Creating Connection in Conversations

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to the Husband Material podcast , where we help Christian men outgrow porn . Why ? So you can change your brain , heal your heart and save your relationship . My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go . Today , we are talking about how to create connection in any conversation because , as Johann Hari famously stated , the opposite of addiction is not sobriety , it's connection . We are created for connection with God , with others , within ourselves , and yet have you ever wished you could connect with someone , but it just felt impossible , whether in a friendship or in a marriage , or with someone you're trying to help , maybe with your kids or , if you're like me , with your clients ? Oftentimes we feel a distance , a disconnection in relationships , and we're just powerless to try to create space for it . Now , we cannot force connection to happen , but we can create space for it , and in this episode I want to make it as practical as possible . Have you ever wished you could connect with a friend or a brother in recovery ? Earlier today , I asked the Husband Material community what type of connection do you desire most ? And two-thirds of the respondents said friendship . What you're going to learn here is going to apply directly into friendship . You can literally plug and play this into your friendships . You can also plug and play it into your marriage . If you struggle to emotionally connect with your wife or if you've been fighting a lot or if you've just been really withdrawn from each other , especially during conflict , especially if she's experiencing trauma because of your sexual behavior and hiding and lying , this is going to apply to marriage . It's also going to apply to getting to know women who you might be interested in dating . If you're single or if you have kids or if you have clients , this is really going to help .

Speaker 1 2:12

At Husband Material , we talk a lot about curiosity and compassion . Those are some of our core values and they sound really nice in theory , but how do you do it ? What is the step-by-step process for actually practicing curiosity and compassion ? This is something I often teach my one-on-one clients . This is something that we emphasize in our groups and within Husband Material Academy . Tonight , this is going to be the 101 level training , as basic as I can do it .

Speaker 1 2:45

I did an episode a while ago which I'm going to link to in the show notes , called Attunement the Key to Connection , which was really good and yet at the same time , even though it was teaching some really good skills , I found that it was still too advanced for some people . Some guys just need it to be very , very simple , very , very practical , because we grew up without connection , we grew up in a desert of emotional disconnection , where we didn't get the skills , we didn't receive the emotional attunement and empathy that we now don't know how to give to others . So while attunement and empathy sound really nice , in practice it is really difficult . So that's why today , I am going to give you some very , very practical advice about how to create connection in any conversation . Assuming that you speak the same language as the person and assuming that you have some time to have a conversation that could go deeper , these tools and practices will help . I cannot guarantee an outcome . What I can guarantee is that if you practice these things , you will grow . You will develop in ways that you may never have before .

Speaker 1 4:03

Okay , you guys ready . You are going to learn how to use your eyes , how to use your face , how to use your voice and how to use your words to create connection . And we'll emphasize the words , because it's really helpful to have a script . But before we get to the words , let's just start with the nonverbal communication , because most communication is nonverbal . You'll notice that , as I'm talking to you , my voice is rising and falling , my face is shifting , my posture is changing . All of that is significant . All of that is communicating something , and you might not even be aware of what you're communicating with your eyes , with your face or with your voice .

Speaker 1 4:49

There was this hilarious moment recently where I was talking about this episode with my wife , rebecca , and I was just talking about , like , how difficult it is for some of us to use our face , use our eyes , in a conversation . Let me tell you what I mean . Even if you say all the right things , even if you are trying so hard to connect , if your eyes are looking to the side or down or everywhere , but the person you're talking to , that is going to inhibit connection . So let's talk about the first thing . You should check when you're asking yourself am I creating space for connection with this person ? Use your eyes , where are you looking ? Where you look affects how you feel and it affects how the other person feels too . Even if you say something wonderfully empathetic and connecting , but you're looking off to the side or you're looking down , that is creating a wall . I was doing some role-playing with somebody the other day and he said something beautiful , but his eyes were all over the place . I mean , what does that communicate ? It can communicate hiding . It can communicate lying , shame , fear , disconnection . So my first tip for you to create connection in any conversation be aware of your eyes . Where are you looking ?

Speaker 1 6:20

Eye contact is one of the quickest , most intense paths to intimacy . The eyes are the windows of the soul . At our retreats we do some eye contact exercises where you look into someone's eyes without saying anything . This is something you can do with a friend . This is something you can do with a romantic partner , with a wife , even with a kid . If you're a dad , guys , just take one minute to look into someone's eyes without saying anything . See what happens . If you want to see what I'm talking about , try it out . So I want to ask you guys how does eye contact affect you when someone is truly paying attention to you with their eyes and this can be formally .

Speaker 1 7:15

If you decide to have like a one minute of eye contact without saying anything , or it could be informally , like in a conversation how does eye contact affect you ? John says it's very powerful . Heath says it freaks me out . Yes , it does . It's vulnerable . It can be scary because it's intimate , but without vulnerability there is no connection . Vulnerability is different than transparency . Eye contact is vulnerable , so it makes sense that it freaks you out . Charlie says I feel nervous when I look into someone's eyes for too long , like I'm staring , and that's a good point . Just notice what you notice and if it feels uncomfortable you can change where you're looking for a little bit . Just naturally keep coming back to the person .

Speaker 1 8:00

Here is another really important part of eye contact . If you make eye contact with somebody unbroken for a long period of time and your eyes are really intense , that can actually be frightening for the other person and it can feel invasive , almost intrusive , to have someone just looking at you Like that's really intense . So I would recommend softening your gaze . Soft eye contact is more connecting than the intense eye contact that can sometimes be scary and intimidating . David says you have a wonderfully expressive face . True , it's therapeutic just watching you . Well , thank you , david . And if you're just listening to the podcast , go on to YouTube and watch the video , because I think that will help to demonstrate a lot of what I'm saying .

Speaker 1 8:58

Tom says eye contact shows that you're interested in the individual you care . Glenn says I really appreciate receiving eye contact . I usually have to be intentional in order to maintain eye contact . Yeah , especially when you're feeling big emotions , it's tough . Simply being aware of where you are looking can be a big shift . Even if you're not fully able to make eye contact the way you would hope , just noticing what you notice without judgment , is huge . Just pay attention to where you're looking and if you can soft in your eye contact , even better . Alright . That's point one Use your eyes . The eyes are the windows to the soul . Point number two Use your face .

Speaker 1 9:46

I don't have a sophisticated way of explaining this , but just ask yourself what is my face saying to this other person ? What is my face saying ? Is my face saying I'm glad to be with you ? Is my face saying I'm so sorry for what you're going through ? Is my face saying I'm really interested ? Is my face saying I really have to think about that ? You know what is your face saying in any conversation .

Speaker 1 10:19

And do you struggle with RBF ? If you don't know what RBF is , you can look it up . It stands for resting bitch face . Basically , the idea is , when you are in a relaxed state and you're not trying to offer any kind of facial expression , the default impression someone gets is that you're vaguely annoyed or judging them A feeling of contempt . I'll give you an example of RBF . If you're watching the video now , you can see my RBF . I also find that when I am online or looking at my phone or at a laptop , my face almost naturally goes to RBF . So if you are watching this or if you are with me live , just notice , like are you in RBF right now , like what's your face saying ? It's really crazy how we naturally normally don't even realize that I'm giving off an impression that I'm not happy .

Speaker 1 11:25

Sometimes in a conversation , rbf can be a trigger for me because I don't know how the person's feeling , I don't know what their face is saying . Sometimes I might take it personally , sometimes I might think , oh , something's wrong Not necessarily . But just realize that when you are talking to someone , your face is talking to and what do you want your face to be communicating ? Just that simple awareness can go a long , long way . Austin says yes , I feel like I give RBF so often and maybe it's tied to my fear of being myself . Could be . So , rather than having a default facial expression of slight anger or annoyance toward the other person , consider how to use your face . The reason I'm saying this is that even if you say something kind and loving but your face is saying the opposite , it's not probably gonna lead to connection . If your eyes are going all over the place and your face is like a stone wall , it doesn't matter what you say . It's still not gonna fully create space for the connection that you want .

Speaker 1 12:43

My third point is to use your voice , even without words . Specifically , try out some vocal bursts in a conversation . If you have never heard the term vocal bursts before , then welcome to the club . You are just like me . Before I read the book Polyvagal Theory and Therapy . We are going to have an awesome episode on Porn and Polyvagal Theory later this month , which I'm very excited about . Until then , here is a little preview from the book . This book by Deb Dana gives so many great insights and tips on creating connection between people . I'm going to read an excerpt from her book about connecting through vocal bursts . She writes the voice communicates a wealth of information .

The Power of Vocal Bursts

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Vocal bursts are the common sounds that populate our speech and convey emotion without words . Involuntary groans and sighs and voluntary expressions such as Ah , mmm , oh and huff are examples of vocal bursts . It's like mmm , that's a groan , that's a sigh Huff , that's another vocal burst . Research shows that when hearing a vocal burst , the listener picks up the speaker's emotion correctly , with a high degree of accuracy , and that vocal bursts are understood across languages and across species . There are at least 14 emotional states that the human voice can communicate without words . I want to repeat that there are at least 14 emotional states that the human voice can communicate without words .

Speaker 1 14:44

So when you're in a conversation with somebody , you don't always have to interrupt with words to increase the sense of connection . You can use vocal bursts to show that you're really present , that you're listening , that you're following . Hmm , or oh . I often use nonverbal communication to show that I'm with somebody , like pumping my fist in the air or saying yeah , or like hmm , hmm , oh , aha , ho , ho , ho , ho , ho , ho . I'm just making stuff up now , but the point is there is so much emotion that you can share with somebody even without words , using your eyes , your face and your voice . So , wherever you are right now , hey , just try out a little vocal burst Like hmm , you know , what do you think that emotion is ? Or like , oh , you know , each of these has a little nuance to it and you don't have to think about it too hard , just try it out . I love this last line from Deb Dana .

Speaker 1 15:57

She also writes it is not uncommon for therapists to have moments of not knowing what to say or to worry they will say the wrong thing . If , when at a loss for words , you offer a vocal burst , it is highly likely that your client will receive your emotional intention . She says vocal bursts are common in our everyday speech , communicating both autonomic and emotional tone . Bring attention to these non-language cues of safety and danger that are automatically received and can be intentionally sent . Automatically received . They affect us even if we don't realize it . We can choose to use them for love , for kindness , for connection .

Speaker 1 16:44

In any conversation , if you don't know what to say or the person's going on and on and you just want to show that you're with them , try a vocal burst . When I first read that , it blew my mind . I started using vocal bursts all the time . They're really helpful . They help to create connection . All right , let me give you some examples . So if somebody tells me that he was just sitting in traffic for three hours , I might go ugh . You can see what my face does . You can hear what my voice does that communicates . I'm with you in the drudgery and the frustration , or if someone is saying that they had a really hard day here , my voice kind of went down there . That descending tone communicates sadness and ascending tone , going up , would communicate excitement . So we've talked about three ways that you can check up on your nonverbal communication Use your eyes , use your face , use your voice and finally , use your words .

Speaker 1 18:02

This is the part that I have been teaching my clients more than ever , because it's just not normal or natural to use your words in the way I'm going to show you . We don't naturally gravitate towards empathy or active listening or attunement . I am discovering more and more that what might come natural to some of us does not come natural to others , and we need training wheels . So now I'm going to give you some training wheels that I literally want you to try using in a conversation With a friend you want to get to know better , with a romantic partner or spouse , with somebody at your job . Maybe some of you're trying to help literally use these words . Okay , these phrases are wonderful . Again , without using your eyes , face and voice to support these words , they probably won't stick , and you also have to actually listen to somebody in order to earn the right to use these words . I'm going to give you the exact phrases that I use .

Speaker 1 19:15

Here is the first and probably most useful phrase that you can use to create connection Tell me more . Three little words Tell me more . You might modify it to say can you tell me more ? Or tell me more about that . Whenever someone is talking to you , if you answer by saying tell me more , you might not even have heard what they just said , but you're communicating that you're not itching to speak yourself and that you haven't just been waiting to give your answer or your reply to what they're saying . You really want to understand . You're showing that you want to get into their world . You want to take their perspective . You're not just here to give advice or to fix or to force something . You're welcoming whatever they're telling you at a deeper level and oftentimes we don't always share the depths of how we're really feeling , what we're really thinking it takes that invitation to tell me more for us to feel a little bit more comfortable , to go deeper , to share something that we would have kept to ourselves . And when you say , tell me more , the person might not respond with more vulnerability , but if you don't give them this invitation , they have no chance . If you don't give them this invitation , you don't know what you're missing out on . There is so much treasure and gold in a conversation that is on the other side of a tell me more . Later on in this episode we're going to do some role-playing and try it out . So tell me more . Tell me more . Please use that . Let me know how it goes .

Building Connection Through Empathy and Understanding

Speaker 1 21:08

Next phrase to create connection is what's it like , for example , what's it like for you when I forget to let you know that I'm coming home late from work ? What's it like for you when I don't respond to your text message after two days ? What was it like for you to share your story and then be rejected ? What's it like for you to carry this secret ? What's it like , man ? I love that phrase . It's another way of saying tell me more , but targeting that for a specific area of life . What's it like for you when you show up to this live episode and you're not able to see anyone or hear anyone besides me ? What's it like for you to have so many significant friendships online and so few in person ? Here's another variation on that question how does that affect you With whatever somebody's sharing ? How does that affect you ? Tell me more . What's it like for you ? How does that affect you ? Those are some tried and true phrases . There's another one that I use a lot , especially when connecting the dots between our sexual brokenness and our specific story and our childhood experiences . That makes sense . Say that on Trigger Tuesday all the time . That makes sense .

Speaker 1 22:53

This phrase works best when you can follow it up with some reasons why . If you say that makes sense , you know . Okay . If you say that makes sense because of what you just shared about this other thing , or that makes sense because when you were a kid this was your reality , or that makes sense . That you're feeling afraid because I have violated your trust so many times , that makes sense . That you're not ready to forgive me because I haven't earned your trust , that makes sense . That you're not able to meet up because work has been so stressful lately . The more becausees you can add to that makes sense , the better . That one might take a little bit of a risk for you to be able to back it up . Why does that make sense ?

Speaker 1 23:53

Some other little phrases you can use are it sounds like dot , dot , dot and then you repeat or paraphrase what the person is saying . I hear you saying dot dot , dot . Of course , this phrase requires you to really be listening and to be able to repeat what the other person said with their word choice , as closely as you can get it to exactly what they said . That might sound simple , but it's not easy to say I hear you saying and then just repeat exactly what they said is connecting . It's helpful . You can also say it seems like when you're noticing someone's face or someone's voice or just the energy in a conversation , like , hey , it seems like your voice got really quiet there , or it seems like you started looking down when you talked about your dad . Something simple like that .

Speaker 1 24:47

A little non-judgemental observation , can go a long way . A phrase that I use a lot when I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the other person is it seems like something shifted I don't even know how to describe it , I might not even know like what's different or what exactly was the cue that let me know that this person is not doing well , or something is different between what they're saying and what their body is showing Something shifted . That one is really helpful . Finally , the last resort that can be very helpful when you don't really know what to say at all . Is that stood out to me ? So you can just refer back to something the person said and say that stood out to me . You don't even have to have a thought about it , you don't have to have a question , you don't have to have an observation , just mention that stood out to me and the person almost always has a reply . They might ask why . Most of the time they won't . That stood out to me is a great non-judgmental , easy-to-use response .

Speaker 1 26:10

These are some training wheels . I'm not saying that you need to look down at a list while you're talking to somebody , but just have some of these in the back of your mind . You can even make a little song using some of these phrases like Tell me more . Tell me more that makes sense . That makes sense . What's it like ? What's it like ? How does that affect you ? Something to help you remember in the moment to try out one of these phrases Use your eyes , use your face , use your voice and use your words and you will create space for connection .

Speaker 1 26:54

Matt is asking what if it doesn't make sense ? That's a great opportunity for you to say hey , can you tell me more about that Help me understand . I feel like I'm not fully getting it . Even that admission is humble and vulnerable and invites connection . Our assumption is that if we could understand the other person fully , if we could see their story most clearly , then it would make sense . So the question I'm asking myself a lot internally , when someone's telling me their story with sexual brokenness is okay , what makes this make sense ? The specific fantasy they're talking about , the specific arousal that continues to feel powerful , okay , what makes this make sense ? There's always a reason , there's always a story , usually a combination of stories , and our job is to be detectives , to be listeners , to be learners , and some of these responses can be helpful .

Speaker 1 27:59

Stanley says role play I'm having a bad day . Tell me more , stanley . What's it like for you when you have a bad day ? How does that affect you ? It sounds like you would like some advice about what to do when you're having a bad day , maybe not . I hear you saying that every once in a while you have a bad day . That stood out to me . See what I'm doing .

Speaker 1 28:26

John says what are some recommended phrases when feeling attacked ? To stay connected ? Man , exactly what I just told you guys is perfect when you feel attacked , but you don't want to get defensive . You want to be empathetic . You want to be really understanding the other person's perspective . You can say I hear you saying , or tell me more , or what's it like for you ? That will give you not only a chance to care for the other person even when you're feeling attacked by them . It'll also give you some cushion and maybe a little bit of breathing room before you maybe share how you're feeling or whatever you would like to say . It's probably going to be less charged up If you start out with some of these phrases , christian says .

Speaker 1 29:12

There are times when I think someone might not be interested in the conversation . What do I do in a situation like this , that kind of situation ? I would recommend using the language of parts . This is another great relational skill that can apply to any relationship friendship , dating , marriage , whatever . Here's what I would say in that kind of situation . Let's say it's with a friend . Hey man , I really enjoy our conversations and I appreciate your intentionality in continuing to get together . Part of me feels really excited to be telling you more about what I'm going through , and another part of me is feeling a little bit worried that maybe you might not be interested to hear more . Part of me is afraid to share that with you because of how people have responded to me in the past , and another part of me really wants to be brave and to be honest with you . So when you use that parts language , it is less aggressive , it's assertive , but it's not aggressive . It creates space for your feelings yet also doesn't impose them on the other person . So the script for that situation is part of me dot dot dot and another part of me dot dot dot . That's what I would do .

Speaker 1 30:44

Christian says love that Awesome , try it out , use it , let me know how it goes . Rick says what's an effective way to find connection ? When you may have little in common with an individual , but in a positive way you feel drawn to that person . In that kind of situation , whatever the person has communicated to you or whatever you know about the person , use that as a starting point . So if you know where they went to school , if you know where they grew up , if you know how old they are , if you know their relationship status , whatever you know about them , use some of these prompts like hey , tell me more about that , what's it like for you to be at your age . How does that affect you ? Simple questions , curiosity .

Speaker 1 31:32

When you use some of these tools , you might not feel connected to that person , but the odds are that person will probably feel more connected to you . You know , even if you're creating that space , the person might not have the skills or the desire to listen to you with curiosity and compassion . They may not be able or willing to go as deep or to become as close , and that's difficult . What you can do is choose how you want to relate to this person . Do you want to open up space for connection or do you need a little bit more protection ? And you know what . It's okay to choose protection over connection . You can't connect with everybody . In fact , that would be very unwise . We need to choose who is worthy of our connection and who we want to take the risk to be vulnerable with , and also who has not earned the right to receive our vulnerability . In most cases , I think with most people , protection is more important . However , connection is such a core need that we need to find at least a few close companions , especially on the journey about growing porn , and I believe what I've told you today is really going to help with that .

Speaker 1 33:14

Use your eyes , your face , your voice and your words See what happens . Austin says these are great tools , thank you . Michael says I can see how these will be effective . Stanley says how can I remember it every time ? I'm gonna put a summary in the show notes on this recording . Write them down , put them in your wallet , put them on your phone on a note , make a song . If you really make a song , share it with me . I want to hear that song . Doug says I appreciate these tips .

Speaker 1 33:44

Drew , now I need to read about polyvagal theory . Great phrases to use . Yes , polyvagal theory is profound and we have an episode later this month with John Kilmer about porn and polyvagal theory that you guys are really gonna like . It is a deep well of wisdom to draw from the polyvagal theory and therapy and I'll put the link to that in the show notes as well . You might consider writing some of these things down , maybe making a note using some of these tips about using your eyes , using your face , using your voice , using your words .

Speaker 1 34:21

Try out some of these phrases like tell me more . That makes sense . That stood out to me . What's it like for you ? How does that affect you ? Seems like something shifted and just notice how the other person responds . There is no formula to guarantee an outcome .

Speaker 1 34:43

There are always opportunities to grow as a listener , as someone who is becoming a safe container for others to share their story . That's what we're doing at Husband Material . We practice these things every week in HMA , at our coaching calls , at our community calls . Our job is to relate to each other with curiosity and compassion and some of these little tips are training wheels . There are tools for your toolbox . And if you would like some more tools for your toolbox to create deeper friendships with other men , get a deck of our Husband Material man cards . Go to getyourmancardscom and you can buy a deck of 52 questions that have been ranked in terms of their vulnerability , so the lower numbers are less vulnerable , the higher numbers are more vulnerable and these cards are really effective for helping men to open up and develop deeper friendships and create connection . Really helpful For couples . I would recommend Dear Young Married Couple card decks , which you can find at their website dearyoungmarriedcouplecom or in the links I'm going to put in the show notes

Building Emotional and Relational Skills

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Speaker 1 36:00

We are building a community where this type of connection is the norm , not the exception . We are learning to practice curiosity and compassion and courage , we are giving each other the emotional attunement that we did not get when we were little boys . A lot of times we turned to porn to satisfy those unmet needs that were not ultimately sexual but were deeper than that . Learning these emotional and relational skills is equipping us to be able to give and receive what we didn't get when we were boys . That's a beautiful thing . It's helping us grow up into sexually and emotionally mature men of God . I know this is not easy . It takes practice , no matter how strong or weak you feel . In this area of creating connection , always remember you are God's beloved Son and you is well-pleased .