Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn.

Speaker 1: 0:37

Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today's episode is all about a new approach to internet filters, which I believe is really innovative and powerful. You are going to learn about it from Kristen and John Wilkes, the founders of Plucky, as well as Scott Wurtz, who is one of my friends, who has had an incredible transformation using this tool and, ultimately, the approach and the mindset which is not fighting a constant battle against yourself, not feeling controlled by somebody else who is monitoring your devices or controlling the passwords, but ultimately empowering you to take responsibility for what you see on your screen.

Speaker 1: 1:32

When I first heard about Plucky, I thought, oh, just another internet filter, just another internet filter, just another porn blocker. But there's actually a philosophy behind it which I found really compelling, and so that's why I wanted to interview Kristen, John and Scott. I think you're going to get a lot out of this episode. If you have felt frustrated and exhausted and you've given up on the idea of trying to make your digital devices safe, this could be a game changer. It could be a way where you thought there was no way. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to Husband Material. Today we are talking about a new approach to internet filters with John and Kristen Wilkes, who are the founders of Plucky, which you can find at pluckyfiltercom, and we're also hanging out with Scott Wurtz, who are the founders of Plucky, which you can find at pluckyfiltercom, and we're also hanging out with Scott Wurtz, who's a friend of mine from college, who has had an amazing experience with Plucky, and we are really excited to talk about all this. Welcome to the show everybody. Thanks, thank you.

Speaker 3: 2:29

Thanks for having us, Drew.

Speaker 1: 2:30

You're welcome. It's great to have a panel of four different voices talking about this really important issue. John, how did you decide to create Plucky?

Speaker 4: 2:40

Plucky was birthed in 2007,. 17 years ago now. Is that right?

Speaker 4: 2:45

Wow with porn and felt like the tools that were available at the time to counteract would seem like a recipe for disaster, which was unlimited porn in everybody's home. It's so easy to get to and all these natural reasons to seek something like that out without any ability to restrict it. I eventually came to the conclusion because I knew how to make something like that I should try to do it. So, thinking of myself as user number one for Plucky, it's designed with me in mind and it's self-control centric design is also a reflection of my own experience. I did not have great experiences with accountability. My experiences were partners wouldn't show up or they'd just be unreliable. No one really wanted to be my accountability partner. During some periods of my life it was like is porn really a problem? But I felt like it was. I didn't really experience growth until I decided I couldn't rely on that and it was up to me, which is something a lot of times you hear people say you don't get free if you're alone, which wasn't my experience. My experience was I needed to accept responsibility for myself and part of that was changing my environment so that it wasn't as easy to get to, and that eventually helped me become free. But my freedom came before Plucky was actually done. But still, when I'm designing it, that's who I'm designing it for.

Speaker 4: 4:21

As I remember Pull, the incredible Pull that Porn had and how. For me it was not like continue forever. It was. There'd be short periods of time when I would have a very strong Pull and I would be highly motivated. But if I had Plucky of today back then, it would have made a huge difference for me in my lived experience, because porn would not have been an option. That's how I decided to create Plucky. It's based on my own experience and, I guess, my sense of calling. I feel like the Lord wants there to be something for those who are crying out and who need help. Too tempting too. It's a problem to have porn so easily accessible.

Speaker 1: 5:03

It is, and I feel like you have created a way where there was no way, in terms of something new and different. Kristen, why is Plucky unique and different? How does it work?

Speaker 2: 5:19

Well, it's a self-control tool. It's like the control panel to your internet. So you get to turn on and off what you want to turn on and off and which parts of which sites you want to turn on and off. So if you want just one subreddit instead of blocking all Reddit, if you want just Google search but no Google images, if you want just your friends on Facebook, so it's really it's, you can fine tune it. So you decide which sites are safe for you, you set the boundaries and then Plucky enforces those boundaries.

Speaker 2: 5:50

But here's the problem. We're talking about those moments of temptation. What does Plucky do in those cases? And there is the second part of it is the delay. But here's the problem. We're talking about those moments of temptation. What does Plucky do in those cases? And there is the second part of it is the delay. So you control your settings, but when you make a settings change, it doesn't take effect until after a delay that you have chosen.

Speaker 2: 6:14

So for some people that's going to be, say, two hours. So then when they have this pull, this temptation, they know that they can't get born for two hours because that change won't take effect for two hours. And then they realize I don't want it in two hours, I want it now. Can't get it now, maybe I'll go read a book or take a walk instead. So it helps you make those decisions in moments of strength rather than in moments of weakness, and giving you that time to kind of have your prefrontal cortex come back online and hear the Holy Spirit and get back into that cool cool thinking rather than the hot thinking. It removes the instant gratification, which is the big pull.

Speaker 1: 7:01

So many guys put somebody else in charge of the settings on their porn blockers or internet filters, which then puts them in a situation where they have to choose. If I'm going to look at porn, am I going to lie to this person about why I need to change my settings and actually setting up even more secrecy, even more excitement, frankly? So I actually really value the way that this delay puts each person's best self in charge, the self who's having a delayed gratification. Yeah, I know, for many men who want to outgrow porn, internet filters, software, porn blockers, have often been a source of frustration and maybe even despair. Scott, what was your experience?

Speaker 3: 7:49

I've used a lot of filters over the years to help me with my struggle with porn and all of them that I tried before plucky had some sort of uh like loophole that I could get around, which really just makes the whole filter useless. Um, because if there's one access point, then unfortunately that's all that I need. I tried probably 10 plus different things and within a few months of trying each one you know I worked for a time but a lot of times there was a loophole where or how I would need to go forward, because my walk in this area is important enough to, or maybe I would have needed to just just like not have a phone, like that might've been where I needed to go, cause if there was nothing. You know, they say like an alcoholic will have a phone, like that might've been where I needed to go, cause if there was nothing. You know, they say like an alcoholic will have a hard time like recovering if he's carrying around, like a you know, a whiskey flask in his pocket. And that's kind of what I was trying to do and, yeah, there wasn't really a tool that that helped me limit it.

Speaker 3: 8:51

So, yeah, it was five years or so I was trying different filters until I found Plucky. It lets me have a smartphone, lets me have a computer safely to where where I don't have access to, you know, to material that that I choose to access in a moment when I actually know in the long run I don't want it. I studied computer science. I'm like a logical, analytical person which has a lot of upsides to it. But, yeah, one of the downsides is like if I get into the place where I want to view porn, yeah, I can just like try to get around. You know, whatever, whatever I set up like days or months or years earlier on my devices, yeah, but plucky solid.

Speaker 1: 9:33

Scott, you talked about loopholes, and that's one of the most common problems I hear with so many internet filters and porn blockers. There's always a way to get around it, there's always a way to circumvent the system, and sometimes that can even turn into a game or a challenge. So, scott and Kristen, what are some of the problems that you find people are often encountering when they're trying to block porn?

Speaker 2: 10:01

If it turns into a game, like you said, it's. There's kind of this this filter is blocking me and I'm gonna it's my adversary now and I'm going to outsmart it. But that's only one part of you that wants to try to outsmart it and there's the other part that doesn't. But if there's a filter that somebody else has set up and made the decisions for you, that can kind of create like an adversarial mindset, and you might even not be trying to get to porn, you're just curious how this thing works and then you find the loophole. So then that, like Scott says, that can make the whole thing useless if you know that there's this portal.

Speaker 1: 10:40

And so often, fighting a battle against the part of myself that wants to use porn is actually the problem, and so, rather than like picking a new battle, we want to try to eliminate the battle. What are some of the other problems that you often see?

Speaker 3: 10:58

You want a heart change, you know you don't want to just like change the behavior. So I think sometimes porn filters can get that maybe bad rap because it's like well, all we're doing is changing the behavior but we're not changing the heart. For me, I found it really helpful to have a filter because I feel like it gives like space for my heart to be changed, cause then I stopped like derailing the process myself of that heart change, cause as I go and view porn it's like like the path that I was on I just like took myself off of it and now I need to like, okay, get back on the path. So I feel like the filter and the heart change for me go hand in hand. So I agree with you.

Speaker 2: 11:37

Yeah, I sometimes think of plucky as like noise canceling headphones, that like, if you think of Odysseus, it's like canceling out the song of the sirens so that you can hear the Holy Spirit's voice. Because if you have this thing that's calling to you all the time, it's hard to focus on the heart change. So this is kind of an image for what Scott just said.

Speaker 1: 11:57

I really do love that analogy. One of the other problems with internet filters is that everyone is so different. There's no one size fits all.

Speaker 4: 12:10

I 100% agree with that.

Speaker 4: 12:12

For a lot of people, what is a stumbling block for them isn't a stumbling block for someone else.

Speaker 4: 12:17

So that's a central tenet of plucky philosophy, which is the end user has to craft their own filter.

Speaker 4: 12:25

Plucky philosophy, which is the end user has to craft their own filter, and some of that grows out of my own experience with accountability relationships and knowing hearing guys tell me they struggled with things that I did not struggle with at all. It's totally foreign to me, but I could hear them saying, yeah, I have this pull to this very kind of to me like strange thing, and that gave me a category for okay, not everything that I struggle with is going to be what everyone else struggles with. Maybe some of the pulls will be the same, Maybe there'll be similar, like temptation drive, but the content that you're looking for might be different. So Plucky is designed to help, to not be too prescriptive, to let people craft it around what material they have a problem with and craft a rule set that will make that harder to get to. You have to make the decisions, not some company. You have to decide that's okay for me or that's not, which some people love and some people don't want.

Speaker 1: 13:20

I love it. I would need that kind of customizability because my sexual fetish for braces means that I don't need traditional porn. I can just go on Google Images, and for a lot of people, if they have a fetish for feet or for just people wearing certain types of clothing, formal porn might not be necessary. Just looking at images on social media can be functional porn, and so using the device pornographically is possible even under the radar of certain tools.

Speaker 4: 14:00

A lot of people really need something strong in those moments of strong temptation. So that's one thing that people really appreciate about Plucky, and the second one is its customizability. And the third one is its radicalness. So it blocks all images Some people call it whitelist mode and then you add in the sites that are safe. Some people are like I've been looking for this for a really long time Finally, something that will block rather than allow. I'm happier with a text-based internet, for the most part because I just feel like I need that. The overall benefit to my life is, I mean, it's better for me to live that way than to have lots of images. But nobody offers that as a product. Because is that going to be acceptable to the market?

Speaker 1: 14:42

On the Plucky website you talk about different types of solutions, and the three main types are getting a special device, getting accountability software and getting a self-control filter. What are the differences?

Speaker 2: 14:55

So the special device would be basically a phone that doesn't have an internet browser. So there's two of those two main ones that we know of. So it's like a smartphone that has it's porn free because you can't access the internet. Accountability is going to be what you talked about, drew, those programs that monitor what you're doing and send a report if there's a red flag. So that is really relationship-based and not necessarily blocking, just reporting. So it can be like a don't get caught mentality In its best form. It would be you're building relationship and you're taking mutual trust and counteracting shame. That's going to be as strong as the relationship is that you have, and also your heart motivation. And then a self-control tool.

Speaker 2: 15:49

Plucky fits in that category and that's where the person wants to decide what they allow and what they block. And there are three main ones of those that we know of, plucky being one of them. I think of all those things like we made a chart of those things, because I think of them as like a toolbox and you wouldn't say, like, which is the best tool, like, is it a hammer or a screwdriver? It's totally what you need it for. And so different people based on who they have in their life or where they are in their recovery journey, or how much internet access do they need for their job. They're going to need a different tool, and so we just really want people to know here are all the tools, because it's way more important to find the tool that works for you at the time and on your devices, because then there's like, all the different platforms too, and there's iPhones, which are really hard to filter.

Speaker 4: 16:44

Some people try to use accountability software alongside Plucky, and you can do it. There's no reason you can't. But it surprises me because the mentality behind a self-control setup and the mentality behind an accountability setup to me is pretty different. In an accountability setup, it seems like to me what I would encourage is the idea you're not alone, so you're not doing anything alone on your computer. Someone's there kind of like observing you and that keeps you, maybe, from visiting certain sites.

Speaker 4: 17:16

A self-control setup it all falls on you. It's like there's no one else who's going to make this decision for you. It's you. You're not going to put this decision or the responsibility for this on someone else. When people try to combine the two, what that tells me is their person's really struggling because it means their accountability setup's not really working for them, because usually the filters that come with accountability are much softer, because they don't need to be as strong, because the incentive is not blocking access to the image, it's keeping the person holding the person accountable. But if someone's in that setup and they're still going to those sites and they want to get a filter at the same time, it surprises me when someone says they use Plucky, because in my mind, the mental posture is totally. It's almost the opposite. I'm not against the accountability one at all. It just seems like well, if you're going to go to Plucky, why do you use accountability?

Speaker 1: 18:08

Sometimes accountability can feel like the porn police. Yeah, everybody needs to find the right tools. Thank you for putting together a great list of all the available tools that are out there, and you all can find that list in the show notes for this episode.

Speaker 3: 18:25

A lot of filters are built for kids. You know parents controlling their kids, so it's like you said. It's a lot of times the way that it's protected from the user is behind a password. So like, hey person, can you enter my four digit pin so that I can like change my settings? Lucky, like Kristen said, like if you have, you want to allow some website, it's going to take two hours or whatever your delay is to allow it.

Speaker 3: 18:52

But if you want to like restrict something, so like if you have like oh, shoot, like I have access to this website and like that has bad stuff on it. And then you say, hey, block that website. Like that happens instantly because that's like stuff on it. And then you say, hey, block that website. Like that happens instantly because that's like a restrictive change. Before you know you met. You asked me what my experience was with earlier filters. Like there were times where I had access and then I had to have access until I like talked to someone. Uh, but here I like, literally within a second and a half, like I can, I can block it. So that means that instead of needing to be sober minded for like a few minutes or five minutes, however long it takes to contact someone. I just need like to be sober minded for a second and then done.

Speaker 1: 19:40

That's a big difference.

Speaker 2: 19:41

It's you whitelist instead of creating a blacklist, and you can block instantly, but you can't allow instantly. So it's really it's kind of turning everything on its head from a normal filter to be as restrictive as you need it to be. John called it pluck eye when he first created it because of the verse it's better to pluck out your eye than to if it's causing it's better to pluck out your eye than to if it's causing you to lust. Pluck out your eye because it's better to do that than to be thrown into hell, which is like living with temptation is hell, and so if you are willing to live with a super restricted internet, pluck Eye is what will let you do that. We ended up changing the name a couple of years ago because people were like, can I not label myself a porn addict? And so we changed it to Plucky, which has the grit and determination in the face of adversity, which is what people who use it also have. So it has a double meaning.

Speaker 4: 20:40

And we always pronounce it Plucky, even when it was spelled plucky.

Speaker 2: 20:43

But nobody understood that.

Speaker 4: 20:47

I should also clarify that plucky is a general purpose tool, so some people use it for other kinds of addiction besides porn maybe gaming or social media or things like that. It's not really the main design criteria for Plucky. Porn really was the history and the reason it exists, but part of the rename is also somewhat reflective of that. The world's actually a little bit shifted, in my opinion, since when I first thought about Plucky. But just in general, tech addiction and addiction to the internet is a bigger thing than it used to be. So that is also part of the rename. But porn is really historically the reason it exists Porn addiction.

Speaker 1: 21:32

Scott, how has the plucky approach personally helped you?

Speaker 3: 21:37

Yeah, I mean foundationally. It means that I can have a phone and computer and not have access to porn. Have a phone and computer and not have access to porn. And so I guess the fruit of that in my life has been I'm not viewing porn. It helps my faith, helps my relationship with God, it helps my relationship with people. Bucky has helped me to be more human in the sense that I act more like a normal human, the way God designed me to be. It pushes me more towards community and it allows me to do that as well. Um, because, cause, cause, cause, nice Cause.

Speaker 3: 22:15

In those moments of weakness it's like, well, if I have one minute worth of temptation, okay, well, my delay on plucky is longer than a minute. There's like two directions that could take. Like number one, I could go view porn and then for like hours, days after that I'm going to be like kind of like trying to pick up the pieces from that. Or if I have plucky, I have a minute of weakness and then it's like, well, I guess I couldn't get porn during that minute and I'm going to go for a run or like, and then it's like I'm more human. You know, that's, that's the way God wants us to be.

Speaker 1: 22:49

Amen, it's absolutely beautiful, and I think one of the biggest differences that I'm hearing is that the wall actually worked, like the barrier truly prevented you in ways that others haven't, and this is a game changer for the internet. This is a game changer for digital devices, which are going to be part of modern life. So like how cool that this tool did what it was designed to do for you.

Speaker 2: 23:20

And you chose the wall too. I think that's important. You built that wall.

Speaker 4: 23:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:25

And you decided where to put it and what it was going to block out. Good job. Scott, that's empowering too, I think.

Speaker 3: 23:32

Yeah, and man, like John said earlier, he's like if I had this filter back when I was in whatever 2005,. It's like I guess that's me right now. So thank you, thank you, john, for making this.

Speaker 4: 23:47

You're welcome.

Speaker 1: 23:48

John and Kristen. The price of plucky is listed as zero to $15. Why is that?

Speaker 2: 23:55

It is because we don't want a barrier for somebody who wants to get porn out of their life, so we don't want money to be a barrier to that. And practically what that looks like is it's sliding scale based on a person's income, and in developing countries it's free. So in developing countries it's just zero. Any country richer than Greece, you pay between $2 and $15 a month and basically the internet is everywhere, which means porn is everywhere. If you go to a village in East Africa, they have smartphones, so we know what's on those smartphones, and they cannot pay $15 a month to filter that phone. And I think we have somebody using Plucky in Malawi in East Africa, and 15 US dollars a month would be half of his income, so he gets it for free. And people who are in richer countries who are able to subscribe then support that mission of making it available, and about a third of Plucky users are in developing countries, so it's a good chunk of people.

Speaker 1: 25:08

That is so cool. I feel so much alignment with your mission in providing free resources and community to people around the world.

Speaker 2: 25:18

It's everywhere, it needs to be everywhere.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Yeah, that's phenomenal.

Speaker 4: 25:24

Yeah, our desire has been to do that in the name of Jesus. If it weren't for that, I don't think we would do it in exactly the same way. But knowing there are cultures around the world that feel like the Internet is destroying their sexual morals, or who are not Christian destroying their sexual morals or who are not Christian, we want to say Christians care about you and we want to help you protect your family.

Speaker 1: 25:53

For anyone who is trying to choose how to make their life safe from porn, what would you advise?

Speaker 4: 26:02

I would advise people to take advantage of the incredible amount of resources that are available today. It was not always like that. Be in husband material, join the groups, connect with people. There's so many resources to help you. I mean, if someone's looking for a technology personally I'm biased I think Plucky is great. I'd say try Plucky. It's free for first 30 days. It doesn't require credit card information. Just try it. It can make a big difference if you're willing to put the effort in.

Speaker 1: 26:33

Because you are the one who will be building this wall. You make the choices Exactly. You are in the driver's seat with this tool.

Speaker 3: 26:40

Yeah, there's a lot of tools out there. Yeah, there's a lot, of, a lot of tools out there and somehow my, uh, my freshman year ra from whedon college, he, he, check out, check out the thing that he made. That's me, by the way, drew.

Speaker 2: 26:55

But you know what's my advice like it's worth it to find what works for you tools can be a vehicle by which God brings freedom, tools that are designed for adults, and here's a list of 200 other filters and monitors and that's interactive, so you can type in what you're looking for and what your device is, and it can help you kind of sort through, because it each company is just kind of telling you about their own tool, and so, instead of everybody having to do all that research, we wanted to just kind of lay out the field for people, because if one doesn't work for you, it's not necessarily your fault. Hopeless Well, I'm just screwed. Now Keep trying.

Speaker 1: 27:54

So go to pluckyfiltercom See what's available. Don't give up. Try something new. Scott, john and Kristen, what's your favorite thing about freedom from porn?

Speaker 4: 28:07

Freedom part.

Speaker 1: 28:11

Out of those three words, yes, that one is the best.

Speaker 4: 28:14

I like what Scott said earlier about being human. It's totally true that porn in a vicious cycle can cut you off from community, make you stick you in shame. It's like dragging a weight around it drags you down. I think the freedom to not feel that shame is my favorite part.

Speaker 3: 28:35

There's so many things that porn destroys and life is better without porn. I think for me, it's the relational aspect, the heart change is the thing that we want, you know, like we don't want to just change behavior, and I think that comes through relationships with people, relationships with God, and, yeah, I feel like when I'm not using porn, that it frees me up to you know, to press into that.

Speaker 2: 29:02

Yeah, I like to talk theologically for a minute. I think porn is like one of the biggest tools of the enemy, because God created male and female to image him together and sexuality is like the epitome of that, and so that's why the enemy just goes after it like crazy. And so being able to, to see the better story of male and female in relationship and how that images the Trinity and a lot of theology of the body, things have just made sense to me. Even having grown up in the church, I have not had that better story told to me, and so just having my mind, my imagination, rekindled with what's actually true, rather than all the lies that porn tells and all the lies that the enemy tells you when you're stuck in porn, it's just the truth, the way, the truth and the life, it's all the same thing. The way is the truth is the life.

Speaker 1: 30:05

Amen, Kristen, John and Scott. Thank you so much, Pleasure.

Speaker 2: 30:10

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 30:12

Thank you, Drew. It's great to be with you.

Speaker 1: 30:15

Likewise, I'm excited for more people to learn about this. So go to pluckyfiltercom to learn more and always remember you are God's beloved son. In you he is well-pleased.