Healthy Arousal

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast , where we help Christian men outgrow porn . Why ? So you can change your brain , heal your heart and save your relationship . My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go . Hey , thank you so much for tuning in to my interview with Sam Joelman , an amazing man of God who has written a phenomenal book . In this conversation , you are going to hear why it's good to be aroused , what it looks like to reclaim your sexual arousal as a man , even if you're aroused by things that don't align with who you are or what you truly want . You're going to learn the difference between sensuality and sexuality , and also the God-given amazingness of awe and play , and how really the goal of our sexuality is greater awe , and Sam gives us an amazing blessing at the end . I strongly recommend listening to this whole episode because it is full of goodness and truth and it's going to be really challenging , I think , to a lot of you guys in a good way , because Sam's voice is unique and if you are ready for a more refreshing perspective on sexuality and what it looks like to outgrow porn , then this is the episode for you Enjoy .

Speaker 1 1:16

Today I'm hanging out with Sam Joelman , who is my friend . We actually go to the same church here in Colorado Springs , which is pretty cool , and he is a professional therapist and author who really specializes in men's issues sexual trauma recovery and he's written a new book called the Sex Talk you Never Got . Reclaiming the Heart of Masculine Sexuality . Sam , welcome to Husband Material . Thank you , Drew . This is such an honor . It is awesome and I am really excited about the topic for today . It's good to be aroused . Why are you passionate about ?

Speaker 2 1:58

this . You know , like most men , having to embody my own sexuality and finding my way with how do I embody my sexuality . I grew up in the church and got a version of purity culture . So for most men if they get a sex talk something like a shoddy anatomy lesson , which you know is sort of like how babies are made version of sex , and then they pretty quickly get a purity lecture of some sort , right , like , hey , this is only within marriage , which there's a version of that . That's intended . Well , right , purity is a well-intended message we're called to purity but I think it misses blessing the heart of sexuality , which is , hey , major , important footnote to make here . Actually , don't make it a footnote , make it a headline .

Speaker 2 2:50

This is actually really good in you . Your sexuality is a really good part of you . It's God's artwork and you were made to be moved and that's a good thing in the world . It's not something that you have to be scared of , because I think a lot of men are set up to be scared or at least suspicious of everything that moves in them , sexually , right , and maybe even otherwise right , not even knowing what is moving in me . Like you're standing in Starbucks and you see a beautiful woman or a beautiful person for that matter , right , and you suddenly feel something moving in you and I think a lot of guys are trained to think , okay , that's lust . Shut it down . Look the other way . Stop what's happening in me . I think I was stuck with . But wait a minute . Something about this is created good by God . What is that ? Where does this veer and skew into lust and where is it just healthy sexuality moving in you ?

Speaker 1 3:56

Yeah , let's talk about that , because I'm imagining guys thinking well , that's nice to be aroused by a woman at Starbucks , but what about me being aroused by a type of porn that I find appalling ? Or what about being aroused by the bodies of men , or even of children , like ? What do I do with ?

Speaker 2 4:15

that Right . So , as I say in the book , you know , all sexuality lives in a story . There's no such thing as storyless sexuality . It's never just an urge like sneezing or needing a drink of water right , those are more bodily and largely unscripted . I guess you could say right , obviously , you know , needing a glass of water might be because you didn't drink that day . Right , it's a part of a story . But a sexual urge isn't like a body drive , like I need food or I need oxygen or I need water .

Speaker 2 4:55

Sexuality is more scripted , right , it's a desire , not a drive . It's a want , not a need , and therefore it interacts more with your heart than maybe we're familiar with thinking about . Because sexuality always lives in a story , it always has a script to it . So a lot of times your arousal structure follows a script . What arouses you is a story and is shaped by right . It's again you need oxygen because you're human . That's really not scripted inside of you by your life . You just need oxygen . But your sexuality is scripted and is shaped by the life you've lived , right . So if arousal is joined to certain experiences in your life , those get wired together .

Speaker 2 5:51

You might say well , is that just sin and we're supposed to just repent of it . No , I mean , yes , we're meant to repent of lust , but how do you deal with your arousal script ? Right , you have to be curious about it . There's a difference in the body between arousal and desire , so it's called arousal non-concordance . Women have a stronger non-concordance than men , but it's true in men as well that men have something called arousal non-concordance , which means you can be aroused and not have desire . You can have desire and not be aroused , meaning they're not the same thing . So arousal in the body is not the same thing as desire . Now again , they do overlap , meaning in sexual experience you can feel aroused and have desire . They're not the same thing , yes , and at Husband Material .

Speaker 1 6:45

We talk a lot about that and one of the things that we teach men to do is , when you feel arousal , see if you can access what you really desire , right . But we probably haven't done a very good job of blessing our arousal and actually embracing the goodness of it . And in the sex talk you never got , you talk about living the aroused life , how God created us to be aroused , and in the intro you said the problem isn't too much sexual desire but rather too little heart . There's nothing inherently wrong with an aroused man .

Speaker 2 7:28

Yeah . So I was talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago and he says he had been watching the Women's March Madness and watching Caitlin Clark , the basketball player right , the three-point legend . He was describing this feeling he had while watching her right . He said I'm so drawn to wanting to watch her play , I just love watching her play . And he wondered out loud like gosh is that lust that I'm struggling with ? And he said it doesn't feel sexual . It feels like something more than just . It's not just like , oh , I'm lusting after her . And I said I think you're experiencing arousal that's leading you to awe . I think you're just in awe of her as a player right . As an athlete , the finesse with which she can move on the court and shoot a three right . There's a sense of beauty or awe to her playing capacity . And he said , yes , that's it . That's what it is .

Speaker 1 8:44

We need this language . We desperately need it because so many men are in this black and white thinking of okay , either I'm sinning or I'm not sinning , I have sexual feelings or I have some kind of pure heart , but we don't have this idea of awe , and I love how you say the goal of sexuality is awe .

Speaker 2 9:05

Yes .

Speaker 1 9:06

What do ?

Speaker 2 9:06

you mean by that ? Yeah , so awe is this thing . It's actually a researched emotion . Awe is we . You know , we probably all have a sense of when I say the word awe , like being an awe of an awesome thing , right ? Except , you know , that word is overused and we could say we had an awesome burrito and maybe it's that good , but it's just a word we use . But the word awe actually refers to the sense of your jaw being dropped . You get goosebumps , which the medical term for goosebumps is pyloerection . It just literally means your hair follicles are getting erect . It's so fascinating that they use that language . But , as I say in the book , your other erection .

Speaker 1 9:55

That's just amazing , right there .

Speaker 2 9:58

But awe is . It's this sense of . It's what you experience at a sunset . Or a beautiful piece of music , you know , maybe an amazing athletic performance , or you watch your children do something that is so innocent and amazing . You're just in awe of who they are . Or you watch that in another person , or a giant waterfall , or the lion at the zoo when it roars right . There's this sense of wow that's amazing to it .

Speaker 1 10:35

There's a fascination as well as a bit of fear .

Speaker 2 10:39

Right . So it's being in the presence of something that's transcendent or powerful , but yet you're drawn to it , right ? And that's this odd tension of awe is , I think the research article I read one of them described it . As you know , it's in the upper reaches of pleasure , on the edge of fear , right ? So it's this really profound sense of pleasure , near to fear , meaning right , like that one inch of glass between me and the lion right is allowing me to feel the pleasure of the moment . Otherwise I would be feeling pure terror , right ? But because of that one inch piece of glass , I can see this lion in his glory and yet feel some sense of terror , of course , that he could shred me that describes so perfectly what our sexuality was created for , yet also what many of us experience in porn .

Speaker 1 11:40

Yes , a sense of like pleasure on the edge of fear , correct . So how can we say it's good to be aroused or it's good to be in awe of whatever we see in porn ?

Speaker 2 11:58

It makes sense that we would feel some awe , right , at seeing naked bodies on display to us , because they bear the glory of God . Right , this is Adam in the Garden of Eden . Right , when he sees Eve for the first time , like whoa , there's a sense of awe . I would say . Obviously , I don't know what Adam experienced in that moment , but he breaks into poetry . There's this sense that he's experiencing awe . That same thing is happening .

Speaker 2 12:30

We get tastes of that in pornography , right , but the risk of porn isn't the right kind of risk , right , it's not the risk of vulnerability , right , it's maybe the risk of , I don't know , getting caught , or you feel some sense of danger because of the script of the porn Meaning . There's something that is introducing a kind of fear through violence , but it's not the fear through vulnerability . That's the difference of really healthy sexuality is meant to leave you in a state of awe , right , like you know , orgasm in itself is this kind of undone state of awe . Like you're , you're being overpowered by the moment of sexual intimacy and that's that's the awe . That's intended is there's a your vulnerability in a healthy way .

Speaker 1 13:26

That is so clarifying for me . So in other words , pornography is pleasure on the edge of fear due to violence , whereas really healthy sexuality and intimacy in a relationship that's safe and connected is pleasure on the edge of fear , of vulnerability . Right Instead of violence .

Speaker 2 13:46

Right , you know , I think evil intends to draw us into forms of self-harm in our sexuality right or violence to other people to try to get us out of the real awe , the real powerful stuff , which is the awe of vulnerability , Amen .

Speaker 1 14:07

Porn is essentially a type of self-harm in addition to harming others . And yet purity culture can also be a form of self-harm . I mean literally right With snapping a rubber band on my wrist every time I masturbate , or like the other punitive consequences that we do internally with how we beat ourselves up .

Speaker 2 14:30

Or you know , like the men that I walk with in my counseling practice , who you know feel that , who literally live in terror because they're afraid that God is angry at them . You know , like , the car accident I got into today was because I masturbated and God was mad at me . Or my , you know , my car didn't start because God's mad at me , right , Because I acted out . Or you know guys that live with that sense of looming terror around any corner because , you know , maybe acted out lustfully with their sexuality , but that sense of just God , anything that happens in the body sexually should put you in terror . You know , awe is really this idea in the Bible of the fear of the Lord . So we have this , you know , big call in the Old Testament , especially right to fear the Lord . Right , the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom , the fear of the Lord is the beginning of everything . I think the proverb even says right , Like to fear the Lord .

Speaker 2 15:27

And as a young man growing up in the church , I thought that meant like , literally you needed to be afraid of him . Right , Like , and that's why you would stop sinning . Right , it's because God is scary and you should be afraid of him in a he's angry sort of way , and I think purity culture has a lot of that tonality to it . Again , not necessarily that they say that out loud , but sometimes they do . God hates sin and you're living in sin and do the math . God must hate you , probably . Then , right , I think God doesn't want to terrify us into holiness . He wants to awe us into holiness , right that the fear of the Lord is this sense of I'm undone by you , but I want to come close to you . I think that's what God wants , right .

Speaker 1 16:19

Yeah , so many of the men in our community feel a sense of terror and self-hatred because of what arouses them , and so that this concept of blessing arousal or um , god created arousal , or it's good to be aroused just feels so hard to accept . And one of the concepts you present that really helped me understand how can we look at this in a healthy way is the difference between sensuality and sexuality . Yeah , the difference between general arousal and sexual arousal as well . Could you say more about the difference between sensuality and sexuality ?

Speaker 2 17:10

Yeah , you know we often equate them as the same right , that sensuality is sexuality . But sensuality is really just the idea that you , you know literally of the senses , right , that you are living life through taste , touch , sight , smell , hearing . That you're as I say in the book . You know , god made you to be a very sensual being . That's how you operate in

The Pleasure of Sensuality and Arousal

Speaker 2 17:38

the world . It's literally how we survive , right ? How do you know if something's hot ? How do you know if something is , I suppose , roaring behind you ? Right , how do you smell if there's a fire ? Through smelling smoke ? In other words , sensuality keeps us alive .

Speaker 2 17:56

It's how we literally survive , but it's also an orientation that I think God intended for us to enjoy the pleasure of life . You have 4,000 taste buds on your tongue and again , a little bit of that is to know if you're drinking something hot , too hot , or something is rotten . So there's a little bit of survival , but largely it's there for pleasure , for you to taste all the nuance of a well-done steak or really good ice cream or really good coffee . Right , what's the difference between Folgers and single origin ? Yeah , and that's arousal right .

Speaker 2 18:39

Right , there's a that's arousal , right . Right , there's a neurological term arousal Within that is sexual arousal . But arousal literally means that you're awake and oriented to life , that you're alive , that you feel well in your body and that your senses are turned on , that you can feel things . You know that trauma can impact that . So people who have certain types of trauma can feel more numb to their senses , right , they don't notice hot things or like your body can literally be impacted in its capacity for sensuality by your story , by your trauma . But sensuality , I think , is intended . God cares about your pleasure . He wants you aroused to life , to know really good jazz music . I think God desires that . Obviously the psalmist says taste and see that the Lord is good . There's a sense that he wants you , through your senses , to know his goodness .

Speaker 2 19:43

1 . John is a place where John writes at the beginning . Basically he says I'm talking to you about my sensuality of Jesus . Right , like what I heard , what I saw , right , what my hands have touched . This is what I'm telling you about . I'm not just giving you theology from a conversation . I'm telling you my sensual experience of the life of Jesus .

Speaker 1 20:10

That's so good . Isn't that different than the version of Christianity which is against pleasure , against senses ? I mean , there's almost this idea of to be holy means to deny pleasure .

Speaker 2 20:27

Right .

Speaker 1 20:28

To starve my senses , right , but really that actually sounds a lot more like evil , a lot more like evil In the book . You say evil hates your arousal and has tried to join shame to your arousal through harm . Yes , I love this idea that Jesus desires us to experience life and goodness in our senses . Yeah , and evil is trying to destroy that .

Speaker 2 21:01

I really think that the fruit of arousal will be awe . Like you will . As Eugene Peterson says , when you experience the beauty of life or the goodness of life or the pleasure of life , you'll want to go looking for somebody to thank . Right , and evil hates that . Evil doesn't want you experiencing the pleasure of life because you'll want to say , wow , right , don't you feel that when you see a sunset , like you know there's no way this is an accident , really Right , like you suddenly have this openness to wanting to seek out the being . Who made this ? Whose artistry is this ? Who did this ? Right that that's a natural fruit of good arousal or pleasure or awe in life is you want to go worship someone , you want to go thank someone . So evil hates that .

Speaker 2 21:57

Evil does not want you feeling genuine pleasure , and so evil will try to join your arousal to shame . And that can be with disordered eating . Right To create some story around your eating that is shameful . So it's not an eating unto pleasure and health in your body , but that somehow you now have shame for your eating . But that can also happen with sex . Right that now the arousal you feel in your body is joined to a story of shame or a script of shame , as you talked about right that gosh . I feel like there are things that arouse me , that are shameful and I don't know what to do with that . And it's easy , then I would say , as I say in the book , we get really used to repenting of having a body right , not just repenting of our flesh , but repenting of our sensuality in general , just whatever is going on in me , just I confess it , god , it's all bad .

Speaker 1 23:06

It's like we go back and forth between feeling like we should be angels but we're really animals . Yes , Rather than human beings . That's well said . I got it from Rob Bell . He wrote a book called Sex God way back in the day . That was my favorite thing . He said he was like we feel like , oh my gosh , I have to be an angel without a body , without needs , without this feeling which I call lust but is really just arousal .

Speaker 2 23:33

Right , we live in that tension right Of you know , as Psalm 8 , you made us a little lower than God , right . What is man ? That you're mindful of him , the son of man , that you care for him . You've made us a little lower than God . So we have that kind of like glory , heavenly sense , right , but we're still bodies , we're still embodied beings , right , and our essence , not just as a container for the soul , as you know , as falsely often said , we're bodies through and through and we will always exist , even resurrected , as bodies .

Speaker 1 24:03

So what does it look like to stop repenting for having a body ?

Speaker 2 24:09

So , again , there's places , obviously , to repent of lust or anger , many other things , but I think it is essential , and I think this is one of the greatest gifts of the gospel our freedom in Jesus is that we get to be curious about our sin . We get to be curious about what moves in us . You know , to ask the questions of how did I ? You know , as you say , it's very familiar in your community how did I get here ? What led me to want this in this moment ? Because I think it's easy to , if your sensuality and your sense of awe feels like it leads you to dark places

Reclaiming Male Sensuality and Arousal

Speaker 2 24:54

.

Speaker 2 24:54

Well , look , I live out this arousal script . It's got to be bad in me . I've got to be a monster or a pervert or gross or dark or even evil . Right , something must be really broken in me and you may have brokenness , but you've got to sit with . You were made a sensual being , sensual being . You were made to be moved by life . And again , evil may have found a way to bring shame into that story , but your base sensuality , your base capacity for arousal and awe is God's design . You were made to be moved by life to become a worshiper of God . So you have to start with , no matter what's true of how I have lived this out , it's not bad . And then to start to be curious of like how did this story get commandeered ? How did it go askew ? How am I spending all my awe on pornography ? Let's say , for example , right , how did I get stuck living out my awe on pornography ? Let's say , for example , right , how did I get stuck living on my awe there and not in more vulnerable places of risk ?

Speaker 1 26:10

Yes , this is just so good . I really think this is the best book on sexuality for men outgrowing porn in the last six years . I mean this is so important . I want to go through this with my sons one day . But more than that , it's just your heart and who . You are behind it , a man who is reclaiming what evil stole . I mean you say that male sexuality has done incredible amounts of harm and therefore we've disowned it . And all of this talk about how arousal is good and we can embrace it in a godly way it's really taking it back , isn't it ? To me , reading this book kind of feels like coming home .

Speaker 2 27:09

That means so much . I'm so glad . Yeah , as I say in the book , and what feels so lost right now in the kind of larger culture of men and masculinity in our culture is this idea that every man at his heart is a lover . I get the privilege of sitting with men in the confidentiality of counseling where they tell me these stories right , when they feel like they can admit it without the pressure of , I guess , male culture . For example , I think it was last week or the week before I had a guy say to me look , he said I know I'm supposed to , according to male culture , always be ready for sex and always ready to get it up , and right , I'm always , you know , like that's the pressure , You're just always in the ready . And he said I actually need the emotional stuff , I actually need the foreplay stuff . Like sure I suppose I could perform . But he said my heart wants the emotional connection and the sensuality of foreplay . You know , if I had a dollar for every time I've heard that kind of thing from men in counseling , right , A lot of times guys will say I feel like I'm more like the woman in the relationship because I actually want the emotional stuff .

Speaker 2 28:32

I don't just want sex . But I feel like I'm supposed to just want sex , Right yes , want sex , right yes , as I say in the book , we're all overly sexualized as men , under , sexually nurtured . We don't have that heart grown in us which is that you're a lover . Right , we love those pictures of men , right Like the soldiers coming home from war or deployment and when they greet their kids . Right Like they sneak into their high school or elementary school and they surprise their children and they both break down crying . Right Like . You've probably seen those kinds of videos , maybe on YouTube or TikTok , and don't they move you with like , oh , wow , that's so powerful to see a man loving well , and it's embodied in those men wildly masculine . But we just don't have that kind of conversation or space to talk like that , it seems .

Speaker 1 29:35

That's right . That's right . That's right . You cite Peggy Orenstein saying that women grow up raised to be disconnected from their bodies , but men grow up being raised to be disconnected from our hearts . Right , so we need to not just embrace the warrior , but also the lover .

Speaker 2 29:54

Right , I'm trying in the book to give men permission . You actually want the sensual stuff . You've been asked to push through a lot of hard things as athletes . How do you stay in the playing field when you're injured ? You got to push through sometimes and life will ask you , not just on a playing field , but work to have grit , to suffer , to be the warrior , to be the worker .

Speaker 1 30:21

We attempt to be emotionally unaffected , and then we perceive our sensitivity as a weakness or something feminine Right .

Speaker 2 30:30

Why is that , right ? Why don't men get to come off the playing field and actually feel Right , right and come back to themselves , come back to their bodies ? It's weird that we don't have that . You think of old Western mining towns , since we're here in Colorado , right , and these mining towns would have mines , where guys would work so hard , and then what would be in the town ? A brothel and a bar , right , it's like the only ways men could feel any kind of sensuality was largely to not feel , to numb it , right , you get , you get some alcohol , you get a brothel , paid for sex and then you get back to work the next day , right ? Why we don't have the space given to men to be lovers , to actually be sensual and come back to their bodies ?

Speaker 1 31:20

well , yeah , you're right . And so much of our life is now disembodied . It's almost as if we're in like a digital mining town on the internet , where we go from .

Speaker 2 31:32

Wow that's well said .

Speaker 1 31:34

Yeah , it just came to me . It's like working so hard at the screen and then right next door is porn .

Speaker 2 31:40

Right , right , I'm sure you hear these stories too . Men that will say yeah , takes away my anxiety for the moment , so I can get back to work . I'll quickly go look at porn on a little break . It's like the new smoking break or something , right ?

Speaker 1 31:57

Mm-hmm . It is a workplace thing , and that's not surprising . It's a sexualized stress reliever . It's emotional regulation , more than anything else . We've got a very clear picture right now of what it looks like to be attached to porn and to have porn be our primary arousal . Porn be our primary arousal , perhaps . What does it look like to truly live the aroused life ?

Speaker 2 32:29

The aroused life is really . I'm inviting men to reclaim their aliveness right , their capacity for sensuality , their capacity for beauty , their emotional regulation right . So , seeing reclaiming sexuality even in the realm of sex , to reclaim it as an act of beauty and awe versus an urge , I have to answer because I feel really stressed out or I feel really numb and I want to feel good . So I'm inviting men to , hey , I'm inviting you to grow as a lover here . There's a whole world waiting for you of beauty and sensuality , kind of obligation , sex with your wife or acting out in some way . If that's the only place you're living out your sensuality , you're living really emaciated . And so , after the chapter on , how do you engage your story of sexuality right and engage your arousal structure and engage your shame and how evil is scripted shame in your life ? So it's not maybe step one right . Step one might be be curious about your arousal , be curious about where that story was shaped . But then after that , then what ? Well , go , reclaim your sensuality . What makes you come alive ? I have three boys and part of the reason I wrote this book is because it was like my God . What am I gonna say when it comes time to talk to my boys about this . One of the ways I'm giving the sex talk to my sons and we've had the official sex talk it's never just one talk , as I say in the book . It's hundreds of one-minute conversations about sex and sexuality and sensuality and beauty and love . But one of the ways I'm doing that is trying to take my boys into a lot of beautiful places and talk about it . Like take the minute to stop the car and look at the beautiful sunset , or take them on beautiful hikes , as we have here in Colorado , and just stop and look at the beautiful flowers , just marvel at something right Right now my boys and I marvel at . They're really into cars , so we marvel at like you know it's man-made beauty , but they're beautiful and look at the shape and the design right , and the sensuality of a car , the sound it makes right and the feel of it . So we've gone to some dealerships in Denver to look at beautiful cars . But living the aroused life is where are you engaging your sensuality , your sense of beauty , learning to play well being another category of reclaiming your aroused life ?

Speaker 2 35:25

I'm convinced you know what is sex at its essence , like is sex just a thing in itself ? And at some level . Yeah , it's a unique experience , but I think at its essence it is really an act of play . It's really a form of play and as I go expand on long in the book , on a whole chapter , it really follows the elements of play . What defines play ? But sex is intended to be a form of play and so even just recovering play in your life , playfulness , playfulness which I know your community does well , I've heard of the legend of your retreats , like why Is that just fun and silly ? No , I mean , yes , it can be fun and silly , it's meant to be light and playful , right . I mean , yes , it can be fun and silly , it's meant to be light and playful , right . But it's also restoring a healthy sense of play , can actually restore a healthy sense of sexuality , and I know that might feel like what , but truly playing well can grow and shape your capacity to play well at sex .

Embracing Playfulness and Awe in Life

Speaker 2 36:42

Right To be playful and maybe childlike is not the same as being childish . Yes , Well said Right , Like there's something you're never meant to outgrow . Yeah , I love that You're supposed to mature , but Jesus made very clear you must receive the kingdom of God like a child . What did he mean ? He obviously meant not tantruming and maybe the other immature things of being a child . He meant something I would say , like you're saying well , the playfulness , the innocence .

Speaker 1 37:14

And if we truly are God's beloved sons , part of our inheritance is the freedom to play . Yes , a slave has to work all the time , but a son gets to play .

Speaker 2 37:27

Yes , well said , and certainly I've struggled here . Right like we feel we have to outgrow it or give it up , right like there's always something to do yeah , if you , if you prioritize play , that's just being selfish .

Speaker 1 37:42

might be a script Right .

Speaker 2 37:44

Right Cause I think you know there are certain men that feel shame probably for , like , their draw to play video games or their draw to play to spend that time , Right , it feels like a sacrifice on their family that and there's a tension there , right ? Like we aren't meant to only play games of leisure , right , like there can be things in life that we're invited to play with . You know , like I would say , doing therapy with clients is a form of play for me . So incorporating play even into how we live and work , it doesn't have to just be leisure , so being able to recover , as you're saying . Well , like your playfulness , you're not meant to outgrow that . Don't leave that in boyhood , take it with you .

Speaker 1 38:28

Yes , I love that so much . It feels very true and just thinking about regulation too . I mean , play is one of those really unique states that the nervous system goes through right . It kind of helps us to move between different states of safety and danger . But what's happening in the nervous system when we embrace playfulness ?

Speaker 2 38:58

So play , you're saying that . So well , play is what's called a mixed state , so it is both parasympathetic , soothing , with sympathetic intensity . I guess you could say Activation , activation , well said yeah . So you're experiencing simultaneously this rhythm of intensity , right Near fight or flight even .

Speaker 1 39:21

Right Like when you're playing ping pong and you get really , really into it and start yelling .

Speaker 2 39:25

Right , right , right . Or you're watching a soccer game and these guys are just full on going for it , right , and there's a sense of intensity , of fight or flight . Go Right , take action , which returns then to soothing . Right , you come down , you have moments of calm , you have moments of rest . You come down , you have moments of calm , you have moments of rest , the whistle blows , you have a timeout , you're coming back down .

Speaker 2 39:47

Stephen Porgs , I think , is the guy that said this , who polyvagal theory . He described play as neural exercise . It's actually a form of growing your capacity to handle stress and growing your capacity to go up into sympathetic intensity , activation and then return back down to parasympathetic soothing . That play allows that . And he gives the example of a boy or a baby that is playing peekaboo with its mother . Right , the mother says boo , she hides her face , which is alarming to a kid . A baby then says boo , which is further alarming . Right , you hear the like sympathetic , fight or flight . And then the mother's face softens and she giggles and she tickles right , and then oh , oh , there you are and the baby is back to like soothing and calm and safety . And that little play grows our capacity to handle and cope .

Speaker 1 40:49

That is profound . We got to sit with that one for a little bit . Play as neural exercise . It is not superfluous , it is not peripheral , it is a big part of outgrowing porn by refusing to outgrow play . Now I wonder what you'll think of this . Doug Carpenter , who is a clinical psychologist in our community , has described pornography as post-traumatic play .

Speaker 2 41:20

Oh , that is so well said .

Speaker 2 41:22

Isn't it , yes , and again without knowing fully what he means , but instantly I have a picture of what he's saying . We have this terminology right . It's a very shaming terminology , you know . Playing with yourself yeah , if you can just stay with that language for a second , it is a form of lonely play , it's a game of one and it's not even good play , right , and I don't fully know what he means by post-traumatic play . But I would say , you know , it's often play that reenacts past trauma , past harm , past moments of shame , past moments of loneliness , and therefore it's not neural exercise that's generative or restorative , it just reenacts , it just doubles down the shame , it keeps you stuck and , in fact , maybe even makes you feel more stuck because it's not healing the trauma , it's just reenacting it .

Speaker 1 42:22

Right , I'm sure listeners will be taking away all sorts of different things from this conversation , but one of my main feelings right now is that arousal is not evil and play is really important , yes , and that awe is what we were created for . Yes , that's right . Thank you for helping us understand these things , yes , and , more than that , to experience them .

Speaker 2 42:51

Absolutely . This has been such a rich conversation and , yeah , if I you know , if I could give any takeaway , it would be for a man to feel angry , even kind of roused , to be mad that those things have been shamed in him , that those things have been taken and joined to evil , right His sense of play , his sense of arousal , his sense of being moved , his sexuality , that there'd be some sense of saying , no , this was created good by God . I need to seek out how to bless this in myself .

Speaker 1 43:28

Could you give us a blessing ?

Speaker 2 43:30

That would be great .

Speaker 2 43:32

I pray the men listening that you would know that God made your sexuality good , that your story does not begin with sin and shame but begins with being moved with awe , with nakedness , without shame .

Speaker 2 43:52

And I pray that you would hear God , the Father's voice , speaking to you about the goodness of your design , the Father's voice speaking to you about the goodness of your design .

Speaker 2 44:05

I pray that he would rouse your heart to want to claim back what has been held in shame , shot down , maybe through pain , captured by the evil one , whispered to by the evil one . I pray that you would feel whispered to by the evil one . I pray that you would feel truly the movement of the Spirit in you to want to say hell , no , literally hell , no to the hell that has helped you . I pray that God would remind you of your playful heart , of the boy you once were and how he played , that God would show you and remind you of ways you've been moved well , that you've been moved by beauty , that you've been in love with parts of the world , things in life , and you've forgotten that . I pray that God would bless the lover in you through and through with all of his sensuality , with all of his awe , with all of his sexuality , for the glory of God and in Jesus name amen , Amen .

Speaker 1 45:08

Thank you , Sam . Thank you Drew . This has been great . I received that , Sam

Reclaiming Sensuality and Freedom From Porn

Speaker 1 45:14

. What is your favorite thing about freedom from porn ?

Speaker 2 45:17

I get back my sensuality . I get back my pleasure . I get back my sense of awe . I get back my pleasure . I get back my sense of awe , I get back my playfulness , being , you know , so , done with the cycle of shame and shutdown . Yeah , I think I would say that .

Speaker 1 45:34

I think you're glowing right now . I think it's your glory coming through , praising God for the beauty of that life that we are continually stepping into as we outgrow porn Guys . You can connect with Sam at the links in the show notes . Get his book , the Sex Talk you Never Got , and you can also go to samjolmancom . Right , that's right . Well , thank you so much for being with us . Can't wait to hear what you all think about this episode . You can respond to us in the Husband Material community and always remember my friend , you are God's beloved son In you . He is well-pleased .