Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today, rich and Deanna Millentry are telling us their amazing story of healing as a couple, as Rich found freedom from porn and Deanna actually has this really unique story of being a part of Rich's freedom as well, and you'll hear so much more about that. These are delightful people who are available to help you both individually and in your relationship towards outgrowing porn, and they have created something called the Confident Husband Mastermind and they're giving away a spot in that program to someone in our community. So check out the giveaway at husbandmaterialco. If you come into our community, they're giving away a few different resources this week. Ultimately, this episode is full of hope. Enjoy it. Welcome to Husband Material. Today we have Rich and Deanna Millentry, founders of Growing in Marriage. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 3: 1:43

Thank you, Great to be here actually.

Speaker 1: 1:46

It's fantastic man.

Speaker 3: 1:48

Yeah, yeah, I'm so looking forward to this.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Me too. You two are very different people and, yeah, you have a great marriage. So what are some of those differences?

Speaker 2: 2:02

Well stating the obvious.

Speaker 3: 2:04

Stating the obvious.

Speaker 2: 2:08

Oh, my goodness yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:10

I am a black man married to a gorgeous ginger white woman. Yes, and that's just where our differences start.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Yes, that's the most insignificant one.

Speaker 3: 2:24

It really is Exactly yes.

Speaker 2: 2:26

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:28

I think one of the things that makes us truly different I'm going to say this from my perspective as a husband who has gone through this journey of learning to trust God and to overcome pornography is I have a wife who I have never met, another wife like this before, who demonstrated her loyalty and her love and her commitment to me in a tangible way that just doesn't make any sense at all, but it is a love, that one I didn't know existed, a level of commitment that I didn't know existed, and I'm eternally grateful for that difference, that differentiator in her and in us.

Speaker 2: 3:23

I can't even follow that up. What do I say? The stereotypical guy's way of doing things and you know the different personalities of I'm definitely the guy in the relationship 's the filler I'm, the more like okay, let's get it done, tell me how I can fix it and I'll fix it, kind of thing. Um, I'm a verbal processor which drives him crazy. Some of the things just some of the things. My happy place is going fast yeah, okay whether that be on the freeway.

Speaker 3: 3:54

Or a motorcycle On a motorcycle, a jet ski a snowmobile, whatever it is Taking corners that say 25 miles per hour max and Deanna's doing 50.

Speaker 2: 4:04

I'm like, what are you doing? That's just a suggestion, yeah.

Speaker 3: 4:06

And me I want to be in. My favorite season is winter. Give me the cold weather I want to breathe in. Cold. It freezes that inner layer of my lung before it quickly defrosts. That's what I love. And I want to be in a lodge with just a great cup of coffee or a beautiful glass of wine watching the snow fall and my wife is out there playing it and having the time of her life and we're waving at each other.

Speaker 2: 4:34

Yes, and I prefer the spring or fall weather and Maui over the slopes, but yeah, yes, and Richie, you just like a good book.

Speaker 3: 4:45

Yes, yes. Okay, give me a good book to go with that. Yes.

Speaker 2: 4:49

But the kind of book he likes is like nonfiction.

Speaker 3: 4:52

That's the best kind of book there is Drew. What other book is there?

Speaker 2: 4:58

come on and I'm more into the um, the vampires and the werewolves, that kind of thing yeah, I'm like come on, you're wasting your time all day long amazing, no, no yeah, so we have many differences. There's not a lot of things that we actually have that are similar.

Speaker 3: 5:16

Yeah, which is wonderful.

Speaker 2: 5:17

Which is wonderful, because that's why we can appreciate each other. It's like OK, I may not understand that, but I love you, so I want to go along with it.

Speaker 3: 5:27

So even the. You know all the research tells us. You know people say, oh, you know, opposites attract, opposites attract. But really all the research tells us that that is absolutely not true. What makes a couple attract are their core values. When this is vetted out in the relationship, those things that drew you together at first like oh I love how my person they always were chewing bubble gum and they smell like bubble gum all the time. And you get five years into that marriage and you're like if you pop one more bubble I'm going to slap the.

Speaker 2: 5:56

You know what out of you right? You just can't stand it anymore. I'm going to throat punch you.

Speaker 3: 6:01

Or you know, I just love how you make these little sounds when you're eating and it's like you know what I'm going in the other room to eat. You sound like a cow, like those opposites. They don't keep you together. It's your core values that do.

Speaker 2: 6:15

Right, being able to be in a place where it's like, okay, he's different from me. We are not the same.

Speaker 3: 6:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:22

But I can appreciate the differences. Instead of using that as a point of contention because that was a lot of the very first years of our marriage and stuff it's like, no, I want, this is not the right way to do it, you need to do it my way. But to be able to learn that, okay, he's different from me, I wouldn't want to be married to someone like me. I mean, I would have a cleaner house, that would be wonderful, but it is what it is. So, being able to appreciate our differences and knowing that I'm more of a task oriented person and he's more relational, and seeing how that plays out with our kids and in our ministry and everything too, you know, just knowing that, okay, we all have our strengths and we have our weaknesses, and to be able to not use it as against each other but to use it for the betterment of our relationship, we're on the same team.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Yeah, awesome.

Speaker 1: 7:14

Y'all have been married for over 28 years.

Speaker 2: 7:17

Yes.

Speaker 1: 7:18

You've ridden the roller coaster with many ups and downs and, specifically for our purposes today, could you share a little bit about your journey and how pornography affected your marriage?

Speaker 3: 7:36

journey and how pornography affected your marriage. Yeah, we could share a lot of that. Well, I'll start, babe.

Speaker 2: 7:40

Sounds good, okay, okay, since I'll jump in wherever I feel I need to. Yeah, yeah, it's our story.

Speaker 3: 7:47

But it started with me, my parents. They had a. They had a really rocky marriage and that's not to cast any shame or throw any shade towards them at all, but it was very rocky and it always my experience because my siblings would have a different experience, but my experience being the firstborn, I always felt like I was walking on eggshells and my mom was a yeller. My dad was disengaged, I'm going to say emotionally, because he was engaged at other levels, but emotionally he was very disengaged and was a hands-off dad as well. So there wasn't that time of bonding over things or anything like that. But one day at summer break and of course during summertime, us kids there was three of us were home all alone. Our parents worked and of course you get into everything when you're home all alone.

Speaker 3: 8:54

And this one day I happened to feel under my parents' mattress and I saw and felt something that was. It was paper, it was. I was like oh, what's that? And I pull it out and it is a penthouse magazine and on the cover of this penthouse magazine was Vanessa Williams. She had just won the Miss America and this was a big deal in the African-American community and the Black community because she was the first Black woman to win this particular pageant. So pulled that out and took my first look and you can imagine what my little eight-year-old brain did with all of that information Like it was instant heroin and crack and all of it put together. So when we started dating Deanna, it was my birthday and I had moved out. I was 17 at the time, going almost 18. And Deanna asked, asked like hey, what would you like for your birthday this year? And I thought, oh, I would love this poster because it just came. Yeah, I don't think I knew that.

Speaker 2: 10:07

And in this magazine there was these sisters who were in the magazine and they were featured.

Speaker 3: 10:23

And I told Deanna I was like I want a poster of these sisters. And she's like okay, and she bought me a poster. Of course, these sisters were all naked and I put it above my headboard and I was like this is what manhood is all about.

Speaker 2: 10:39

I have arrived and what was I thinking right? It's like what in the world? How did I not know it was an issue? You know how dumb was I.

Speaker 3: 10:50

You just didn't know what. You didn't know right, and quickly found out that, oh, I just can't stop looking at this stuff, like why doesn't it work that way? I don't want to look at it anymore and I shouldn't be looking at it. And I also knew that it was wrong to be looking at to begin with, but I couldn't stop and I hid this secret from Deanna for a while.

Speaker 3: 11:13

And so we were married for three years before we had kids, and in that second to third year, somewhere in there, I really felt like I knew the Lord was dealing with my heart in this particular issue and I was like I don't want to be like this anymore and I want to share with my wife and I want to tell her what's been going on in my life. And so one night, um, I climbed in bed and I shared with her like I have a problem with pornography. And she asked all the questions like what do you mean? You have a problem with pornography? I was like I am addicted to pornography. I like I can't stop looking at it, et cetera.

Speaker 3: 11:52

And we cried, she cried, we cried together, we spooned each other that night in bed and held each other and just we didn't have answers for what to do, because this was again. This was back in 1994. Like, there was not a lot of resources around this, so you were in an ocean all by yourself and, by the way, there's no lifesaver either. So just start swimming and when you get tired, flip over on your back and, let's hope, you can float.

Speaker 2: 12:21

And you don't tell anybody.

Speaker 3: 12:22

Oh, of course not.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 12:24

And so I knew that this thing had affected me so much. It had stolen my joy, it had stolen my hope. It had stolen my joy. It had stolen my hope. It had stolen my emotions. I was the guy and I am now who was super sensitive, Like I can cry at a moment's notice, Like I felt my feelings, and I was that person. But when our son was born Drew, this is the crazy thing when our son was born, I knew that I was like oh, this is going to be such a great day. I had no emotions whatsoever, I had no tears, I had no joy, I was just a zombie and I didn't understand.

Speaker 3: 13:08

Yes, that's a great word for it, babe. I didn't understand why I was this way until later, until we started therapy and we started to peel back some of those layers.

Speaker 2: 13:18

Yeah, Of course, I was devastated. I don't think I even knew at that time what the gravity of the situation was. I mean, I was hurt, I felt betrayed, I felt less than I felt that. You know, how is he even thinking about somebody else? Am I not attractive to him? Does he not want to be with me? That you know? How is he, how is he even thinking about somebody else? You know, am I not attractive to him? Does he not want to be with me? All the all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 13:45

But at the same time in the back of my mind I was like, well, I helped contribute it to it If I was able to get, you know, to buy this thing for him. But I didn't know at the time either. So it was just, it was just a whole lot of stuff, and I felt like we couldn't talk to anybody about it who would understand. I love my husband. Even in that moment, with the extreme hurt and betrayal, I knew that I loved him and I wasn't going to cast him aside, but I didn't want anybody else to be thinking him of that way either. So I was really, really conflicted on that.

Speaker 1: 14:14

Yeah, Sounds like it was one really conflicted on that. Yeah, sounds like it was one massive shame storm for both of you.

Speaker 2: 14:20

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 14:20

Truly, yes, truly, yeah. You don't escape it, right? I mean, it affected my life so much, but the shame was soul crushing and you don't get away from that.

Speaker 1: 14:34

So, as you dealt with this horrible dilemma, what challenges did you face? Deanna, let's start with you this time.

Speaker 2: 14:52

I think number one was how do I proceed? What do I do? How do I rid of that voice? Because one of the crazy things, the funny things and I put those in air quotes about something like this coming to light and your partner being vulnerable with you and sharing things, and you're devastated, but at the same time, it's opening up conversation. And so you feel that you're vulnerable and you're exposed to things and that creates an intimacy. It does.

Speaker 1: 15:21

And.

Speaker 2: 15:21

I'm not talking about a sexual intimacy, but it does. It creates connection with you and so you naturally draw closer to your partner and you want to be sexual with them. But then, feeling guilty and feeling you know the voice is like oh, he's not even thinking about you, he's thinking of somebody else. So that was a constant loop in my head as well, and trying to overcome that and then also having the courage to ask him are you thinking of somebody else whenever you're with me, and I'm curious, I'm wanting to know, like, what were you seeing? I want to know, I want to know everything, but at the same time I don't want to know anything you know. So it was just that was a really like a bipolar experience, almost.

Speaker 3: 16:03

Well, and I think on top of that too, babe, like we really didn't have a way to navigate it Right, there were not any resources we couldn't share openly about your struggle, because if you did, you were sidelined. You were treated as though you were gross, you were dehumanized. You were this, this subhuman of a person. It's like you didn't even bear the image of God anymore, and especially from your brothers and sisters who call themselves Jesus followers as well. But it was so weird that when that came up, it's like ooh, let's distance ourself from this person. It is very much like the leper who has to call out unclean, unclean, and everybody runs away from you because they don't want it to get on them, as if it worked that way. Along with not having any resources, it made it extremely difficult to. So which direction do we go in?

Speaker 3: 16:56

And who can we even talk about this with? And two, who is not going to judge us, who is not going to treat us like we are? We have disqualified ourselves from everything in life. Now and now, all that's left for you is to hope that you get your act right with Jesus, and maybe, maybe. If you do, then you'll barely make it by the skin of your teeth by the time it's all said and done. Right, yeah, right, that's how it felt.

Speaker 1: 17:26

Yeah, that was the major navigation problems that we had I love that language of a navigation problem. It's like you were dropped into this devastated, barren wasteland yes, yes, yes, where you need protection more than ever and you also need connection more than ever.

Speaker 2: 17:48

Right, yes.

Speaker 1: 17:50

But both of those things are deeply compromised.

Speaker 2: 17:54

Totally, absolutely, and Satan likes to that's his wheelhouse Totally, to keep you isolated and keep you in a silo. And even if there is somebody that's wanting to reach out and want to say, hey, I've dealt with that, or whatever you're like, no, I'm ashamed, I'm wearing this scarlet letter or something. So to be able to really find somebody that had journeyed through that was very instrumental.

Speaker 3: 18:18

And even when you do find someone, you don't ever know if it's safe, like is it really safe to be able to talk to this person? Because what would typically happen, what we would find in some instances is that then becomes a way for that person to maybe say, oh well, I'm not as bad as so-and-so you know, rich and Deanna, they're much worse than we are, it's like. So who can we really truly be vulnerable and to share all of the details with, and so forth.

Speaker 2: 18:52

And also having to making sure that we're both okay with the person that we're sharing with. So I want to make sure that whoever I'm sharing with is not thinking negatively about him and they're not on just team Deanna. I also want to make sure that I'm having constructive feedback and calling me out on my thinking and all that stuff too, and the same thing, I want him to feel safe that I'm speaking to somebody that is in his corner and vice versa.

Speaker 1: 19:21

All of this is making me even more grateful for both of you and the ministry that you do Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you, because even now that we have so many more resources, it is rare to find a couple who has been through all of this oh, totally and are able to help both individuals and the couple. Right, that's a triple threat, right?

Speaker 3: 19:50

Yes, One of the things, drew, that I love when couples do come to us. So, generally speaking, the husband will have an issue with pornography and the wife is kind of just left on her own and it's like, ok, let him deal with his issue and then you guys will have this hope of being restored, etc. And you can't pull the yarn ball apart. That way. It doesn't work. And I'm so grateful to have my wife, who is able to speak into that young woman's life or that woman's life and say, hey, here's what's going on.

Speaker 3: 20:28

And I know that you're probably feeling like this and these are the emotions that you're having and, like Deanna alluded to earlier, I just want to grab you and hold you close and at the same time, I hate you and I don't want you to be anywhere near me and I want to make love to you and because I want to feel connected to you, and then in the middle of making love, I break down and cries because I don't, I can't stand you. And why are we in this position? Because you got us here. Having someone to be able to speak to. That is amazing, is amazing, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:01

As you have grown in marriage so much and as you're helping others. What are some of the most important strategies or actions that you recommend?

Speaker 2: 21:17

From my perspective is that I don't know how far into this journey we recognize that I needed to be a safe place for him, but I also had to manage my own stuff too, and so I really had to find somebody that I could speak to, but also to know that it wasn't my pornography was not my problem, but it did affect me because I'm married to him and so I wanted him to be able to share with me his struggles.

Speaker 2: 21:48

I didn't want to know the details, but I wanted to know that, hey, I'm having a hard day today, and in order for him to be able to share that with me, I also had to be in a spot where I was like, ok, god, give me the strength because I need to be able to pray for my husband and to cover him in prayer and, you know, to recommend a little. Hey, you need to go speak with you know, your accountability partner, your buddy, your, you know whatever it was at the time, and because I'm not in a space today to be able to handle that. But I appreciate that you're sharing this with me. I want to know where you're at. You know what's? Where are we at today? How are you feeling? Are you? Are you tempted today? You know what's going on. So I wanted that transparency and that vulnerability, but it also came at a cost where I had to do the work to be able to withstand that and to not crumble every time he did come share things with me.

Speaker 3: 22:39

Yeah, this is always a light bulb moment for a lot of couples. Is that pornography, most likely, high percentage of the time, didn't start after you were married. Right, it started before and that's really helpful to know. For again, generally speaking wives who are like oh, is it because of me, is that I'm not pretty enough or I'm not?

Speaker 2: 23:04

Not giving you enough sex. Exactly Whatever it may be.

Speaker 3: 23:07

Whatever it may be. And the answer is no. This started with your husband way back when he was eight, and he's just brought this thing into your relationship. That literally has nothing to do with you, right? But because you were married and because there is this place of you've now become one, you do have a part in this.

Speaker 3: 23:34

So, like Deanna was saying, to give like all of these lists because I think that's immediately what someone would want to hear Like, just tell me all the things so I can be better and I think, yeah, that's one of the worst things that you can do with someone. If you are not committed to walk alongside that person in their journey, then it's going to be very difficult. And just giving a whole bunch of resources, it just overwhelms a person. And just giving a whole bunch of resources, it just overwhelms a person. But one of the things so Deanna mentioned accountability, which I think is absolutely crucial for someone to have a place of accountability and a couple to have a place of accountability. So for me, we always recommend your spouse cannot and should not be your accountability person.

Speaker 3: 24:19

There's a whole bunch of reasons for that, but for me, I had this great place with my dad. I'm talking about my spiritual dad now. So my spiritual father is the man who came in my life and who really took the place of my biological father and I don't use that term biologically disrespectful, I just want to make a difference, to differentiate the two and he was the man who I am, the man that I am today because of my spiritual father, and he was the kind of person. I love this about him. He accepted me and this is the first time I've really ever felt this in my life. He accepted me, for me, even though I felt like I was just covered in poop and nobody would ever want to get close to me, because I stink, I reek, and every time I come over, oh, of course, richard's coming over. He wants something. These were the thoughts in my head and nobody loved me Nobody. Why would they love me? I'm not good enough. I'm dealing with this particular thing and, of course, I had all this other baggage from family of origin as well.

Speaker 3: 25:27

But he was the kind of man that he could look at you and he did this so many times in my life and he would look at you and he would go down and reach into your heart and he would pull out the diamonds and the gold and say look at this, son, this is who you are, this is what's inside of you, and you'd get a glimpse of yourself and you feel like, for? You'd feel like, wow, somebody sees something good in me, because I don't even see that stuff in me. And then he would put it back down and he'd say, no, go get it. And he wouldn't leave you on your own to go get it. We're going to go get this together. This is a journey that he walked through with me, and showing me how to go get the good things that God had put inside of me was invaluable, was invaluable.

Speaker 1: 26:28

I love some of the specific ways that your spiritual father spoke to you. Could you share one of those moments where you'll never forget his words?

Speaker 3: 26:40

Yeah. So my dad passed away in 2019. And when it was apparent like he was going to lose his battle to pancreatic cancer, my older brother so again, I'm talking about my spiritual family at this point. So my older brother, tommy, was at the hospital. We'd travel back and forth to San Francisco at UCSF to see him all the time and stay with him, spend the night, etc.

Speaker 3: 27:07

But Tommy had enough wherewithal, enough composure to grab dad and film some videos. Hey, mom's birthday is coming up. What would you want to say to her? You're not going to be here, or sis's birthday is coming up, or whatever. And when he was, when he was almost gone and was not able to communicate hardly anymore, he called all of us kids and if we couldn't answer, tommy was there to record a message for us and I wrote this down. So I'll never forget it, like I can ever forget this. But he said, um, he said son, he said I loved you from the very first time that I saw you and that just was. That was our relationship. Like that is. That summarized it all for me that somebody could, um, could, love me, in spite of all of the junk and all of the stuff. That was a summarizing moment, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:17

A huge loss and so much love.

Speaker 3: 28:21

Yes, totally, totally, totally.

Speaker 1: 28:24

And his love met some of those deeper soul level needs that were underneath attachment to porn Right.

Speaker 3: 28:32

That's exactly right, exactly.

Speaker 1: 28:35

Yes, and a lot of times. The specific porn that we've turned to is symbolizing someone who relates in that way, right, yes, it is Right.

Speaker 3: 28:44

Yes, the fantasies that we have, those are breadcrumbs. Back to what does my heart truly really?

Speaker 1: 28:51

desire, yes, yeah yes oh, I love that image of breadcrumbs.

Speaker 3: 28:55

That's so good yeah, I mean, that was the thing that, um, even still so with my, my biological family, that there's still this place of feeling like, oh, I'm just not accepted. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:16

Not good enough.

Speaker 3: 29:17

Not good enough. It hurts, it sucks, but you get to the place too where you mature and you grow and you're like they did the best that they could. They did better than what their parents did, and so I'm grateful and I honor them for that, and I'm so grateful that I am who I am today, partly because of them as well. It doesn't go all to my spiritual father, it goes to them as well. But you really do have to come to a place of maturity to get there before you can recognize something like that.

Speaker 1: 29:51

Yeah, there were many people involved Totally In your healing journey. Yes, in my healing journey it's never just one person, and, of course, god is often using these people to get through to us. Yes, one of the things I find remarkable about your story together is how Deanna was one of those people. A lot of times in marriage, understandably, the wife is not able to be a part of her husband's healing journey, to be a kind of supportive, safe harbor, and there is no shame for those women who are feeling like that is the opposite of what they need. And yet, deanna, it seemed like there was something different for you in this process.

Speaker 2: 30:43

The only thing that I can think of when I think of this question, you know, because people have asked that before too the only thing that it goes back to is really understanding that I'm a sinner as well and I need God's grace. And if I don't have God's grace, where am I? So who am I to? You know? Shame him. Of course it hurt. Of course. It was a long journey. It wasn't just so okay, we'd had a conversation and it's all done, and he never, never, looks at porn again.

Speaker 1: 31:13

I wish that was the case, right.

Speaker 2: 31:15

But just to remember and tell myself over and over again I do things too. I am not perfect and we're struggling through this. We're going to work through this.

Speaker 3: 31:27

For you, babe, to be able to have that mindset though I mean what Drew was saying it really, truly is a gift. Like in our time together and all of the couples that we have walked through with this, not one have we had a wife who had a similar attitude? Right, not one.

Speaker 2: 31:47

I don't know. It's only God, it's only God.

Speaker 3: 31:51

Yeah, I mean because all of this stuff, drew, it exposes this falsehood and we talk about this with our couples in the wife okay, generally speaking, again in the wife that it's oh well, I thought this would be a happily ever after and you're supposed to support and to prop me up and make me feel good about myself and all of the things that come along with that. It's like, okay, hang on. Your identity is found in Christ Jesus, first and foremost. Right, and if this situation, at its very least, is going to be used to expose some of those areas where you're not leaning on Christ Jesus, you haven't found your identity in him. You are still working things out, which there is nothing wrong with any of those things.

Speaker 3: 32:43

Right. But this brings it front and center.

Speaker 2: 33:10

It's like because of the things that I went through as a child and my mom was married and divorced six times, and so I knew that divorce was not an option for us and making sure that, whatever we face, because I knew it wasn't going to be roses I never saw roses growing up, apparently clearly so knowing it was going to be difficult and not knowing what that difficulty was going to be, but it wasn't going to be easy At the end of the day, he's my best friend.

Speaker 2: 33:41

He was my best friend since way back and I knew we were going to hurt each other and I knew that I was going to stick by him and do the hard work because I would rather do life with him than without him, because I also knew that I'm not perfect and I loved him that much. And I'm not saying that somebody that decides, okay, no, I don't want to be with their spouse, that they don't love their spouse I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I think that it's just the resiliency that was, by the grace of God, was given to me as well.

Speaker 1: 34:11

And if your story looks different, that's okay too. Absolutely, 100%, absolutely. This story needs to be told.

Speaker 3: 34:20

I mean that's what we're doing here, Drew.

Speaker 1: 34:25

Right, yes.

Speaker 2: 34:26

And it takes work, though, too. I just want to you know, it wasn't like the very next day. I'm like OK, come share everything with me.

Speaker 2: 34:33

You know that took work for us to get to that point, because I was still, you know, we were young in our marriage. We were young, we were young kids. When we got married, you know, we were in our what. How old were we? We were, I think we're mid twenties, yeah, yeah, 21. Sorry.

Speaker 2: 34:46

And so just learning, you know who am I and, um, who do I put my trust in and who is the person that gives me my identity, because you can easily fall into that trap as well, and there'll be days where it's like, okay, no, this isn't going to work, or you know, but working as not, as in we're going to divorce or anything, but it's just like, okay, this is, this is hard work. What do I do? You know, you don't even think I'm attractive kind of thing, and just playing with that and stuff too. And then also, I don't know if I want to know this, you need, you need to go talk to Josh about this, you know, and Josh is his best friend and his wife is my best friend, being able to to talk to her and stuff too. So really having that core group, that, those people that you do life with.

Speaker 3: 35:28

But I think you know we're talking about. We were married at 21. Like, your brain hasn't even fully developed at 21. Right. So you've got all that to work through too, but the hard work that you're talking about, babe like hearing it now in this one hour podcast or whatever it is is. This is the Instagram version of it.

Speaker 2: 35:47

Yes.

Speaker 3: 35:47

This is like oh, it's all shiny and wonderful.

Speaker 2: 35:49

This is the 28 years of work.

Speaker 3: 35:51

Right, yes, let us tell you about the real dirty stuff. And it's like, oh well, shoot, do we really want to go down that road? Am I really going to be committed to this? Right, and you know, it is what it is.

Speaker 1: 36:04

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:09

I think we need to hear some of that dirty stuff to balance out this beautiful picture. Yeah, we can hear some of that dirty stuff, like I remember one time in particular, I did not want to share this with my wife. And there are times where for me and this is true of a lot of gentlemen as well, but for me, when I get stuck in that negative feedback loop and that negative feedback looks like, well, my wife wants me to do something and she says, do it this way. And I can't seem to do that and I can't seem to make her happy. When I try to do something, it doesn't work. What the heck is wrong with me?

Speaker 3: 36:45

And now, wherever I go her to me, her to me, me to her it's always negative. So I'm stuck in this negative loop and it makes me want to withdraw. I get frustrated, I get angry, I get super upset. So what do I want to do? I want to go to my place of comfort. That's the immature thing to do, right? So my place of comfort, of course, is the pornography. It's like oh great, so sharing with my wife and having to, not having to, but choosing to share with her, like hey, I was in the porn dumpster all day today. And she's like what do you mean? And I thought you were doing good. And it's like and I again, we didn't have any tools, so we didn't know to say all the things that we know and say now, and it caused fights and we would withdraw from each other.

Speaker 2: 37:34

It was like a frenzy inside of my mind.

Speaker 3: 37:36

A hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 37:36

Like, okay, what am I not doing right? Am I not giving you enough sex, am I not? Well, you know what am I doing. And so it's all internalized Like okay, no, wait, wait yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:44

And then you wouldn't talk for a week, nine, ten days at a time, right, because you're so frustrated, which leads you back to the porn dumpster all over again, and then you say some nasty things to each other. I remember my wife was dropping me off at work one time and I was irritated because she wasn't giving me what I wanted.

Speaker 2: 38:04

It was probably sex. It was sex.

Speaker 3: 38:09

And she wasn't giving me what I wanted. It was probably sex. It was sex and she wasn't giving me what I wanted. And I'm like I'm trying to not use pornography and you know you're not helping me at all, Like that's her responsibility, right? How stupid I'm putting all the blame on her. And so I get out of the car and I look back at her and I said you know what? You were such a bleepity, bleep. And I slammed the door and went into my job and nobody feels good after something like that and that takes an incredibly long time to repair when you're 22. When you don't have the skill set to even begin to repair what you said. You don't even know what you said or why you said it, but you said it and yeah, it's not fun, it wasn't pretty.

Speaker 1: 38:55

So there is hope, even if you're in that position. Yes, there is Don't give up.

Speaker 3: 39:04

Yes, yes, there is.

Speaker 2: 39:05

It's a journey.

Speaker 3: 39:06

Yes, it takes grit and it takes commitment.

Speaker 1: 39:12

And it often takes professional help. So what role did that play in your journey?

Speaker 3: 39:18

Yeah. So that was a godsend for us, because soon after I told my wife, hey, this is what's going on for me, my dad spiritual dad said okay, you guys need to go get counseling and here's a good counselor for you guys to go see. So what I know? Now, looking back on those experiences with my counselor, there wasn't a lot of stuff that he gave us like, hey, this is how you move forward and this is how you defeated. He gave us like, hey, this is how you move forward and this is how you defeated. But what he gave us was incredibly valuable in the sense that you're not alone, that you're not the only one doing this, you're not disgusting and gross because you do it.

Speaker 3: 39:59

Let's talk about the shame and then let's talk about some of the reasons why people resort to pornography. Why people resort to pornography. But for me and my counselor and Deanna, as we worked through this, one of the big things for me, the giant things for me, was the driver of all of my porn usage. When I feel powerless or I feel like I have lost something or again can't do something, my, that is a trigger and that says, oh, go, get your power back. So whenever Deanna and I would get into an argument.

Speaker 3: 40:34

It could be about anything it could be about anything, but I'll say this too I was only with our counselor maybe three or four weeks.

Speaker 2: 40:42

Yeah, I was with them longer yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:46

And I turned into Deanna Counseling.

Speaker 3: 40:47

We don't know why or how it worked out that way, yeah, yeah. But it did, and his name was Patrick and Patrick said he's like okay, he's like you know what? We're good, I want to spend some time with your wife. I was like aren't we good? Because I know me and I don't feel like I'm good.

Speaker 2: 41:07

I Are we good? Because I know me and I don't feel like I'm good. I don't feel like.

Speaker 3: 41:09

I'm trustworthy. And then I had all the thoughts of like oh, is he telling my wife to leave me? Is he telling my wife that I'm not good enough? Like I had all that spinning in my head too. But the things that I sat with him and experienced with him when I was powerless, that's where I would go. So when Deanna and I would get into a fight, I'm looking at it through the lens of win-loss. You either win the fight or you lose it. How ridiculous. It's never that If you go in with that attitude, you've already lost, no matter what the outcome is. We work to get win-win solutions in marriage and in those difficult times. So whenever Deanna would say to me and point out there's some sin here, or you treated me unkindly here or you did this, it was always oh, there's a loss, there's a loss, there's a loss.

Speaker 2: 41:56

let me go to pornography. I'm bad, I'm not worthy, and all that.

Speaker 3: 42:00

Yeah, because I don't know how to deal with not doing those things.

Speaker 1: 42:11

That helps me see a lot more of why you have created this confident husband mastermind, because when you're in that place of confidence and centeredness in yourself, you have capacity for those feelings and those lies to be processed. That's right processed.

Speaker 3: 42:30

That's right. So we developed Confident Husband Mastermind for husbands in all stages of marriage. But the things that we were addressing. So there's five conversations that we're having in this particular product and the five conversations are around one spiritual leadership, anger, rebuilding, trust, communication and household chores. And these are five big conversations that men, all men, need to hear in their life, especially as they're becoming husbands.

Speaker 2: 43:01

And the wives are like yes, let them hear it.

Speaker 3: 43:03

Right.

Speaker 3: 43:03

Especially that household chores Right Let them hear it Right, especially that household chores Right. But no one ever teaches us and says other men are having this experience and other men have grown past this experience. They've grown up to be mature men and they handle their anger like men now. And that's the conversation that we're having in Confident Husband Mastermind, how do you become a man who is confident instead of a man who is like I just don't know what to do? And then one of the other conversations that we have is one of my favorites is rebuilding trust. And this speaks directly to the man who has violated his wife's trust with porn usage, her emotions she can't trust him with her emotions anymore. She can't trust him with the kids. She can't trust him for keeping his word, all of those things.

Speaker 3: 44:00

And we're walking these husbands and these men through again. This is not in a course like setting, where you're taking notes and you're doing all the things. We're inviting you into a conversation. It's five husbands who are having real conversation about real life things and we have packed all of this good stuff in there why it's important for you to really understand. Number one this is the first step in rebuilding trust.

Speaker 3: 44:25

Number one this is the first step in rebuilding trust. If you do not understand how you have hurt and how you have broken your wife's trust and you're not able to communicate it back to her with her words in a way that makes her feel validated and seen, then you are not ready to move to the next step in rebuilding trust. And when you are able to do that in your relationship man, your wife, her wall comes down. You guys begin to connect on a whole different level in new places, like it's a wonderful thing, and most guys here's what they say Well, I've asked for forgiveness and I've said sorry for like a hundred times. How many more times do I need to do it?

Speaker 2: 45:12

A hundred thousand more. Yes, keep on.

Speaker 3: 45:15

Yes, you're going after the wrong thing. What you're trying to do is to make your wife trust you again, which is never going to work. You need to work on becoming a person who is trustworthy. That will be the thing that changes everything and unlocks everything for you, and all of this is incompetent husband.

Speaker 2: 45:38

And one of the things that I love about the greatest feedback that we've been getting from this is that there's four other guys plus Rich and there's different experience. They have all different life experience, so people can really relate to at least somebody in the group, so that's a great thing too.

Speaker 3: 45:53

Yeah, we have men tell us. I cried when I listened to the anger video and the chores video because I didn't know.

Speaker 2: 46:03

I finally got it, and somebody finally understood me Like it's been.

Speaker 3: 46:07

Somebody finally understood me Like it's that, it's it's been that transformative, yeah so.

Speaker 1: 46:11

So, guys, if you want to learn more about the Confident Husband Mastermind and some of the awesome other tools that Rich and Deanna have created, including the Growing in Marriage podcast, yes. Bible studies for couples. Lots of great stuff. Go down to the show notes, go down to the description, or you can go to growinginmarriagecom.

Speaker 2: 46:35

Just for now thank you so much for being a part of this.

Speaker 1: 46:38

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having us, Deanna and Rich. What do you wish? Someone would have told you earlier in your marriage.

Speaker 2: 46:48

Um, that I'm not alone. I wish that somebody would have reached out sooner and been able to share with me things that they've gone through. There's nothing like feeling that, okay, they get me. So I wish I would have had that sooner.

Speaker 1: 47:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:10

I'm just going to piggyback on what you said, babe, because it makes my eyes a little wet again, because I think about my dad.

Speaker 3: 47:16

Yes, but for someone to accurately portray Jesus to me. Yes, jesus, we tell our couples this all the time. You're in a dark place right now and you're in a hole that is black as night and you can't even see your hand in front of your face, and it stinks, it's disgusting, it's dirty, all the things. But we're going to get right down in that hole with you, because we don't mind getting dirty and stinky and doing all that stuff with you. That's what God has called us to.

Speaker 2: 48:14

Yes, yes.

Speaker 3: 48:15

And I have got to be willing to just take his hand, and I wish somebody would have shared with us that we're going to show and be the real Jesus for you. And we're going to be right there for you guys, no matter what's going on for you. And we did have that. We had that in my spiritual parents, but we had to grow to learn that with them. Now we can share that with our couples straight away.

Speaker 2: 48:45

Yeah, that's one thing I was just sharing with somebody not too long ago, within the last two weeks, that we do the coaching and stuff, and I think that couples get that upfront with us. Is that up front with us? Is that you can tell us anything?

Speaker 2: 48:57

and we're not going to judge you, and I want to be the hands and feet of Jesus. I want to be able to. There might be some things that shock me, but I'm not going to discard you. I'm not going to tell you that you're unworthy, that you're not unredeemable. I'm still going to love you and that's what I think that we need to do.

Speaker 3: 49:22

a better job as the church to be able to do to couples and to individuals, to create that environment, man, sister.

Speaker 1: 49:27

What a story. What a savior who gets into the dirt with us.

Speaker 2: 49:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:33

Oftentimes through each other. Yes, yeah, oftentimes through each other, yes, totally, through friendship, through having spiritual parents, through coaching, through groups. So many ways for us to take Jesus' hand. Yes, as he leads us through the darkness Because that's the only way out is through Right.

Speaker 3: 49:53

It is, you have to go through it. You cannot go around it.

Speaker 1: 49:56

And now for the famous final question yes, rich and Deanna, what is your favorite thing about freedom from porn?

Speaker 2: 50:04

That it's not that bondage. The shame, you know, and I think in this day and age as well, is that we're talking about it more and to be able to share with couples that. It's not an end all. You don't have to stay stuck.

Speaker 3: 50:18

Right.

Speaker 2: 50:19

And you know, we could have just been afraid to tell our story, we could have been afraid to not say anything to anybody, and what a travesty that would be. So really being able to share our story and to know that, even in the dark times and the temptations, god's there with us, and to be able to, we got each other.

Speaker 3: 50:41

Yeah, my favorite thing in this is knowing one that I am known and that I am accepted, that, no matter what happens, god loves me. He demonstrates that to me over and over all the time, and there's nothing that I can do that would ever, ever change that.

Speaker 3: 51:05

It is this weight that's lifted off of my shoulder, that I do not have to perform form, I do not have to do, things to make or get God's approval, that he is good with me just as I am, that he is not going to leave me to a place that is going to destroy me, that he's going to come alongside and say, hey, son, this right here, this road is going to take you to a bad place. Let's start to redirect now and get back on track, turn back towards me, and I love that. It's this place of identity, so me learning who I am. I'm the image bearer of Jesus and I'm becoming more of that every single day, hopefully.

Speaker 3: 51:52

And James Clear in his. He wrote a book, I'm sure, atomic Habits. You've heard of it before. Yeah, so great book, great read.

Speaker 3: 52:01

And in James Clear's book he says all of the habitual changes, the behavior changes, the growth in your life, all of that ultimately comes back to its identity change that's taking place inside of you. So if you think of it this way, you say, hey, well, you know what? I am an Olympic gymnast. Well, what do Olympic gymnasts do? They train, they do all the hard things, they repeat practice, they get up early, they eat. Well, they do all those things because they are a gymnast. I'm a runner Well, I get up and I run, and I do that because I'm a runner, I am God's beloved son and because I am his beloved son, I do the things that please him. I have learned that my identity in who he is doesn't depend upon what the world thinks of me and all the other things that are going on, that I am going to get in that place where my identity is being shored up and changed day by day, and that is the sweet spot for me. That's what I absolutely love, amen.

Speaker 1: 53:15

Yeah, that's what I absolutely love. Amen, amen. And that is exactly why I always end these episodes saying the same thing. Before I say it, guys, don't forget to check out growinginmarriagecom and let's live like this. Truth is who we are, no matter what. It's the very truest thing about us. You are God's beloved son and you, he is well pleased.