken into us.

Speaker 1: 15:54

Let's go.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Right. So, like there's, there's so much more and there can be numerous, numerous podcasts on this topic, but to me, that is the most important thing for being able to empathize with our wives.

Speaker 1: 16:12

Starts with being rooted and grounded in your true identity. And then how do you speak to your wife when she is drowning in the pool of nasty?

Speaker 2: 16:27

Carefully so with caution.

Speaker 2: 16:33

Another principle that I don't necessarily have good words for, but I have a good image of, is in these moments when your wife is struggling, or maybe she's angry at you and you're scared, and maybe you're rallying your courage to approach her, knowing, okay, we need to have a hard conversation. The image I have is who gets the spotlight or who gets the emotional energy or the emotional focus. Is it going to be on her or is it going to be on him? And so those moments when she is really, really struggling, the emotional energy needs to go on her. When it turns to him, that's when you know she will say you're getting defensive or you're reverting back to your eight-year-old self, like he goes to self-pity or he goes defensive, in essence, what his internal being is like.

Speaker 2: 17:30

What about me? I matter too. I'm doing all this work, aren't I good honey? And she's sitting here going wait a minute. This started with my pain, my hurt, and now you're talking about how you're doing all of these things. It's more about you proving yourself than it is about me and how I'm bleeding out right now. And so who gets the emotional energy, who gets the emotional focus, needs to be about her in those crisis moments. Another thing that came to mind bernie brown's book atlas of the heart puts well the notion of shame that you just brought up and what she says there is you cannot both experience shame and empathy at the same time, because shame is a self-centered emotion and empathy is a other-centered emotion, and so they can't coexist, which is another reason why, guys, you got to take care of your shame. You got to be grounded in who God says you are. That frees us from that shame and that allows us to focus on our wife.

Speaker 1: 18:36

That's so beautiful and it's also easier said than done. Oh right, I mean, it's so easy to know these concepts and to read books about them, but then, when you get into the arena, it gets real.

Speaker 2: 18:48

I love where you're going. I mean you talk about arena or sports metaphor or whatnot. A lot of the guys I work with they need to actually treat it more like an arena. No athlete goes to the big game, performs and maybe they don't perform to their best ability and then they wait till the next performance to show up and try again. No Athletes go over the game film. They critique every little nuance. They're looking for ways to improve. They're looking for ways to get better. You know they're evaluating. They're slowing the game down in practice so that they're able to work on small little things.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Now if we would take the same intensity and the same discipline that we have with sports or our golf swing or whatever, and apply it to our relationship with our wife game changer, right. So next time you go into a fight and you say the wrong thing and you shove your foot in your mouth and you're ice cold for three days, go to work on yourself. Look at the game footage, study yourself to go okay, where did I get it wrong? What should I have said? I'm going to practice six different things that I could have said when she said that thing to me so that it didn't spiral. I'm going to practice keeping the focus on her. I'm going to practice what things I need to hold in the back of my mind mentally so that I don't spin out and get defensive. Like practice these things when you're not in game time situation so that when you do get into game time situation it flows.

Speaker 1: 20:27

Oh, it's so good, it's so true. Practicing empathy, not just trying to perform when it's game time yeah, this is something we do a lot at Husband Material with each other in our groups, in our community.

Speaker 2: 20:41

Yes, that's my next point, and I know you, drew, and I know your stuff, which is why I like you so much, but so many times traditional men's groups, traditional accountability groups, are kind of focused on the wrong thing. They're focused on behavior modification, and the best groups that I see are ones that do just like what you say when they see the group as the practice field for intimacy, for empathy, for being honest, like that's when they're the most effective, because that's the most difficult thing for us to really learn and you have to experience it. It can't be cognitive knowledge, it needs to be like whole being experience in order to get that stuff to take place.

Speaker 1: 21:24

Man, I totally agree with you. What a powerful reframe to see our recovery groups not as separate from learning empathy and relating to our wives if we're married, but really as the training ground. Yes, nathaniel, you had another word picture that you shared with me, which I loved, that had to do with the boogeyman, and I found that to be so helpful for this practicing of empathy and curiosity and compassion. Could you?

Speaker 2: 21:58

say more about that Boy. I think the last time I really explained it was with you. Normally I pull the boogeyman metaphor out when I have a fellow who has a blocking belief. So a blocking belief is one of those things that is kind of like unchecked assumption that we have about ourselves. So many guys say I just I'm not good at empathy, I can't do empathy, I don't know how, and so this metaphor really challenges that blocking belief to say, actually, I think you do know how to do empathy.

Speaker 2: 22:32

The boogeyman is not real, but you're like, of course, know how to do empathy. The boogeyman is not real, but you're like, of course, yes, I know that. But picture when you have your three or four-year-old daughter and she has a night terror and three o'clock in the morning she yells Daddy, I have a boogeyman in your closet and you stumbling because she woke you up from a dead sleep. You know, hitting your foot on the door, you race into her room and she's in tears. Now, in that moment you, as a good father, intuitively know what to do. At that point you don't eject into your brain right, Explain like honey. There's no scientific evidence that a boogeyman has ever been. In fact, they set up monitors across 50 different, like you do not do the science here, no, you address the only real thing in the room. Now, granted, you may give a cursory look inside the closet Nope, no boogeyman. But where do you spend all of your energy? The only real thing in the room is your daughter's big emotions. And so what do you do? You sit down on your bed, you scoop her up in the arms and then you start narrating her reality. Oh, baby, this is so hard for you. I hate it. When you wake up and it's so scary, you know, you see the shadows on the wall and you hear the tapping of the glass with the wind. Oh, that is very scary. And you wake up and your heart is racing and you have that bad dream. Oh honey, I'm here with you now. I'm here, I got. You See, at no point do you say stop, Don't do that. No, you narrate her reality as if it's real. Now, if we take that principle and then apply it to our wives when they're saying I'm triggered because you were home 30 minutes late and I didn't know what you were doing, so many times we try to argue logic there's no way I could have done anything in 30 minutes. You're crazy. Don't think that, and what we need to do is go to her emotions. Oh honey, that is so scary for you. Based on what I've done before, based on the history, it makes all the sense in the world why you shut down. You couldn't think you were scared. You're angry at me now. Oh honey, I hate that. I did that to you again. I should have called, I should have texted, and because I didn't, it put you in this panic state.

Speaker 2: 25:09

There's empathy when we simply narrate their reality. A different word around this is validation and validation. You do not need to agree with somebody in order to validate them. That's the myth that most guys get wrong is they think they have to agree in order to validate. But I hope I've just shown you don't have to agree that there is a boogeyman. You don't have to agree with your wife that you were doing something wrong, that there is a boogeyman. You don't have to agree with your wife that you were doing something wrong. All you have to do is state their reality.

Speaker 2: 25:40

For the guy that has the blocking belief of I can't do empathy, I believe we are wired for empathy, Like God makes us as relational beings, and we are intuitively hardwired in order to empathize. Now here's my proof America's Funniest Home Videos Right. When was the last time you watched AFV? And during the show, at some point there's some guy who's skateboarding and falls off the ramp and lands on the pole Some pool ball that's getting him hit right there. And if you're watching the show, you have this visceral reaction. When anybody gets crunched, you protect, right. You're like oh yeah, that's empathy, that is empathy. We are hardwired to empathize with other people, but then later in life we start shutting it down because it doesn't feel good. It's hard to actually empathize with anybody else, so we self-protect. I don't want to feel that, so I try to distance myself from that. Remember that distance. That's the hardest thing in the whole equation. We need to draw close to it.

Speaker 1: 26:49

We need to jump into the pool of nasty, not because she's nasty, but because what she's going through is really nasty oh my goodness, yeah, yeah, and we're the ones that created it for him, yeah so in order to provide safety in a marriage relationship, sobriety is not enough. We can't do it just through staying away from porn or similar behaviors. We need to go beyond that. What does it look like to get to that next level of actually addressing your wife's heart?

Speaker 2: 27:31

I have two diagrams here. So anytime I'm doing couples work, there are three entities at play. Right, there is him, there is her and there is them. And when we are solely focused on our behavior, on his behavior, that's isolated, that's apart from her or her healing process and that's actually even apart from them. His sobriety is distinct from all of that. And so when a guy just points to his work, saying that that should be enough, it's really misguided. It's a start, don't get me wrong, but oftentimes it's not enough, and here's why Most fellas have lied about their behavior. And so her logic is sound when she says, like, well, he says he's not doing anything now, which is exactly what he said before. And so why would I trust him now when before I trusted him and he broke my heart? So, like, your behaviors are not going to be trusted because your wife is smart and she learns from history. Now you, you may be different. Now you may be doing so much better in life and in your work, and that is awesome and there's more, okay. So a couple different things.

Speaker 2: 28:52

There's a distinction between sobriety and integrity. There's a distinction between behaviors versus character, and you know, anybody who's been around husband material enough knows this type of language. I may be languaging it just a little bit different than y'all do, but it's the same principles at line. This only gets you so far in life Sobriety and behaviors, behavior modification only gets you so far, and that's what can't be trusted. And so what our wives really want do? They want integrity and they want character. Okay, now, how do you know if somebody is living in integrity or character, except for by the behavior, which gets us into kind of the cyclical mental place Like how do I prove it except through behaviors? You got a point there. But here's the thing when a guy is focusing on sexual integrity and focus solely on sobriety and behaviors, that's the only place his work shows up in is if he is living sober. When a guy holistically jumps in to this work, his recovery work shows up everywhere in life because it's impacting who he is, at his very core, being his heart, and because that's who he is, it carries with him wherever he is, and so he has patience, not just with his wife, but he has patience with the food server who got his order wrong. That is evidence of good recovery work. A couple more things along these lines now that you got me going, drew.

Speaker 2: 30:31

Most wives do not want perfection. They do want you to live in perfection with regard to, like primary areas, don't blow up life. But most wives don't want perfection why? But most wives don't want perfection why? Because there is only one perfect person and you ain't him, you are not Jesus. And so if you claim perfection, your wife will know wait a minute, this isn't safe. Only Jesus is perfect. My husband's not Jesus, so he's lying to me, right?

Speaker 2: 30:57

Most wives don't want perfection. What they do want is they want self-awareness. What they do want is they want self-awareness. They want you to know yourself and share yourself. And so, counterintuitively, how you build trust isn't by being perfect. How you gain trust is by communicating to your wife on the front end the way you've let yourself down to your wife on the front end, the way you've let yourself down, the way you've failed yourself. Like when you come and you confess to her, it may hurt a little bit, but most wives are able to say like wow, he never would have told me that before. He would have kept hiding. Things would have been off for a week, a month, and now he's coming to me and he's telling me I might be able to trust that.

Speaker 1: 31:44

And now he's coming to me and he's telling me I might be able to trust that that's true.

Speaker 2: 31:50

Another piece of it is also sharing in our healing and growth Something that I was that we partner.

Speaker 1: 31:53

Yeah, that's something I was recently convicted of that we also need to share the healing and the good things too, right?

Speaker 2: 32:07

Totally so. If you're processing with your guys and you're getting a lot out of it, if you don't share that with your wife, there's a good chance your wife is going to be jealous because in her mind she's going wow, you can do it with them, you can have intimacy with them. I'm your wife. What about me? Come on, man, Right. So there's that distance again. You're choosing intimacy with other guys, which is good. It's the practice field. Bring it on home and do it in game time situations.

Speaker 1: 32:41

Bring it on home and do it in game time situations. Yes, oh, that's awesome. So there are these three areas of recovery, these three healings him, her and them and if we only focus on our own behavior or our own recovery, we're really just addressing one third of that triangle.

Speaker 2: 33:01

Well said, and so part of what I'm trying to articulate with this whole distinction between sobriety and integrity is we need to do our work in a way that offers it to our wife so they can observe it, and that can help them and her heal Set a different way. Think back to third grade long division. When you first learned how to do long division, you could turn a paper into your teacher, get every answer right and get a big fat zero. Why? Because you didn't show your work right. Some guys are doing all the work they're supposed to be doing, but they're not doing it in a way where their wife can observe it, and so in her economy that counts as nothing, because I can't see why you're doing what you're doing. So that's a really, really important dynamic for him to have locked and loaded. Now there's another dynamic here that plays into this. It's when a guy a really, really important dynamic for him to have locked and loaded. Now there's another dynamic here that plays into this. It's when a guy usually really, really well-intentioned, he's doing excellent work, but the emotional energy is more about him doing his work than about her and her process of receiving that work.

Speaker 2: 34:22

All right, and so how I language. It is this we don't want to win her back, we want to build trust. Okay, so we want to earn her trust when we win. What do you do when you win a trophy? You get the trophy and you put it on the shelf and it grows dust. That's what her fear is. He's doing all this stuff to get me back in his good graces, to get us back together again, and is all that good stuff going to disappear once I am back? And so integrity isn't just like. I do this so that I get this Integrity is I do the right thing because it's the right thing, regardless of the reaction from anybody else, even my wife. So that's earning trust is. This is what it means for me to live in integrity. And, honey, if you accept it, awesome. If you reject it, ooh, that sucks. And I'm doing it anyway because it's the right thing to do.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Even if you apply everything you're learning in this episode really well, that's not some kind of entitlement, or Not a causal thing.

Speaker 2: 35:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:29

Yeah, we can't control the outcome. We can control what we are choosing to do, regardless of the outcome. Keep doing it.

Speaker 2: 35:39

Sometimes, when I have this conversation with a fella, they get really discouraged because they're like I've been doing it and I've been doing it and I've been doing it, and what about me? Like I need some support, I need some affirmation. And what I would say is, yes, we want to give our wife the right of first refusal to speak into our lives. So we want to go to her first to affirm us, to encourage us to partner with us. But sometimes she doesn't have it. Sometimes she's exhausted, sometimes she's in pain, sometimes we don't feel safe. Sometimes the kids are driving her nuts right. There's all kinds of reasons, because she's a human being, why she may not have it. There's all kinds of reasons, because she's a human being, why she may not have it. So we offer our wives the right of first refusal. And then, if she says no, what does integrity require of me? Okay, I have this need and I offered my wife to help meet that need. But if she says no, that doesn't mean this need disappears magically.

Speaker 2: 36:40

I don't go into denial about it and I don't go into self-pity. Oh, she never affirms, she never compliments me. No, we have this need, we honor it in ourselves. Where else can I go to be affirmed, back to our guys, back to our community. Hey Bob, I'm feeling really down. Can you just tell me you see how hard I'm working and that you love me? I'm feeling really down. Can you just tell me you see how hard I'm working and that you love me? In fact, I had this conversation numerous times with my friend Jim and it got to the point.

Speaker 2: 37:16

Sometimes you have to train your guys what you need from them, because they don't necessarily know. And I learned the hard way that if I just went into a conversation expecting Jim to read my mind, he might not and we'd hang up the phone and I'd feel devastated. So I got to the place where, at the beginning of the conversation, I would tell him what I need. Hey, jim, I need to blow on you and vomit all over you and at the end of my rant can you just tell me that you love me and you see how hard I'm working. And then I would spend five minutes, I shut my mouth and put my mouth here, and then she said this and I can't believe I did this.

Speaker 2: 37:47

And then I ran away and then I tried to apologize and then, after I got done, I go hey, gussie, I see you, man, keep at it. I know how hard you're working. It's going to work out. I hard you're working, it's gonna work out. I love you. Hang in there. And even though those little words I told him to say when he said them okay, thank you I mean even now I'm like getting a little bit teary-eyed, knowing how much his words mean to me.

Speaker 1: 38:16

Yeah, so beautiful, and the fact that it was scripted doesn't take away from how beautiful or how powerful it was.

Speaker 2: 38:25

No, no, you're just setting the ball on the tee for him to hit. You're just helping him, help you.

Speaker 1: 38:30

It's still a home run. Yeah, that's so good. I hear this balance between depending on our brothers in recovery and also wanting to keep the door open for intimacy with the person we love the most.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Well said.

Speaker 1: 38:46

All of this has been so helpful. Now, as we come to the end of this interview, it's important for us to have some practical takeaways, Like what can we do next? Awesome.

Speaker 2: 39:01

As I hope our audience knows, like it can't just be behaviors, I can't just do it, so I'm just going to, at a risk of beating the dead horse, I'm going to emphasize one more time character and heart posture before I give an actual strategy. Have this trust stool that has three legs to it and then there's tie rods here, so anybody knows how stool works got to have all three operating at the same time in order for the thing to stand up. So when our wife approaches us with pain, with confrontation, with that sacred moment that is her heart, even if it's coming out as venom, what we need is three postures that allow our wives to maybe trust and those three postures that allow our lives to maybe trust. And those three postures are this One, we want ownership. Two, we want humility. And three, we want empathy. Now these are tied together with the tie rods of authenticity. Okay, now that I have the basics, let's go and review, like and draw it out a little bit.

Speaker 2: 40:03

Many guys, by the time they get found out, are pretty good at ownership. Like, yeah, I did that. Unfortunately, sometimes guys, they only accept the behaviors and not the ripple effect of the behavior. If you're standing on the side of a lake and you throw a rock in. Some guys are like, yeah, I threw the rock, I'll own it. But once it left my hand, there are forces beyond my control. There's gravity, there's thermodynamics, but that's not on me. No, full ownership says, yeah, I threw the rock, and because I threw the rock, it had these impacts. So, with our why, yeah, I looked at porn and masturbated and lied to you. And because I did that, you now wake up at three o'clock every morning with a night terror and you're unable to get back to sleep. That's on me. Some guys might blame shift, like, oh, you need to work on your sleep hygiene or something like that. No, no, that's on me. Had I not? You never had any problem sleeping before life blew up. I blew up life and now you're really struggling. That's me. Full ownership, humility Was it Lewis or Chesterton that said?

Speaker 2: 41:13

Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. It's not about me, right? And because it's not about me this is that emotional focus thing. Because it's not about me, I don't need to defend myself, I don't need to go into self-pity, I don't need to be propped up. It's not about me in this moment.

Speaker 2: 41:36

My dad used to say there's a time and place for everything and there's a whole different conversation. And maybe we'll have that conversation about when is it the time for me? But in this moment, when she's struggling, it's not about you. And because it's not about you, then it can be about where your wife is at and then you can go to her. So when we're struggling with shame, it is about us and we're not being humble, we're saying my shame matters more than your pain. And then, when we can deal with our shame grounded in our true identity, that's when we can go and empathize well with our spouse. So there's the heart posture, oh, and the authenticity thing Can't go through the motions. Your wife will smell out a mile away if you're saying the right words and your heart's not in it. So true, all of that together.

Speaker 2: 42:24

She might say maybe I could try to sit on this thing, not saying again, not a causal thing. If I do these things, you have to. No, no, no, no. I want to give her as much control as we can. Okay, so then what does that look like? Rubber, meet the road moment. I want you to V-O-C, validate ownership and give a commitment, something tangible. So we've already been validation. Validation talks about usually starts with it makes sense. It makes sense you're scared. It makes sense you're angry. And then the thing that makes sense is her emotion.

Speaker 1: 43:06

This is where you don't have to agree in order to validate.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Right. Right, so you can disagree with somebody's thoughts and that's fine, like let's agree to disagree, we don't agree to the same thing. But when somebody disagrees with your emotions, like what do you mean? I shouldn't be feeling sad. I am feeling sad Like how dare you tell me what to feel right? And so when you're like trying to talk your wife out of her emotions, it's not going to go well and so instead, like it makes sense, you're scared. And if it doesn't make sense to you, great, explore it. Help me understand what's going on that you are feeling Sad, lonely, scared, angry. So validation Ownership again says I did that and we're taking full ownership in that moment, not partial ownership.

Speaker 2: 43:55

And then commitment when it's appropriate. It's not always appropriate to offer a commitment. I'll come back. If we were to put percentages around a conversation, when you're trying to VOC, about 75% of the conversation needs to be spent validating. A large majority needs to be spent focusing on her emotions, honoring her emotions, coming alongside her emotions, naming her emotions, just being there with it. 15 to 20% is in ownership, which leaves only 5 to 10% in commitment.

Speaker 2: 44:35

Most guys get those exactly backwards. I don't like sitting in emotions. They're really uncomfortable for me, and so I hit the eject button into the commitment. Oh baby, I'll never do that again. I learned my lessons. I see how it becomes about you and what you're going to do to prove yourself, rather than about her. And why doesn't that work? I don't trust you. Why would I believe the words that are coming out of your mouth? You just hurt me. So the commitment needs to be anchored in reality. So most of us guys, when we offer a commitment, like we give the Disney dream of like happily ever after. Oh baby, I'll never do that again. I learned my lesson. We're going to die holding hands in the senior citizen home singing we'll meet again.

Speaker 1: 45:23

It's alarming to me how often that is depicted in movies and storylines and books. It's like the bad guy suddenly turns his life around and then everybody trusts him and he never lies again. That's not how real life works.

Speaker 2: 45:39

Not at all, not at all. And so I'm in the wonder of a struggle with those expectations. When we put, when we take them unevaluated and just assume that's how it's supposed to work, we are setting ourselves up for failure rather than like evaluating. As I said, it can't be that disney dream. It's got to be anchored in reality, and maybe your commitment is like lackluster but doable. That's better.

Speaker 2: 46:05

Honey, I don't know why I didn't text you when I knew I was going to be late from work, but my commitment is I'm going to be journaling about it and talking to my guys about it and figuring it out, because I don't want that to happen to you again. And so tomorrow I'll come to you and if I don't have the answer, I'll let you know. I don't have the answer, but I'll show you the work that I'm doing to get to that answer. She's like, yeah, we'll see. It doesn't have a lot of fanfare around it. But when you come to her tomorrow and go, here's what was going on.

Speaker 2: 46:36

I let myself get distracted and I was focusing more on getting home than I was on you. And so here's what I'm going to do, what I've learned after my journaling and my guys gave me some of their strategies about how to do this. I'm going to set an alarm on my phone and it will be my reminder to either text you or be home, so that way I don't get distracted by my phone's going off blowing up whatever, like hey, that actually feels like tangible, something that can be accomplished, and she can observe that. Here you go, voc. Look for opportunities to do this.

Speaker 1: 47:08

And if you are not watching the video, watch the video to get the notes, to get the visual sense of what Nathaniel is teaching, because it is gold. Nathaniel, thank you so much for all of these really helpful perspectives and tools. This has been amazing. If people want to continue to connect with you and benefit from your work, where should they go?

Speaker 2: 47:35

Tenderheartedmencom. So I have a coaching practice called Tenderhearted Men. That name comes out of my own story of not connecting with my own heart and then, through years of work, coming back in contact with it and so you can go there. The website there are some journal articles that may articulate some of the type of stuff that we talked about today. I also have a workshop called the Know your why Workshop, called the Know your why Workshop, which has a month-long course that's designed to like help you like, step-by-step, day-by-day, get to some of the deeper levels why you're not like overcoming and why you're not reaching out to your wife.

Speaker 1: 48:18

Awesome, so you can look for the links to all of Nathaniel's resources in the show notes. Nathaniel, what is your favorite thing about empathy?

Speaker 2: 48:28

First thing that came to mind was John 10.10. Christ came that you may have life, and life to the fullest. When we're not engaging our emotions or others' emotions, there's part of the full life that is out there that we are not stepping into. I do believe that Jesus wants us to have this full life, and that's part of why he gave himself to it, and so by me not stepping into it, I feel like I'm like not accepting the full gift that he offers.

Speaker 1: 49:01

Man, that full life with all of the emotions is worth it.

Speaker 2: 49:10

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage.

Speaker 1: 49:13

Thank you so much and guys always remember you are God's beloved son In you. He is well-pleased.