Speaker 1: 0:31

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today's episode on Grace got me so excited because it's so powerful. Sometimes it can feel like Grace is soft, or is that really going to help me change? Jonathan Darty has experienced the power of Grace. Over his 24 years of recovery and after 13 years of porn, which escalated into prostitutes and affairs, jonathan has experienced Grace and he oozes with this beautiful, powerful approach which really does change everything. Enjoy the episode. Today. I am with Jonathan Darty from Be Broke In Ministries. He's the author of Grace-Based Recovery and Grace-Based Transformation. Today we're talking about Grace and how a Grace-Based approach can help you guys continue to outgrow porn. Welcome, jonathan.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Hey Drew, it's great to be with you.

Speaker 1: 1:45

You too. What do people need to know about you?

Speaker 2: 1:48

Well, I'm a husband, I'm a father of three kids that are grown, and I was honored to be able to start this ministry Be Broke In Ministries back in 2003. So we have passed the 20-year mark and it's been amazing to be in this space for that long. And what I hope to share today is just what I've learned over that period of time, especially about this issue of Grace being the absolute foundation of real life transformation and recovery. I mean, I've experienced it in my own life. I know you have too. Drew is like you know. You can sometimes get to a certain point on this journey where it's so important to remember okay, what was the foundation, where did it start? And I hope that as we get into this conversation, it will start clicking with guys to realize, oh, it's not about all the activities that are going to actually transform my life if it is not rooted in Grace, if it's not rooted in the grace of God. So that's my most passionate subject that I love to talk about is the grace of God.

Speaker 1: 2:57

Awesome. What is Grace?

Speaker 2: 3:00

Yeah, so just in a very basic way, like the simplest definition is, it is undeserved kindness. That would be applicable to anyone who just wants to have a definition of grace. If you want to get more specific towards God's grace, it is the free gift of that undeserved kindness through his son, jesus. So there is the worth that he placed on us, was placed on us in Jesus. I tell people all the time, if you really want to understand Grace and how much God thinks of you or what he thinks of you, look to the cross. That's your worth, that's your value to God. You are worth the life of his only son. And so, more specifically applied in our Christian faith, is that Grace is the gift of undeserved favor and kindness and privilege that we get through Jesus.

Speaker 2: 3:55

And the key element, I think, to understanding what that definition means is we have to understand that it is a gift. I've noticed over time, especially working in recovery ministry, where there is there's a lot of hard work that has to go into recovery. We have to keep coming back to that understanding that it's a gift, that Grace is a gift, because sometimes guys start to falsely assume, because there's a lot of work in recovery, that that work is somehow earning me something before God, like somehow I'm gaining something because I'm doing all this work. And I love the old quote from Dallas Willard who said Grace is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to earning. And so we have to keep that gift mentality around, this notion of Grace.

Speaker 1: 4:43

Right. As I'm going through recovery and thinking of, oh my gosh, all the things I need to do, it's so easy to take a posture of achieving instead of a posture of receiving Right. I hear you saying that, in order to support all of this effort and action we need to take, grace needs to be our foundation.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 5:11

And I was just having a meeting with a group of guys last night and we were talking about Ephesians 2, 8 through 10, which talks clearly about we've been saved by Grace.

Speaker 2: 5:23

It's not of work so that nobody can boast, and then right after that it says that but we are created in Christ Jesus for good works which he prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Speaker 2: 5:34

And we started talking about do you realize that? Okay, when we apply this to recovery, can you start to see all the work that is necessary, all the good work that is necessary, as also a gift from God? Like, can you see that as a grace? And so when you're realizing, hey, I need to set up boundaries, I need to do these things, I've got to seek to repair these relationships, I need to humble myself before those that I've hurt, I need to do all these kinds of activities, I need to get into a group, I need to see some counseling, rather than looking at that as, like you said, something that I'm now trying to achieve an outcome, what if I look at all of that as that's a gift too? God has gifted me the ability to do all this work so that I can actually be a better reflection of Him in bearing His image.

Speaker 1: 6:21

Amen. So, if you had to summarize it, what's your definition of grace-based recovery?

Speaker 2: 6:28

Yeah. So it's taking that idea of the gift of God, that we have been given this gift and primarily, as that pertains to our identity of bearing His image, that that is a free gift. And then now can we take that and apply it to all of the process and the work of recovery. And this is where we like to say that we want to create grace-based environments so that when you step into recovery, the first thing you're going to know about grace as it is applied to you is that you are worth the life of God's Son and that can never change. So really, most of what grace-based recovery boils down to is this foundation of your identity being of great worth in God's eyes. That can't change.

Speaker 2: 7:13

So therefore, as you get on this sort of the reality of the roller coaster of recovery where, man, you got some up days and you got some down days, and especially at the beginning, it's real choppy. I mean it can be really challenging at the beginning because you're breaking away from a whole old pattern of life. Everything that's familiar to you is going away and you're entering into things that are very unfamiliar. We have to keep that foundation that says who you are in God's eyes cannot change based on whether you have an up day or a down day, and so that, to me, is what grace-based recovery is. It's continuing to have that singular baseline that says your life is a gift, your worth is a gift, and it can't change. Now let's get busy with the work of recovery.

Speaker 1: 7:58

Yeah, and it can be so seemingly impossible to believe that on the down days. Can you give an example of one of your down days when it was difficult to accept God's grace?

Speaker 2: 8:14

Oh yeah, I remember the first really big down day that I had in my own recovery came at day 108. I'd gone 107 days without any kind of acting out whatever. And for your listeners and viewers, I mean, you have to understand I was coming out of a 13-year full-blown porn and sex addiction where it included everything from pornography to prostitutes, to all kinds of illicit affair. I mean it was awful, and so I was deeply entangled in this whole world. So for me to go two days in a row without acting out would have been a miracle. And yet, by God's grace, man, something radical was changing in my life, because I went 107 days without acting out and then day 108 hit. I mean, this was over 20 years ago, so I don't even remember the exact behavior that happened I've probably masturbation or something like that, just a baseline behavior that I said I wasn't gonna cross. And I remember just feeling crush, deflated, like okay, well, what do I do now? Cause now I'm a failure, right, and that's the whole. That's the language that Shane brings in this whole idea of well, now, because you did this, guess what? You're unchangeable everything.

Speaker 2: 9:25

And I remember going into my counselor's office either the next day or close to that time and just kind of man I'm wearing my shame and he was gentle, but he was direct and he was like, hey, so what did you expect? You're learning to walk. And he put it in that context of essentially saying you're learning a whole new way to live. And he said did you as a baby, did you learn to walk without ever missing a step? And when he started kind of walking me through that and then he brought it back to your value before God did not change because of this, it's like I felt this wave of grace that started to kind of wash off that shame and say you know what? This isn't about my performance being the indicator of what God thinks about me or my value.

Speaker 2: 10:20

And that was really where I think the roots of grace really started to take hold in my recovery, to where I realized, okay, now I can learn from this stumble rather than think it is like I'm a failure, it's defining of me, and that created a whole new mindset towards challenges and difficulties and even stumblings along the way. Is I gained more of a learning posture because of grace, realizing my value can't change before God. So when I have these moments where I drift off and stumble instead of going. That's it, it's over. I can look at that and go. I can learn from a mistake. So the next time that same challenge comes up, I have different tools to address it with.

Speaker 1: 11:02

Yeah, amen. Feedback, not failure. Exactly. Yeah, that is so de-shaming and it's so lovely to know that God loves me, no matter what. There's nothing I can do to increase that or to take it away. But in the moment of a big relapse some guys might think, well, that's a soft approach, that's not really taking it seriously enough. What would you say to that person?

Speaker 2: 11:35

This idea of okay. So what would I prefer in being a father to my kid? Would I prefer to be harsh and manhandling and controlling in order to just get the behavior I want? Or do I so value and love this relationship with my child that in all of their stumblings and up and down, I am going to have a grace approach that still contains within it discipline and correction and those kinds of things. There's no harshness, there's no unkindness, there's mercy, there's grace, because the relationship is so much more valuable than just perfect behavior, and I think that's the approach that God has when we think about grace. And so in that way, grace is not actually soft. Grace is saying I so value you and this relationship that I want to help you walk through this so that you could understand why these things are harmful to your life and why it's not good for you. I don't want to just force the quote, unquote right behavior just because it's right, because then you lose the dynamic and the principle, you lose the relationship, you lose really what's at the heart of recovery. In the first place, it's relational, and so that's why grace has to be the foundation, because grace fundamentally is relational. So I don't know if that answers your question.

Speaker 2: 13:02

But for the guy that's struggling with saying, oh, that seems too soft, it's like actually I look at it as like that's the most powerful approach for actual transformation. Because guess what, drew, you and I both know, let's just be honest you can by force of your will for a period of time say, okay, I'm just gonna do fill in the blank and we can whiten up the behavior. And guess what? I've never met a man yet that's gone for 30 days. Whiten up my behavior that feels as if their life is more enriched and fulfilled and there's real peace in their soul. No, and we're gonna get into this, they're in a performance based management system that is actually gonna create more stress and more disconnection in their lives than this grace based approach. So I would say to that person who's struggling with the idea of feeling like grace is too soft, I'm like no. Grace is the most powerful means by which you're gonna actually experience transformation.

Speaker 1: 13:55

That's so good. Grace has changed me more than rules and anger or fear ever could, and I still need it. I feel like we never outgrow our need for grace. We never graduate from grace.

Speaker 2: 14:10

No, yeah, in fact, what I would say is I tell people this all the time, the older I get. I had this wrong belief, I think, when I was a kid, about heaven, like as if heaven is just this static destination because now we're perfect. The older I get and the more I'm on this walk journey with Jesus and this relational journey with God, I'm thinking no, heaven is just the eternal continuation of this grace journey, of this growth. Do I really think that somehow the dynamic of the relationship, or the learning, or the creativity, or the beauty and the wonder is just gonna cease once I get to heaven? No, so I think of it this way. You're absolutely right. We're never gonna graduate from grace, even in heaven. We're gonna be fully realizing in a whole new way, moment by moment.

Speaker 2: 14:58

What does all of this mean to my life and my relationship with God?

Speaker 1: 15:02

Yet even knowing intellectually about God's grace, we can still drift into this performance approach. So what are some of the common ways that we get away from grace?

Speaker 2: 15:18

Yeah, so in the book. I actually do put a little table in the book that says the grace-based recovery versus performance-based recovery, and there's several elements in there. One is earlier mentioned about reframing stumblings and relapses into opportunities to learn. In a grace-based approach you can do that Performance-based approach. Guess what those stumblings are? An identity statement. You're absolutely a failure. You don't have any opportunity to explore those because you did not perform. And so I think the performance-based approach and here's the thing that's so subtle about it is because our human nature is automatically bent towards performance.

Speaker 2: 16:04

You're gonna have to fight against that in order to really be kind of maintaining a grace-based approach. For example, try to think of anything in our world today in which you are valued simply for yourself. Everything is attached to performance. Your work, your salary, I mean, you know all kinds of stuff. Your worth is attached to your performance, and so it's a foreign concept to our human nature to be able to say but you're telling me that I am worth the highest possible value, which is Jesus at all times Like, and there's nothing that can take that down. It does take a long time. It takes some training.

Speaker 2: 16:50

I think also one of the things I wanted to mention earlier when I hit day 108, that is really important to understand is guess what? I needed an outside voice. I needed that counselor. We need groups, we need those who've been on the journey longer to speak those truths in our lives, because when we hit those moments where we go, we're either latching onto performance or we are the shame lies are overwhelming us. That's where we need the rallying of the troops, so to speak, to say, ok, those who are maybe in a deeper understanding of grace or in a better place right now got to speak those truths into our lives when we're there, because it's not as if you can just flip a switch and go oh, I listened to this podcast by Drew Boa today and they talked about grace and I'm just going to flip the grace, switch on and now, from now on, I will have this permanent, never-changing belief about myself that I'm worth the life of the Son of God. It's a daily, ongoing reminder that has to happen.

Speaker 2: 17:45

I think there's a reason why there's a major theme throughout all of the scripture of remembering.

Speaker 2: 17:52

God constantly says hey, remember, remember, remember when I did this, remember my faithfulness here, remember when I never left you, remember when I kept my promise, and so we need to do that ourselves as well when we're attaching to a performance-based system. The other thing too is, I think, in order to be able to distinguish whether you are in a grace-based environment or a performance-based environment, the simplest way to do that is to determine what is being stated in this environment about my identity and my worth. Those are the fundamental kind of baselines of to be able to kind of easily understand am I in a grace-based environment or performance-based environment? Performance-based is going to always be hey, your worth and even your identity are on this kind of sliding scale, based, of course, on behavior. Grace-based environment is saying, hey, wherever your behavior is, your worth and your identity as an image bearer of God cannot change. And I think in that environment then you have much more freedom to get busy getting work on recovery, because you're like I've got a constant there.

Speaker 1: 18:58

In a typical accountability group, it's so easy to feel superior to everybody else or inferior to everybody else based on how I'm doing in my behavior. That's not a grace-based environment.

Speaker 2: 19:12

That is not a grace-based environment. And that's where I think it's almost like you have to kind of come to a collective agreement. When you're in the group that says, listen, we're all a mess, we're all imperfect and none of us are the Son of God, and yet in Him we have absolutely equal value, equal worth. What do they say? The ground is level at the foot of the cross. So you almost need a collective agreement at the beginning that says wherever we are in our messiness, it is not comparing us to each other, it is comparing ourselves to the Son of God, and we all fall short and yet at the same time he lifts us all up to that value.

Speaker 2: 19:52

And so wherever we are kind of in our own imperfections and our own brokenness and I think what that does I mean I've seen this happen more times than not, drew is when you have that kind of environment where there's almost like this collective agreement that says we're going to keep Jesus as the standard and grace as our worth it's like guys will rally around each other in that they're not trying to put each other down. In fact, it's more like when a brother is having a bad week. In that grace-based environment it's not about trying to get him to perform. It's about saying hey, brother, you are loved, you are valued. Nothing changed how God feels about you. You absolutely are a beloved Son, and so I think that's really important to have that kind of agreement in the group.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Right, and then allowing for curiosity and compassion, so that we can process what happened and realize that I mean we all sin every single day.

Speaker 2: 20:55

And I think the beauty about a grace-based approach is it is going to change the mindset and the mission A lot of times. In a performance-based system there are very definite destinations that are mapped out. In other words, ok, you've got baseline behaviors that you're not supposed to cross and then you're supposed to do this, and so it can very easily slip into this legalistic performance. Hey, look at me, and I'm totally not opposed to any format of recovery. So when I say this, I'm not throwing 12-step groups under the bus, but the whole idea of my one-year chip or my this and that, where it can seem as if it's static, it's like I've reached this point, whereas I think in a grace-based approach it's saying I have always got room to learn and to grow, and so the mission is actually about movement, not did I reach this particular point.

Speaker 2: 21:59

You and I both know, drew, to get to a point where you're no longer doing those acting out behaviors is really kind of recovery 101.

Speaker 2: 22:11

And there's like a thousand other levels after that, and so in some ways we absolutely wanna celebrate when a guy truly has become disentangled from those baseline behaviors and is no longer practicing them. But in some ways I try to encourage guys in a grace-based approach that says, hey, praise God. You know, that's really the beginning of your real recovery, like in terms of the real transformation, the fruit of joy and peace and community, and all of that really starts to accelerate and grow once you do get disentangled just from the behavioral side of things, and so grace allows for this idea of you're always gonna be on a growth mission. I've been on my personal journey for over, you know, for 24 years, and let me tell you there's a lot more that I have to learn. You know, in some ways I feel like I'm just scratching the surface of what does it really mean to be a man of God and reflect him well, and in my experience it's not a linear path.

Speaker 1: 23:14

It is much more cyclical in the sense that maybe we keep coming back to the same place multiple times, but each time it's a little deeper. Each time I'm not the same and God has something new for me. We wish it would look like a stock market graph that maybe goes up and down a little bit and hopefully goes up, but it just doesn't work that way, does it?

Speaker 2: 23:39

No, and I think sometimes it breaks down into seasons where sometimes there's a season where there's just one thing that you're working on at multiple levels. I also think of it this way you know, you think of Jesus when he was asked what the greatest commandment was right Love God and love your neighbor. If you hear that once and you engage that once in your life, do you think you've got the full, comprehensive knowledge of what that looks like in every season of your life? No, even that, like the basic big, like this is what Jesus wants you to be focused on. There are so many layers to that. For one thing, I don't always have the same neighbors. You know life changes, people move. So in some ways you've got a whole new dynamic of what's it like to love this neighbor and then what's it like to love this neighbor.

Speaker 2: 24:25

And so I think even the way that God has constructed the commandment that we are to be focused on, it's like there's always gonna be movement in that and always gonna be growth. So we should apply the same to our recoveries. When we think about okay, let's take, for instance, having healthy boundaries I mean healthy boundaries are part of recovery Do you think that they're always gonna look exactly the same in every season of your life. If you do, you've gotten stuck, I think, in your recovery because it's interesting over the years I have actually felt my boundaries get tighter, tighter meaning it's gone beyond just behavior and I'm realizing, you know what. There are boundaries that I need to put on my mind. There are boundaries that I need to have for my heart. God says guard your heart, for out of it flow the springs of life and so, in some ways, the journey of I guess you could call it holiness, you're gonna have even boundaries change, because you're saying I wanna be, I wanna keep growing and keep learning.

Speaker 1: 25:28

That is so, so true that our boundaries need to change. It's so true that, in different seasons, the challenges we're up against are not gonna be the same. And so maybe sometimes grace sounds like saying man. I'm up against something I've never faced before. I'm not who I could be, I'm not who I should be, and I'm also not who I used to be.

Speaker 2: 25:56

Yeah and I think sometimes, when people think of grace again thinking maybe that it's either soft or maybe thinking that you know, this journey is about being free, right?

Speaker 2: 26:06

So a lot of times we talk about freedom and I think sometimes the way guys misconstrue freedom, even in a grace-based environment, is they think, okay, taking boundaries again, for instance.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Okay, I'm gonna set these boundaries and then someday I'll be free, so I can remove all those boundaries. And that's why I wanted to share that after 24 years, I feel like actually my boundaries have gotten tighter, and it's because when you get inside the lines that God has drawn, you actually realize that there is an infinite depth of intimacy that you can start to build with the Creator, who is inside those boundaries. So there's a limited number of stupid things that you can do outside the boundaries. When you're inside, you keep going further and further and further in, and it actually increases joy, it increases peace, and so we've got to. That's another kind of upside down way of thinking grace versus performance, or even this grace as it applies to freedom. Freedom is not the removal of all boundaries. I believe that freedom is going more and more into the relationship with God, who brings all of that value and all of that experience of true freedom and true peace and true joy inside those boundaries.

Speaker 1: 27:25

I love that, Jonathan. What are some false ideas about grace-based recovery?

Speaker 2: 27:32

Yeah, well, I think sometimes guys think that we mentioned one a little bit earlier. This idea that grace is sort of this license Sounds to me like man. When you're saying there's nothing I could ever do that could cause God to love me any less or change my value or worth, doesn't that just give people a license to just keep doing what they're doing? Well, thankfully, this was a question that the apostle Paul expected when he was teaching in Romans on the understanding of the freedom that grace gives to us. When he says in Romans 6, he says I know the question you're gonna ask Well, if grace abounds, why don't I just keep sinning? Should I just? Can I just keep sinning more and more? And of course his response is are you nuts? I mean, that's in the Greek, you know, are you nuts? Of course you don't wanna keep doing that, because if you have an understanding of what this whole death, burial and resurrection with Christ means, you have been raised to a new life, and that new life does not want to sin, and so therefore, we've gotta tap into that, and I think a grace-based approach is saying when you understand that your value can't change, you're gonna start digging into this place in which the Holy Spirit resides, in which the Spirit of God is residing and saying I want you to live the way I made you to live, which is to experience the fullness of joy and the fullness of freedom and like the fullness if I can put it in these terms the fullness of real pleasure. When you start tapping into that, you realize oh, of course I don't wanna sin, of course I don't wanna do these things, but it's grace that gets you there. Guess what If you'd keep trying to say it's about me keepin' the rules? You will just continue to limp along, continue to be miserable, probably continue to go back to the well that you've gone to over and over and over again. That doesn't satisfy. And so grace is not a license to keep on sinning, because grace is what tells you what your true identity is, and your true identity in Christ is somebody who doesn't wanna sin. And so we've gotta keep pursuing that. This is the biggie. This is the biggie that guys don't understand.

Speaker 2: 29:43

Grace-based recovery is not easy. So many guys that hear the idea of grace and that it's free, and that it's a gift and there's nothing you could do to change your value, and they start thinkin' that's so easy. And then I always challenge guys. I say what is the first primary thing that is required for you to really enter in to that grace, to really enter in to what it means to live according to that? And the first thing that has to happen is you have to set aside your pride. Well, guess what? That's why grace-based recovery isn't easy, because we want to say, but hey, I resisted that temptation or I did that, or I earned that chip or whatever, and it's like pride, pride, pride, pride.

Speaker 2: 30:35

And so the reason grace-based recovery is hard is because grace is a gift. Then the fullness of every good thing in my life, including all the good steps on my recovery, they're all a gift from God. God gets the full glory. So when I say that temptation came into my life and I resisted it, I have to remember oh, god said that he's the one that promises a way of escape for every temptation. So that was actually a grace of God that he gave me a way out. Oh, but I took it. Well, guess what? Even the faith that I have, he gives it to me. So there's a sense in which, when grace starts to cover everything in your life, you realize, man, my pride really wants to come up, and that's why grace-based recovery is not easy, and yet it's the best way. It's the only way to really experience true life transformation.

Speaker 1: 31:28

If you embrace this approach to recovery what's the result.

Speaker 2: 31:34

I believe the result is you actually begin to experience all that fruit of the Spirit that he plants in our lives. You experience an increasing measure of love, you experience an increasing measure of joy and peace. I would also say that one of the results is you actually begin to understand how to engage in authentic relationships. I know you've mentioned this before and a lot of people in this space have mentioned it before that the opposite of addiction is not abstinence, it's connection, it's community, it's relational, and I think a lot of guys can get that on an intellectual level and then they try to achieve that in a performance-based system and it never works, because relationships, by true relationships, like healthy relationships, are not mechanical. You can't just sort of schedule this or set a. It's not like your car that you can say, hey, as long as I got all the fluid levels where they need to be, everything's going to run just fine. It is way more organic than that, it's messier than that, and so, in a grace-based approach, I think the main point, so to speak, is you get to this place where you realize that the goal is something that is growing. The goal is increasing joy, increasing love, but the goal is also I'm learning how to be relational and so therefore I'm always in movement.

Speaker 2: 32:59

There's always growth that's happening, and so I know that sometimes that's not the answer that guys want to hear, because maybe they've done a lot of work to this point and they realize this is hard. This is hard work, but when you can step back and go, this hard work has done nothing to change my value. I'm at a constant 10 before God. Can I actually also start to find some rest in this and not feel like I've got to go at a pace that's 1,000 miles an hour? Can I actually start to settle in and go? What does God want me to do today? How can I be faithful today, realizing there may be 1,000 more steps ahead of me, but what's the one today? And by His grace, I can step into that. I can connect with the people that are on this journey with me and I think over time you start to experience again those increasing measures of joy and peace.

Speaker 1: 33:50

Amen. It is so much bigger than freedom from the old behaviors.

Speaker 2: 33:56

I think the key element and you talk about this all the time, and this is what I love about your ministry is the goal is not about stopping something. The goal is actually about engaging someone. When that shift started to happen, it was like good fuel to the fire of my recovery. It's like all of a sudden, so many things started to click into place. Oh, this is a whole new lifestyle, this is a whole new way to live. This is a whole new kingdom that I'm living in now, and so I think if your listeners and your viewers can get that one major shift that grace-based recovery is trying to help you get, that's it. It's not about stopping a negative behavior. It's about learning to engage someone and the someone's are God brothers in this journey If you're married your wife, your family and engaging them in a new way, a way that says I understand who I am in Christ and understand who you are, and now we can engage in an honest way. That's moving forward.

Speaker 1: 34:58

Absolutely, and also engaging myself in the parts of myself that I've neglected or that I have hated.

Speaker 2: 35:06

Yeah, I don't have to be scared anymore of going there right.

Speaker 2: 35:10

Right, because if I know that grace is telling me what it tells me about my worth and my value, because God demonstrated His grace through Christ, then all those places that I've closed off in myself and I said we're never going there, I'm not open in that closet door. We can go there because it's like, oh, the reason I wouldn't go there before is because I thought this was going to damage something in my relationship with God, or I thought this was going to confirm all those shame lies that are part of what's been residing in that place. When grace speaks, you can go. Okay, let's open all the doors, because there's absolutely nothing that I could know about myself. Also, there's absolutely nothing that others could know about me. That's going to diminish that. It gives you a boldness in recovery. You start to be willing to share your story with others and all those broken places because you're going hey, what can you do to me? God says he loves me and period, that's it.

Speaker 1: 36:04

That really does sound good. I feel challenged to keep moving into that because it can get discouraging sometimes and exhausting. Jonathan, what is your favorite thing about freedom from porn? Oh man.

Speaker 2: 36:21

Now here's where I'm kind of a word nerd when somebody asked me what my favorite is now. Technically, favorite means only one, but there's too many, I think. For me, one of my favorite things about freedom from porn is just what I just mentioned there's no more need to be afraid, like I don't have to be afraid Now. I've had an ongoing struggle and battle with anxieties and fear my whole life and yet when I come back to the gospel, when I come back to grace, I go what do I need to fear? There's absolutely no fear. The other thing, too, that I love is the real freedom, the true freedom from those impulses and those behaviors.

Speaker 2: 37:09

One of my favorite things to tell guys on this journey is you know, listen, on the front end you're just trying to get away from those behaviors and that's good, and I think those changes can happen based in this grace-based approach. But what I really love to tell guys is did you know that if you keep going on that journey, god can actually change your desires, god can actually change your heart to where you do not have the same inclination? Guys, I get tempted today, not in exactly the same ways that I used to, but I still get tempted today, but did you know, because of the work that God has done on my heart, I don't have the same kind of response to those temptations as I did 25 years ago. And that may be my. If I really do want to pick one, that may be.

Speaker 2: 37:59

My favorite thing is that God can actually truly transform your heart to where, like I mentioned before, when you understand who you are and you understand that who you are somebody that doesn't want to sin your desires can start to match up with that. And then, finally, one of the biggest things that I just love about not being entangled in pornography anymore is the relationships I have gotten to meet so many amazing people. I mean it's funny because getting called into this kind of ministry at first I wrestled with God and I didn't want to do it, and I'm so glad that you know he kept pushing me in this way, because I have gotten to experience relationships that I never would have been able to experience had I not gone through this recovery process and inner recovery environments. And I just want to say to your listeners and viewers you are my favorite people, amen.

Speaker 1: 38:53

I totally agree.

Speaker 2: 38:54

Broken, sexually messed up guys are my favorite people and I couldn't have said that 25 years ago because I was looking at my own sexual brokenness and going I'm not even my favorite person. There's no way I want to be around anybody else like me. But again, when you get into a grace-based environment that says we have equal value before God, now let's start learning how to be brothers and sharpen one another and move towards greater integrity.

Speaker 1: 39:20

Man, that's so good, Jonathan, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 39:23

Thank you, Drew. I appreciate you creating the space for us to be able to talk about grace.

Speaker 1: 39:27

Why not? I mean, is there anything better to talk about? Probably nothing, and we'll probably keep talking about it and, hopefully, experiencing it forever. Guys, if you want to check out Jonathan's books and his organization. Go down to the show notes, and I've included all the links there. Again, jonathan, thank you so much and thank you God for the beauty of the grace that we get to receive. Always remember you are God's beloved Son. In you he is well pleased.