Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today, we are talking about how to create connection in any conversation because, as Johann Hari famously stated, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. We are created for connection with God, with others, within ourselves, and yet have you ever wished you could connect with someone, but it just felt impossible, whether in a friendship or in a marriage, or with someone you're trying to help, maybe with your kids or, if you're like me, with your clients? Oftentimes we feel a distance, a disconnection in relationships, and we're just powerless to try to create space for it. Now, we cannot force connection to happen, but we can create space for it, and in this episode I want to make it as practical as possible. Have you ever wished you could connect with a friend or a brother in recovery? Earlier today, I asked the Husband Material community what type of connection do you desire most? And two-thirds of the respondents said friendship. What you're going to learn here is going to apply directly into friendship. You can literally plug and play this into your friendships. You can also plug and play it into your marriage. If you struggle to emotionally connect with your wife or if you've been fighting a lot or if you've just been really withdrawn from each other, especially during conflict, especially if she's experiencing trauma because of your sexual behavior and hiding and lying, this is going to apply to marriage. It's also going to apply to getting to know women who you might be interested in dating. If you're single or if you have kids or if you have clients, this is really going to help.

Speaker 1: 2:42

At Husband Material, we talk a lot about curiosity and compassion. Those are some of our core values and they sound really nice in theory, but how do you do it? What is the step-by-step process for actually practicing curiosity and compassion? This is something I often teach my one-on-one clients. This is something that we emphasize in our groups and within Husband Material Academy. Tonight, this is going to be the 101 level training, as basic as I can do it.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I did an episode a while ago which I'm going to link to in the show notes, called Attunement the Key to Connection, which was really good and yet at the same time, even though it was teaching some really good skills, I found that it was still too advanced for some people. Some guys just need it to be very, very simple, very, very practical, because we grew up without connection, we grew up in a desert of emotional disconnection, where we didn't get the skills, we didn't receive the emotional attunement and empathy that we now don't know how to give to others. So while attunement and empathy sound really nice, in practice it is really difficult. So that's why today, I am going to give you some very, very practical advice about how to create connection in any conversation. Assuming that you speak the same language as the person and assuming that you have some time to have a conversation that could go deeper, these tools and practices will help. I cannot guarantee an outcome. What I can guarantee is that if you practice these things, you will grow. You will develop in ways that you may never have before.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Okay, you guys ready. You are going to learn how to use your eyes, how to use your face, how to use your voice and how to use your words to create connection. And we'll emphasize the words, because it's really helpful to have a script. But before we get to the words, let's just start with the nonverbal communication, because most communication is nonverbal. You'll notice that, as I'm talking to you, my voice is rising and falling, my face is shifting, my posture is changing. All of that is significant. All of that is communicating something, and you might not even be aware of what you're communicating with your eyes, with your face or with your voice.

Speaker 1: 5:19

There was this hilarious moment recently where I was talking about this episode with my wife, rebecca, and I was just talking about, like, how difficult it is for some of us to use our face, use our eyes, in a conversation. Let me tell you what I mean. Even if you say all the right things, even if you are trying so hard to connect, if your eyes are looking to the side or down or everywhere, but the person you're talking to, that is going to inhibit connection. So let's talk about the first thing. You should check when you're asking yourself am I creating space for connection with this person? Use your eyes, where are you looking? Where you look affects how you feel and it affects how the other person feels too. Even if you say something wonderfully empathetic and connecting, but you're looking off to the side or you're looking down, that is creating a wall. I was doing some role-playing with somebody the other day and he said something beautiful, but his eyes were all over the place. I mean, what does that communicate? It can communicate hiding. It can communicate lying, shame, fear, disconnection. So my first tip for you to create connection in any conversation be aware of your eyes. Where are you looking?

Speaker 1: 6:50

Eye contact is one of the quickest, most intense paths to intimacy. The eyes are the windows of the soul. At our retreats we do some eye contact exercises where you look into someone's eyes without saying anything. This is something you can do with a friend. This is something you can do with a romantic partner, with a wife, even with a kid. If you're a dad, guys, just take one minute to look into someone's eyes without saying anything. See what happens. If you want to see what I'm talking about, try it out. So I want to ask you guys how does eye contact affect you when someone is truly paying attention to you with their eyes and this can be formally.

Speaker 1: 7:45

If you decide to have like a one minute of eye contact without saying anything, or it could be informally, like in a conversation how does eye contact affect you? John says it's very powerful. Heath says it freaks me out. Yes, it does. It's vulnerable. It can be scary because it's intimate, but without vulnerability there is no connection. Vulnerability is different than transparency. Eye contact is vulnerable, so it makes sense that it freaks you out. Charlie says I feel nervous when I look into someone's eyes for too long, like I'm staring, and that's a good point. Just notice what you notice and if it feels uncomfortable you can change where you're looking for a little bit. Just naturally keep coming back to the person.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Here is another really important part of eye contact. If you make eye contact with somebody unbroken for a long period of time and your eyes are really intense, that can actually be frightening for the other person and it can feel invasive, almost intrusive, to have someone just looking at you Like that's really intense. So I would recommend softening your gaze. Soft eye contact is more connecting than the intense eye contact that can sometimes be scary and intimidating. David says you have a wonderfully expressive face. True, it's therapeutic just watching you. Well, thank you, david. And if you're just listening to the podcast, go on to YouTube and watch the video, because I think that will help to demonstrate a lot of what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 9:28

Tom says eye contact shows that you're interested in the individual you care. Glenn says I really appreciate receiving eye contact. I usually have to be intentional in order to maintain eye contact. Yeah, especially when you're feeling big emotions, it's tough. Simply being aware of where you are looking can be a big shift. Even if you're not fully able to make eye contact the way you would hope, just noticing what you notice without judgment, is huge. Just pay attention to where you're looking and if you can soft in your eye contact, even better. Alright. That's point one Use your eyes. The eyes are the windows to the soul. Point number two Use your face.

Speaker 1: 10:17

I don't have a sophisticated way of explaining this, but just ask yourself what is my face saying to this other person? What is my face saying? Is my face saying I'm glad to be with you? Is my face saying I'm so sorry for what you're going through? Is my face saying I'm really interested? Is my face saying I really have to think about that? You know what is your face saying in any conversation.

Speaker 1: 10:49

And do you struggle with RBF? If you don't know what RBF is, you can look it up. It stands for resting bitch face. Basically, the idea is, when you are in a relaxed state and you're not trying to offer any kind of facial expression, the default impression someone gets is that you're vaguely annoyed or judging them A feeling of contempt. I'll give you an example of RBF. If you're watching the video now, you can see my RBF. I also find that when I am online or looking at my phone or at a laptop, my face almost naturally goes to RBF. So if you are watching this or if you are with me live, just notice, like are you in RBF right now, like what's your face saying? It's really crazy how we naturally normally don't even realize that I'm giving off an impression that I'm not happy.

Speaker 1: 11:56

Sometimes in a conversation, rbf can be a trigger for me because I don't know how the person's feeling, I don't know what their face is saying. Sometimes I might take it personally, sometimes I might think, oh, something's wrong Not necessarily. But just realize that when you are talking to someone, your face is talking to and what do you want your face to be communicating? Just that simple awareness can go a long, long way. Austin says yes, I feel like I give RBF so often and maybe it's tied to my fear of being myself. Could be. So, rather than having a default facial expression of slight anger or annoyance toward the other person, consider how to use your face. The reason I'm saying this is that even if you say something kind and loving but your face is saying the opposite, it's not probably gonna lead to connection. If your eyes are going all over the place and your face is like a stone wall, it doesn't matter what you say. It's still not gonna fully create space for the connection that you want.

Speaker 1: 13:13

My third point is to use your voice, even without words. Specifically, try out some vocal bursts in a conversation. If you have never heard the term vocal bursts before, then welcome to the club. You are just like me. Before I read the book Polyvagal Theory and Therapy. We are going to have an awesome episode on Porn and Polyvagal Theory later this month, which I'm very excited about. Until then, here is a little preview from the book. This book by Deb Dana gives so many great insights and tips on creating connection between people. I'm going to read an excerpt from her book about connecting through vocal bursts. She writes the voice communicates a wealth of information.

Speaker 1: 14:18

Vocal bursts are the common sounds that populate our speech and convey emotion without words. Involuntary groans and sighs and voluntary expressions such as Ah, mmm, oh and huff are examples of vocal bursts. It's like mmm, that's a groan, that's a sigh Huff, that's another vocal burst. Research shows that when hearing a vocal burst, the listener picks up the speaker's emotion correctly, with a high degree of accuracy, and that vocal bursts are understood across languages and across species. There are at least 14 emotional states that the human voice can communicate without words. I want to repeat that there are at least 14 emotional states that the human voice can communicate without words.

Speaker 1: 15:14

So when you're in a conversation with somebody, you don't always have to interrupt with words to increase the sense of connection. You can use vocal bursts to show that you're really present, that you're listening, that you're following. Hmm, or oh. I often use nonverbal communication to show that I'm with somebody, like pumping my fist in the air or saying yeah, or like hmm, hmm, oh, aha, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. I'm just making stuff up now, but the point is there is so much emotion that you can share with somebody even without words, using your eyes, your face and your voice. So, wherever you are right now, hey, just try out a little vocal burst Like hmm, you know, what do you think that emotion is? Or like, oh, you know, each of these has a little nuance to it and you don't have to think about it too hard, just try it out. I love this last line from Deb Dana.

Speaker 1: 16:28

She also writes it is not uncommon for therapists to have moments of not knowing what to say or to worry they will say the wrong thing. If, when at a loss for words, you offer a vocal burst, it is highly likely that your client will receive your emotional intention. She says vocal bursts are common in our everyday speech, communicating both autonomic and emotional tone. Bring attention to these non-language cues of safety and danger that are automatically received and can be intentionally sent. Automatically received. They affect us even if we don't realize it. We can choose to use them for love, for kindness, for connection.

Speaker 1: 17:14

In any conversation, if you don't know what to say or the person's going on and on and you just want to show that you're with them, try a vocal burst. When I first read that, it blew my mind. I started using vocal bursts all the time. They're really helpful. They help to create connection. All right, let me give you some examples. So if somebody tells me that he was just sitting in traffic for three hours, I might go ugh. You can see what my face does. You can hear what my voice does that communicates. I'm with you in the drudgery and the frustration, or if someone is saying that they had a really hard day here, my voice kind of went down there. That descending tone communicates sadness and ascending tone, going up, would communicate excitement. So we've talked about three ways that you can check up on your nonverbal communication Use your eyes, use your face, use your voice and finally, use your words.

Speaker 1: 18:32

This is the part that I have been teaching my clients more than ever, because it's just not normal or natural to use your words in the way I'm going to show you. We don't naturally gravitate towards empathy or active listening or attunement. I am discovering more and more that what might come natural to some of us does not come natural to others, and we need training wheels. So now I'm going to give you some training wheels that I literally want you to try using in a conversation With a friend you want to get to know better, with a romantic partner or spouse, with somebody at your job. Maybe some of you're trying to help literally use these words. Okay, these phrases are wonderful. Again, without using your eyes, face and voice to support these words, they probably won't stick, and you also have to actually listen to somebody in order to earn the right to use these words. I'm going to give you the exact phrases that I use.

Speaker 1: 19:46

Here is the first and probably most useful phrase that you can use to create connection Tell me more. Three little words Tell me more. You might modify it to say can you tell me more? Or tell me more about that. Whenever someone is talking to you, if you answer by saying tell me more, you might not even have heard what they just said, but you're communicating that you're not itching to speak yourself and that you haven't just been waiting to give your answer or your reply to what they're saying. You really want to understand. You're showing that you want to get into their world. You want to take their perspective. You're not just here to give advice or to fix or to force something. You're welcoming whatever they're telling you at a deeper level and oftentimes we don't always share the depths of how we're really feeling, what we're really thinking it takes that invitation to tell me more for us to feel a little bit more comfortable, to go deeper, to share something that we would have kept to ourselves. And when you say, tell me more, the person might not respond with more vulnerability, but if you don't give them this invitation, they have no chance. If you don't give them this invitation, you don't know what you're missing out on. There is so much treasure and gold in a conversation that is on the other side of a tell me more. Later on in this episode we're going to do some role-playing and try it out. So tell me more. Tell me more. Please use that. Let me know how it goes.

Speaker 1: 21:38

Next phrase to create connection is what's it like, for example, what's it like for you when I forget to let you know that I'm coming home late from work? What's it like for you when I don't respond to your text message after two days? What was it like for you to share your story and then be rejected? What's it like for you to carry this secret? What's it like, man? I love that phrase. It's another way of saying tell me more, but targeting that for a specific area of life. What's it like for you when you show up to this live episode and you're not able to see anyone or hear anyone besides me? What's it like for you to have so many significant friendships online and so few in person? Here's another variation on that question how does that affect you With whatever somebody's sharing? How does that affect you? Tell me more. What's it like for you? How does that affect you? Those are some tried and true phrases. There's another one that I use a lot, especially when connecting the dots between our sexual brokenness and our specific story and our childhood experiences. That makes sense. Say that on Trigger Tuesday all the time. That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 23:23

This phrase works best when you can follow it up with some reasons why. If you say that makes sense, you know. Okay. If you say that makes sense because of what you just shared about this other thing, or that makes sense because when you were a kid this was your reality, or that makes sense. That you're feeling afraid because I have violated your trust so many times, that makes sense. That you're not ready to forgive me because I haven't earned your trust, that makes sense. That you're not able to meet up because work has been so stressful lately. The more becausees you can add to that makes sense, the better. That one might take a little bit of a risk for you to be able to back it up. Why does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 24:23

Some other little phrases you can use are it sounds like dot, dot, dot and then you repeat or paraphrase what the person is saying. I hear you saying dot dot, dot. Of course, this phrase requires you to really be listening and to be able to repeat what the other person said with their word choice, as closely as you can get it to exactly what they said. That might sound simple, but it's not easy to say I hear you saying and then just repeat exactly what they said is connecting. It's helpful. You can also say it seems like when you're noticing someone's face or someone's voice or just the energy in a conversation, like, hey, it seems like your voice got really quiet there, or it seems like you started looking down when you talked about your dad. Something simple like that.

Speaker 1: 25:18

A little non-judgemental observation, can go a long way. A phrase that I use a lot when I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the other person is it seems like something shifted I don't even know how to describe it, I might not even know like what's different or what exactly was the cue that let me know that this person is not doing well, or something is different between what they're saying and what their body is showing Something shifted. That one is really helpful. Finally, the last resort that can be very helpful when you don't really know what to say at all. Is that stood out to me? So you can just refer back to something the person said and say that stood out to me. You don't even have to have a thought about it, you don't have to have a question, you don't have to have an observation, just mention that stood out to me and the person almost always has a reply. They might ask why. Most of the time they won't. That stood out to me is a great non-judgmental, easy-to-use response.

Speaker 1: 26:40

These are some training wheels. I'm not saying that you need to look down at a list while you're talking to somebody, but just have some of these in the back of your mind. You can even make a little song using some of these phrases like Tell me more. Tell me more that makes sense. That makes sense. What's it like? What's it like? How does that affect you? Something to help you remember in the moment to try out one of these phrases Use your eyes, use your face, use your voice and use your words and you will create space for connection.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Matt is asking what if it doesn't make sense? That's a great opportunity for you to say hey, can you tell me more about that Help me understand. I feel like I'm not fully getting it. Even that admission is humble and vulnerable and invites connection. Our assumption is that if we could understand the other person fully, if we could see their story most clearly, then it would make sense. So the question I'm asking myself a lot internally, when someone's telling me their story with sexual brokenness is okay, what makes this make sense? The specific fantasy they're talking about, the specific arousal that continues to feel powerful, okay, what makes this make sense? There's always a reason, there's always a story, usually a combination of stories, and our job is to be detectives, to be listeners, to be learners, and some of these responses can be helpful.

Speaker 1: 28:29

Stanley says role play I'm having a bad day. Tell me more, stanley. What's it like for you when you have a bad day? How does that affect you? It sounds like you would like some advice about what to do when you're having a bad day, maybe not. I hear you saying that every once in a while you have a bad day. That stood out to me. See what I'm doing.

Speaker 1: 28:56

John says what are some recommended phrases when feeling attacked? To stay connected? Man, exactly what I just told you guys is perfect when you feel attacked, but you don't want to get defensive. You want to be empathetic. You want to be really understanding the other person's perspective. You can say I hear you saying, or tell me more, or what's it like for you? That will give you not only a chance to care for the other person even when you're feeling attacked by them. It'll also give you some cushion and maybe a little bit of breathing room before you maybe share how you're feeling or whatever you would like to say. It's probably going to be less charged up If you start out with some of these phrases, christian says.

Speaker 1: 29:42

There are times when I think someone might not be interested in the conversation. What do I do in a situation like this, that kind of situation? I would recommend using the language of parts. This is another great relational skill that can apply to any relationship friendship, dating, marriage, whatever. Here's what I would say in that kind of situation. Let's say it's with a friend. Hey man, I really enjoy our conversations and I appreciate your intentionality in continuing to get together. Part of me feels really excited to be telling you more about what I'm going through, and another part of me is feeling a little bit worried that maybe you might not be interested to hear more. Part of me is afraid to share that with you because of how people have responded to me in the past, and another part of me really wants to be brave and to be honest with you. So when you use that parts language, it is less aggressive, it's assertive, but it's not aggressive. It creates space for your feelings yet also doesn't impose them on the other person. So the script for that situation is part of me dot dot dot and another part of me dot dot dot. That's what I would do.

Speaker 1: 31:15

Christian says love that Awesome, try it out, use it, let me know how it goes. Rick says what's an effective way to find connection? When you may have little in common with an individual, but in a positive way you feel drawn to that person. In that kind of situation, whatever the person has communicated to you or whatever you know about the person, use that as a starting point. So if you know where they went to school, if you know where they grew up, if you know how old they are, if you know their relationship status, whatever you know about them, use some of these prompts like hey, tell me more about that, what's it like for you to be at your age. How does that affect you? Simple questions, curiosity.

Speaker 1: 32:02

When you use some of these tools, you might not feel connected to that person, but the odds are that person will probably feel more connected to you. You know, even if you're creating that space, the person might not have the skills or the desire to listen to you with curiosity and compassion. They may not be able or willing to go as deep or to become as close, and that's difficult. What you can do is choose how you want to relate to this person. Do you want to open up space for connection or do you need a little bit more protection? And you know what. It's okay to choose protection over connection. You can't connect with everybody. In fact, that would be very unwise. We need to choose who is worthy of our connection and who we want to take the risk to be vulnerable with, and also who has not earned the right to receive our vulnerability. In most cases, I think with most people, protection is more important. However, connection is such a core need that we need to find at least a few close companions, especially on the journey about growing porn, and I believe what I've told you today is really going to help with that.

Speaker 1: 33:44

Use your eyes, your face, your voice and your words See what happens. Austin says these are great tools, thank you. Michael says I can see how these will be effective. Stanley says how can I remember it every time? I'm gonna put a summary in the show notes on this recording. Write them down, put them in your wallet, put them on your phone on a note, make a song. If you really make a song, share it with me. I want to hear that song. Doug says I appreciate these tips.

Speaker 1: 34:15

Drew, now I need to read about polyvagal theory. Great phrases to use. Yes, polyvagal theory is profound and we have an episode later this month with John Kilmer about porn and polyvagal theory that you guys are really gonna like. It is a deep well of wisdom to draw from the polyvagal theory and therapy and I'll put the link to that in the show notes as well. You might consider writing some of these things down, maybe making a note using some of these tips about using your eyes, using your face, using your voice, using your words.

Speaker 1: 34:52

Try out some of these phrases like tell me more. That makes sense. That stood out to me. What's it like for you? How does that affect you? Seems like something shifted and just notice how the other person responds. There is no formula to guarantee an outcome.

Speaker 1: 35:14

There are always opportunities to grow as a listener, as someone who is becoming a safe container for others to share their story. That's what we're doing at Husband Material. We practice these things every week in HMA, at our coaching calls, at our community calls. Our job is to relate to each other with curiosity and compassion and some of these little tips are training wheels. There are tools for your toolbox. And if you would like some more tools for your toolbox to create deeper friendships with other men, get a deck of our Husband Material man cards. Go to getyourmancardscom and you can buy a deck of 52 questions that have been ranked in terms of their vulnerability, so the lower numbers are less vulnerable, the higher numbers are more vulnerable and these cards are really effective for helping men to open up and develop deeper friendships and create connection. Really helpful For couples. I would recommend Dear Young Married Couple card decks, which you can find at their website dearyoungmarriedcouplecom or in the links I'm going to put in the show notes.

Speaker 1: 36:31

We are building a community where this type of connection is the norm, not the exception. We are learning to practice curiosity and compassion and courage, we are giving each other the emotional attunement that we did not get when we were little boys. A lot of times we turned to porn to satisfy those unmet needs that were not ultimately sexual but were deeper than that. Learning these emotional and relational skills is equipping us to be able to give and receive what we didn't get when we were boys. That's a beautiful thing. It's helping us grow up into sexually and emotionally mature men of God. I know this is not easy. It takes practice, no matter how strong or weak you feel. In this area of creating connection, always remember you are God's beloved Son and you is well-pleased.