Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today we are talking about polyvagal theory, one of the most powerful, important lenses that we use here at Husband Material to understand what is happening in the autonomic nervous system. Because porn is not primarily a problem. We use it as a solution to regulate our nervous systems, and so being able to understand how that nervous system works is incredibly important, and polyvagal theory can help us do that.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Today, certified husband material coach, john Kilmer will be our guide. He is polyvagal informed. He has done clinical training in this area and is a wealth of information about this topic. This episode is actually another excerpt of the brand new online course Heal your Trauma Resolving the Roots of Porn and Sex Addiction, which you can find at healyourtraumacom. Polyvagal theory truly is a game changer in how you understand yourself and become aware of what's happening in your body at any given time. It's extremely helpful for finding ways to regulate without porn, so I think you're going to learn a lot. Enjoy the episode Today. In this video, we are joined by John Kilmer, one of my favorite people, who is trained in polyvagal theory. Welcome.

Speaker 2: 2:00

John. Thank you, Drew. I am so excited to be talking about polyvagal theory and how it relates to addiction.

Speaker 1: 2:09

And healing trauma. That's what we are focused on in this course. Specifically, john, what is polyvagal theory and why is it one of the approaches we need to talk about for this topic?

Speaker 2: 2:25

Yes, so polyvagal theory was first came into being in 1994, and it really began to take form under Stephen Porges, and he has written extensively on this theory.

Speaker 2: 2:39

But what polyvagal theory truly is is a way of viewing our nervous system and our ability to connect, or issues of disconnection and trauma that are in our bodies and our nervous system, how it regulates us throughout the day, up and down, through different aspects of connection, disconnection, activity, rest. Our nervous system is incredible. So Vegas is the term for a cranial nerve. That's the largest nerve in the body and it runs from our cranium all the way down into our deep gut and it takes multiple paths in our body, and so the term poly. So for polyvagal, the term poly means many and Vegas means wandering. So this nerve wanders through our body and is designed by our most high God in an incredible way to enable us to connect and enable us to fight when we need to, to rest when we need to, to flee when we need to, to connect when we need to. So it's a beautiful way of processing how our nervous system is working in the world around us and how other people's nervous system is working in relation to us. It's really great.

Speaker 1: 4:00

And it's very connected to our sexuality too, right.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Absolutely, absolutely. It is connected to our sexuality as well as our past trauma, which, in husband material, we talk a lot about, how our trauma is connected to our sexuality. I wanted to also put a plug in for Deb Dana. She has written a number of books and articles that the one I like the best is called Anchored, and Deb has really put Stephen Porges' concepts into more everyday language. Stephen is a brilliant man and some of his writing is challenging to understand, and so Deb Dana is a licensed clinical social worker. She's an expert in polyvagal theory and she does nationwide, worldwide workshops and trainings on polyvagal. So I'd recommend her book Anchored. It's very good and it's kind of a layman's term book. Another truth about the nervous system that I think is great is that it's not static, it's moldable. We can change the way we relate to other people by learning how to feel safer around certain people, so we don't have to stay stuck in patterns of challenge and difficulty and addiction. We can change, and there's scientific evidence for that, which is super exciting.

Speaker 1: 5:28

Awesome. In the wonderful world of polyvagal theory, there are many wandering paths we could take to go into the details of it, but if you have to simplify it for somebody who's just being introduced, what are some of the key insights?

Speaker 2: 5:48

Absolutely. Dip Dana talks about our nervous system as being like a ladder and throughout our days, multiple times a day, we go up and down this ladder. I really like the training that you have put together for Husband Material Academy on the different colors and the different zones of our emotional state. You talk about the green zone being safe and social, the red zone being fight or flight and the blue zone being collapse or freeze, and that's exactly what polyvagal theory teaches. Is these different areas of our nervous system the safe and social area, the green zone, that is considered ventral bagel? Ventral bagel just means the part of the nervous system that is in the ventral part, Fight or flight? That's the sympathetic nervous system. That's what enables us to move, to activate when we need to, and then freeze and collapse in the bottom. That is the dorsal bagel part of the nervous system. As we talk about polyvagal theory, we're talking about this all the time the ladder, the ventral, the sympathetic and the dorsal parts of the nervous system. I also wanted to talk about how our nervous system serves us even in those areas of challenge right. So it's easy to look at the part of our nervous system that is like fight or freeze or flight and to judge that part harshly. But think about how God has given us a nervous system to mobilize when we need to. We wouldn't be able to take a jog or ride our bicycle without activation of our sympathetic nervous system.

Speaker 2: 7:46

And it's easy also to harshly judge that part of our nervous system that is frozen or collapsed or shut down, where we just want to shut out the world. In fact, that's commonly an area where we desire porn in order to kind of bring us up out of that feeling. But that part should be honored as well. It's a God-given place of rest. That's where digestion takes place, Breathing, heart rate, all the things that we're unconscious of, and so our nervous system should be honored all of it. It's easy to look at the ventral area, that top part, and talk about safe and social and well-resourced and wonderfully connected, and to believe that that's where we need to stay at all times and that everything else should be ignored or repressed or denied. The truth is, we're going up and down that ladder all the time, and so the first key is to simply notice and name. Where am I on the ladder, Drew? Where are you on the ladder right now?

Speaker 1: 8:53

I am in the middle Just on this interview. I'm in performance mode. There's a part of me that wants to connect with you and there's another part of me that wants to make sure that we do a great job. So I'm a little bit activated, I'm a little bit energetic and it's really helpful to use that language of where am I, rather than what's wrong with me, why can't I get out of this? I'm asking the question where am I is a non-judgmental, curious and compassionate way of beginning to locate our physical state, and that naming of the state is often the first step to be able to regulate without porn.

Speaker 2: 9:42

Yes, bingo. So I want to flesh this out a little bit. There's a really great illustration of the nervous system ladder called the autonomic nervous system. As a ladder and at the very top you'll see it says save, social and engage. That's the ventral vagal activation. So in this area my attitude is I'm feeling at ease, I can manage whatever comes my way. I feel empowered and connected. I can see the big picture and I want to connect with people in the world around me. And those are the feelings and the body states of how I feel when I'm in a ventral vagal place up at the top of the ladder. The world is good. It doesn't have to be euphoria. It doesn't have to be this place of just. I feel good all the time. It can also be a place of generalized solidness, like I feel reasonably resourced to complete my day. I feel reasonably connected, I'm connected enough. So if you come down the ladder to a mobilized, agitated, frantic state, again not always bad. We need mobilization to exercise, to play, to engage with our world.

Speaker 1: 11:06

And also to escape from harm.

Speaker 2: 11:09

Yes, yeah, very important, very important. And so in this sympathetic, activated place, the attitude maybe, or the feelings, maybe, the messages, maybe I'm getting overwhelmed, I'm having a hard time keeping up. That's how I'm feeling about the weeds in my garden right now, by the way. I feel anxious, I feel irritated. The world seems a little bit unsafe, in fact it might seem dangerous. It feels chaotic and unfriendly, and so there's this desire to flee, to fight. And interestingly enough, drew, you talk about fawn and freeze as well, and I happen to believe that both fawn and freeze belong in the sympathetic activation part of the ladder, because if I'm fawning, I'm doing something to try to ingratiate myself to someone else. I feel anxious inside, and so I'm trying to be overly friendly, I'm people pleasing.

Speaker 2: 12:08

Yes yes, and if I am freezing, that's not so much a dorsal vagal activation and we'll go into that in a second here but it's more of a. The system is tanked with such crazy energy that I don't know which way to go Right. So I'm just like kind of almost stuck there, trembling, and that's a very sympathetic activated part of the nervous system. So as we come down the ladder into dorsal vagal activation, this is where I feel numb, collapsed and shut down. Now, when I was first learning this terminology with polyvagal theory, I thought dorsal, Okay, that does describe a part of where the nerve is in the body. But it also describes or I started thinking in my mind a word game and I said dorsal, that sounds like door sill. In other words, I'm collapsed at the base of my door, I cannot do, I cannot go in and I cannot go out. So in a dorsal attitude, it feels like I'm buried under this huge load and I can't get out. I'm boxed in, I'm alone, I'm in despair, the world is empty and dark. So, as you can tell, this is a really difficult place to be.

Speaker 2: 13:34

Interestingly enough, where porn activation happens, well, I have to tell you where porn use can be a real temptation. It has been a temptation for me all the way up and down the ladder. If I'm feeling reasonably resourced, what do I wanna do? Celebrate with porn. This is when the old addictive patterns were very active in me. When I'm feeling anxious, what might I wanna do? I wanna do calm myself down by the release of porn and masturbation. If I am feeling shut down and closed, what do I feel like I need? I need a little bit more energy. I need to feel alive again. I need to feel okay about myself Again. Porn so you can see how porn use in all these areas. Although it is short circuiting, healing big time, it has served us in a strange way to try to help us regulate our nervous system.

Speaker 1: 14:31

This is so relatable.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Right, it's true, and what you'll notice if you were to track your nervous system throughout the day? There are ever so slight and big gyrational movements up and down this ladder continuously, and so the invitation with polyvagal theory is to simply notice and name. Where am I on the ladder? And it's interesting, they ask other questions too. For example, in a ventral vagal activated state, what stories am I telling myself about myself and the world around me? I feel connected. I am enough. God loves me. What about sympathetic activation? What stories am I telling myself from this place? I'm overwhelmed, I can't handle it. I got to do something right now. I don't have options. So there's a lot of teaching in Polyvagal Theory about story following state. So how many of us have been in the boat of I have no option but to look at porn right now? It is going to happen, right, and it can feel so discouraging, but it is because the story in my head says I must have this in order to move up and down the ladder or in order to get to a better place, and so that's a very interesting thing. We could spend hours talking about how story follows state, but wherever I'm at on my ladder, I have stories about that.

Speaker 2: 16:23

There's a really great quote by Deb Dana and she says trauma compromises our ability to engage with others, just what we're talking about right here. Right, by replacing patterns of connection with patterns of protection. Trauma compromises our ability to engage with others by replacing patterns of connection with patterns of protection. And so when I'm in a dorsal place, shut down, covers over my head, world go away. That's a pattern of protection. When I'm in a sympathetically charged place where I have to fight or fawn or freeze or fly flee, I am in also a pattern of protection. And so it's not until I can get up into that ventral place to connect and feel reasonably safe that I can access those higher level emotional and reasoning skills. Deb talks a lot about our home away from home. So she talked about ventral, vagal, open and connected as being our true home. And then our home away from home, something that's been very familiar to us in our family systems, in our own growing up, might be dorsal, vagal, it might be sympathetic.

Speaker 1: 17:52

So this idea of a home away from home means that's where we go sometimes and there can be a time and a place for that, but we really belong in ventral vagal safety and connection. John, how do you come to a place where you live more of your life in that home?

Speaker 2: 18:14

It's interesting because when I'm very activated, sympathetically, the story I tell myself is there's no time to connect with others. I got to get this done. When I'm in a collapsed dorsal place, the story I tell myself is nobody cares about me and it takes too much energy to try to connect right. And so when I'm clear about my stories, it helps my rational brain kick in a little bit and say John, connect, even if it's a little bit. And so what? You know, I love your teaching on BOA in Husband Material Academy because it really starts sometimes with just simply breathing. And I don't know why, but breathing the belly, breathing even for just two minutes or less, all of a sudden brings me into a different place on my ladder where I begin to see options that I didn't know were there. I begin to feel a little bit more relaxed. It's crazy. And so some really, really simple strategies can really go a long ways in helping me get to that ventral vagal place.

Speaker 2: 19:25

And then I've been actually training some of my friends in polyvagal theory, and I have one friend in particular who uses these terms with me ventral vagal, sympathetic dorsal vagal and it's very endearing, and so he'll even check in with me. He's like I've been in a dorsal place yesterday, right, and so starting to use the language of polyvagal theory to explain what's going on in your nervous system can be really beautiful just with a few trusted others, and the key really is connection Nearly makes me want to cry as I talk with you about it, because it's so beautiful and I believe God is written all over this, because he's the great creator of our nervous systems. It was never his intention that we'd be traumatized and he. Another beautiful thing about our nervous systems and God and trauma is that he's not bound by time, and so where that traumatic event happened 40 years ago, that's time is present to him. We can invite him right into our dysregulated nervous system and bring that trauma up and out and bring healing Just beautiful.

Speaker 1: 20:38

So polyvagal theory is not necessarily one technique or method. It's more of a lens and a way of understanding things that we can apply to any one of these different approaches that we've been talking about, and it leads to amazing wonder and awe when we can see some of the science behind the healing experiences that we witness in others and that we've been through ourselves. It shows me why calling a friend has been so powerful. For me. It's because co-regulation precedes self-regulation.

Speaker 2: 21:17

Yes, and particularly think about very young children. They're not able to self-regulate very well. You and I both know that. But co-regulation precedes that and I think that was a mind bender for me. I'm really glad you said that, because it's not what I first think. I first think, oh, I need to be in a different state before I'm like, before the world can handle me like when I'm really shut down or really activated. But if I can just invite someone else into that state and they can co-regulate with me, even breathe together, pray together, talk together, go for a walk together, it makes all the difference.

Speaker 2: 21:59

I also wanted to put a plug in for nature. I took this six-month-long polyvagal training journey with Deb Dana. Many people on this journey together with me I think they were around 50, to a fault through. Every single one of those people were able to access ventral vagal energy when they were in nature. Better yet, invite a friend into nature, God's second book. He is shouting out his love to us in nature. And these were people who were not Christians and yet God was speaking so poignantly and clearly into their nervous systems and bringing regulation by being in nature. So I'm a big nature guy. I love it.

Speaker 1: 22:47

Nature absorbs trauma. We could have done a whole video on nature. Oh man, let's do it For now. Thank you so much, John, and you can find John's contact information below this video. It's my joy to be here, Drew. If you had to put it into one sentence, how can polyvagal theory help men heal from sexual addiction?

Speaker 2: 23:10

Sexual addiction is a very solitary, alone place to be, and so polyvagal invites connection. It invites me in my deepest, darkest wound, deepest, darkest secret, biggest challenge, biggest addiction, biggest compulsion to invite others in and to connect with them, and therein lies the power and the healing.

Speaker 1: 23:39

Thanks for staying till the end. This episode was just an introduction to polyvagal theory. There is so much more to learn, so go down to the recommended resources in the show notes to see some of what John was talking about. Especially the books by Deb Dana are incredible, and if you want to see the rest of this course 10 ways to heal your trauma go to healyourtraumacom. Get all the 14 video lessons, the amazing PDF we put together, and this is all free because we believe that everyone struggling with porn deserves accessible support. So go to healyourtraumacom, check out John Kilmer's info, look at some of the polyvagal resources and always remember my friend, you are good God's beloved Son, and you, he is well pleased.