Sexual Brokenness Sitting in Dirt

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast , where we help Christian men outgrow porn . Why ? So you can change your brain , heal your heart and save your relationship . My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go . Hey man , thanks for listening to my interview with Jeremy Williamson . What does it really look like to sit in the dirt of sexual brokenness with people , and what do you do if you are triggered or aroused by someone who you are with ? We are going to talk about all those questions today and , if you really enjoy this conversation , I would highly recommend you checking out Jeremy and Chris Bruno's course Sitting in the Dirt , which is the best online course I've taken hands down . It gives you an amazing theology and practical set of tools that you can use to be the kind of person who makes others feel loved , cared for , valued , seen , understood and ultimately creating space for the kind of transformation that brings lasting freedom from porn . Enjoy the episode . Today I'm hanging out with Jeremy Williamson from Restory Counseling Restoration Project . Welcome back to the show .

Speaker 2 1:17

Oh man , drew , I'm delighted to be back here with you , man . This is so good , so good . I've been looking forward to this , so thanks for having me be back here with you man , this is so good , so good .

Speaker 1 1:25

I've been looking forward to this . So thanks for having me . I'm looking forward to it too . Our first episode , which some of you may remember , was Theology of the Penis Really vulnerable , really powerful and today we're talking about something which I believe is equally as important .

Speaker 2 1:40

Mm-hmm .

Speaker 1 1:41

Sitting in the dirt , being able to be fully present with someone and , in our case , in sexual brokenness , in porn addiction . Shame , loneliness , self-contempt , anxiety , anxiety all of these things that we have experienced , and today we're talking about how we show up in the dirt , in the mess . Jeremy , why is this topic so important ?

Speaker 2 2:18

I love the way you said that , drew how we show up . I think it's important for a couple of reasons , I think . First , I want to maybe talk about our ache , or just reference it . I don't think there's much that needs to be said about it .

Speaker 2 2:32

I think the men who are watching this know what I'm talking about when I say that there's something deep inside here that longs for presence and that longs to be with , and it's not surprising to me that Isaiah described Jesus as being God with us . Like that , even God's plan for mankind is to be with us and that what we ache for is to be with people . And so that ache is , I think , why this conversation matters . And I would say because , if withness and presence , if that is God's design for us and him and us and each other , I think we can see how evil has worked against that incessantly , to destroy it and to mar it and to diminish it . Presence and withness and so , while it's something I think we all ache for , it's something that for a lot of us feels maybe just outside of our reach , maybe just past our grasp , and so it's worth talking about .

Speaker 1 3:37

What if I'm trying to help someone who's struggling with porn ?

Speaker 2 3:41

I don't know what to say , or I don't know what to do struggling with porn , I don't know what to say or I don't know what to do . I mean , that's like where we almost , like all of us find ourselves there at some point . Drew , and I should say all of us , will hopefully find ourselves there at some point , because that means that we're pursuing something really , really good . So I think at the beginning , I just want to say , if you are watching this and you have found yourself in a place where you don't know what to say and you don't know what to do , well done , because that means you are having conversations that 99% of people are unwilling to even have . Those are roads that people aren't willing to go down . So great job if you find yourself with no idea what to say .

Speaker 2 4:23

Over and over again whether it's been with people struggling with porn or sexual brokenness , or a couple who's right on the verge of divorce , like , how many times have I found myself not knowing what to say ? And I think , through , my response to that is why do we need to say anything ? Why do we feel the pressure to say anything at all ? I wonder where that comes from inside of us , the need to like oh man , this guy has an issue , how can I fix it , or what scripture do I know , or what maybe counseling jargon can I use , or Christianese ? What can I say to fix this guy or to make us all feel better ? My response to that would be why say anything at all ?

Speaker 1 5:05

My first reaction to that is what Like ? What are you asking me to do here ?

Speaker 2 5:13

Yeah , I love that , drew . Say more about what that feels like for you .

Speaker 1 5:20

It feels to me like words often create some sense of structure or some sense of comfort , giving some kind of meaning .

Speaker 2 5:37

I think what I find is we want to say something really bad , because when someone brings their pain or their struggle like , or their shame , that it creates tension . And when shame comes into the room , we all feel shame . And when there's pain , we all feel the tension of oh my gosh , this person is in pain . Pain we all feel the tension of oh my gosh , this person is in pain . And so , more often than not , when we say something , it is to relieve the tension for both of us and to relieve the discomfort for everyone in the room . And so if there's a word that I can share , it's like this release valve of all the pressure that just built up it like . It's like this release valve of all the pressure that just built up . And so it makes sense why we would do that .

Speaker 2 6:30

It makes sense why that's most of our go-to is to find the right thing to say to relieve the pressure . But what if god is inviting us to sit in the pressure ? What if sitting in the dirt means I'm just gonna be with you in this mess ? That can't be solved . In fact , me trying to move towards solving it might skip past so much richness that exists here in the dark here , in this difficult place . I'm just going to sit with you here where it's hard , intense and shameful difficult , and I'm not going to move on . I'm not going to force us to move on .

Speaker 1 7:06

Wow , that is so rare .

Speaker 2 7:09

Yeah .

Speaker 1 7:09

And yet so refreshing at the same time .

Speaker 2 7:15

There's something , Drew , I agree with that statement because there's something about the way that at least I'll speak to my experience , and specifically in the realm of sexual brokenness . Even early on , I grew up in a church and all of the middle school boys and junior high and high school boys we were kind of forced into these accountability groups , which were basically just sort of confession groups , sort of confession groups , or there was a sort of like hey , you may want to confess your sin to the youth pastor or to someone , and even still , as an adult , there's a sense of like hey , what happens in my church or with my friends if I confess something ? Even that word confess and usually what it means is it goes like this , like , hey , this is what I did , I looked at porn and I masturbated or I acted out or I did this thing and the person listening says , hmm , yeah , thanks for saying that . And then the next phrase out of their mouth is something that relieves the tension that we're all feeling .

Speaker 1 8:16

Yeah .

Speaker 2 8:16

God's grace is so big for you , brother . Or your honesty is going to go a long ways , or freedom is just , you know , right next , let me pray for you , brother .

Speaker 1 8:25

Which are not bad . Things right , they're not bad .

Speaker 2 8:27

They're not and it's not wrong . But the thing is we skip the presence part . Yeah , because sometimes a scripture verse or a prayer , even , or even a kind word , is actually not that kind , because we're using it as a way to sort of hey , you just said this thing that's making us both feel really uncomfortable . I don't know how to be with you in it . So if I pray for you right now or if I say a pithy one-liner , then it's going to relieve the tension and we're going to be able to just like move on . But what is tragic about that to me , drew , is sexual brokenness happens in isolation and it happens to deepen isolation . And in a relationship like that , where I bring the reality of my sexual brokenness to another person and they kind of stiff arm me with advice or prayer or fixing , I continue to be isolated Because no one's actually been with me in the depth of what's going on inside my heart . So it just furthers the cycle .

Speaker 1 9:36

That is so so true , and it reinforces the childhood soil that many of us grew up in . Sexual addiction develops typically in a rigid Sexual addiction develops typically in a rigid disengaged family , in other words , where rules are more important than relationships and people care more about what you do than what's going on in your heart .

Speaker 2 10:01

Wow yeah .

Speaker 1 10:03

And everybody's off in their own world . No one's really coming into your world and fully sitting in the dirt with you , and so I find that a lot of these accountability groups , while they can be helpful in some ways , it's actually reenacting the very environment where our attachment to porn and unwanted sexual behavior developed . So what does it look like to create a different kind of environment If biblical advice and prayer can sometimes be skipping over the most important part ? What's truly helpful ?

Speaker 2 10:42

That is like what I love to call the theology of presence , and it is this idea that when I am simply present with you and attuned to you and by attuned I mean I am seeing as best as I can with the eyes that I have what you see , and feeling as best as I can with the heart that I have what you're feeling . I'm just sitting with you in this .

Speaker 1 11:11

Makes me think that sometimes , by trying to fix each other's problems , we're actually preventing people from experiencing God .

Speaker 2 11:21

It's really well said and I would say a hundred percent yes .

Connection Through Presence and Curiosity

Speaker 1 11:25

I mean , would you rather leave a meeting with somebody feeling like you have some really great strategies , or would you rather feel like you just spent time with Jesus ?

Speaker 2 11:40

I mean , how many times , drew , do we see , like in from the words of scripture but also the examples of the stories that we read about in scripture , where progress is actually the enemy , like when I sit with someone in the dirt , I'm not actually worried about them getting better , I'm not worried about fixing them or that they would walk away from like you just said from this conversation saying , man , I just got like three tips that are going to help me live a better life . How many times do we see , like Jesus saying Martha , like I understand that you're upset because your sister is just sitting here at my feet , but she's doing the better thing . Like it is okay for you , joshua and Moses , to spend ridiculous numbers of hours in the tent of meeting , where you're just enjoying my presence . And sometimes we can walk away from a conversation with a man who's experiencing sexual brokenness and all he felt was our presence , which meant he felt the presence of God , and that's a brilliant thing . That is enough .

Speaker 1 12:44

And you guys go into the theology of presence and a lot of techniques and strategies in the Sitting in the Dirt course of presence and a lot of techniques and strategies in the Sitting in the Dirt course . Just for now , what are some of the practical things we can say or do to be with someone in the middle of their dirt and our dirt ?

Speaker 2 13:00

I'd say , I think , a couple of key words that are worth writing down , worth remembering . The first one is awareness , and awareness . Drew is like you and I at the beginning of this recording , where we , we got in here and I was aware of your energy , I think you're aware of mine , and we were just like , okay , here I am . I see this man , drew , and I'm aware of a lot about you .

Speaker 2 13:26

I'm aware of the books behind you and and , and I've actually been like , oh yeah , I've read that one , I , I know that one , oh , I should read that book and aware of you and your body language , and I've been working in our time together to just attune to your face and to notice what you're saying with words and what you're saying without words . So I'm just aware of you and I think when we come into conversation , when we're actually sitting in the dirt with people , it's being aware that Paul's lips are cracked , it's being aware that his wife's family are 50 feet away from him , wanting nothing to do with him , it's being aware like my attention and my presence and my heart is here , my focus is here . So I think the next word that I'd invite you to remember is curiosity . That comes with something you said just now really well , like hey , I noticed this . Tell me more about that . I noticed that this seems to be the thing that you struggle with often . I wonder why that is .

Speaker 1 14:26

Yes , some of those lines are not formulas , but , man , they can really help . Like , tell me more .

Speaker 2 14:33

Oh yeah .

Speaker 1 14:34

How do you think that is ? How does that affect you ?

Speaker 2 14:40

What's it like for you ? Because and it's so necessary , because for so many of us , we are used to isolation . We're used to people . Not we don't just bring all of those details like and just flop them onto the table . We , we hold them back and we protect them , and for good reason . There are people who are watching this and you don't . Deepest parts of your heart are protected behind a wall , like a thick castle wall , and for good reason . Because you've you've had to learn to protect your heart . And so when you get into conversation with someone , you've had to learn to protect your heart . And so when you get into conversation with someone , you're not just going to be like blah . And so when someone who's aware , and when there's a deeply good man like Drew who leans in with some curiosity , it's almost an invitation for me to unlock the gate a little bit and potentially to crack open the door and let you into some places where not very many people have been able to walk . That's not possible without curiosity .

Speaker 1 15:41

Yeah , curiosity means being a learner , so rather than trying to teach you , I'm trying to learn you . That's such a different posture , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 15:53

So good , but isn't that what we're aching for ? Oh my gosh , I don't know who said that . All of us are coming to the world looking for someone who's looking for us .

Speaker 1 16:03

Yeah , kurt Thompson , talking about attachment , talking about how we are wired for connection , about how we are wired for connection , yeah , precisely , and curiosity , like you teaching me , creates this dynamic where you're the teacher and I'm the student .

Speaker 2 16:20

You being curious with me , about me , wanting to learn me , actually invites me to open up my heart in ways that I long for and rarely experience .

Speaker 1 16:30

Yes , we are co-learners , together developing a connection and a friendship , and oh , that is so different from accountability . I mean , accountability can be a part of that , maybe , like now . On the one hand , there is an aspect of challenging each other in friendship , yet it comes to those who have earned your trust through what we're talking about .

Speaker 2 16:57

And I think you can't get to that place of challenging one another until you've been curious , and I'll explain what I mean . See , accountability is all about keeping you accountable to not sin . So , hey , did you not do that thing ? Did you avoid something when I think that Jesus is way more excited about who we are than he is worried about our sin ? He paid for our sin , it's covered and it is grievous and it is terrible and it is whatever , and it's paid for , but he is so excited about who we are .

Speaker 2 17:34

And I wonder , drew , what if accountability was actually me , having caught a glimpse of the glory of God in you , drew , and the image of God in you , refusing it's me , refusing to partner with a lesser version of that ? Wow , I'm actually going to hold you accountable , drew , to be the image , to embody , the image of God that I've seen inside of you . So I can't even know what that is or what I'm calling you into until I know you , because I don't want to call you into not sin . I don't want that job to be like your . Hey , did you avoid ? You know , avoid masturbating , or avoid acting out , or avoid whatever it is . I want to be the guy who has seen the glory of god and drew and says , um , drew I . That's not who you are . I've seen the glory of god in you and let me keep you accountable . Let me challenge you to be the man that you , that you are , that you're intended by god to be .

Speaker 1 18:33

Jeremy , I feel so empowered and inspired even just hearing you say that . To me it's kind of mind-blowing .

Speaker 2 18:42

I believe with my whole heart that as you embody that man , that your need for acting out , your need for unwanted sexual behavior , the usefulness of those activities is going to start to be diminished . As you embody the man that God has always intended for you to be , that feels like a way better way to be with you in your sexual brokenness than to be like . You know , did you act out ? So yeah , it's just how I want to live .

Speaker 1 19:10

Yeah , we don't want to miss out on what God longs to give us , which is so much more than behavior management .

Speaker 2 19:22

Come on .

Speaker 1 19:23

Okay , Jeremy , here comes a question that might require sitting in the dirt . Okay , let's go so what if you are in a conversation with a friend who's also on this journey of outgrowing porn and during that conversation you feel triggered by him , maybe even sexually attracted to him ? What if that happens ?

Speaker 2 19:53

I would say , if that happens , welcome to being human and , again , well done for actually being with him . Those things will happen when we are with people . You can't be with someone and not feel the effect of being with that person . So I think I want to begin by just saying there's no shame in that . There's no shame in that , and there's no good counselor or therapist or whoever in the world who exists that's actually doing their job . So even the professionals , I would say , who do a good job , feel that . So well done

Sitting in the Dirt Together

Speaker 2 20:32

.

Speaker 2 20:32

And I think what we do with it is is , first off , we're , as we're being aware and curious with the person that we're sitting with , we also need to be aware and curious with ourselves , and so I start to feel triggered , I start to feel aroused , I start to feel attracted . It's good to be aware of that and to be curious about that for yourself . Now , that doesn't mean that it's necessarily helpful to say , drew , I feel really attracted to you right now . So I want to pause . It's my job right now to sort of care for myself and to offer presence to myself while I'm with that person . So I think it starts with being aware and curious about what's going on .

Speaker 1 21:15

Yes , and just like we would be with someone else in their pain . We need to learn how to be with our emotions and our sexual feelings too . Instead of just trying to shut them down or just dwelling on them and fantasizing about them . It's like , okay , I'm feeling this really strongly right now . That's interesting . One helpful little practice might be acknowledging that those feelings are there and then checking in and saying , hey , sexual attraction , I noticed that you're trying to tell me something . I'm talking with Jeremy right now . Yeah , this is really important . Can I come back to you after this conversation ? Would that be okay ? And it kind of almost negotiating with that part of you 100% .

Speaker 2 22:04

No , I agree . Like this we're not going to do that right now . Like this this isn't , this is not the time for that . We're here for true yeah . And I love the way that that conversation sounds , because there's not shame there . It's not like this oh crap , it's all going downhill now . Or , oh crap , now I want to start entertaining fantasy . It is hey , I'm going to acknowledge you and I'm going to be the adult and I'm going to say , hey , we're not going to do that right now , bud . And it's all good , we can talk about this later . I love how you put that , but right now we're here for Drew .

Speaker 1 22:37

Exactly . Another way to say it might be becoming your own primary caregiver . This is a phrase I've drawn from maternal family systems . Dr Richard Schwartz , If you want to learn more about that , the book is called . You Are the One You've Been Waiting For . Isn't that a good title ? But ultimately , this is what Jeremy and Chris Bruno at ReStory are teaching us to do To care for ourselves as we care for others and , ultimately , to be really healthy humans Like I wish every human being could take this course on sitting in the dirt . Oh man could take this course on sitting in the dirt . Oh man . I wish all of my friends had this shared understanding and that we would practice together . I mean , I know that we're never going to sit in the dirt perfectly .

Speaker 2 23:26

Yeah .

Speaker 1 23:27

And we can always grow .

Speaker 2 23:31

And isn't that what's so beautiful about it , drew ? Because that's human . We are humans who are equally imperfect . So I love the fact that it's the dirt , because we're both going to be dirty when we get up , and it's the imperfection of it and the clunkiness of it , and at times like the difficulty , the to yes , that's all going to be there . And is that not how god meets us ? And is that not not where he chose to come even to earth and to be born , when and where he was born , to meet us in those difficult places where he got dirty too ?

Speaker 1 24:12

Yeah , I mean . Jesus literally became human in a poopy , smelly animal structure .

Speaker 2 24:28

Yes , I would not have done that . If I was Jesus , I would have been born , maybe not even in 2023 , maybe 2040 , when medical stuff has advanced even further , and I'm going to be comfortable and have showers and bathrooms and a bed , and that's not what he chose . Yeah , I don't think he was afraid of the poopy , smelly animal pen where he was born .

Speaker 1 24:51

Yeah . So , gentlemen , can it be that Jesus chooses to dwell within you , even in the poop , even in the smelly sexual brokenness , even in the dirt ? That doesn't deter him , that doesn't disgust him . He wants nothing more than to be with you and me .

Speaker 2 25:18

That's so well said .

Speaker 1 25:20

Man , this Jesus is good . He's better than we think sometimes .

Speaker 2 25:26

I think Jesus also goes like . He demonstrates so well what awareness and curiosity and kindness are . What is the thing that keeps us from the presence of God ? I mean , we read in Genesis , chapter three it's our own hiding and our own shame , our shame , or I should say our sin , the sin of Adam and Eve . It did have some legal consequences in the kingdom , but God , knowing about what they had done already , actually came looking for them . He came to walk with them in the garden after they had sinned , and he was well aware that they had . They were the ones who were hiding themselves . They were the ones who had sewed the leaves together to cover the parts of themselves that they decided were shameful .

Speaker 2 26:10

But God is just like incessant , like he's aware of that in his curiosity , to say hey , I'm not , I'm not going to rip the fig leaves off of you , I'm not going to go find you hiding and rip you out of that place and force you to be here , but I will invite and I will invite and I will invite and I will be safe and I'll be the kind of safe , kind presence that hopefully will lead you to believe someday that you can reveal the parts of you that you've hidden because you've called them shameful . Even though I call them glorious , you call them shameful and I can be with you in those places . That is aware and curious and kind , and I hope that's the kind of presence we can offer to each other .

Speaker 1 26:55

Right . God does not ask Adam and Eve what have you done ?

Speaker 2 27:03

Right . He asks them where are you ? Who told you you were naked ? He is moving closer . I love that phrase that you just said . Moving closer , like moving toward . Because what we were all used to is , when we tell the truth about something we've done that we think is shameful , we assume the response is going to be moving away . In fact , we might even help you move away by like saying things in a certain way super shameful , or trying to sabotage the conversation to help you move away from us , because we're so used to being abandoned in our shame . But when we sit in the dirt with someone , we actually move toward it . We lean in and invite them out .

Speaker 1 27:55

This is so good . If you guys enjoy this conversation and you want to learn more about sitting in the dirt , I would highly recommend taking Jeremy's course sitting in the dirt , which you can find at a link below , and you can use the discount code husband material for 10% off . I have taken this course . I am sharing it with my friends because I want the people in my life to be more like this . I want all of us to be able to give and receive God's love in this profound way Not just what to say or what to do , but how to be , how to be with each other , how to move closer and why that's so important , how scripture shows us the beauty of this again and again , and then getting really practical on some specific cases like anxiety , depression , grief , sexuality . This is probably the best online course I've taken .

Speaker 2 28:55

Oh man , honored to hear that , drew , and I'm just really glad that it's been helpful for you .

Embracing Presence and Healing Conversations

Speaker 2 29:00

I'm not joking when I say that my heart , I think , has ached for this kind of presence my whole life . And so to be able to equip , like the men who are a part of husband material , who I think are leading the way in their ability to be with each other , their willingness to go into hard conversations and to say hard things and to like own their shame , but also name it so huge . And we want , like Chris and I wanted this course to be something that was equipping for any person who sits with other people , who offers care , who offers presence , whether that's in a church context or outside of a church context , it doesn't even matter . I think we just want more people to be able to have conversations like this . So I think that there is so much healing , so much wholeness that can come as a result .

Speaker 1 29:50

Amen , and you guys are already doing such a great job in the Husband Material community of learning how to sit in the dirt with each other . You're already doing it . This is a resource that could reinforce what you're already learning and take you to the next level . I really loved it . So go down to the show notes , check out Sitting in the Dirt . Jeremy Williamson Restory Counseling Would highly recommend them , jeremy . What is your favorite thing about sitting in the dirt ?

Speaker 2 30:20

Feels like home . Walking on deep paths and in stretches of forest where you don't often walk , where even the person you're sitting with , even they haven't been very often like that sitting with , even they haven't been very often like that . Walking on those deep , I feel like sacred parts of of souls and stories is . It just feels like home and , um , I see god at work there , perhaps more than any other part of my life , like I get to see god working there , present there so I love it .

Speaker 1 30:52

what a beautiful picture for us of what we are doing when we practice being present . We are coming home and we're going on an adventure at the same time Super fun . Thanks so much , guys . Always remember you are God's beloved son . In you he is well-placed .